Regarding virgin births and Jesus (and Adam).
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FANTASTIC WORK!!!! especially on 685-87, that is undeniable proof that isa had a father, i'd like to speak on 6101 though, I agree with the conclusion that if God can't reproduce without a mate then how can a human? I'd like to say that God has willingly restricted His Own power to His Own laws that He has established, there is no variation in His laws and He never goes against them, that is what I think the sign means
Khi- Tht verse was just a mock 2 those who claim GOD begot a son or in other words GOD is male. However GOD is neither male nor female n He can do wht He wants. He can surely create a human without father or mother just as He had done in the beginning when the gene codes were set. N nowhere does the Quran talk abt GOD not violating the laws of nature. Those verses talk abt a law tht GOD always punishes the unbelieving folk in the end. Plz recheck the context. GOD Bless!
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peace be upon you,
Khi- Tht verse was just a mock 2 those who claim GOD begot a son or in other words GOD is male. However GOD is neither male nor female n He can do wht He wants. He can surely create a human without father or mother just as He had done in the beginning when the gene codes were set. N nowhere does the Quran talk abt GOD not violating the laws of nature. Those verses talk abt a law tht GOD always punishes the unbelieving folk in the end. Plz recheck the context. GOD Bless!
mere conjecture, you're just extrapolating, the problem with this is in the sign that it says God has a mate yet it also says it is God Who is the One to beget the son, it doesn't necessarily say God has a sex or specify a sex, the sign says God cannot have a son without a mate, are you saying Mary can? also God doesn't create people without sperm/egg combo, to say otherwise is a direct contradiction of the verses that Priest presented, also when I speak about God not violating His Own system I'm not referring to those verses you keep bringing up wink even though i could because the statement was general, the statement before it spoke on the context
p.s.-why do you respond to me instead of to Priest's post which presented far better arguments than mine?
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mere conjecture, you're just extrapolating, the problem with this is in the sign that it says God has a mate yet it also says it is God Who is the One to beget the son, it doesn't necessarily say God has a sex or specify a sex, the sign says God cannot have a son without a mate, are you saying Mary can? also God doesn't create people without sperm/egg combo, to say otherwise is a direct contradiction of the verses that Priest presented, also when I speak about God not violating His Own system I'm not referring to those verses you keep bringing up wink even though i could because the statement was general, the statement before it spoke on the context
p.s.-why do you respond to me instead of to Priest's post which presented far better arguments than mine?
Khi- Salam. GOD never procreates. He is the creator. Those ppl were attributing animal properties 2 GOD Almighty n ths y GOD mocked them. This is so obvious. No need of conjecture at all. N the sign/verse doesnt say tht at all wht u r claiming. Where does GOD say in tht verse tht 'he cannot have a son without a mate'? On the contrary GOD says in another verse
If GOD wanted to have a son, He could have chosen whomever He willed from among His creations. Be He glorified; He is GOD, the One, the Supreme.
There is NO mention of any mate here. GOD thus cld have chosen a son if He wanted without any mate. The thing is tht GOD is the creator n has no son or daughter whtsoever. He CREATED a child inside Mary's womb just as He created the gene pool of the 1st humans in the beginning. Is this too diffcult to grasp? Btw i explained those verses already n they were not at all general. It seems u didnt even read my previous posts. N when u say tht no human being is born without male/female spperm egg combo dont u think GOD cld have created such in Mary's womb by manipuilating the genes. Surely GOD who knows full well the gene code can do tht. It is easy 4 Him. Get tht now? GOD Bless! -
peace be upon you,
Khi- Salam. GOD never procreates. He is the creator. Those ppl were attributing animal properties 2 GOD Almighty n ths y GOD mocked them. This is so obvious. No need of conjecture at all.
actually there is need for conjecture, you cannot prove that it is not a serious statement, I see no humor or mockery in it, prove to me there is
N the sign/verse doesnt say tht at all wht u r claiming. Where does GOD say in tht verse tht 'he cannot have a son without a mate'?
6101 Originator of the skies and the earth, how can He have a son when He did not take a mate? And He created all things and He is knowledgeable over all things.
He asks how can He have a son without a mate, meaning that a mate would be necessary for God to beget a son
On the contrary GOD says in another verse
If GOD wanted to have a son, He could have chosen whomever He willed from among His creations. Be He glorified; He is GOD, the One, the Supreme.
