About being a virgin....
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I had many opportunities in my life after the death of my beloved.
Salaams Myr,
If I may ask Have you married your beloved or did he pass away before that?Salam Taj,
My fiance suddenly passed away 4 months prior to the wedding.
I somehow disagree with you about the past of a person-). Believe me, there is no ambiguity in the verse on the fornicators and there is always a very good reason why the All-Mighty had made this issue a requirement. The only situation where I would not apply the verse is if the fornicator was a not a Muslim or Believer at the time this happened, but unfortunately for the majority this is not the case.
I understand and agree on the importance of the heart when you are dealing with a person you like but as I often say we are tested in our life through all kinds of things and liking some one with the intention to become spouses is one of them. Two years ago, I liked a good non-believer man who was before a good friend. He felt the need to develop further our friendship and I gave it a try with the hope that his heart will click for the All-Mighty but it did not happen. He was a christian willing to become muslim "for convenience" that I may feel better. I said no since there is nothing such as "to submit for convenience", for me you either believe or you don't. It was with a "sadness" that I called it quit. I was tortured in my mind by the fear of God so I preferred to be alone again than to be in a relation that will bring sooner or later the curse and anger of the All-Mighty. After that, I got to know a good german guy very smart and attrative but atheist. This time I even did not give it a try and stopped everything up front as soon as my heart started leaning toward him. With my Brothers, it is very difficult because of the religious culture dilemma, far away from the Quran and most of the time what they preach or claim is not reflected in their behavior. When you have someone looking for a "virgin" while himself fornicated and still sees it not a big deal, this is for me an indication of a very weak faith for not saying something else. Please don't get me wrong, I am not juging the person as such as only God the All-Mighty knows what is in the heart of a person but I deeply believe there is a very good reason why God the All-Mighty emphasized the requirement to marry a BEliever (mu2'men), HE did even not say a "muslim"/submitter but a Mu2men.
May the All-Mighty make this test smooth and easy on us.
I hope I did not offend any of you with my statement above. And if I did, may the All-Mighty forgive me as it was not intended at all.
Peace. Myr. -
Salam Aleikum
Salam D.C., all,
To Myr Thx your reply... seeing your answer... It gives me more knowledge and thinking about Islam.... But I do got one question, in a eksample
You totally fall for a guy...You find out, he's just the same believer like you..... BUT he had been with a girl in his past, you know what I mean.... The guy was not a really good muslim in the past, but he regrets, what he did, and he's regretting and hope for forgiveness...... Would you forgive him ? and marry him ??
I know it sounds kinda dumb... I just wanted to hear you in that kind situation... Becuase you only told me about 2 kinda of men ( muslim who done it and disbelivers )
If it's up to me... I would forgive the girl... and marry her.... D
I hope my answer will not be a choc for you-) but I won't marry that person. The issue is not to forgive, the issue is whether you answer God's commands or not. I understand it may be very hard to overcome our feelings for a person, the devil plays with that all the time and that's why men are commanded in Quran to speak right to women and observe the commands prior to jumping in marriage, mainly those who divorced and have to observe the waiting period. The story of Joseph in Quran is also a very good illustration of how the desires can make you incline to displease the All-Mighty and put you in a sort of temporary enjoyable situation but with so many sour consequences-). Have you noticed in the verse that describes the creation of the man and woman and that God made them spouses and has put "mawadda" (caring/affection) and "rah'ma" (mercy) between them. In this verse, there is no mention of "love" (hubb), although this word is found in other verses. I always tell myself there is a very good reason why "love" is not mentioned as the concrete in a spouses relation. The heart does not always lead you to a happy peaceful life, on controrary sometimes to torture-) I remember all those insomnia nights I had when I decided to not marry the convert for "convenience". I was torn as my heart was in pain and my brain was telling me stay away from future troubles and ugly consequences as this is going to bring God's anger on me. My brain was a processor running like hell-) and one verse was coming again and agian in my head thus Icouldn't sleep. This verse always makes me "shake" for fear of the All-Mighty, it literally says "al-khabetthen lel khabetthatt wa al-ttayebeen lel ttayebatt" (the crooked/bad/ugly/wrong doers (males) are for the crooked/bad/ugly/wrong doers (female) and the right/good doers (males) are for the right/good doers (females). So I always try to be with those who strive to live by the Quran and not those who uphold the Quran only in theory while their attitude/life does not reflect what they are preaching.
