The Self-Serving Verses of the Qur'an
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Regarding the Prohets wives, somone in this forum a while ago put forward the question of how strnge it is that he id not hve ny children after thee first wife Khadija nd whethr that did ot mean that those wives were ot such wiv but some kinnd of social ad religious partners. That is a point tht also has struck me often. Why he did not have any more children. Could be that he became sterile, but it also could be some other reason, may be political, quite understandable. People all through history have made peace agreements based on political marriages. May be also to give a respectable public image to somebody. In societies where political marriages are not only allowed but in fact promoted, to refusse onne may be in fact a slap o the face of the proposer.
Interesting. I did not know about how disrespectful it is to refuse a (political) marriage in some societies. I wonder sometimes about why he did not have children after his first wife too.
No woman would ever think of marrying a widow of the prophet. It is not said anywhere that they are mothers of the male believers only, so I do not think the meanainng you give it is the right one or has anything to do with it.
Women believers are no less daughters of the wives of the Prophet than male believers. And I do not think the wives were there to assist him like a Michelle and not doing anything else, as you describe. The wives of he prophet were independent women. They were bound to lead an exemplary life but not a dependent life (No wife of any prophet was mant to do that.) They were there by their choice of God and his Prophet, just like all the believers, and the fact that they were not to marry afterwards might have been by the very simple and obvious reason that, were it otherwise, there would have been very nasty fights for the "succession" of the prophet, whoever got his wife(ves) got the succession.
They were mothers of the believers not in order not marry any man afterwards, because then it would have said mothers of the male believers (beside, the non marriage after is already provided for in clear terms, not deviously, in another aya, so no need to double the injonction with such an n unclear device), but because of their choice of rennouncing worldly parading and money and choosing unworldly virtue and the giving up of luxury when after a life of poverty and struggle they could have indeed started to lead a life of luxury and appearances.
They were not serving a husband, they were serving God and his Prophet. This is very clearly stated in the Qur'an and not to be compared with Michelle Obama nor any other "first lady" nor confused with such figuring.
They were not "first ladies", they were believers and followers of God and his Prophet and asummed a very heavy duty of restrain when verybody else could live as they pleased as life got easier. They got double reward too by their Sustainer. They were not glorified servants of a husband but partners, or as has been handed down in muslim terminology, compannions, which, by the way, is indeed a very nice and warm term.
Bear in mind that it is clearly stated in the Qur'an that the Prophet is not a father of any personality nor is he by himself said to be the father of anybody, but on the other hand his wives are appointed by no less than God as mothers of the believers, the whole of all believers, no less. What does that say? What did they do that made them deservers of such a title, and what does it mean for each of us to be children of the wives of the prophet?
As far as I can ascertain, what it means is freedom of choice. Nothing was ever exacted from the wives of the Prophet except choose the life of this world or the life of the hereafter. They were not ordeered to smile to the people, nor to cook for the prophet, nor to look nice for th9 sake of the Prophet, nor to give a good image, nor to be subservient to him, nor to be deppendent of him. They were asked to choose the life of this world or the life of the hereafter. Those who wanted to leave the Prophet could do so with a good provision, those who stayed were to live thinking of the hereafter. Rennounce a life of glitter after having gone through a life of hardship.
They choose the hereafter, that is what it means to be children of the wives of the prophet, to choose the hereafter, not not to be able to marry any of them.
Salaam
bravo This makes sooooo much sense. I agree. Thank you.
my appology sister i did not notice it, may be due to your username, anyway peace and stay happy.
handshake
No problem brother. )
Does my username sound male? rotfl
I feel much better now, although I am still curious about 3327 and 2252-53. When 3327 is read with all its surrounding verses, it sounds like there is much war success and takeover of lands. I know obviously that those who were being fought weren't good people, but being as anti-war as I am it's hard to swallow that there was such a massive takeover of land in God's name as 3327 seems to imply.
