Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God
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Largely the argument that I've seen atheists use against the holy books.
Against some holy books I might say, NOT ALL holy books claimed to be written by God and contain 'torture for all eternity' to any readers who dare to criticize or putting a bad review . "God wrote / authored books" can only be found within semitic tradition (Egypt, Israelite, Arabs) and not on any other traditions.
And by the way, the book of Gospels and Tao The Ching (The virtue of the Tao) never claimed to be written by God..
Oddly enough, God there seems to be wiser and benevolent.. -
Peace Jafar.
Never mind books. What do you think about a system with rewards and sanctions?
Let us assume now, I am talking about your "god", do you expect him to treat the good and the evil the same? Is that just?
The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just . His system of fairness and justice contains rewards and sanctions ( according to HIS knowledge of His creations, not my logic, your logic or any of His creations logic!)..
He forgives whom He wants to forgive or otherwise. He does what He wants according to His knowledge and wisdom of everything He created. He is fair and can be trusted 100% to judge fairly and equitably.
If you are asking Him not to punish, then why not ask the "created" to choose wisely . He already said " What would GOD gain from punishing His creation if they do good and shun/avoid doing evil".
The consequences are laws, they cannot be taken away.
You talk about common sense,love, compassion, forgiveness and expect them from a god ,but what about justice fairness and getting what one deserves /rights.
Should GOD not be entitled to judge ?
Or give us your take how your "god" can be just then?GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is going to get His way always and not because He is angre or happy or whatever, but becaause He isthe crator annd Owner andruler of absolutely everything. If He created something for a purpose, He will most certainly get that somethig fulfill its purpose.
God created yinn and humannto worship Him, to cknowledge him. Acknowledge Him they will by hook or crook. No escaape from that. For that God uses His means. His "anger" is a means.
Othr than that everything, evryone, evetullay returnns to Him. Nothing is eternal, only Him.
So we will al return to HIm by fusion. That is the final bottom line of God's love. We are born for it. It is our destiny.
We will reach it and what we seemigly all wish is to reach it through the less painful way we can.
God shows as the pain in order to avoid it and what His attitude will be rgarding that pain.
Of coursse he is Just He says o time and again. So let us also try to be just. H i ot going to wrong us any little bit, but why should we wrongn ourselves. When we are unjust it is not to Him, nothing can touch Him, we are unjust to ourselve, we cheat ourselve. So God opensour eyes. Light blinds us. Fire rifies us.
Salaam
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Peace Jafar.
Never mind books. What do you think about a system with rewards and sanctions?
Let us assume now, I am talking about your "god", do you expect him to treat the good and the evil the same? Is that just?
The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just . His system of fairness and justice contains rewards and sanctions ( according to HIS knowledge of His creations, not my logic, your logic or any of His creations logic!)..
He forgives whom He wants to forgive or otherwise. He does what He wants according to His knowledge and wisdom of everything He created. He is fair and can be trusted 100% to judge fairly and equitably.
If you are asking Him not to punish, then why not ask the "created" to choose wisely . He already said " What would GOD gain from punishing His creation if they do good and shun/avoid doing evil".
The consequences are laws, they cannot be taken away.
You talk about common sense,love, compassion, forgiveness and expect them from a god ,but what about justice fairness and getting what one deserves /rights.
Should GOD not be entitled to judge ?
Or give us your take how your "god" can be just then?GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace,
Alhamdullilah, good logic, good logic, you have a very fitting name )
I agree. Gods justice is just.
6835-6
Should We then make the accepters/submitters like the guilty/criminals? What is for you? How do you judge?
If God did not recompense us for our good and our evil, then what kind of justice is that? God is the most Just of Judges, and his judgement is supreme, perfect, and fair.
God is Gracious, Kind, Merciful, Forgiving, Loving, Pardoning, and full of mercy despite our transgressions, but he will not fail or decline to recompense us for exactly what we deserve.
Peace
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The "GOD" I know ( I am talking about the Lord of everyone and everything, the ONE and ONLY GOD) is just .
To pass a "Just Judgement" one need to be wise right?
Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book? or think that the story that you wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?
On that ground, JK Rowling is much wiser and more just than the semitic God..
On TTC for example, we can read that Tao is all wise and all humble...
And don't worry, even if you don't like TTC or don't believe in any of the thing being told there, Tao will not torture you for all eternity..On that ground, I say Tao is much wise and more just than the semitic God..
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To pass a "Just Judgement" one need to be wise right?
Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book? or think that the story that he wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?
On that ground, JK Rowling is much wiser and more just than the semitic God..
I would say it is wise, that If One gives someone everything, life, provisions, answers their prayers and blessings that we cannot account, and they turn around and reject them, despite clear proof, despite their very soul bearing witness to the fact, that they are entitled to do what they will with that person who rejected them.
We belong to God. We are his to do with as he pleases,
glory be to Him! and exalted is He! he is not a 'semetic god' he is the RABB of all that is..
serve jk roling if you will, but they wont save you on the day of recompense.