There is NO mention of any mate here. GOD thus cld have chosen a son if He wanted without any mate.If The God wished to take a son, He could have exalted from among His creation what He pleases. Be He glorified; He is The God, the One, the Supreme. (394)
the problem with what you are saying is that God indeed could have TAKEN a son without any mate, but could He have BEGOTTEN a son with any mate, there are two types of signs regarding supposed "sons of God", there are those that refute those that say God has taken a son (as the christians do) and those that refute those that say God has physically begotten a son (as the Hindus and other ancient pagan religions do), 394 was speaking about those that say God has taken a son and 6101 was speaking about those that say God have begotten a son
The thing is tht GOD is the creator n has no son or daughter whtsoever. He CREATED a child inside Mary's womb just as He created the gene pool of the 1st humans in the beginning.
agreed, God has no son and daughter, how could He when He has no mate He creates all of us in the womb, not just isa, also if the first human beings were created the same as isa as you claim how could they be created in a human womb like isa was if none existed before them? perhaps they were created in an ape womb isa was created in a womb, adam must of been created in a womb as well because his creation was just like isa's, who's womb was adam created in?
Is this too diffcult to grasp? Btw i explained those verses already n they were not at all general. It seems u didnt even read my previous posts.
coming from someone who ignored a full refutation from me and is conviently avoid priest bokmei roll
N when u say tht no human being is born without male/female spperm egg combo dont u think GOD cld have created such in Mary's womb by manipuilating the genes. Surely GOD who knows full well the gene code can do tht. It is easy 4 Him. Get tht now? GOD Bless!
sure He could but He doesn't and you can't prove that He does
peace
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Salam,
Forget abt the consort thing 4 a min. Ok lets say GOD cannot have a son without a consort. So? This still doesnt mean tht Jesus was not born without a human father coz Jesus had NO father. We see this when Jesus is referred as Isa ibne Maryam. This in Arabic is ONLY done when theres no father. Otherwise the ibn wld refer 2 the male not the female. 'hlatif' also posted verses above which u ignored reagrding the 'unreached vagina' n also tht Jesus only addressed his mother in Quran n NEVER his father indicating he did not have one. So Jesus had no father. He was CREATED specially by GOD. Otherwise the relation of 'Jesus' with 'Adam' in the Quran doesnt make any sense. Y wld GOD make such a relation wth Jesus n not humans in general`Coincidence? GOD Bless! -
Salaam Khizar,
To me the message is that people need people to reproduce with as per the design which God has determined. That's why God uses Itself as an example for this method. Can you consider it or are you set in your ways already?
Joe
Khi- No tht verse only states tht it's a blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period. It by NO means implies tht GOD will never intercede into wht we call the laws of nature. Nowehere in the Quran do we find such a statement. Quite on the contrary the miracles/signs shown or mentioned in the Quran show the opposite. GOD Bless!
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peace be upon you,
Salam,
Forget abt the consort thing 4 a min. Ok lets say GOD cannot have a son without a consort. So?are you saying The God can't have son without a mate but Mary can? are you suggesting Mary is more powerful than God? maybe you should convert to Catholicism than lol
This still doesnt mean tht Jesus was not born without a human father coz Jesus had NO father. We see this when Jesus is referred as Isa ibne Maryam. This in Arabic is ONLY done when theres no father. Otherwise the ibn wld refer 2 the male not the female.
i guess the rule doesn't apply here, probably because that was his "title" in whatever language he spoke, history says its aramaic
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path. (685-87)'hlatif' also posted verses above which u ignored reagrding the 'unreached vagina' n also tht Jesus only addressed his mother in Quran n NEVER his father indicating he did not have one. So Jesus had no father. He was CREATED specially by GOD.
If Mary is an example to the women (6612) and her supposed life-long virginity is so important do you expect women to take her example and remain a virgin and maybe concieve a son just as she?
i guess in 235, 2430-31, and 7029 the believers are those that stay virgins roll
many of the prophets never mentioned their parents, I guess they were born out of thin air, you seem to underestimate Mary's importance as an example for women and sign to the knowledgeables, I have no idea why Jesus's father is never mentioned or why he isn't called bin (insert name of father here) but I think because somebody is called bin (insert father's name here) doesn't mean they don't have a mom just like if somebody is called bin maryam doesn't mean they don't have a father
Otherwise the relation of 'Jesus' with 'Adam' in the Quran doesnt make any sense. Y wld GOD make such a relation wth Jesus n not humans in general`Coincidence? GOD Bless!