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I agree. Thank you.
welcome sister
Does my username sound male? rotfl
no but its not female name either,lol hmm
I feel much better now, although I am still curious about 3327 and 2252-53. When 3327 is read with all its surrounding verses, it sounds like there is much war success and takeover of lands. I know obviously that those who were being fought weren't good people, but being as anti-war as I am it's hard to swallow that there was such a massive takeover of land in God's name as 3327 seems to imply.
when some body do curruption on land its the law of God to punish them and replace them with nice people, and moreover this land was also inherited to him and his tribe quresh and banuhashim . they take prophets rights from him, they started all this, our prophet just finsih it with a style,
i remeber i was reading the event of mekka conquring, when the biggest ever enemy abu suffiyan was under the sword of calpih omar, and clapih omer was about to kill him but muhammad spared his life,
and on another occassion of conquring mekka it was abu lahab, the muhammads uncle who also used to oppsose muhammad every sinngle time and he issued the order to kill muhammad as well, he was also capturred by muslim but he did not give up but he was shocked and embarrased, he was very proud no body even God can toucch him , but see what happened with him, a humilating defeat
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Nobody wants war but those who think that they ar goig to benefit by it. If sombody, without wanting it, is pushed into it. Once the war is won by those who did not want it, they still do not want it, but those who pushed for it in the first lace, might still ant it an push th winners into misery if they can. It is legitimte that those who do nto want war again take appropriate measures so that they ar enot pushed into another one.
Alo patience and digity have a limit. I know that i a war hell is loose and anything goes, usually, but some times there are peaces that are only o by name, and that in the society or te coutry in fact of pece there i only the name, the abuses and lawlessness ar just as bad as is there were war, only thing stay hung and there is nno forward nor backwards. There only so much of that tht4 ay peopple iss able to absorb.
Salaam
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yeh huruf thats why , sometimes war and personal ememity finish when you get into relationship,
see the the prophet wife ramla bint abu saffian was one of the great example, she was daughter of worst ever enemy of islam and at that time he was the commmanding leader of tribe quresh, and i think it was a positive approach to spread quran message through everybody.by peace not by sword.
peace
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welcome sister
no but its not female name either,lol hmm
when some body do curruption on land its the law of God to punish them and replace them with nice people, and moreover this land was also inherited to him and his tribe quresh and banuhashim . they take prophets rights from him, they started all this, our prophet just finsih it with a style,
i remeber i was reading the event of mekka conquring, when the biggest ever enemy abu suffiyan was under the sword of calpih omar, and clapih omer was about to kill him but muhammad spared his life,
and on another occassion of conquring mekka it was abu lahab, the muhammads uncle who also used to oppsose muhammad every sinngle time and he issued the order to kill muhammad as well, he was also capturred by muslim but he did not give up but he was shocked and embarrased, he was very proud no body even God can toucch him , but see what happened with him, a humilating defeat
That makes sense. Thank you.
Nobody wants war but those who think that they ar goig to benefit by it. If sombody, without wanting it, is pushed into it. Once the war is won by those who did not want it, they still do not want it, but those who pushed for it in the first lace, might still ant it an push th winners into misery if they can. It is legitimte that those who do nto want war again take appropriate measures so that they ar enot pushed into another one.
Alo patience and digity have a limit. I know that i a war hell is loose and anything goes, usually, but some times there are peaces that are only o by name, and that in the society or te coutry in fact of pece there i only the name, the abuses and lawlessness ar just as bad as is there were war, only thing stay hung and there is nno forward nor backwards. There only so much of that tht4 ay peopple iss able to absorb.
Salaam
This makes sense also. Thank you too.
Yes, that's true that people can only take so much. That's why there are revolutions. /
yeh huruf thats why , sometimes war and personal ememity finish when you get into relationship,
see the the prophet wife ramla bint abu saffian was one of the great example, she was daughter of worst ever enemy of islam and at that time he was the commmanding leader of tribe quresh, and i think it was a positive approach to spread quran message through everybody.by peace not by sword.
peace
Getting back to the political marriages topic I see.
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That makes sense. ) Thank you.
welcome
Getting back to the political marriages topic I see.
haha, not any more getting back to that topic,
actually now a days its common in people who are enemies from ages , but when they get married with eachother all the issues finish with both parties, sometimes , mistakes happen and people get killed in family matter, property matters, specially girls matters, so its quite helpful this way there will be no more blood shed in both parties, thats what my logic think , but everybody have diff thinking. but overall Allah wants us to live in peace and frdhship is better than enemity.
God bless you
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welcome
haha, not any more getting back to that topic,actually now a days its common in people who are enemies from ages , but when they get married with eachother all the issues finish with both parties, sometimes , mistakes happen and people get killed in family matter, property matters, specially girls matters, so its quite helpful this way there will be no more blood shed in both parties, thats what my logic think , but everybody have diff thinking. but overall Allah wants us to live in peace and frdhship is better than enemity.
