Regarding virgin births and Jesus (and Adam).
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Salaam Tay, All
Now the response to the Evolution story,
I have yet to see an example of this. Any thoughts I've read on the matter have always been well argued. Please provide an example of this blind justification.
I was sharing my feeling that the people who are trying to reconcile the Adam story with evolution are trying too hard to make it fit. It does not fit as beautifully in my eyes.
That is the nature of science, and the beauty of it. Science is always flexible and open to new ideas. Even when science is wrong, it opens doors. When Freud published his theories on dreams, it was a blasphemy, then it was psychological doctrine, now it is hardly agreed upon. But in this process, we have made leaps in understanding the human mind.
The alternative is to remain stagnant. It is to say, the world is what it is because God said so. If all of man followed this path, how far would we have gotten?
If people didn't question the ancient dogma of creationism, we never would have discovered DNA, nor human anatomy, nor weather patterns, geology, astronomy, psychology, etc. The greatest thinkers have always been those who challenged the official party line, despite the apparent consequences.
And because of their courageousness, humanity has benefitted. You and I are now communicating because of this.
I agree totally with you. I really did not dispute that science should not advance. I just think that Scientific theory and the Qur'an should not mix, until the theory becomes fact. I feel that science should be allowed to develop independently of what the Qur'an says. But ONLY when the facts are completely established that we should go to the Qura'an and see what it actually says. Otherwise, we will make the same mistakes that traditionalists made before us.
The best appraoch is the objective approach. Weighing all the evidence, from within the Qur'an, and from without, is not hasty, nor short sighted. It is an objective approach, one which is in fact encouraged within the Qur'an itself. (1736)
I like that too. You have a good way with words.
Salaam
hussein
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I already did. Here it is again
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Explosion
radiation of animal phyla started much earlier, from about 570 MYA, 30 million years before the beginning of the Cambrian geologic period. In 1994, triploblastic animals (organisms with more than two layers, and who therefore rely on internal organs and systems for their cells' supplies of food and waste disposal), were discovered preserved as phosphatized embryos in rocks from southern China . These fossils were estimated to be 570 million years of age and thus were even older than the Ediacaran fauna found in strata about 10 million years younger.Khi- Thanx 4 the site.
Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind. I believe an objective approach is always best. As Zenje often says, we see what we want to see.
Peace,
TayKhi- This may be true in most cases. However i want 2 see the truth n i can clearly see tht the evolutionists have done enoigh fraud through the ages like piltdown man, half ape half human imaginary drawings, caelocanth, etc n this shows we cant really trust them. Anyways Intelligent Design is becoming more porpular day by day n the irreducible complexity of life indicates tht gradual evolution by random mutatiuons through natural selection is utterly impossible. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
idmkhizar, may I ask what's the purpose of your enthusiasm against the theory of evolution? Is it to be used as another tool to say how bad westerns are?
Khi- U cant put all westeners in the same pot 4 there r many scientists who have given up this false theory of evolution e.g Dr. Gary Parker(http//www.trueorigin.org/dawkinfo.asp). So it is definitely not 2 be used as a tool 2 remark how bad all westeners. But the theory of evolution as orginally founded by Darwin, based on random mutations n natural selection, is clearly false. GOD Bless!
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SALAAMUN IDRIS
Here's an update of Dhul's understanding
According to the following ayats, Jesus, had to have had a father.
104 To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance, then He reproduces it....
3511 And Allah created you of dust, then of the life-germ, then He made you pairs; and no female bears, nor does she bring forth, except with His knowledge; and no one whose life is lengthened has his life lengthened, nor is aught diminished of one's life, but it is all in a book; surely this is easy to Allah.
5149 And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.
5345 And that He created pairs, the male and the female
788 And We created you in pairs,
225 O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.
2314 Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.
4067 He it is Who created you from dust, then from a small lifegerm, then from a clot, then He brings you forth as a child, then that you may attain your maturity, then that you may be old-- and of you there are some who are caused to die before-- and that you may reach an appointed term, and that you may understand.
7538 Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.
962 He created man from a clot.
Main Entry SEMEN/SEED a viscid whitish fluid of the male reproductive tract consisting of spermatozoa suspended in secretions of accessory glands.