Adam is an allegory to mankind in general as shown in 238, i'm going to borrow what Nabi said
let me explain why the argument of 'like Adam' is incorrect.
In the Scripture it is said that Man is created from clay.
And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay. So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.? (1528-29)
He said ?I am not to submit to a human You have created from a hardened clay.? (1533)
Fast forward to Man years later.
His friend said to him while discussing with him ?Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dirt, then from a seed, then He evolved you into a man?? (1837)
Now pay attention.
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam;? so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted. (711)
You???? Is God talking to Adam, or to Ahmad? Is God talking to you, or to Jesus?
What do you make of this passage below?
O mankind, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dirt, then from semen, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We allow it in the wombs as We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who are taken, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. And you see the land still, but when We send down the water to it, it vibrates and grows, and it brings forth of every lovely pair. (225)
Dirt? Were you made from dirt, or from sperm? Adam and Jesus are made from dirt right? Also notice the evolving that is referred to in verse 1837.
We have created mankind from a structure derived from mud. (2312)
Who is mankind that is created from mud? Us?
And We had made a pledge to Adam from before, but he forgot, and We did not find in him the will power. (20115)
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves ?Am I not your Lord?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness.? Thus you cannot say on the day of resurrection that you were unaware of this. (7172)
Is this the one and the same covenant for Mankind? Is Jesus not like the rest of mankind, created from mud/dirt and a sperm drop? Where Mankind has moms and dads you would deny Jesus his father? Do you also deny that Jesus is exempt from death?
If Jesus is the likeness of Adam than he is no different from how the rest of us are created. That is from dirt, sperm, a clot, etc. Why his father is not mentioned? There can be many reason perhaps. Maybe his father was one of those guys that leaves mommy to do all the work, or maybe daddy was not involved, or affiliated with anything in regards to Jesus out of personal choice. Perhaps dad died while Jesus was in the womb!
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peace be upon you,
Khi- No tht verse only states tht it's na blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period. It by NO means implies tht GOG will never intercede into wht we call the laws of nature. Nowehere in the Quran do we find such a statement. Quite on the contrary the miracles/signs shown or mentioned in the Quran show the opposite. GOD Bless!
nowhere does that sign say such a thing, your own extrapolations again, it says how can God have a son when he has not taken a mate? God won't intercede into His law of procreation just like he won't intercede into the rest of His prescribed laws, the so-called "miracles" are merely allegories
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Salaam all,
Idris said
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path. (685-87)The word fathers and in arabic ABAA is a male plural word, which is sex inclusive. This means that it actually is talking about fathers and mothers as well as grandparents of all the sexes. Lisan AlARAB talks about that.
If Mary is an example to the women (6612) and her supposed life-long virginity is so important do you expect women to take her example and remain a virgin and maybe concieve a son just as she?
i guess in 235, 2430-31, and 7029 the believers are those that stay virgins
The Ayat that I mentioned talk about the virginity at the time of conception. It did not talk about what happens after that.
Salaam
Hussein
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Dear Hussein,
You mention the "time of conception" - when was this exactly and how do you correlate your explanation with the birth of Yahya and the announcement of his birth.
When was Yahya's "time of conception" in relation to the announcement of a child to come.
Jesus' birth is not a miracle - how can people of the time believe it's a miracle - how would anyone else witness that there was no man involved.
The virgin birth is a Christian myth - how does it affect your belief to see rationality and understand that he was conceived just like you and me?
Would your entire faith system be shaken by Jesus being an ordinary man?
How about your Christian brothers?
In whose interest is it to propagate such a myth - especially when several of us have demonstrated from the Koran (and scientific fact) that Jesus cannot have been anything but a man born from a normal conception?
Regards.
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peace be upon u hlatif,
The word fathers and in arabic ABAA is a male plural word, which is sex inclusive. This means that it actually is talking about fathers and mothers as well as grandparents of all the sexes. Lisan AlARAB talks about that.
ok so now Isa has a father and a mother, point proven, thanx be to God, end of debate, it actually works better that it means fathers and mothers, well, it doesn't matter really because we all knew isa had a mother
peace
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Salaam,
No tht verse only states tht it's na blaphemy 2 say GOD had begotten a son. Period.