God bless you
Where is this common?
And of course, as you said, peace is always what is wanted and what we should strive for.
4134 "Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend."
peace
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Where is this common?
And of course, as you said, peace is always what is wanted and what we should strive for.
4134 "Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend."
peace
red its common in third world countires where there is are lot of murders on the name of long lasting enemity tht goes from grandfather and continue untill the grandson murder, like pahkhtun in notrth western areas of paksitan , now they have strategy to get married with eacho other families and finish all this, its just a example , one of my frd had same case and now they are living happily.
some more verses
O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.
And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.
chap 3 verse 103
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.peace
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Right. group
yay
group back at you!
red its common in third world countires where there is are lot of murders on the name of long lasting enemity tht goes from grandfather and continue untill the grandson murder, like pahkhtun in notrth western areas of paksitan , now they have strategy to get married with eacho other families and finish all this, its just a example , one of my frd had same case and now they are living happily.
o Wow.
some more verses
O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.
And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.
chap 3 verse 103
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.peace
I was thinking about war and justice and violence today. I stumbled across some hateful anti-Islam posts on the Internet. It upset me and shook up my head. I hate violence, I really do. Then I go back and read these verses. I read the verses on peace. I read and remembered this verse
4149 "The human being does not tire in praying for good things. But if adversity touches him, he is disheartened, desperate!"
And all of a sudden I felt better. It reminds me that we are all responsible for ourselves as well as what we have done (or will do) for the world around us. We all should strive to get ourselves (and the world) out of bad situations. We have to shape ourselves.
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Yes, and we must not forget that this world will be over quickly and therefore the bad things of it if we attain toGod's Mercy will be like forgotten shadows, so tht all our questions s to its ill and suffering will also be a memory and a relief to see that they are no more sn tht nboody ill hve suffered in vain if they are grateful.
Salaam
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Assalamu Alaykum all,
Not sure if you have all ever heard of this before, but the Golden Ratio number in the Qur'an is mathematical proof of its astounding accuracy. Have you ever heard of this before?Based on mathematical correlations there is truly no possibility that any of these verses are misplaced. Just look at the math
This is the gist The Golden Ratio is the number 1.61803398...
this number is found all over nature and plays into the aesthetic aspects of beauty, from our faces and arm length, to the flowers and fresh pines we love to smell, all is aesthetically and mathematically placed as such.Onto the Qur'an which contains a total of 114 Surahs of varying lengths. Well if you add the Surah number like Al-Fatiah (1) and the number of verses in the surah (7) you will get 1 + 7 =8. 8 is the Surah Value. If you do this will all Surahs you will notice that some numbers repeat and some numbers do not.
Now, place all of the Surah values in an excel sheet and separate them in two columns, the ones with two or more of the same value and the ones with only one unique value. Now add all the numbers in each column.
You will get 7906 with the same value, and 4885 with a unique value. Do the math 7906/4885=1.61842375...This is an incredibly accurate book, not only morally, logically, linguistically, and practically, but also mathematically. Subhan'Allah.
I have copied here the Excel table I used to confirm these calculations. I urge others to do the same.
