Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God
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Peace all,
When browsing past threads, from time to time I've heard the argument that God, as He is written about in Qu'ran, does not display jealousy, anger, and other "human" qualities that are supposedly attributed to Him in the Torah and Bible. He is about all that.
So what is this anger and wrath that is mentioned in the Qu'ran? Is it the same anger and wrath that we as humans are used to experiencing? Is it different?
Why does He curse people? Why does He nullify all their good works? Why does He seek to humiliate? Why does He seek revenge? What aim does any of this achieve? Revenge is a very human and imperfect action, that often solves nothing and only leads to more disaster. It's ineffective. I've also always thought of anger as a very human emotion, a very raw one that can often be uncontrollable or unpredictable. It's imperfect as well. So why is it attributed to Him through these verses? Especially when He is said to be free of need (3515) - Then what use is anger, revenge, curses, humiliation, nullification of good works, etc.? How is it in any way productive?
Hi Comrox,
Translations are nothing more then opinions of the translator.
From my own understanding of the quran is that God is just, so every soul will get exactly what it earns. You can call it revenge, curse, humilation or whatever from God, but it is nothing more then what that person has earned according to his/her deeds.
If I am not wrong I think I read somewhere that you read only translations, I know that especially in the beginning translations are like the only option we have but at some time you should really try to learn the characters. I truly believe that when you do that, a new world will open for you, and will see through those primitive understandings. And NO, it's not hard to learn the characters, I am not the smartest person around and I managed to learn them so for you it should be a piece of cake.
560 "Say 'Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worse place and are more astray from the right path.'"
Red )
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But how do you know, prehaps hitler repented to his lord a sincere repentance before he died and was redeemed.. i do not know. neither do you. only God knows
Peace
I am very sure that it does not work like that, that is not justice and God is Just. As far as I know, there is no forgiveness for murder (= killing a soul without justice).
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I am very sure that it does not work like that, that is not justice and God is Just. As far as I know, there is no forgiveness for murder (= killing a soul without justice).
Peace, i believe you are incorrect.
God Forgives whomever he wills, whatever he wills. << full stop
read 272-4, it gives the example of when some from the children of israel killed someone, followed by an example how how God ressurected them, Followed by an example of how after that they hardened there hearts, but crucialy.. followed by an example of what can become of a hard heart..
That sign increased my faith, i used to be very hard hearted, because before i turned to God i was a huge transgressor, but i believe God has purified me alot since then, though surely i have a huge way to go, may my lord help me.
Moses killed a man, it may not have been murder, i do not know, it may have been manslaughter, but none the less, he did wrong, and his lord forgave him.
is there unforgivable sin?
yes indeed, 448,4116, but it is not murder.
also, in my understanding, God informs us that he will not forgive certain people, and theese people are
mushrikoon,kafiroon,munafiqeen -or-
assosciators with God, rejectors and Hypocrites.Other than that, in my knowledge, of the quran at least, he does not say anyone else is unforgivable..
of course, there is more to it than that.. God also informs us that,
Killing an innocent is like killing all of mankind..
would God forgive someone who killed all of mankind?
That is HIS judgement, not mine, yours or anyone elses. God does what he wills, glorified is He. He forgives whoever he wills, and he punishes whoever he wills.
Am i justifying evil? no way, it is obviously a great transgression to murder, and one of the fundamental and clear laws of God.
There are great examples in the accounts of the gospels, for example
luke 13
Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, do you think that these were sinners beyond all men who lived in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but if you do not repent, you will all perish in the same way.matthew 5
`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.Peace.
EDIT of course this is only my understanding, i may be inccorrect, and probably am in parts, do not believe what i say, rather, what God has revealed.
also, the verses from gospel accounts i quoted are YLT (youngs literal translation)Peace
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Another Great example, a parable I love dearly, from the account of the gospel, by luke (youngs literal translation)
Chapter 15
And all the tax-gatherers and the sinners were coming nigh to him, to hear him, and the Pharisees and the scribes were murmuring, saying--This one doth receive sinners, and doth eat with them.' And he spake unto them this simile, saying,
What man of you having a hundred sheep, and having lost one out of them, doth not leave behind the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go on after the lost one, till he may find it? and having found, he doth lay it on his shoulders rejoicing, and having come to the house, he doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I found my sheep--the lost one.I say to you, that so joy shall be in the heaven over one sinner reforming, rather than over ninety-nine righteous men, who have no need of reformation. `Or what woman having ten drachms, if she may lose one drachm, doth not light a lamp, and sweep the house, and seek carefully till that she may find? and having found, she doth call together the female friends and the neighbours, saying, Rejoice with me, for I found the drachm that I lost.`So I say to you, joy doth come before the messengers of God over one sinner reforming.'
