About being a virgin....
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Salam again Myr,
just one question
do you really believe that once a fornicator always a fornicator?
If you follow that reasoning a muslim also might not be able to become a mumin...
Things are unfortunately possible also the other way round...things do not always get better! A believers can change, don't forget the fallen angel...Life is movement and situations just like people do evolve.
I'm just afraid that you might be closing doors that God didn't ask you to close.
God bless,
ElkeSalam Elke, all,
do you really believe that once a fornicator always a fornicator?
Umm I am under the impression you are drawing a wrong conclusion from my messages-). I think I did not successfully convey my point in my previous message-) sorry for that. The question above has not to be since as I said repentence exists and the mercy of the All-Mighty has no limit. I thought we were debating the verse on the fornicators-).
I am fine Sister for all of you who think past fornication is of no importance. All my friends and family think the same and even fall again in it and repent again-). For me, I have another undertanding of it and I shared that understanding. Thanks for caring Sister. Very much appreciated. I deeply believe in purity like the purity of Yahya (John) and Yusuf (Joseph) in Quran-) and a replica of them must exist somewhere in this world-), I deeply believe there are still good pure guys who guarded their chastity with the exception when they were married. So again, God is Merciful.
Peace. Myr.
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Salaam Myr,
In the Middle East, my home and where I live, virginity of the girl is never mentioned because it is guaranteed. The virginity of the man is also never mentioned but not because it is guaranteed but because losing it does not shame him. Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all? And that chance will be risked if she is not as perfect as the day she was born! Now the divorced woman?s chance to remarry is almost nil!
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Salam Taj,
How do you interpret 243 then?
Shakir Translation
The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.peace
SAlaam David,
I think that the Ayah speaks of multiple relationships. That is why the word fornicator is there side by side with idolater. Fornication is having more than one intimate partner (social level). Idolatry is believing in more than one god (spiritual level).
So the Ayah is a reminder that a husband who does not respect the commitment of marriage should then be smart enough to expect that his wife might act the same. How would a disloyal husband think that he can have affairs while his wife remains faithful to him!? Not that she would necessary act the same but he should expect it and if it happened then they are equals (as the Ayah reminds) and he shouldn?t be surprised. Ayah 243 is a warning to the uncommitted husbands/wives to expect the same behaviour from their spouses. That is how I understand it.
p.s. Also, the right translation should bethe fornictor does not marry but a fornictor,...
It is NOT "shall not".Taj
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Salaam,
Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all?
Are they prejudice? If not why not marry someone who is not their contryman?
Joe
You are so funny, Joe D
Of course they are prejudice, VERY cry
BUT if the girl is crazy about you then I guess you two can elope!!!
Good Luck lol -
Salaam Myr,
In the Middle East, my home and where I live, virginity of the girl is never mentioned because it is guaranteed. The virginity of the man is also never mentioned but not because it is guaranteed but because losing it does not shame him. Girls here outnumber boys, so what are the girl's chance to get married at all? And that chance will be risked if she is not as perfect as the day she was born! Now the divorced woman?s chance to remarry is almost nil!
Salam Taj,
I have heard about these cultural issues in my trips to several Middle East countries (Egypt, Jordan, SA, and Israel/Palestine). It is unfortunate but my understanding is it has to do with people mentaliy and not with the message in Quran. Prejudices and biases should not be an excuse to ignore God's wisdom in the revelation if we uphold Quran as the ultimate God's revelation and live by the Quran. I don't trust too much the statistics as I believe God the All-Mighty has set a balance for everything. It is the human who creates all kind of unbalances and then says "what am I going to do?"-). Marriage and children are not the end in this life but a test and sometimes it is better to stay single then to get married and be miserable. I see that in my family and with my friends. The social pressure is so huge that people will get married just for the sake to have a "married" status in a society, even if it is obvious from the begining that they are marrying partners with no moral values and principles beside a faith that has no basis.
Let's us close this subject. I think I shared my understanding of the issue and as I said in my previous message to Elke, I respect the perception of the issue by each of you even if it is different from mine.
Have a wonderful day to all of you inchallah. Peace. Myr.
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Salaamun alaikum everyone,
Sister Myr has her choice and free will and prerogative of marrying a chaste person and no one can deny that. Allah has prescribed punishment for the gross sin for adultery in this life and that punishment will be executed once the crime is proven, even if the adulterer repents. How ever once the adulterer/adulteress repents and never commits that sin again then he/she will be forgiven by Allah and wont have any punishment in the life hereafter. Allah says in Al-Quran
243 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
244 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. And this has been forbidden for the believers.