Main EntrySEED semen.
Conclusion Given the above ayats and definitions, it is clear that, Jesus, being a human being, was once a clot , the product of pairing--a male and a female, hence, Jesus, had to have had a father.
4211 The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
This ayat syas that, Allah, makes for everything its mate/pair and this is the means by which humans multiply/reproduce. You will further notice that He makes no exception to this.
Let's continue
1922 So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.
- Fahamalat-hu faintabathat bihi makanan qasiyyan
In this ayat, Maryam, conceives
Main Entry CONCEPTION the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both.
7189 He it is Who created you from a single being, and of the same (kind) did He make his mate, that he might incline to her; so when he covers her she bears a light burden, then moves about with it; but when it grows heavy, they both call upon Allah, their Lord If Thou givest us a good one, we shall certainly be of the grateful ones.
- Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskuna ilayha falamma taghashshaha hamalat hamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalat daAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytana salihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena.
The Arabic word, hamalat, means to conceive, that is, the union of male sperm and female egg, thus, forming in due course--alaq/clot.
In 7189, Allah describes beautifully the reproduction process
-
He first creates a pair or mates.
-
He then makes the male incline towards the female, meaning, to find her attractive for companionship amd mating.
-
The male and female them physically join and a light burden is given the female, that is, sperm and soon a clot.
Let's continue
685 And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;
686 And Ismail and Al-Yasha and Yunus and Lut; and every one We made to excel (in) the worlds
687 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren, and We chose them and guided them into the right way.
1338 And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an apostle to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.
The above ayats establish two things. Isa/Jesus, as with the other mentioner prophets and messengers, had
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a father.
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wife and descendents, which means, that Isa/Jesus, could not have died on the cross.
Finally, Allah, Almighy God, cannot have children, because
6101 Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no mate, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.
4211 The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
Ayat 6101, further establishes, contrary to the Christian and Muslim notion that, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD/ALMIGHTY GOD CAN DO ANYTHING, is simply not true. Allah, Almighty God says Himself that, He CANNOT have a child, because He has no MATE!.
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Peace Hussein,
I part with you on this issue in peace. I thank you for this dialogue. It enriched me and I hope that it did to you the same.
Thank you, and you're welcome. Debate is a tool for refining understanding, and it's always a bonus to enter and exit a topic respectfully and peacefully.
I was sharing my feeling that the people who are trying to reconcile the Adam story with evolution are trying too hard to make it fit. It does not fit as beautifully in my eyes.
But the same can be said of those who reconcile the Adam story with the Judeo-Christian view. Any time one approaches a resource with the goal of finding evidence to support a preconception, it will certainly be tainted with bias. This rule applies to evolution and creationism. I'm willing to bet that if one approached the Qur'an looking for evidence of Adam being an alien, a strong case can be built.
So what do we do to resolve this?
I just think that Scientific theory and the Qur'an should not mix, until the theory becomes fact.
Hussein, there are very few theories that have ever evolved to fact. We know gravity exists but we can't describe or place the gravitational field. We know electricity exists but we cannot describe or place the electrical field. We know electrons exist, but we can't even describe their shape.
I feel that science should be allowed to develop independently of what the Qur'an says. But ONLY when the facts are completely established that we should go to the Qura'an and see what it actually says.
I completely disagree. So long as we keep methods isolated from each other, the big picture never comes into focus. It's like saying, don't learn to read until you've mastered mathematics. Science and spirituality are 2 sides of the same coin. Too much attention to one causes imbalance and hence, am imbalanced view.
Otherwise, we will make the same mistakes that traditionalists made before us.
I think the mistakes of the traditionalists was that they did not employ balance in their understandings. Heck, there are still traditionalists that think the Earth is flat! Traditionalists did not build on understanding, they accepted what they were spoon-fed.
Peace,
Tay -
peace be upon you priest,
SALAAMUN IDRIS
Here's an update of Dhul's understanding
According to the following ayats, Jesus, had to have had a father.