May the All-Mighty bestow on us a lot of patience and not let the low desires to lead us in our decision and if this happens, may HE make it happen with a true believer.
Again, my apologies if I offended anyone with my statement above.
Peace.Myr. -
Salam Myr,
you didn't shock or offend me with your answer, although i do absolutely not share the same view - and i still consider myself a muslim or at least someone trying to be one...
I really think that you are being too hard, especially on yourself. I'm not talking about your real story - you sure had your reasons - but about your answer to DC's example. He was talking about a repenter...a muslim. Someone can have been an adulterer / or fornicator and become clean. If we were unable to reform, why would we be here ? God clearly says that he forgives the sins of those that repent and reform !
Wish you the best,
Elke -
Salam Myr,
you didn't shock or offend me with your answer, although i do absolutely not share the same view - and i still consider myself a muslim or at least someone trying to be one...
I really think that you are being too hard, especially on yourself. I'm not talking about your real story - you sure had your reasons - but about your answer to DC's example. He was talking about a repenter...a muslim. Someone can have been an adulterer / or fornicator and become clean. If we were unable to reform, why would we be here ? God clearly says that he forgives the sins of those that repent and reform !
Wish you the best,
ElkeSalam Elke, all,
There are also many Sisters who repent (fornicated before and then repent) . Again, the issue is not about forgiveness or heart feelings. The issue is about whether you go by what is in Quran or not. I respect the faith of each of us here. Some would ignore verses for reasons that I respect but yet Quran is clear and there is no ambiguity. It is up to each of us to consider or ignore clear verses. There are many verses that stresses "except those who repent, and reform". If you read carefully the Quran, you would ask yourself why would the All-Mighty stress in some verses the "except" and on some others, we don't see that. The verse on the fornicators is clear and I agree with you on repentence and the mercy of the all-mighty has not limit, HE is the forgiver but as I said that Muslim man who fornicated should marry a Sister who did the same and repented, these sisters need also to get married and God's mercy on them applies too. This is my understanding of this verse.
One thing though very important to stress the issue is not "fornication" as such, the issue is the implication of that act on the psychological state of the person and the society.Thank you Elke for your kind words. Believe me Sister I am not hard on myself. I am at peace more than those who are married or currently dating-). I like men in general and I consider sex a blessing. I remember just talking about it with my beloved when we were planning the wedding made me feel so good by the grace of the All-Mighty but as soon as this is mentioned in a non-Quranic context, I feel a great aversion for it. I think God the All-Mighty has veiled my heart everytime I am in such a context. I hope HE will continue to do so-).
Have all a good day and again my apologies if I offended any of you. May God the All-Mighty bless you all. Peace. Myr.
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Salam again Myr,
just one question
do you really believe that once a fornicator always a fornicator?
If you follow that reasoning a muslim also might not be able to become a mumin...
Things are unfortunately possible also the other way round...things do not always get better! A believers can change, don't forget the fallen angel...Life is movement and situations just like people do evolve.
I'm just afraid that you might be closing doors that God didn't ask you to close.
God bless,
Elke -
Salam again Myr,
just one question
do you really believe that once a fornicator always a fornicator?
If you follow that reasoning a muslim also might not be able to become a mumin...
Things are unfortunately possible also the other way round...things do not always get better! A believers can change, don't forget the fallen angel...Life is movement and situations just like people do evolve.
I'm just afraid that you might be closing doors that God didn't ask you to close.
God bless,
ElkeSalam Elke, all,
do you really believe that once a fornicator always a fornicator?
Umm I am under the impression you are drawing a wrong conclusion from my messages-). I think I did not successfully convey my point in my previous message-) sorry for that. The question above has not to be since as I said repentence exists and the mercy of the All-Mighty has no limit. I thought we were debating the verse on the fornicators-).