245 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
246 Except those who repent after this and do right, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.My question is that once the adulterer has been punished and repents after that, and Allah has forgiven, then would that person still be classified as an adulterer/adulteress for the purposes of marriage? My understanding from the above verses is that after true repentance and forgiveness by Allah that person should be considered chaste. However if someone commits adultery and never repents then of course he/she is forbidden for the believers. Sister Myr, the "except" is there, in 246
However as I said earlier it is your privilege and preroragative to marry an "eternal" chaste and may Allah help you meet a chaste person.I am 38 and single and still chaste Alhamdulillah, still waiting for that elusive chaste lady for the same basic reasons as sister Myr !. Just a matter of personal choice.
I would like to bring another ayat to attention
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
So Allah does stress the importance of marrying a chaste lady for the believing men, even though she might be a Jew or a Christian. The same way a chaste lady may desire only a chaste man and that wish must be respected. The following ayat illustrates the importance of being never unchaste
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
Peace,
Tanveer
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Really, now we do need to get that matrimony section working!
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
How can it be a marriage proposal, I dont know her yet
It is a proposal to get to know her if she is interested ! ? -
Salaamun alaikum Taj,
How can it be a marriage proposal, I dont know her yet
It is a proposal to get to know her if she is interested ! ?Wa 3alaykum A'ssalaam Wa Ra7matUllahi Wa Barakatuhu Tanveer,
Well, I did sense honest and sincere marriage intentions in your post, and of course this should start by getting to know her and know if she is interested. Now let's hope that she visits the forum and reads this!
Good luck wink -
Peace,
Just several points.
I think that chastity has nothing to do with virginity as some women could lose it against their will as in the case of rape. I also heard that in some sports such as horse riding and bicycling, women could lose it too.
You are right that chastity has nothing DIRECTLY to do with virginity because married and then divorced women are obviously (or most likely) not virgins but still chaste.
Your second sentence is somewhat confused however. You are confusing the 'hymen' with virginity which again has nothing DIRECTLY to do with virginity or chasteness.
But what would a good sunni girl be doing riding a bicycle or a horse?
BTW may I ask whether you are the same Tajmaha who once posted as a sunni in the past? Have your views changed and would you care to share what may have changed things if they have indeed changed?
Next point is regarding verse 243. Many people have already commented and tanverrmd has nicely pointed out that 246 shows that the taint of adultery/illegal intercourse is not permanent in the case of someone who repents.
But tanveer makes a mistake in the translation of 1928 - the words NEVER unchaste are not present. It merely says her mother was NOT a prostitute or a "loose" woman. Trying to infer more than that is reaching. See the verse is referring to the situation of Mary being a young lady in which the ignorant crowd is wondering how she has a child (not aware of Mary's situation) which from their point of view is out of marriage - although they are assuming that. The words are coming from an ignorant crowd; and this must be kept in mind.
Finally and encouragingly I point out
2432 You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married. They may marry the righteous among your male and female servants, if they are poor. GOD will enrich them from His grace. GOD is Bounteous, Knower.
The important point is righteousness. Those who have repented and act properly can be among the righteous. You must not assume to know better than the God.
Regards.
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Salaams Truth,
Good sunni girls can love sports too!!! )
Briefly
My thinking did change a lot, I would say especially regarding Hajj, Mecca. Now it more like Why? What is Hajj really and why does it have to be there!? I am into the resentful side now! Also thinking more about the physical side of ssalat. What is it really and why?
I am becoming more and more disgusted with those "mullas" who are forging the Deen to their benefit. I never thought I would be at this phase.
I am very late from the rest of you here.... -
Peace,
It's good to hear. For both things I mean - sports and your critical thinking. It's never about the time it takes, it's about whether you achieve success or not - that's the gold standard.
I don't think sport is a big thing amongst women in general and wouldn't have thought it figured highly in the traditionalist muslim female world. Well maybe target shooting would be approved
Actually if you don't mind me asking, has your view on the so called 'hijab' changed at all?
Regards.
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Salaams Truth,
Oh, yes. It did. I believe now that it is for the purpose of protecting women and not identifying them! I mean a mu7ajabah (woman wearing Hijab) would seriously be risking her life if she would walk in her 7ijab in the western world, and the opposite is true in Saudi Arabia! Sort of blending in! So whatever way a woman wears her clothes, it ought to be basically to grant her safety.