104 To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance, then He reproduces it....
3511 And Allah created you of dust, then of the life-germ, then He made you pairs; and no female bears, nor does she bring forth, except with His knowledge; and no one whose life is lengthened has his life lengthened, nor is aught diminished of one's life, but it is all in a book; surely this is easy to Allah.
5149 And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.
5345 And that He created pairs, the male and the female
788 And We created you in pairs,
225 O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.
2314 Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.
4067 He it is Who created you from dust, then from a small lifegerm, then from a clot, then He brings you forth as a child, then that you may attain your maturity, then that you may be old-- and of you there are some who are caused to die before-- and that you may reach an appointed term, and that you may understand.
7538 Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.
962 He created man from a clot.
Main Entry SEMEN/SEED a viscid whitish fluid of the male reproductive tract consisting of spermatozoa suspended in secretions of accessory glands.
Main EntrySEED semen.
Conclusion Given the above ayats and definitions, it is clear that, Jesus, being a human being, was once a clot , the product of pairing--a male and a female, hence, Jesus, had to have had a father.
4211 The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
This ayat syas that, Allah, makes for everything its mate/pair and this is the means by which humans multiply/reproduce. You will further notice that He makes no exception to this.
Let's continue
1922 So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.
- Fahamalat-hu faintabathat bihi makanan qasiyyan
In this ayat, Maryam, conceives
Main Entry CONCEPTION the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both.
7189 He it is Who created you from a single being, and of the same (kind) did He make his mate, that he might incline to her; so when he covers her she bears a light burden, then moves about with it; but when it grows heavy, they both call upon Allah, their Lord If Thou givest us a good one, we shall certainly be of the grateful ones.
- Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskuna ilayha falamma taghashshaha hamalat hamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalat daAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytana salihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena.
The Arabic word, hamalat, means to conceive, that is, the union of male sperm and female egg, thus, forming in due course--alaq/clot.
In 7189, Allah describes beautifully the reproduction process
-
He first creates a pair or mates.
-
He then makes the male incline towards the female, meaning, to find her attractive for companionship amd mating.
-
The male and female them physically join and a light burden is given the female, that is, sperm and soon a clot.
Let's continue
685 And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;
686 And Ismail and Al-Yasha and Yunus and Lut; and every one We made to excel (in) the worlds
687 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren, and We chose them and guided them into the right way.
1338 And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an apostle to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.
The above ayats establish two things. Isa/Jesus, as with the other mentioner prophets and messengers, had
-
a father.
-
wife and descendents, which means, that Isa/Jesus, could not have died on the cross.
Finally, Allah, Almighy God, cannot have children, because
6101 Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no mate, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.
4211 The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
Ayat 6101, further establishes, contrary to the Christian and Muslim notion that, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD/ALMIGHTY GOD CAN DO ANYTHING, is simply not true. Allah, Almighty God says Himself that, He CANNOT have a child, because He has no MATE!.
FANTASTIC WORK!!!! especially on 685-87, that is undeniable proof that isa had a father, i'd like to speak on 6101 though, I agree with the conclusion that if God can't reproduce without a mate then how can a human? I'd like to say that God has willingly restricted His Own power to His Own laws that He has established, there is no variation in His laws and He never goes against them, that is what I think the sign means
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FANTASTIC WORK!!!! especially on 685-87, that is undeniable proof that isa had a father, i'd like to speak on 6101 though, I agree with the conclusion that if God can't reproduce without a mate then how can a human? I'd like to say that God has willingly restricted His Own power to His Own laws that He has established, there is no variation in His laws and He never goes against them, that is what I think the sign means
Khi- Tht verse was just a mock 2 those who claim GOD begot a son or in other words GOD is male. However GOD is neither male nor female n He can do wht He wants. He can surely create a human without father or mother just as He had done in the beginning when the gene codes were set. N nowhere does the Quran talk abt GOD not violating the laws of nature. Those verses talk abt a law tht GOD always punishes the unbelieving folk in the end. Plz recheck the context. GOD Bless!