I am fine Sister for all of you who think past fornication is of no importance. All my friends and family think the same and even fall again in it and repent again-). For me, I have another undertanding of it and I shared that understanding. Thanks for caring Sister. Very much appreciated. I deeply believe in purity like the purity of Yahya (John) and Yusuf (Joseph) in Quran-) and a replica of them must exist somewhere in this world-), I deeply believe there are still good pure guys who guarded their chastity with the exception when they were married. So again, God is Merciful.
Peace. Myr.
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Salaam Myr,
In the Middle East, my home and where I live, virginity of the girl is never mentioned because it is guaranteed. The virginity of the man is also never mentioned but not because it is guaranteed but because losing it does not shame him. Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all? And that chance will be risked if she is not as perfect as the day she was born! Now the divorced woman?s chance to remarry is almost nil!
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Salam Taj,
How do you interpret 243 then?
Shakir Translation
The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.peace
SAlaam David,
I think that the Ayah speaks of multiple relationships. That is why the word fornicator is there side by side with idolater. Fornication is having more than one intimate partner (social level). Idolatry is believing in more than one god (spiritual level).
So the Ayah is a reminder that a husband who does not respect the commitment of marriage should then be smart enough to expect that his wife might act the same. How would a disloyal husband think that he can have affairs while his wife remains faithful to him!? Not that she would necessary act the same but he should expect it and if it happened then they are equals (as the Ayah reminds) and he shouldn?t be surprised. Ayah 243 is a warning to the uncommitted husbands/wives to expect the same behaviour from their spouses. That is how I understand it.
p.s. Also, the right translation should bethe fornictor does not marry but a fornictor,...
It is NOT "shall not".Taj
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Salaam,
Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all?
Are they prejudice? If not why not marry someone who is not their contryman?
Joe
You are so funny, Joe D
Of course they are prejudice, VERY cry
BUT if the girl is crazy about you then I guess you two can elope!!!
Good Luck lol -
Salaam Myr,
In the Middle East, my home and where I live, virginity of the girl is never mentioned because it is guaranteed. The virginity of the man is also never mentioned but not because it is guaranteed but because losing it does not shame him. Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all? And that chance will be risked if she is not as perfect as the day she was born! Now the divorced woman?s chance to remarry is almost nil!
Salam Taj,
I have heard about these cultural issues in my trips to several Middle East countries (Egypt, Jordan, SA, and Israel/Palestine). It is unfortunate but my understanding is it has to do with people mentaliy and not with the message in Quran. Prejudices and biases should not be an excuse to ignore God's wisdom in the revelation if we uphold Quran as the ultimate God's revelation and live by the Quran. I don't trust too much the statistics as I believe God the All-Mighty has set a balance for everything. It is the human who creates all kind of unbalances and then says "what am I going to do?"-). Marriage and children are not the end in this life but a test and sometimes it is better to stay single then to get married and be miserable. I see that in my family and with my friends. The social pressure is so huge that people will get married just for the sake to have a "married" status in a society, even if it is obvious from the begining that they are marrying partners with no moral values and principles beside a faith that has no basis.
Let's us close this subject. I think I shared my understanding of the issue and as I said in my previous message to Elke, I respect the perception of the issue by each of you even if it is different from mine.
Have a wonderful day to all of you inchallah. Peace. Myr.
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Salaamun alaikum everyone,
Sister Myr has her choice and free will and prerogative of marrying a chaste person and no one can deny that. Allah has prescribed punishment for the gross sin for adultery in this life and that punishment will be executed once the crime is proven, even if the adulterer repents. How ever once the adulterer/adulteress repents and never commits that sin again then he/she will be forgiven by Allah and wont have any punishment in the life hereafter. Allah says in Al-Quran
243 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
244 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. And this has been forbidden for the believers.