I do not agree. I think the author of the quran is trying to make a point that people must have a consort to have children. Thus God asks how can he have a son without a consort. Unless Mary is to be God's mate which nobody believes . It could have read God does not have sons and daughters and we read already that God begets not so it is clear. I do not think I am explaining it good enough for you to understand my perception of what is going on. Why would it be said God cannot have a son without a consort if we already know God can do all things?
Joe
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Salaam Truth,all,
brother truth said
When was Yahya's "time of conception" in relation to the announcement of a child to come.
the word that was used related to Yahya was Nubashshiruka which means to give you the good news. Therefore it happened soon after.
The word that was used for Mary was AHAB which means Give you and it was given by the RUH (spirit) that was visiting her at that time. The stories are similar to an extent and then they differ.Would your entire faith system be shaken by Jesus being an ordinary man?
No
In whose interest is it to propagate such a myth - especially when several of us have demonstrated from the Koran (and scientific fact) that Jesus cannot have been anything but a man born from a normal conception?
NO ONE of you addressed the AYAT that I presented to you in the previous post. When you guys address them in a reasonable pattern, we will see.
Salaam and have a beautiful day
Hussein
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salaam Idris, all,
Idris said
ok so now Isa has a father and a mother, point proven, thanx be to God, end of debate, it actually works better that it means fathers and mothers, well, it doesn't matter really because we all knew isa had a mother
peace
Whe it is sex inclusive it means Fathers OR mothers OR both. It does not mean father and mothers.
Now I want to address 6101
There is NO Can in the AYAH by the way. The ANNA is a question that means How and why and when and where altogether. So GOD is asking people to explain the specifics of hiim having a son, and as he asks that question people will not be able to answer. The other point is that the absence of the female partner is added as a comlicating factor and not as a condition. Third point is that What applies to GOD does not necesarily apply to man and what applies to man does not necessarily apply to GOD.This is How I translate the AYAH
6101 To him is due the primal origin of the heavens and earth. How and why and where and when does he have a son?! And he does not have a female partner, and he created everything and he knows about everything.Salaam
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
I think everyone is avoiding the main points of the other side and looking at side issues in many cases. I have made some fairly important points (as far as I see them) regarding contradictions and God's absence of contradiction which has fallen on deaf ears (blind eyes?).
In any case I have enjoyed sharpening my points on this question so that I can address it more completely than I could have before.
I just want to come to one important issue you raised.
What applies to GOD does not necesarily apply to man and what applies to man does not necessarily apply to GOD.
I think that you have to be careful here. It's true that nothing compares to God, however when God narrates the reading to us He brings it to the human level - so that we are able to understand. Note that when God narrates the history of the 'feud' in heaven in relation to Adam's creation the narration reads as a dialogue between God and Satan when God has no mouth or ears. The narration merely conveys to us that an interaction took place but the exact nature is impossible to know for us.
Now when God mentions requiring a partner, then it is framed in the human perspective so that we can understand. The act of human conception according to God therefore requires sperm/egg - ie. a partner or paired creation (remember everything in pairs) and thus the point is made in the way it is. We understand that it is not possible nor fitting for God to have a partner or a son - but the example is presented from the human framework with the human requirements for conception - thus Jesus needs a father in order to come into being.
I want to bring the Christian question forward again. Now in the Christian mythology Mary has a virgin birth like the pagan examples that preced her. However it was well recorded that Mary had a husband Joseph. One would think that the originators of the virgin birth myth would have had a hard time erasing the existence of Joseph from the records but I have no doubt that they would have, if they could have.
It's just that the messiah according to their tradition needed to come from two branches of Isaacs family, and the bible shows that both Mary and Joseph came from Isaacs line. Why Joseph would have to is a mystery given that they don't believe his spermline was necessary in any case. The biological father who's been made symbolic by the fabricated myth of the virgin birth.
Joseph's (the father of Jesus) existence in the Christian tradition/bible goes a long way to showing that the virgin birth was a myth fabricated in later times to deify Jesus.
Regards.