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peace be upon you,
Khi- Tht verse was just a mock 2 those who claim GOD begot a son or in other words GOD is male. However GOD is neither male nor female n He can do wht He wants. He can surely create a human without father or mother just as He had done in the beginning when the gene codes were set. N nowhere does the Quran talk abt GOD not violating the laws of nature. Those verses talk abt a law tht GOD always punishes the unbelieving folk in the end. Plz recheck the context. GOD Bless!
mere conjecture, you're just extrapolating, the problem with this is in the sign that it says God has a mate yet it also says it is God Who is the One to beget the son, it doesn't necessarily say God has a sex or specify a sex, the sign says God cannot have a son without a mate, are you saying Mary can? also God doesn't create people without sperm/egg combo, to say otherwise is a direct contradiction of the verses that Priest presented, also when I speak about God not violating His Own system I'm not referring to those verses you keep bringing up wink even though i could because the statement was general, the statement before it spoke on the context
p.s.-why do you respond to me instead of to Priest's post which presented far better arguments than mine?
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mere conjecture, you're just extrapolating, the problem with this is in the sign that it says God has a mate yet it also says it is God Who is the One to beget the son, it doesn't necessarily say God has a sex or specify a sex, the sign says God cannot have a son without a mate, are you saying Mary can? also God doesn't create people without sperm/egg combo, to say otherwise is a direct contradiction of the verses that Priest presented, also when I speak about God not violating His Own system I'm not referring to those verses you keep bringing up wink even though i could because the statement was general, the statement before it spoke on the context
p.s.-why do you respond to me instead of to Priest's post which presented far better arguments than mine?
Khi- Salam. GOD never procreates. He is the creator. Those ppl were attributing animal properties 2 GOD Almighty n ths y GOD mocked them. This is so obvious. No need of conjecture at all. N the sign/verse doesnt say tht at all wht u r claiming. Where does GOD say in tht verse tht 'he cannot have a son without a mate'? On the contrary GOD says in another verse
If GOD wanted to have a son, He could have chosen whomever He willed from among His creations. Be He glorified; He is GOD, the One, the Supreme.
There is NO mention of any mate here. GOD thus cld have chosen a son if He wanted without any mate. The thing is tht GOD is the creator n has no son or daughter whtsoever. He CREATED a child inside Mary's womb just as He created the gene pool of the 1st humans in the beginning. Is this too diffcult to grasp? Btw i explained those verses already n they were not at all general. It seems u didnt even read my previous posts. N when u say tht no human being is born without male/female spperm egg combo dont u think GOD cld have created such in Mary's womb by manipuilating the genes. Surely GOD who knows full well the gene code can do tht. It is easy 4 Him. Get tht now? GOD Bless! -
peace be upon you,
Khi- Salam. GOD never procreates. He is the creator. Those ppl were attributing animal properties 2 GOD Almighty n ths y GOD mocked them. This is so obvious. No need of conjecture at all.
actually there is need for conjecture, you cannot prove that it is not a serious statement, I see no humor or mockery in it, prove to me there is
N the sign/verse doesnt say tht at all wht u r claiming. Where does GOD say in tht verse tht 'he cannot have a son without a mate'?
6101 Originator of the skies and the earth, how can He have a son when He did not take a mate? And He created all things and He is knowledgeable over all things.
He asks how can He have a son without a mate, meaning that a mate would be necessary for God to beget a son
On the contrary GOD says in another verse
If GOD wanted to have a son, He could have chosen whomever He willed from among His creations. Be He glorified; He is GOD, the One, the Supreme.
There is NO mention of any mate here. GOD thus cld have chosen a son if He wanted without any mate.If The God wished to take a son, He could have exalted from among His creation what He pleases. Be He glorified; He is The God, the One, the Supreme. (394)
the problem with what you are saying is that God indeed could have TAKEN a son without any mate, but could He have BEGOTTEN a son with any mate, there are two types of signs regarding supposed "sons of God", there are those that refute those that say God has taken a son (as the christians do) and those that refute those that say God has physically begotten a son (as the Hindus and other ancient pagan religions do), 394 was speaking about those that say God has taken a son and 6101 was speaking about those that say God have begotten a son
The thing is tht GOD is the creator n has no son or daughter whtsoever. He CREATED a child inside Mary's womb just as He created the gene pool of the 1st humans in the beginning.
agreed, God has no son and daughter, how could He when He has no mate He creates all of us in the womb, not just isa, also if the first human beings were created the same as isa as you claim how could they be created in a human womb like isa was if none existed before them? perhaps they were created in an ape womb isa was created in a womb, adam must of been created in a womb as well because his creation was just like isa's, who's womb was adam created in?