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Peace Taj,
That's a very sensible way of looking at it and I appreciate you answering that. It's great to see.
Do you or can you discuss your views with your immediate contacts? BTW your English is exceptional for someone who lives in the middle east - have you grown up or had some time in the west?
Regards.
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
How can it be a marriage proposal, I dont know her yet
It is a proposal to get to know her if she is interested ! ?Wa 3alaykum A'ssalaam Wa Ra7matUllahi Wa Barakatuhu Tanveer,
Well, I did sense honest and sincere marriage intentions in your post, and of course this should start by getting to know her and know if she is interested. Now let's hope that she visits the forum and reads this!
Good luck wink
Salam Taj, all,
That's sweet of you Taj. I feel you have a good heart and may Allah reward you for your encouragement.
Tanveer seems (through his messages) to be a good believer thinker but the problem is ME-) There is a psychological barrier in me when I get to know someone with "the intention of marriage" from the begining. This barrier is even worser when this is done on Internet. If I meet a person by chance and then I realize I like this person and we are having a common ground, I would not mind to consider marriage but if I meet that same person with first the purpose of marriage, psychologically it does not go through my mind. Some of my friends tried to set me up with possible mates, I told them don't even bother because I won't show up. At the mosque it was one friend who acted on my behalf trying to help me overcome this mental barrier but I did not succeed-). I don't know why but the idea of getting to know someone with the purpose of marriage from the start completely shutts off my brain. May God the All-Mighty forgive me and help me. In the case of my fiance - may he rest in peace - and the few others men I got to know - I've got to know them through other activities which no intention of marriage but then the relation further developed. Please don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying there is something wrong with getting to know someone with the intention of marriage. What I am trying to say is while this approach may work for many of you, it does not work for me. But again, I will encourage and help my sisters and brothers to get to know each other for marriage.Please forgive me if I gave you all this impression through my messages that I was looking for a soul mate. I was just sharing my understanding of the issue raised (fornication) based on my case.
Sorry for the late reply. I am recovering from a surgery slowly but surely by the grace of the All-Mighty.
Peace and God blessings. Myr. -
Salaams Myr,
Glad to hear from you after such a long time. I hope that by now you are all well )
From the previous posts I didn't think that you were looking for a soul mate. What I got is just the opposite. What I got is this that there is no way that you will ever find someone who could meet your high standards and so reach as close to your heart as your dear lost one. That you hold your lost beloved and those feelings so hard that there is no way to let go and care to look for someone else. Even without me knowing about this barrier thing, you seemed somehow difficult to approach as a future mate! But for those who don't take rejection personally it won't hurt to try )
Now how can a woman find a husband? The arranged method does not consider feelings to say the least but it certainly saves a lot of time. The arranged method is very practical no emotions involved! A very manly sort of way roll
As a woman, I think I can understand why you have this psychological barrier in regard to that method. But can I ask you something? Do you wish that barrier to go away? If you don't like my question don't answer it, that is ok. If you don't wish to discuss anything about this post, that is also ok. Most important is that you feel comfortable, the rest should not really matter!
My best regards,
Taj
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Salaams Myr,
Glad to hear from you after such a long time. I hope that by now you are all well )
From the previous posts I didn't think that you were looking for a soul mate. What I got is just the opposite. What I got is this that there is no way that you will ever find someone who could meet your high standards and so reach as close to your heart as your dear lost one. That you hold your lost beloved and those feelings so hard that there is no way to let go and care to look for someone else. Even without me knowing about this barrier thing, you seemed somehow difficult to approach as a future mate! But for those who don't take rejection personally it won't hurt to try )
Now how can a woman find a husband? The arranged method does not consider feelings to say the least but it certainly saves a lot of time. The arranged method is very practical no emotions involved! A very manly sort of way roll
As a woman, I think I can understand why you have this psychological barrier in regard to that method. But can I ask you something? Do you wish that barrier to go away? If you don't like my question don't answer it, that is ok. If you don't wish to discuss anything about this post, that is also ok. Most important is that you feel comfortable, the rest should not really matter!