245 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
246 Except those who repent after this and do right, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.My question is that once the adulterer has been punished and repents after that, and Allah has forgiven, then would that person still be classified as an adulterer/adulteress for the purposes of marriage? My understanding from the above verses is that after true repentance and forgiveness by Allah that person should be considered chaste. However if someone commits adultery and never repents then of course he/she is forbidden for the believers. Sister Myr, the "except" is there, in 246
However as I said earlier it is your privilege and preroragative to marry an "eternal" chaste and may Allah help you meet a chaste person.I am 38 and single and still chaste Alhamdulillah, still waiting for that elusive chaste lady for the same basic reasons as sister Myr !. Just a matter of personal choice.
I would like to bring another ayat to attention
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
So Allah does stress the importance of marrying a chaste lady for the believing men, even though she might be a Jew or a Christian. The same way a chaste lady may desire only a chaste man and that wish must be respected. The following ayat illustrates the importance of being never unchaste
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
Peace,
Tanveer
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Really, now we do need to get that matrimony section working!
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
How can it be a marriage proposal, I dont know her yet
It is a proposal to get to know her if she is interested ! ? -
Salaamun alaikum Taj,
How can it be a marriage proposal, I dont know her yet
It is a proposal to get to know her if she is interested ! ?Wa 3alaykum A'ssalaam Wa Ra7matUllahi Wa Barakatuhu Tanveer,
Well, I did sense honest and sincere marriage intentions in your post, and of course this should start by getting to know her and know if she is interested. Now let's hope that she visits the forum and reads this!
Good luck wink -
Peace,
Just several points.
I think that chastity has nothing to do with virginity as some women could lose it against their will as in the case of rape. I also heard that in some sports such as horse riding and bicycling, women could lose it too.
You are right that chastity has nothing DIRECTLY to do with virginity because married and then divorced women are obviously (or most likely) not virgins but still chaste.
Your second sentence is somewhat confused however. You are confusing the 'hymen' with virginity which again has nothing DIRECTLY to do with virginity or chasteness.
But what would a good sunni girl be doing riding a bicycle or a horse?
BTW may I ask whether you are the same Tajmaha who once posted as a sunni in the past? Have your views changed and would you care to share what may have changed things if they have indeed changed?
Next point is regarding verse 243. Many people have already commented and tanverrmd has nicely pointed out that 246 shows that the taint of adultery/illegal intercourse is not permanent in the case of someone who repents.
But tanveer makes a mistake in the translation of 1928 - the words NEVER unchaste are not present. It merely says her mother was NOT a prostitute or a "loose" woman. Trying to infer more than that is reaching. See the verse is referring to the situation of Mary being a young lady in which the ignorant crowd is wondering how she has a child (not aware of Mary's situation) which from their point of view is out of marriage - although they are assuming that. The words are coming from an ignorant crowd; and this must be kept in mind.
Finally and encouragingly I point out
2432 You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married. They may marry the righteous among your male and female servants, if they are poor. GOD will enrich them from His grace. GOD is Bounteous, Knower.
The important point is righteousness. Those who have repented and act properly can be among the righteous. You must not assume to know better than the God.
Regards.
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Salaams Truth,
Good sunni girls can love sports too!!! )
Briefly
My thinking did change a lot, I would say especially regarding Hajj, Mecca. Now it more like Why? What is Hajj really and why does it have to be there!? I am into the resentful side now! Also thinking more about the physical side of ssalat. What is it really and why?
I am becoming more and more disgusted with those "mullas" who are forging the Deen to their benefit. I never thought I would be at this phase.
I am very late from the rest of you here.... -
Peace,
It's good to hear. For both things I mean - sports and your critical thinking. It's never about the time it takes, it's about whether you achieve success or not - that's the gold standard.
I don't think sport is a big thing amongst women in general and wouldn't have thought it figured highly in the traditionalist muslim female world. Well maybe target shooting would be approved
Actually if you don't mind me asking, has your view on the so called 'hijab' changed at all?
Regards.
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Salaams Truth,
Oh, yes. It did. I believe now that it is for the purpose of protecting women and not identifying them! I mean a mu7ajabah (woman wearing Hijab) would seriously be risking her life if she would walk in her 7ijab in the western world, and the opposite is true in Saudi Arabia! Sort of blending in! So whatever way a woman wears her clothes, it ought to be basically to grant her safety.