Peace.
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serve jk roling if you will, but they wont save you on the day of recompense.
Peace.
Suit yourselves mate, if you want want to worship a book..
But please bear in mind the rights of billions of others human who choose to not to worship a book..
And no worries, my God will not torture you for all eternity just because you worship a book...
Instead, my God will continue to send out revelation to reveal mysteries which were unknown by human and falsehood that was made by some human. Including falsehood within your idolized book (or books, whatever it is..) -
I do Not serve or worship a book, I serve the one who created all life, and to whom it will all be returned, The one who revealed, out of his mercy, a guidance and a light for us, a criterion so that we may judge with truth, and so that we may correct our way.
We are here to serve our Lord, and to uphold the Bond that he enjoined upon us.
If you make a contract with an employer, for equitable service and wages, and then you go and dishonour your contract, then your employer will fire you, depending on the way in which you dishonoured your contract, depends on how you are held accountable.
If you go and trash your employers house, spend all his money, go around defaming him, etc, you will likely be taken to court, and sent to prison, or held accountable in some other way,
If you honour your contract, your employer will give you the wages he promised you, If you do above and beyond, he might give you a bonus, promote you, etc.
For each of us is a reward according to what we do in this life, if we do well, we get a good recompense, if we dishonour, we are held accountable, if we do average, prehaps we break even.
Dopeople not see the examples that God gives us to learn from in this life??
do they not understand??
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Peace all,
How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965
EDIT I examined the verses surrounding 3965 and it seems that they are speaking of one (the rejecter) who has turned away in arrogance (3959), has not chosen a righteous path (3957), and has ordered to serve other than God (3964). And I think we all know, specifically, what the definition of righteousness is, as per 2177. Although it seems worth noting that God is only speaking of one aspect of a disbeliever, setting up partners, that equates to nullification of deeds (in 3965). Which then begs the question why did He single out setting up partners?
Qur'an Corpus translates abia as worthless. I guess worthless sounds better.
Suppose you write a letter to order a blanket, suppose you send it to a shop for books. The order may beompletely correct, with all the specifications and everything. but you sent it to the wrong address. You receive no answer or you receive an answer which tells you that they cannot erve that. YOu have to sed it to correct address and when you do you will get your blanket.
Of course, it is not the same, but it is not the sameon many counts. Le tus change to another supposition you are in lve with a boy who is good, patient, charming, wise, but you do not know him visually nd somehow you get oncufse and look at a young which through confusion you think it is him, you peak with him but sort of you are nnot getting the wisdom, the patient listeing, the kindness and understndig and the enerosity which you were expecting... Till you do not go to the right person it will be like that
Of course God is not a nice boy, nor a shop for books and is above ll that and inn fact controls shops of all kids and all kinds of boys, that the fact is that there is something wrong with you because you do not give enough attention to what you do or you are gullible and si a good lookig face and think that that will go with a good heart. There may be something that makes yous see what you fncy rather tha reality, if it is lack of maturity or concentration, not somethig you do out of contumacy, I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses. It is not that God feel so insulted that he needs to punish you, no it is you who needs to be punished so that you tone down and come back to reality. When you do, you will gt all your points back if you recover from your dellusion.
Hm I think I get what you mean, I suppose.
Not sure I understand completely what you mean here.
Let us say that you know your daughter or your son is befriending a person who might be in affairs which are dishonest or dangerous. You may be sure, the inn that case of course you will protect your people to the best of your ability. But still unless it is necessary to protect others yu will not shout it around. If all you have is suspicion, you will state so to your people and ak them to be very carefulnd watch out nd if they see any signs of it being true get out of the way or if they don't but stillthere is suspicion to be very careful and don't tak any steps that could ot be undone.
But of course, less still than in the prvious case, you ar not going to spread it all around.
Salaam
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Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book?
or think that the story that you wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?Salaam/Peace Jafar,
AL-LAH does not torture anybody;
because here, this is HIS Most Fair & Most Equitable Judgment======================
160- Whoever comes with a good deed, he/she will receive ten times its worth;
and whoever comes with a sin, he/she will only be recompensed its like; they will not be wronged.6/160
So, only if someone tortures or burns someone else,
and does never want to repent and reform himself/herself, thereafter,
he/she will have to taste the torture he/she himself/herself committed here (=85/4-10 & 40/17, 40).Therefore, if someone reads AL-LAH's Scripture
and witnesses all such Most Superb and Matchless MIRACLES
which clearly and unmistakably proves that this is absolutely Not a fiction or fantasy, at all,
herehttp//www.19covenant19.com/Forum.html
but he/she still doesn't like HIS Scripture and still writes a bad review about HIS Scripture,
and still unjustly calling it a fiction or fantasy,even then he/she will Not be burned for eternity, --(unless he/she starts to burn the believers in HIS Scripture here
and never wants to repent thereafter for eternity =85/4-10 & 6/27-2--but AL-LAH (and those who believe in HIM) will only do this,
as a Most Fair & Most Equitable RecompenseHE (and those who believe in HIM) will Not like his/her book (=i.e. atheistic or agnostic or deistic ideology, or whatever else he/she advocates for)
and write a bad review about his/her book and will think that the story that he/she wrote (=which contains atheistic or agnostic or deistic idiocies & atrocities,
.......) are merely their own fiction and fantasy, and utter idiocies.And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.Even then AL-LAH keeps the Door open for those who will truly and sincerely repent and return to HIM,
because HE is The Best Forgiver & The Most Merciful. (=25/69-71 & 11/107)I think this is Absolutely Most Equitable & Most Fair.