And he said,
A certain man had two sons, and the younger of them said to the father, Father, give me the portion of the substance falling to me , and he divided to them the living.And not many days after, having gathered all together, the younger son went abroad to a far country, and there he scattered his substance, living riotously; and he having spent all, there came a mighty famine on that country, and himself began to be in want; and having gone on, he joined himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him to the fields to feed swine, and he was desirous to fill his belly from the husks that the swine were eating, and no one was giving to him.And having come to himself, he said, How many hirelings of my father have a superabundance of bread, and I here with hunger am perishing! having risen, I will go on unto my father, and will say to him, Father, I did sin--to the heaven, and before thee, and no more am I worthy to be called thy son; make me as one of thy hirelings.And having risen, he went unto his own father, and he being yet far distant, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and having ran he fell upon his neck and kissed him; and the son said to him, Father, I did sin--to the heaven, and before thee, and no more am I worthy to be called thy son.And the father said unto his servants, Bring forth the first robe, and clothe him, and give a ring for his hand, and sandals for the feet; and having brought the fatted calf, kill it , and having eaten, we may be merry, because this my son was dead, and did live again, and he was lost, and was found; and they began to be merry.And his elder son was in a field, and as, coming, he drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing, and having called near one of the young men, he was inquiring what these things might be, and he said to him--Thy brother is arrived, and thy father did kill the fatted calf, because in health he did receive him back.And he was angry, and would not go in, therefore his father, having come forth, was entreating him; and he answering said to the father, Lo, so many years I do serve thee, and never thy command did I transgress, and to me thou didst never give a kid, that with my friends I might make merry; but when thy son--this one who did devour thy living with harlots--came, thou didst kill to him the fatted calf.And he said to him, Child, thou art always with me, and all my things are thine; but to be merry, and to be glad, it was needful, because this thy brother was dead, and did live again, he was lost, and was found.' -
Peace all,
The Qur'an ays not the tyniest bit of good will be ignored nor the tyiest bit of evil, therefore nothign nulifie nothing, wverything will be weighted.
How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965
EDIT I examined the verses surrounding 3965 and it seems that they are speaking of one (the rejecter) who has turned away in arrogance (3959), has not chosen a righteous path (3957), and has ordered to serve other than God (3964). And I think we all know, specifically, what the definition of righteousness is, as per 2177. Although it seems worth noting that God is only speaking of one aspect of a disbeliever, setting up partners, that equates to nullification of deeds (in 3965). Which then begs the question why did He single out setting up partners?
Qur'an Corpus translates abia as worthless. I guess worthless sounds better.
A to who is more evil or les only God knows. People are very fond of judging, I guess it gives a good sensation, and socieies have laws that in rinciple should serve for their survival or prosperity, but judge as to worth and goodness or evilnes of each person is too much of pretending for a human.
Hm I think I get what you mean, I suppose.
The permissible in tat sense is judging for the purpose of keeing us as safe as possible from evil or other people for whom we may fear, but the value of human judgement on that count is nothing but empty pride and o top of it, there is no need for it.
Salaam
Not sure I understand completely what you mean here.
Peace.
Prehaps we just leave Gods names alone, and not distort them? prehaps as, god is the just, we call it what it is, justice...
What do you mean, "distorting them"? I don't feel that I'm doing that here. I'm displaying English translations of verses that appear to be in the Qur'an.
i think the quote you shared has some points in it that i can agree with, and some i dont so much, but i appreciate it none the less.
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What about nullification of good works? Will we not be judged on every thing? Although I suppose concerning people like Hitler who is responsible for killing millions, I don't think he deserves for whatever good he has done to be counted.
"Everything is made just in the end..
Is killing the worse sin? no.. it is not. although killing innoccents, certainly is at the top somewhere.. especialy those who trust in God.
But how do you know, prehaps hitler repented to his lord a sincere repentance before he died and was redeemed.. i do not know. neither do you. only God knows
Peace
I agree that only God knows. But I would find it hard to believe in his case.
However, I've visited a prison once, and got to hear 4 women's stories. One of the women's crimes was gang murder. It was a crime she committed years ago. You could tell that all the women had changed and grown - they had learned from their experiences and their friendships that had developed during their prison sentences. This kind of person - who has spent a lot of time in reflection, who has matured, who has reformed - I think this person may find forgiveness and peace, if God wills.