Verses Value Same Unique Total Same Total Unique Quranic Ratio Golden Ratio
1 7 8 73 8 7906 4885 1.61842375 1.61803398
2 286 288 73 56
3 200 203 77 62
4 176 180 77 65
5 120 125 80 66
6 165 171 80 67
7 206 213 82 74
8 75 83 82 75
9 129 138 83 78
10 109 119 83 81
11 123 134 88 85
12 111 123 88 86
13 43 56 95 90
14 52 66 95 93
15 99 114 95 97
16 128 144 100 98
17 111 128 100 99
18 110 128 101 104
19 98 117 101 112
20 135 155 102 117
21 112 133 102 121
22 78 100 102 122
23 118 141 103 123
24 64 88 103 126
25 77 102 103 127
26 227 253 106 130
27 93 120 106 132
28 88 116 106 134
29 69 98 106 138
30 60 90 106 141
31 34 65 107 144
32 30 62 107 152
33 73 106 107 155
34 54 88 109 171
35 45 80 109 180
36 83 119 110 203
37 182 219 110 213
38 88 126 110 219
39 75 114 110 253
40 85 125 110 288
41 54 95 111
42 53 95 111
43 89 132 111
44 59 103 113
45 37 82 113
46 35 81 113
47 38 85 114
48 29 77 114
49 18 67 114
50 45 95 114
51 60 111 114
52 49 101 115
53 62 115 115
54 55 109 115
55 78 133 115
56 96 152 116
57 29 86 116
58 22 80 116
59 24 83 118
60 13 73 118
61 14 75 119
62 11 73 119
63 11 74 119
64 18 82 119
65 12 77 120
66 12 78 120
67 30 97 120
68 52 120 125
69 52 121 125
70 44 114 125
71 28 99 128
72 28 100 128
73 20 93 133
74 56 130 133
75 40 115
76 31 107
77 50 127
78 40 118
79 46 125
80 42 122
81 29 110
82 19 101
83 36 119
84 25 109
85 22 107
86 17 103
87 19 106
88 26 114
89 30 119
90 20 110
91 15 106
92 21 113
93 11 104
94 8 102
95 8 103
96 19 115
97 5 102
98 8 106
99 8 107
100 11 111
101 11 112
102 8 110
103 3 106
104 9 113
105 5 110
106 4 110
107 7 114
108 3 111
109 6 115
110 3 113
111 5 116
112 4 116
113 5 118
114 6 120Again, I did not discover this, I am just passing along the information.
"And if you tried to count the favors of God , you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." - 1618 Golden Ratio Verse, as the Golden Ratio number is infinite; it can never be counted completely.
Salaam,
Clash
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Salam,
of course i am not talking about the free-minders, just saying...
Why are we always reading these verses with suspicion?? we have some verse and people all are always like "oh you see? you see? so Muhammad was "this" afterall!". We have some verse with no historical context, and we are supposing things and always ending up with the idea that Muhammad was allowed this and that. God wanted the Quran to be preserved with no historical context.
For example about Zayd. They say the prophet wanted Zayd's ex wife so Allah gave her to him. What is that, brothers? You know? that's the point why many women in the world don't accept Qur'an although they would believe in it. Stop.
We don't have the context. We don't know what happened in those concrete moments, and if God did not explain the context Himself in the Book is because
- It is not important
- Don't mess it up with hadiths, guys
- God might be testing exactly this how suspicious we are about His Book when we read it.
I have many theories for these verse, but the most I read the most I realize that God is actually making Muhammad to sacrifice No matter what he tries, HE IS NOT GOING TO HAVE DESCENDANTS. Muhammad's offspring ruling the religion is not in God's plan and God knows how importat lineage is for human beings. Islam won't be a lineage, it's a system for humanity. Muhammad won't have progeny and God cuts it off in every single way.
At some point I think the prohet thought of Zayd like the only thing he would have as a son in this life. After all he was a human being, he would have thought of him like a real son. Now God makes the prophet marry Zayd's ex wife. Nowhere it is said that Muhammad wanted her (what prophet is this lusting every single skirt who passed by him???). In those years this divine order would have mean clearly HE IS NOT YOUR SON SINCE YOU ARE GOING TO MARRY HIS EX WIFE. This is the strongest and loudest NO i have ever heard. No one is hurt but Muhammad himself.
The whole ummah back then and Humanity afterwards will know that Muhammad was not to leave a lineage. That's the point. The same about his other wifes.
Why do we have to read it like Muhammad wants the girl, God gives the girl. What God and what Prophet are these? Why can't we read it in other way attending to the fact that we have not the context, with a clean mind and keeping in mind that he is "the Compassive" and women were not objects for gift to any prophet, not back then and not today.
I am sure Muhammad should have had to struggle with this fact. A lot. Wasn't he a human being? God never tested His prophets? Of course God was testing Muhammad too!!! Maybe God tests His prophets more than He tests the rest of us.
Qur'an was written for women too. Why do we read it otherwise?
Huruf, sister, your post was inspiring as always.
Salam!
have an inspiring Friday!
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It is a good insight, virginia. On the hother hand there was Fatma, and although the Qur'an did not push for a hereditary thing nd she died young and did not seem to be anything but very pious and alien to worldly ambitions, her husband and children were indeed involved in some power struggle seemingly unwillingly. However, I do think that had there been a male descendant things would have been much, much worse and may be history much much worse too.