My best regards,
Taj
Salam Taj, all,
From the previous posts I didn't think that you were looking for a soul mate. What I got is just the opposite. What I got is this that there is no way that you will ever find someone who could meet your high standards and so reach as close to your heart as your dear lost one. That you hold your lost beloved and those feelings so hard that there is no way to let go and care to look for someone else. Even without me knowing about this barrier thing, you seemed somehow difficult to approach as a future mate! But for those who don't take rejection personally it won't hurt to try )
Thank you for your feedback. Very much appreciated. I know most of people would disagree with me when I say my standards are not mine but are just from the Quran. Maybe as you said, I may seem to be a person very difficult to approach because of my belief but all those that I got to know, including my deceased beloved, have never expressed this difficulty to me. It is true I don't play the "game" and I dont know how to play it-) but I believe for the true believers men, this is not a problem as it was proven to me in the past. I don't reject people just for the sake of rejecting but I go by the Quran, I try to stick to those who really fear the All-Mighty and live by the Quran and not by what is nowadays fashion. All those I "rejected" so far were fornicators-) and those who were not, they were believers in Jesus as God. So what can I do? to please Satan or to please the All-Mighty?
Now how can a woman find a husband? The arranged method does not consider feelings to say the least but it certainly saves a lot of time. The arranged method is very practical no emotions involved! A very manly sort of way roll
The arranged method is before anything else a cultural issue and that's where I believe is my psychological barrier-). I have been observing this method with my family, my friends and people around me, it is all about games and falsely portraying ourselves. Of course, this method worked for many but it doesn't work for me. I believe in the "natural method" where you get to know people under different circumstances, you build up friendship based on the love of the All-Mighty and from there the heart starts to incline or not. But this arranged method of meeting men in bars, parties, or gathering with the sole purpose of finding a mate is not processed by my brain at all-). You should really see those games, it's all about physical attractions, the brain is left for the hereafter-) even the talks are FLAT-) no thinking but only about seduction and then everybody wonders why they ended up together miserable.
As a woman, I think I can understand why you have this psychological barrier in regard to that method. But can I ask you something? Do you wish that barrier to go away? If you don't like my question don't answer it, that is ok. If you don't wish to discuss anything about this post, that is also ok. Most important is that you feel comfortable, the rest should not really matter!
Of course I wish that psychological barrier goes away but the problem is I don't believe in the arranged method-). I want to get to know Brothers (and Sisters) for what they are, as really close allies as described in Quran and not because I may have a first interest with them. The message in Quran is to build brotherhood and friendship based on mutual help and support and not because we see an interest as a mate. Once this is established, I then have no right to reject a Brother as I have no right to break God's covenant. God's mercy on me has always been unlimited, HE bestowed on me all kinds of blessings, and inchallah my case will be resolved in the future-).
Many many thanks Sister! your feedback was very helpful. May Allah bless you. Peace. Myr.
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Salaams Myr, All
Salam Taj, all,
From the previous posts I didn't think that you were looking for a soul mate. What I got is just the opposite. What I got is this that there is no way that you will ever find someone who could meet your high standards and so reach as close to your heart as your dear lost one. That you hold your lost beloved and those feelings so hard that there is no way to let go and care to look for someone else. Even without me knowing about this barrier thing, you seemed somehow difficult to approach as a future mate! But for those who don't take rejection personally it won't hurt to try
Thank you for your feedback. Very much appreciated. I know most of people would disagree with me when I say my standards are not mine but are just from the Quran. Maybe as you said, I may seem to be a person very difficult to approach because of my belief but all those that I got to know, including my deceased beloved, have never expressed this difficulty to me. It is true I don't play the "game" and I dont know how to play it-) but I believe for the true believers men, this is not a problem as it was proven to me in the past. I don't reject people just for the sake of rejecting but I go by the Quran, I try to stick to those who really fear the All-Mighty and live by the Quran and not by what is nowadays fashion. All those I "rejected" so far were fornicators-) and those who were not, they were believers in Jesus as God. So what can I do? to please Satan or to please the All-Mighty?Thank you for the reply )
Your deceased beloved did not approach you as a future mate. That is why there was no difficulty. You did not set any "barricades" ) in his way. It started very casual, I imagine, probably at work or at a joined project. So he approached you as a sister at first and then things developed. That is how I see it. So the psychological barrier was not there.
I disagree with you on the meaning of fornication or adultery. (Btw Aren't the two the same!?) Because in Arabic it is just Zina.
Until very recently I was thinking that any relationship between a woman and a man that is not approved by the society would be adultery, even if they both were single and committed to each other.