Hi Comrox,
Translations are nothing more then opinions of the translator.
From my own understanding of the quran is that God is just, so every soul will get exactly what it earns. You can call it revenge, curse, humilation or whatever from God, but it is nothing more then what that person has earned according to his/her deeds.
If I am not wrong I think I read somewhere that you read only translations, I know that especially in the beginning translations are like the only option we have but at some time you should really try to learn the characters. I truly believe that when you do that, a new world will open for you, and will see through those primitive understandings. And NO, it's not hard to learn the characters, I am not the smartest person around and I managed to learn them so for you it should be a piece of cake.
I do read only translations, and I'm aware that it is a problem. One day I hope to reach the understanding that you, and a lot of other people on this forum, have. I've tried looking at or downloading lane lexicons online but I got confused and couldn't understand how to access them once I downloaded them... I would prefer physical books but the ones I've seen on Amazon are so expensive. ( Excuses, I know.
How did you start learning if I may ask?
Red
?
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Salam,
The Bible makes God seem like a child throwing a tantrum and randomly getting angry with His creation. The Quran indicates that God's anger and wrath come about through specific systemic actions, not just randomly. That is the difference I observe.
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The Bible makes God seem like a child throwing a tantrum and randomly getting angry with His creation. The Quran indicates that God's anger and wrath come about through specific systemic actions, not just randomly.
Yet both shows a pissed off and childish God..
You dare to think his book sucks? You will be tortured for all eternity...
Man.. the semitic God have a real mental problems.. He need to see a shrink..
Even JK Rowling is much wiser than He is.. at least she's able to handle critics gracefully... and never threatened anyone who hate her books.. -
Yet both shows a pissed off and childish God..
You dare to think his book sucks? You will be tortured for all eternity...
Man.. the semitic God have a real mental problems.. He need to see a shrink..
Even JK Rowling is much wiser than He is.. at least she's able to handle critics gracefully... and never threatened anyone who hate her books..Largely the argument that I've seen atheists use against the holy books.
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Salam,
The Bible makes God seem like a child throwing a tantrum and randomly getting angry with His creation. The Quran indicates that God's anger and wrath come about through specific systemic actions, not just randomly. That is the difference I observe.
peace,
the torah was not revealed in english
it is in ancient hebrew, a very simple language, semetic language, especialy the older, is not easily translated, yet easily understood by those who god blesses with understanding of.
the quran testifies to the truth of the torah as it is a 'muhaymen' over it. anyone who does not trust in, and judge by what god has revealed, those are disobediant and they do not trust in god
peace
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Largely the argument that I've seen atheists use against the holy books.
Against some holy books I might say, NOT ALL holy books claimed to be written by God and contain 'torture for all eternity' to any readers who dare to criticize or putting a bad review . "God wrote / authored books" can only be found within semitic tradition (Egypt, Israelite, Arabs) and not on any other traditions.
And by the way, the book of Gospels and Tao The Ching (The virtue of the Tao) never claimed to be written by God..
Oddly enough, God there seems to be wiser and benevolent.. -
Peace Jafar.
Never mind books. What do you think about a system with rewards and sanctions?
Let us assume now, I am talking about your "god", do you expect him to treat the good and the evil the same? Is that just?
The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just . His system of fairness and justice contains rewards and sanctions ( according to HIS knowledge of His creations, not my logic, your logic or any of His creations logic!)..
He forgives whom He wants to forgive or otherwise. He does what He wants according to His knowledge and wisdom of everything He created. He is fair and can be trusted 100% to judge fairly and equitably.
If you are asking Him not to punish, then why not ask the "created" to choose wisely . He already said " What would GOD gain from punishing His creation if they do good and shun/avoid doing evil".
The consequences are laws, they cannot be taken away.
You talk about common sense,love, compassion, forgiveness and expect them from a god ,but what about justice fairness and getting what one deserves /rights.
Should GOD not be entitled to judge ?
Or give us your take how your "god" can be just then?GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is going to get His way always and not because He is angre or happy or whatever, but becaause He isthe crator annd Owner andruler of absolutely everything. If He created something for a purpose, He will most certainly get that somethig fulfill its purpose.
God created yinn and humannto worship Him, to cknowledge him. Acknowledge Him they will by hook or crook. No escaape from that. For that God uses His means. His "anger" is a means.
Othr than that everything, evryone, evetullay returnns to Him. Nothing is eternal, only Him.