There is a lot of things that would seem symptomatic of a will to divest the world of much of the arbitrary male power in the world and the Qur'an also points that way. However the inability of humas to walk that walk seems to hve trumped, till now, any measures in that direction.
Salaam
In that sense
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Salam,
of course i am not talking about the free-minders, just saying...
Why are we always reading these verses with suspicion?? we have some verse and people all are always like "oh you see? you see? so Muhammad was "this" afterall!". We have some verse with no historical context, and we are supposing things and always ending up with the idea that Muhammad was allowed this and that. God wanted the Quran to be preserved with no historical context.
I can only speak for myself, but I think we read certain verses with suspicion because for some, when taken individually, verses can sound like they're for Muhammad's own gain. There were some great responses and explanations in this thread that I am thankful for. group
Other verses sound really ambiguous, or like they are meant for a certain people. The verse about Zayd is very specific to the prophet. We don't have a prophet now. We don't know who Zayd is. It is clear that that verse was addressed to a certain person at a certain time. Many people are naturally curious, and they'll want to know what the historical context is, if there's any, that's behind the verse. You may not care who Zayd is or his wife and their relationship with Muhammad, and that's fine, but I do.
For those of us who were brought up in traditional Muslim households, or even for those of us who are converts, we've all been introduced to hadith at one point. When we're not being careful, or aware of which information comes from which source, we can mix up or incorporate hadith information with the Qur'an, either knowingly or unknowingly.
There's also a lot of anti-Islam/anti-Qur'an information on the Internet. It can be difficult to ignore, especially on social media where people love to attack religion in the comment sections. Personally, I don't want to ignore it if it's new criticism that I haven't thought about before. I believe I'm a pretty skeptical person. I'd rather embrace the criticism, and think about it, and work it over in my mind until I come to a satisfactory answer to the criticism. (If I can't, I post it here to debate it with you all. ;D) This way I'm not harboring doubts and allowing them to grow. I can't live with that kind of blind faith. I want to be firm.
There's also the commonly quoted hadith with Ayisha reporting to Muhammad, "My Lord hastens in fulfilling your desires" or something along those lines. When originally writing up this thread, that hadith was difficult to forget, even though I don't believe in hadith.
I guess for me I occasionally entertain the thought of "what if we're wrong?" and I know I've seen threads on here that have shared the same concerns. It's hard for me to accept that there are things we don't know at all about whoever brought the physical message of the Qur'an. I just want to know! Where did they live? What kind of person were they really? What did they do in their free time? Etc. But eventually I have to come to terms with and accept the fact that I don't know everything, and I won't know everything about the prophet, and I never will. giveup
For example about Zayd. They say the prophet wanted Zayd's ex wife so Allah gave her to him. What is that, brothers? You know? that's the point why many women in the world don't accept Qur'an although they would believe in it. Stop.
We don't have the context. We don't know what happened in those concrete moments, and if God did not explain the context Himself in the Book is because
- It is not important
- Don't mess it up with hadiths, guys
- God might be testing exactly this how suspicious we are about His Book when we read it.
I have many theories for these verse, but the most I read the most I realize that God is actually making Muhammad to sacrifice No matter what he tries, HE IS NOT GOING TO HAVE DESCENDANTS. Muhammad's offspring ruling the religion is not in God's plan and God knows how importat lineage is for human beings. Islam won't be a lineage, it's a system for humanity. Muhammad won't have progeny and God cuts it off in every single way.
At some point I think the prohet thought of Zayd like the only thing he would have as a son in this life. After all he was a human being, he would have thought of him like a real son. Now God makes the prophet marry Zayd's ex wife. Nowhere it is said that Muhammad wanted her (what prophet is this lusting every single skirt who passed by him???). In those years this divine order would have mean clearly HE IS NOT YOUR SON SINCE YOU ARE GOING TO MARRY HIS EX WIFE. This is the strongest and loudest NO i have ever heard. No one is hurt but Muhammad himself.
The whole ummah back then and Humanity afterwards will know that Muhammad was not to leave a lineage. That's the point. The same about his other wifes.
Why do we have to read it like Muhammad wants the girl, God gives the girl. What God and what Prophet are these? Why can't we read it in other way attending to the fact that we have not the context, with a clean mind and keeping in mind that he is "the Compassive" and women were not objects for gift to any prophet, not back then and not today.