My society here considers any unwritten and un-two-witnessed realtionship as Zina. Let me give an example
A couple were in love. The woman's family didn't approve of the man. The woman got pregnant. At her fourth months her father agreed to wed her to her boyfriend. Five months later she delivered. Now the government does not consider that baby as
legitimate! It considers that baby as a child of Zina and so this baby will never have an ID, passport, legal rights, etc.. not even the name of her father her very own biological father. She would be given any random name and no legal rights whatsoever!!! How can a baby be illegitimate when the father is known and is already married to the mother!!!??? The government considers the action of the couple an act of Zina. Had the baby been born after six months instead of five, the government would recognize the baby as legitimate!!! And will take her father?s name and the rest of the rights!!! There are many children here suffering from that injustice.Another example
A man and a woman met somewhere abroad, in the Sahara, etc... They wanted to get married. They managed to get two witnesses. The two witnesses died and the paper of the marriage contract got lost somehow. The woman had a baby. Now when they returned home, my Islamic government would not recognize the baby as legitimate!!! To the Islamic government this baby is a product of Zina!!! She will not be given the name of her father!!!
Does this look like Halal to you? Does what the government do look Islamic to you or in agreement with the Quran?
In my understanding that cannot be Zina. Both couples wanted to be with their soul mates whether with a written contract or not. Isn?t God enough of a Witness?
And let me add this
If a mother of any of those cases would leave her baby in the street, so that someone would find the baby and get her to authorities, that baby would immediately be given an ID ( with any name), a passport and all the legal rights of full citizenship!!!
Another case
There are some (many) girls in some very poor places in Asia where they have to sell their honour to survive. Do you consider those girls fornicators? I don?t.((The only problem in the first two examples is when the real father would deny his fatherhood to the baby, then the woman would be in trouble because the man will not pay anything to raise that baby,etc.. but that is another story.))
I have explained my understanding of Zina in the earlier posts here or maybe in other threads, that Zina is having more than one mate at a time not committed to one.
I don?t know what is your understanding of Zina. Is it something like my Islamic government here?
People here in my country find it very easy to call others fornicators. They consider anyone who is in a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship (as the way in the West) as Zina.
My point is that maybe your standards are not the Quran standards, but you only think they are! So if you don?t mind can you explain to me your standards and what exactly you consider fornication?Now how can a woman find a husband? The arranged method does not consider feelings to say the least but it certainly saves a lot of time. The arranged method is very practical no emotions involved! A very manly sort of way roll
The arranged method is before anything else a cultural issue and that's where I believe is my psychological barrier-). I have been observing this method with my family, my friends and people around me, it is all about games and falsely portraying ourselves. Of course, this method worked for many but it doesn't work for me. I believe in the "natural method" where you get to know people under different circumstances, you build up friendship based on the love of the All-Mighty and from there the heart starts to incline or not. But this arranged method of meeting men in bars, parties, or gathering with the sole purpose of finding a mate is not processed by my brain at all-). You should really see those games, it's all about physical attractions, the brain is left for the hereafter-) even the talks are FLAT-) no thinking but only about seduction and then everybody wonders why they ended up together miserable.
Here, the girl would be very shy at that one and only meeting with her husband to be, with one of her family elder members present. She wouldn?t speak her mind, that is if she managed to speak at all! Even her parents would not allow her to talk that is if she has the courage to. And within a week the two would be married and within a year time they would be having a baby. And within seven years they would be having six to seven kids. Everything is so crazily quick. And girls would marry at a very young age and so are the boys.As a woman, I think I can understand why you have this psychological barrier in regard to that method. But can I ask you something? Do you wish that barrier to go away? If you don't like my question don't answer it, that is ok. If you don't wish to discuss anything about this post, that is also ok. Most important is that you feel comfortable, the rest should not really matter!
Of course I wish that psychological barrier goes away but the problem is I don't believe in the arranged method-). I want to get to know Brothers (and Sisters) for what they are, as really close allies as described in Quran and not because I may have a first interest with them. The message in Quran is to build brotherhood and friendship based on mutual help and support and not because we see an interest as a mate. Once this is established, I then have no right to reject a Brother as I have no right to break God's covenant. God's mercy on me has always been unlimited, HE bestowed on me all kinds of blessings, and inchallah my case will be resolved in the future-).
I think that you can overcome this barrier. This is a mental thing and you can change it.
Take a look at this
The Secrets of the Power of Intention
Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at will change!
by Wayne DyerMany many thanks Sister! your feedback was very helpful. May Allah bless you. Peace. Myr.
Thanks to you! I like to read your posts D
God Bless you too.