So we will al return to HIm by fusion. That is the final bottom line of God's love. We are born for it. It is our destiny.
We will reach it and what we seemigly all wish is to reach it through the less painful way we can.
God shows as the pain in order to avoid it and what His attitude will be rgarding that pain.
Of coursse he is Just He says o time and again. So let us also try to be just. H i ot going to wrong us any little bit, but why should we wrongn ourselves. When we are unjust it is not to Him, nothing can touch Him, we are unjust to ourselve, we cheat ourselve. So God opensour eyes. Light blinds us. Fire rifies us.
Salaam
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Peace Jafar.
Never mind books. What do you think about a system with rewards and sanctions?
Let us assume now, I am talking about your "god", do you expect him to treat the good and the evil the same? Is that just?
The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just . His system of fairness and justice contains rewards and sanctions ( according to HIS knowledge of His creations, not my logic, your logic or any of His creations logic!)..
He forgives whom He wants to forgive or otherwise. He does what He wants according to His knowledge and wisdom of everything He created. He is fair and can be trusted 100% to judge fairly and equitably.
If you are asking Him not to punish, then why not ask the "created" to choose wisely . He already said " What would GOD gain from punishing His creation if they do good and shun/avoid doing evil".
The consequences are laws, they cannot be taken away.
You talk about common sense,love, compassion, forgiveness and expect them from a god ,but what about justice fairness and getting what one deserves /rights.
Should GOD not be entitled to judge ?
Or give us your take how your "god" can be just then?GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace,
Alhamdullilah, good logic, good logic, you have a very fitting name )
I agree. Gods justice is just.
6835-6
Should We then make the accepters/submitters like the guilty/criminals? What is for you? How do you judge?
If God did not recompense us for our good and our evil, then what kind of justice is that? God is the most Just of Judges, and his judgement is supreme, perfect, and fair.
God is Gracious, Kind, Merciful, Forgiving, Loving, Pardoning, and full of mercy despite our transgressions, but he will not fail or decline to recompense us for exactly what we deserve.
Peace
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The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just .
To pass a "Just Judgement" one need to be wise right?
Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book? or think that the story that you wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?
On that ground, JK Rowling is much wiser and more just than the semitic God..
On TTC for example, we can read that Tao is all wise and all humble...
And don't worry, even if you don't like TTC or don't believe in any of the thing being told there, Tao will not torture you for all eternity..On that ground, I say Tao is much wise and more just than the semitic God..
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To pass a "Just Judgement" one need to be wise right?
Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book? or think that the story that he wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?
On that ground, JK Rowling is much wiser and more just than the semitic God..
I would say it is wise, that If One gives someone everything, life, provisions, answers their prayers and blessings that we cannot account, and they turn around and reject them, despite clear proof, despite their very soul bearing witness to the fact, that they are entitled to do what they will with that person who rejected them.
We belong to God. We are his to do with as he pleases,
glory be to Him! and exalted is He! he is not a 'semetic god' he is the RABB of all that is..
serve jk roling if you will, but they wont save you on the day of recompense.
Peace.
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serve jk roling if you will, but they wont save you on the day of recompense.
Peace.
Suit yourselves mate, if you want want to worship a book..
But please bear in mind the rights of billions of others human who choose to not to worship a book..
And no worries, my God will not torture you for all eternity just because you worship a book...
Instead, my God will continue to send out revelation to reveal mysteries which were unknown by human and falsehood that was made by some human. Including falsehood within your idolized book (or books, whatever it is..) -
I do Not serve or worship a book, I serve the one who created all life, and to whom it will all be returned, The one who revealed, out of his mercy, a guidance and a light for us, a criterion so that we may judge with truth, and so that we may correct our way.
We are here to serve our Lord, and to uphold the Bond that he enjoined upon us.
If you make a contract with an employer, for equitable service and wages, and then you go and dishonour your contract, then your employer will fire you, depending on the way in which you dishonoured your contract, depends on how you are held accountable.
If you go and trash your employers house, spend all his money, go around defaming him, etc, you will likely be taken to court, and sent to prison, or held accountable in some other way,
If you honour your contract, your employer will give you the wages he promised you, If you do above and beyond, he might give you a bonus, promote you, etc.
For each of us is a reward according to what we do in this life, if we do well, we get a good recompense, if we dishonour, we are held accountable, if we do average, prehaps we break even.
Dopeople not see the examples that God gives us to learn from in this life??
do they not understand??