I am sure Muhammad should have had to struggle with this fact. A lot. Wasn't he a human being? God never tested His prophets? Of course God was testing Muhammad too!!! Maybe God tests His prophets more than He tests the rest of us.
Qur'an was written for women too. Why do we read it otherwise?
Huruf, sister, your post was inspiring as always.
Salam!
have an inspiring Friday!
Good rest of your post, I liked it.
Peace!
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Salam, Comrox
Other verses sound really ambiguous, or like they are meant for a certain people.
You said it "like they are meant..." The thing is that they are in the Qur'an. 1400 years later those verses are in the Qur'an and they were meant to be read by us too. That's my point. God wouldn't spare in His last Revelation to Humanity some verses to Muhammad and just Muhammad. Surely He would not spare verses for the satisfaction of Muhammad's taste in women!!!
The verse about Zayd is very specific to the prophet. We don't have a prophet now. We don't know who Zayd is. It is clear that that verse was addressed to a certain person at a certain time. Many people are naturally curious, and they'll want to know what the historical context is, if there's any, that's behind the verse. You may not care who Zayd is or his wife and their relationship with Muhammad, and that's fine, but I do.
God did not want us to have this background. The Qur'an is clear and explains itself. Let's cut the trees that don't let us see it clear.
I understand the curiosity, it starts everything, good and bad, and all of us are here because at some point we were curious, in the good sense.
There is no background here, nor in the other self-serving verses. Qur'an tells that you don't need the historical background, Qur'an says you that God is Justice and Merciful. We have to think a little more because obviously hadiths don't make sense with the rest of the Kitab. They stain the Book! They infect even the verses about the Paradise symbolism and gives us a god whose reward is sex and terrenal pleasures in Paradise! Come on! I don't know you, but if I am coming to Paradise (May God gorfive my all sins and my bad character and my wrongdoings) where I am coming by the hand of my last husband (becasue everything in hadiths is gentlemen first ) to see him have fun with a dozen sex "spiritual" or whatever companions but... oh women of the tradition, it is ok, you will be fine, it is Paradiseeee... i'd rather go to hell! Not because of jelousy but because of unjustice.
Their Muhammad and the Muhammad in the Qur'an can not be the same person, neither any of the sayings of Muhammad (counting good and bad deeds to have a final count to see if you go into Paradise or not, I am sure this was an accountant who made this hadith up trying to make a new product to launch to the market). Anyway I am trying hard to stay in the subject, not an anti hadith post here, sorry.For those of us who were brought up in traditional Muslim households, or even for those of us who are converts, we've all been introduced to hadith at one point. When we're not being careful, or aware of which information comes from which source, we can mix up or incorporate hadith information with the Qur'an, either knowingly or unknowingly.
Maybe that is the point, I was not raised in a Muslim home, so I can only see the bad point of the hadith traditions. Since I have a personal issue with these traditions, I really can not see their "good" side. I started with only Qur'an. And yes, sometimes I found a hadith or tradition about, and every single time this hadith or tradition was making me feel the most miserable person in the world.
There's also a lot of anti-Islam/anti-Qur'an information on the Internet. It can be difficult to ignore, especially on social media where people love to attack religion in the comment sections. Personally, I don't want to ignore it if it's new criticism that I haven't thought about before. I believe I'm a pretty skeptical person. I'd rather embrace the criticism, and think about it, and work it over in my mind until I come to a satisfactory answer to the criticism. (If I can't, I post it here to debate it with you all. ;D) This way I'm not harboring doubts and allowing them to grow. I can't live with that kind of blind faith. I want to be firm.
I would say there is a lot of anti sunna view of the Quran, and given this, as you say, I find those sites even logical! Looking at tradition from the eyes of a western woman, for example, this criticism has to be done, it is logical and it is even necessary.
Anyway, may God guide us, sister, guide and give us the light we need to be able to read it as it has to be read, as free, independent and strong women of the XXI century, because the Qur'an was written for us too.