Is this too diffcult to grasp? Btw i explained those verses already n they were not at all general. It seems u didnt even read my previous posts.
coming from someone who ignored a full refutation from me and is conviently avoid priest bokmei roll
N when u say tht no human being is born without male/female spperm egg combo dont u think GOD cld have created such in Mary's womb by manipuilating the genes. Surely GOD who knows full well the gene code can do tht. It is easy 4 Him. Get tht now? GOD Bless!
sure He could but He doesn't and you can't prove that He does
peace
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Salam,
Forget abt the consort thing 4 a min. Ok lets say GOD cannot have a son without a consort. So? This still doesnt mean tht Jesus was not born without a human father coz Jesus had NO father. We see this when Jesus is referred as Isa ibne Maryam. This in Arabic is ONLY done when theres no father. Otherwise the ibn wld refer 2 the male not the female. 'hlatif' also posted verses above which u ignored reagrding the 'unreached vagina' n also tht Jesus only addressed his mother in Quran n NEVER his father indicating he did not have one. So Jesus had no father. He was CREATED specially by GOD. Otherwise the relation of 'Jesus' with 'Adam' in the Quran doesnt make any sense. Y wld GOD make such a relation wth Jesus n not humans in general`Coincidence? GOD Bless! -
Salaam Khizar,
To me the message is that people need people to reproduce with as per the design which God has determined. That's why God uses Itself as an example for this method. Can you consider it or are you set in your ways already?
Joe
Khi- No tht verse only states tht it's a blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period. It by NO means implies tht GOD will never intercede into wht we call the laws of nature. Nowehere in the Quran do we find such a statement. Quite on the contrary the miracles/signs shown or mentioned in the Quran show the opposite. GOD Bless!
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peace be upon you,
Salam,
Forget abt the consort thing 4 a min. Ok lets say GOD cannot have a son without a consort. So?are you saying The God can't have son without a mate but Mary can? are you suggesting Mary is more powerful than God? maybe you should convert to Catholicism than lol
This still doesnt mean tht Jesus was not born without a human father coz Jesus had NO father. We see this when Jesus is referred as Isa ibne Maryam. This in Arabic is ONLY done when theres no father. Otherwise the ibn wld refer 2 the male not the female.
i guess the rule doesn't apply here, probably because that was his "title" in whatever language he spoke, history says its aramaic
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path. (685-87)'hlatif' also posted verses above which u ignored reagrding the 'unreached vagina' n also tht Jesus only addressed his mother in Quran n NEVER his father indicating he did not have one. So Jesus had no father. He was CREATED specially by GOD.
If Mary is an example to the women (6612) and her supposed life-long virginity is so important do you expect women to take her example and remain a virgin and maybe concieve a son just as she?
i guess in 235, 2430-31, and 7029 the believers are those that stay virgins roll
many of the prophets never mentioned their parents, I guess they were born out of thin air, you seem to underestimate Mary's importance as an example for women and sign to the knowledgeables, I have no idea why Jesus's father is never mentioned or why he isn't called bin (insert name of father here) but I think because somebody is called bin (insert father's name here) doesn't mean they don't have a mom just like if somebody is called bin maryam doesn't mean they don't have a father
Otherwise the relation of 'Jesus' with 'Adam' in the Quran doesnt make any sense. Y wld GOD make such a relation wth Jesus n not humans in general`Coincidence? GOD Bless!
Adam is an allegory to mankind in general as shown in 238, i'm going to borrow what Nabi said
let me explain why the argument of 'like Adam' is incorrect.
In the Scripture it is said that Man is created from clay.
And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay. So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.? (1528-29)
He said ?I am not to submit to a human You have created from a hardened clay.? (1533)
Fast forward to Man years later.
His friend said to him while discussing with him ?Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dirt, then from a seed, then He evolved you into a man?? (1837)
Now pay attention.