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Peace all,
How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965
EDIT I examined the verses surrounding 3965 and it seems that they are speaking of one (the rejecter) who has turned away in arrogance (3959), has not chosen a righteous path (3957), and has ordered to serve other than God (3964). And I think we all know, specifically, what the definition of righteousness is, as per 2177. Although it seems worth noting that God is only speaking of one aspect of a disbeliever, setting up partners, that equates to nullification of deeds (in 3965). Which then begs the question why did He single out setting up partners?
Qur'an Corpus translates abia as worthless. I guess worthless sounds better.
Suppose you write a letter to order a blanket, suppose you send it to a shop for books. The order may beompletely correct, with all the specifications and everything. but you sent it to the wrong address. You receive no answer or you receive an answer which tells you that they cannot erve that. YOu have to sed it to correct address and when you do you will get your blanket.
Of course, it is not the same, but it is not the sameon many counts. Le tus change to another supposition you are in lve with a boy who is good, patient, charming, wise, but you do not know him visually nd somehow you get oncufse and look at a young which through confusion you think it is him, you peak with him but sort of you are nnot getting the wisdom, the patient listeing, the kindness and understndig and the enerosity which you were expecting... Till you do not go to the right person it will be like that
Of course God is not a nice boy, nor a shop for books and is above ll that and inn fact controls shops of all kids and all kinds of boys, that the fact is that there is something wrong with you because you do not give enough attention to what you do or you are gullible and si a good lookig face and think that that will go with a good heart. There may be something that makes yous see what you fncy rather tha reality, if it is lack of maturity or concentration, not somethig you do out of contumacy, I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses. It is not that God feel so insulted that he needs to punish you, no it is you who needs to be punished so that you tone down and come back to reality. When you do, you will gt all your points back if you recover from your dellusion.
Hm I think I get what you mean, I suppose.
Not sure I understand completely what you mean here.
Let us say that you know your daughter or your son is befriending a person who might be in affairs which are dishonest or dangerous. You may be sure, the inn that case of course you will protect your people to the best of your ability. But still unless it is necessary to protect others yu will not shout it around. If all you have is suspicion, you will state so to your people and ak them to be very carefulnd watch out nd if they see any signs of it being true get out of the way or if they don't but stillthere is suspicion to be very careful and don't tak any steps that could ot be undone.
But of course, less still than in the prvious case, you ar not going to spread it all around.
Salaam
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Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book?
or think that the story that you wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?Salaam/Peace Jafar,
AL-LAH does not torture anybody;
because here, this is HIS Most Fair & Most Equitable Judgment======================
160- Whoever comes with a good deed, he/she will receive ten times its worth;
and whoever comes with a sin, he/she will only be recompensed its like; they will not be wronged.6/160
So, only if someone tortures or burns someone else,
and does never want to repent and reform himself/herself, thereafter,
he/she will have to taste the torture he/she himself/herself committed here (=85/4-10 & 40/17, 40).Therefore, if someone reads AL-LAH's Scripture
and witnesses all such Most Superb and Matchless MIRACLES
which clearly and unmistakably proves that this is absolutely Not a fiction or fantasy, at all,
herehttp//www.19covenant19.com/Forum.html
but he/she still doesn't like HIS Scripture and still writes a bad review about HIS Scripture,
and still unjustly calling it a fiction or fantasy,even then he/she will Not be burned for eternity, --(unless he/she starts to burn the believers in HIS Scripture here
and never wants to repent thereafter for eternity =85/4-10 & 6/27-2--but AL-LAH (and those who believe in HIM) will only do this,
as a Most Fair & Most Equitable RecompenseHE (and those who believe in HIM) will Not like his/her book (=i.e. atheistic or agnostic or deistic ideology, or whatever else he/she advocates for)
and write a bad review about his/her book and will think that the story that he/she wrote (=which contains atheistic or agnostic or deistic idiocies & atrocities,
.......) are merely their own fiction and fantasy, and utter idiocies.And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.Even then AL-LAH keeps the Door open for those who will truly and sincerely repent and return to HIM,
because HE is The Best Forgiver & The Most Merciful. (=25/69-71 & 11/107)I think this is Absolutely Most Equitable & Most Fair.
Who can blame AL-LAH for HIS Perfect Justice, here and in the hereafter, always and forever. (=6/160 & 40/17, 40 & 85/4-10 & .....)So, we should immediately repent and return to HIM, and should wholeheartedly love and support HIM,
and should always stand by HIM Alone, always and forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=23/1-11 & 25/69-71)Remain in peace/salaam.
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And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.Alhamdullilah, What a great example!