I use to talk about "making justice to Muhammad". We can make it, we can escape and look at him as he is given in the Qur'an. He was a good man who followed and recited the Qur'an, he sacrificed his wellbeing too fulfill God's mission for him, and if you read it properly, you will see that there are not favours to him in the Quran, but exactly the opposite he is sacrifiying even more. He was really a muslim, he submitted in all senses. This man and the Muhammad of the hadiths are not the same. And here it comes the greatest sacrifice of Muhammad after his life he became a worshipped idol himself. He gave it all, even this. He gave even his afterlife reputation and status. Did he understand at some point in his life, watching at his people, that this would happen? I think he did, he was really intelligent. I think he doubted, I think at many moments he was scared to death. I am sure he even actually heard traditions/lies/misunderstandings about himself. And he kept doing his job. I don't think any other man would have done so.So, he deserves some justice. And it will be done when any single human being who's seeking the truth and reading the Qur'an will see a Muhammad who is far away from a womanizer, a pederast, a "let's lapidate" defender to whom the Book of God is making favours!!!
There's also the commonly quoted hadith with Ayisha reporting to Muhammad, "My Lord hastens in fulfilling your desires" or something along those lines. When originally writing up this thread, that hadith was difficult to forget, even though I don't believe in hadith.
I won't talk about Aisha. This fictional character takes out the worst of me, really brickwall
I guess for me I occasionally entertain the thought of "what if we're wrong?" and I know I've seen threads on here that have shared the same concerns. It's hard for me to accept that there are things we don't know at all about whoever brought the physical message of the Qur'an. I just want to know! Where did they live? What kind of person were they really? What did they do in their free time? Etc. But eventually I have to come to terms with and accept the fact that I don't know everything, and I won't know everything about the prophet, and I never will. giveup
We all are curious. God wanted us to research better or God is just telling us it is not important. Anyway, you see? When He says he is going to preserve the Book? He made it! And it is one of the reasons why we have the Qur'an alone, with no historical context in it, he is telling us to stay free and don't confuse them.
Good rest of your post, I liked it.
Anyway and in any case, how can we know that these so called self serving verses are addressed to Muhammad? Everythime the Quran says "Oh Prophet" is that for Muhammad?
I want so badly to read free women hypothesis about the self serving verses... please post if you have, or email me or whateveeeeer!!
Have a great day!
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When God considered appropriate to reveal some verses to tell the prophet to tell his mates to not giver rise to problems for him as a messenger, it says it all.
The prophet, even in cuestions pertaining to his missionn as messenger, did not seem too ready or willing to oppose his mates, and God then intervenes to set things clearly for them only in so far as his missionn as messenger is concerned not as a particular man. Which goes to show that, as a male mate, God does not intend to favour him or any other male, but that as a messenger he must be followed even if you ar a mate of his.
As to Zayd, I guess it is one of those quandaries which happen in life I think to all of us where we must choose between conflicting principles or feelings of rectitude or loyalty, things where we may see very clearly whe it touches somebody else, but not whe it touches us. As the red Indian saying goes, don't judge anybody before you have walked so many miles in her shoes.
That kind of thing is obnoxious. May be the teaching of the zayd ayas or one of the teachings is to know that we have to stop somewhere when we want that absolutely everything be clear for us because if not there is a pea under our mattress.
I confess that of the question about Zayd or zayd, I do not get a clear picture of any particular situation, though I may imagine some, but also I do not care. I mean, has God lied to me over and over in the Qur'an and therefore I am suspicious? No. I do not think I have been lied to but think that the Qur'an as a whole is very truthful and does not pander to whims nor prejudice nor pollitical correctness nor to peas under the mattresses; that it defies marketing speach and speaks to me as a sincere person and as a personn capable of accepting REALITY as it is, without sugar added.
I already know beforehand that I amnot allpowerful (it is so obvious) nor allknowing, so what if I cannot explain absolutely everything of what is said in the Qur'an? Nohting, I don't loose breath nor hunger nor any of the things that make me a rather satisfied person.
May be one day unexpectedly something will tell me the "mystery" of the zayd passage. Great. It has hapenned many times with themes of the Qur'an, that suddenly through this or that person, some of those times here in this forum, I have read something that has made the light on some of the "misteries" the Qur'an, many of them conrived by the very people.
However it may be, The overall feeling of relief left by the Qur'an in the mind and the feelings is, for me, the overriding matter. EXISTENCE MAKES SENSE and I and all and everything are part of it.
Salaam
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EXISTENCE MAKES SENSE and I and all and everything are part of it.
Yes, yes! And the word for existence (Being) is Allah by the very word alone. Allah means being.