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam;? so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted. (711)
You???? Is God talking to Adam, or to Ahmad? Is God talking to you, or to Jesus?
What do you make of this passage below?
O mankind, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dirt, then from semen, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We allow it in the wombs as We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who are taken, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. And you see the land still, but when We send down the water to it, it vibrates and grows, and it brings forth of every lovely pair. (225)
Dirt? Were you made from dirt, or from sperm? Adam and Jesus are made from dirt right? Also notice the evolving that is referred to in verse 1837.
We have created mankind from a structure derived from mud. (2312)
Who is mankind that is created from mud? Us?
And We had made a pledge to Adam from before, but he forgot, and We did not find in him the will power. (20115)
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves ?Am I not your Lord?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness.? Thus you cannot say on the day of resurrection that you were unaware of this. (7172)
Is this the one and the same covenant for Mankind? Is Jesus not like the rest of mankind, created from mud/dirt and a sperm drop? Where Mankind has moms and dads you would deny Jesus his father? Do you also deny that Jesus is exempt from death?
If Jesus is the likeness of Adam than he is no different from how the rest of us are created. That is from dirt, sperm, a clot, etc. Why his father is not mentioned? There can be many reason perhaps. Maybe his father was one of those guys that leaves mommy to do all the work, or maybe daddy was not involved, or affiliated with anything in regards to Jesus out of personal choice. Perhaps dad died while Jesus was in the womb!
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peace be upon you,
Khi- No tht verse only states tht it's na blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period. It by NO means implies tht GOG will never intercede into wht we call the laws of nature. Nowehere in the Quran do we find such a statement. Quite on the contrary the miracles/signs shown or mentioned in the Quran show the opposite. GOD Bless!
nowhere does that sign say such a thing, your own extrapolations again, it says how can God have a son when he has not taken a mate? God won't intercede into His law of procreation just like he won't intercede into the rest of His prescribed laws, the so-called "miracles" are merely allegories
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Salaam all,
Idris said
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path. (685-87)The word fathers and in arabic ABAA is a male plural word, which is sex inclusive. This means that it actually is talking about fathers and mothers as well as grandparents of all the sexes. Lisan AlARAB talks about that.
If Mary is an example to the women (6612) and her supposed life-long virginity is so important do you expect women to take her example and remain a virgin and maybe concieve a son just as she?
i guess in 235, 2430-31, and 7029 the believers are those that stay virgins
The Ayat that I mentioned talk about the virginity at the time of conception. It did not talk about what happens after that.
Salaam
Hussein
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Dear Hussein,
You mention the "time of conception" - when was this exactly and how do you correlate your explanation with the birth of Yahya and the announcement of his birth.
When was Yahya's "time of conception" in relation to the announcement of a child to come.
Jesus' birth is not a miracle - how can people of the time believe it's a miracle - how would anyone else witness that there was no man involved.
The virgin birth is a Christian myth - how does it affect your belief to see rationality and understand that he was conceived just like you and me?
Would your entire faith system be shaken by Jesus being an ordinary man?
How about your Christian brothers?
In whose interest is it to propagate such a myth - especially when several of us have demonstrated from the Koran (and scientific fact) that Jesus cannot have been anything but a man born from a normal conception?
Regards.
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peace be upon u hlatif,
The word fathers and in arabic ABAA is a male plural word, which is sex inclusive. This means that it actually is talking about fathers and mothers as well as grandparents of all the sexes. Lisan AlARAB talks about that.
ok so now Isa has a father and a mother, point proven, thanx be to God, end of debate, it actually works better that it means fathers and mothers, well, it doesn't matter really because we all knew isa had a mother
peace
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Salaam,
No tht verse only states tht it's na blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period.
I do not agree. I think the author of the quran is trying to make a point that people must have a consort to have children. Thus God asks how can he have a son without a consort. Unless Mary is to be God's mate which nobody believes . It could have read God does not have sons and daughters and we read already that God begets not so it is clear. I do not think I am explaining it good enough for you to understand my perception of what is going on. Why would it be said God cannot have a son without a consort if we already know God can do all things?
Joe