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Peace all,
About being made from "dirt, then sperm, then a clot...", I believe that it is literally corret.
The quantity and quality of sperm are closely related to the person's diet. Humans need food to live as any living organism, males need to eat (well)to be able to produce sperm.
And basically, our food (vegetables, meat from animals...) comes from the dirt, the soil. This food is transformed in males body into spem, and then when injected in the female body, it meets the egg and produce a clot.
Literally speaking, we are made from the very constituants of the soil after it had passed by some transformations. Humans are still created everyday by this same process, starting from the dirt. Glory to the god the best creator.
His friend said to him while discussing with him ?Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dirt, then from a seed, then He evolved you into a man?? (1837)
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Salaam Truth, all
I think that I owe you an apology. You are right, and I should have addressed the points that you made in your original post. Please forgive me.
You said
The problem with Isa being a clone or a parthenogenetic being (thus virgin birth) is that Isa is a MALE - requiring a Y chromosome. This cannot have come from Mary unless one imagines she had a genotypic abnormality - XX/XY mosaicism or chimerism - which results usually in an intersex phenotype. Known as hermaphrodites the genitals of such individuals are usually abnormal. Even then the egg or ovum of a female can only contain the X chromosome - an ovum is the quintessential female cell by necessity having the X chromosome. Similarly the sperm is typified by the Y chromosome.
I do not think that anyone can prove the birth of Jesus, from a mother without a father, in a scientific way. However, if we believe that the rules of the science were created by GOD, then GOD can break them. This is an area of difference between us, that we may not be able to reconcile, because we look at the issue from two different angles.
It is much more credible to believe that the news given to Mary was simply a prophecy of a child to arrive before Mary had been inseminated naturally by her eventual husband.
I think that I addressed this issue that AHAB that was used means GIVE rather than announce. 1919. I cannot change the word that GOD used, not change it's meaning.
Remember that Mary moves away from her family. It would be highly unusual for a girl to leave on her own to some foreign place without her family or any other protection. To think she spent 9 months while the baby grew in her tummy just wandering in the wilderness is absurd.
I look at those statements differently. The word that you are poitning to is INTABATHAT and it means PUT HERSELF in ISOLATION/Put herself separate/away. It came on two occasions
1916 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
1917 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
So, here she merely isolated herself from them, because she put a screen between herself and the family. If she moved away, she would not put a screenThen comes this
1922 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.So she moved away after the conception. She could have gone with a man, but the man was not the source of the conception. The reason was that the RUH that visited her earlier was the same one the breathed in her and caused the existence of the baby.
When she returns she is accused of being a harlot from the conversations however she is defended by the CHILD (not baby) who had obviously grown to a speaking age.
I disagree for two reasons
1- the people were surprised that she pointed to the kid
2- The word SABIA means Growing and not necessarily child. Another word was MAHD which means cradle. So what they asked was How can we ask this Growing (child/baby) that is in the cradle?359 The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
The equality is in the BE and IT is part as well as the dust part. It is not in the birth or the parentage.
Now when God mentions requiring a partner, then it is framed in the human perspective so that we can understand. The act of human conception according to God therefore requires sperm/egg - ie. a partner or paired creation (remember everything in pairs) and thus the point is made in the way it is. We understand that it is not possible nor fitting for God to have a partner or a son - but the example is presented from the human framework with the human requirements for conception - thus Jesus needs a father in order to come into being.
You have a great point here. GOD posed the question to humanity in 6101 and humanity does not have the answer, and will never have the answer.
Mary asked the exact question, using the same ANNA that was used in 6101 (because she expected no answer)
1920 She said "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
and she received the answer
10921 He said "So (it will be) Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us'It is a matter (so) decreed."So GOD asked us a question that we cannot answer. However, when Mary asked the same question to GOD, He answered. There is a big diference.
I want to bring the Christian question forward again. Now in the Christian mythology Mary has a virgin birth like the pagan examples that preced her. However it was well recorded that Mary had a husband Joseph. One would think that the originators of the virgin birth myth would have had a hard time erasing the existence of Joseph from the records but I have no doubt that they would have, if they could have.
Why do we have to worry about the christian issue? I am looking at it from a solely Qur'anic perspective.
Take care brother Truth and please forgive me for not answering your original post. Also forgive the long post here.
Hussein