And your creator is called Rabb in Arabic and is an esoteric symbiotic phenomenon you are part of. By that, Rabb encompasses more (are greater) than you since every being is a conscious or unconscious mind within, you can only steer in consensus depending on the realization (growth) of your person which determines whether you are conscious or not.
Be well
Amenuel -
For example about Zayd. They say the prophet wanted Zayd's ex wife so Allah gave her to him. What is that, brothers? You know? that's the point why many women in the world don't accept Qur'an although they would believe in it. Stop.
We don't have the context. We don't know what happened in those concrete moments, and if God did not explain the context Himself in the Book is because
- It is not important
- Don't mess it up with hadiths, guys
- God might be testing exactly this how suspicious we are about His Book when we read it.
I have many theories for these verse, but the most I read the most I realize that God is actually making Muhammad to sacrifice No matter what he tries, HE IS NOT GOING TO HAVE DESCENDANTS. Muhammad's offspring ruling the religion is not in God's plan and God knows how importat lineage is for human beings. Islam won't be a lineage, it's a system for humanity. Muhammad won't have progeny and God cuts it off in every single way.
At some point I think the prohet thought of Zayd like the only thing he would have as a son in this life. After all he was a human being, he would have thought of him like a real son. Now God makes the prophet marry Zayd's ex wife. Nowhere it is said that Muhammad wanted her (what prophet is this lusting every single skirt who passed by him???). In those years this divine order would have mean clearly HE IS NOT YOUR SON SINCE YOU ARE GOING TO MARRY HIS EX WIFE. This is the strongest and loudest NO i have ever heard. No one is hurt but Muhammad himself.
The whole ummah back then and Humanity afterwards will know that Muhammad was not to leave a lineage. That's the point. The same about his other wifes.
Why do we have to read it like Muhammad wants the girl, God gives the girl. What God and what Prophet are these? Why can't we read it in other way attending to the fact that we have not the context, with a clean mind and keeping in mind that he is "the Compassive" and women were not objects for gift to any prophet, not back then and not today.
I am sure Muhammad should have had to struggle with this fact. A lot. Wasn't he a human being? God never tested His prophets? Of course God was testing Muhammad too!!! Maybe God tests His prophets more than He tests the rest of us.
There are two different instructions, one for the Messenger and his people who Believes - 3337; and the other for the Prophet himself - 3338.
Nowhere in that verse mentioned the Prophet was instructed to marry Zaid's X!
If you read further verse 3338, it explicitly mentioned the Prophet and with that verse you will have to cross reference with 3350, which again explicitly shows who were the women that the Prophet could marry and who were the women the believers could marry.
Further in 3340 mentioned that the Prophet was not "the father any of your men" indication he NEVER made any men his sons, biological or not!
peace
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Peace Comrox,
The quran gives us a methodology to determine the truth, and this quranic methodology can be used to verify the truth of the quran itself (4153). The complete quranic methodology is using inner compass/conscience (3030), using mind/reason (numerous verses), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153). You can apply this to any verse to determine if it is the truth, and if any verse fails to pass this verification methodology, it can be safely rejected as falsehood. Similarly, you can apply this methodology to any statement you come across in your life, of any origin, to determine its truth.
I am curious as to which verses out of your initial quoted verses are still troubling you, after the discussions with other posters. I will appreciate if you can post a fresh list of verses you are still not clear about.
I have been studying the quran in depth for more than 10 years now. I also used to have a lot of verses that troubled me but slowly I was able to whittle them down using the above mentioned methodology. However, there still are quite a few verses that I find troubling and which do not make any sense to me even after years of study, research and trying to understand them and discussing them with brilliant and extremely learned people on this forum and elsewhere. Since I have been unable to verify their truth after applying the quranic methodology, I am left with no option but to consider the possibility that some falsehoods might have crept into the current text of the quran (as opposed to the original text of al-quran). Some of those verses are in common with your list, viz. 3350, 3351 and 3333.
The prophet should have the same rights and privileges as any other human because he is supposed to be an example for other humans. Why does his list of women to be allowed for marriage per 3350 be different from that for any other human being? "privilege given only to you and not to the believers". This is discrimination.
3351 seems misogynous, unfair and discriminatory against women. No wife deserves such a treatment.
3333 seems misogynous, unfair and discriminatory against women. Is going out of home not virtuous? Men can go out of home but women should stay in?
Don't make any sense coming from a fair, just and wise infinite Creator.
Peace