Who can blame AL-LAH for HIS Perfect Justice, here and in the hereafter, always and forever. (=6/160 & 40/17, 40 & 85/4-10 & .....)So, we should immediately repent and return to HIM, and should wholeheartedly love and support HIM,
and should always stand by HIM Alone, always and forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=23/1-11 & 25/69-71)Remain in peace/salaam.
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And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.Alhamdullilah, What a great example!
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Peace Comrox,
You hit the mother lode with this one!
I see some more troubling verses in common between our lists! Are you sure you don't have spiritual powers and secretly copying from my list?
This is exactly the first thing that alerted me to the possibility of tampering with the original positive channeling to the Prophet and had my alarm bells going. The archeological discovery of Sanaa manuscripts dating to the time of the Prophet confirmed my growing suspicions and provided indisputable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering. Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reason (numerous signs), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I am 100% certain that the original positive channeling did not have any negative messages. I am willing to bet my life on it. I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of the original text for confirmation, which I am pretty sure is preserved somewhere on this Earth (unless already discovered and placed under lock and key by the authorities ) Just like what they did to Sanaa manuscripts.
You are right. All those qualities indicate a god that is separate from the creation (which contradicts 2115 right away). A jealous, vengeful, wrathful, needy and insecure god. Not the MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST INFINITE CREATOR.
I have spent years reflecting on this, interpreting, re interpreting, discussing, using the quranic methodology, but doesn't make any sense no matter how you interpret the Arabic.
Please go through my following post in past which dissects this in great detail and focuses on the most powerful evidence based on conscience, mind and reasoning (what the quran itself recommends us to use for verification of its truth)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636
Let me give you an example. If your heart cell or nerve cell malfunctions, will you get angry and cut it off from your body and "burn" it or would you try to repair the damage, if you had unlimited powers of healing and regeneration? Your kidney not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your heart not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your liver not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your eye not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Not just cut them off and burn them but be angry at them and curse them. Nice solutions (sarcastic) especially when you have the power to regenerate and heal them completely.
Some verse examples below. There are more but I felt that this was a long enough list.
493 "And whoever kills a believer intentionally, then his recompense shall be Hell, abiding therein, and God will be angry with him, and curse him, and for him is prepared a great retribution."
Justice would have been to place that person in a similar situation in next life in order to experience the same that he/she did to the other person, i.e. be killed in similar circumstances.
560 "Say 'Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worse place and are more astray from the right path.'"
Did they conduct genetic engineering experiments and convert some humans to apes and pigs that such treatment was justified? Contradicts 4017.
4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.
4728 "That is because they followed that which angered God, and they hated that which pleased Him. Thus, He nullified their works."
How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965
Very human emotions. Good deeds nullified? Doesn't make any sense. Contradicts 440 and 997.
440 Indeed, allah does not wrong the weight of an atom; and if it is good he will DOUBLE it. And he grants from himself a great recompense.
997 So whoever does the weight of an atom of good will see it.
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a BETTER reward than it .........
As God calls Himself the Just, perhaps we can take the concept of God's revenge and simply put another name on it? Karma perhaps? https//www.thetreeofawakening.com/karma/
It is not the infinite Creator's revenge. It is just a karmic repercussion of your action CHOSEN BY YOURSELF!! In reality you and everyone else is a tiny part of the infinite Creator. When you die and your spirit (part of the infinite Creator) reaches the SITTER SPACE (between lives area), you yourself review all your actions in the life just passed (of course with help of spirit guides), and then you yourself acknowledge the mistakes you made, and then you yourself VOLUNTARILY choose to place yourself in a situation in your next life where you will experience the same wrongdoings done to yourself that you did to others, to restore the balance. YOU CHOOSE IT YOURSELF EXERCISING YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Because now in the 6th density spirit existence, free of the restraints of the 3rd density and having veil of forgetfulness lifted, you as part of the infinite Creator realize all your mistakes and ashamed of it and you yourself choose your own recompensation. YOU WILL REALIZE THAT BY HURTING OTHERS YOU ACTUALLY HURT YOURSELF BECAUSE IN REALITY WE ARE ALL ONE, A TINY PART OF THE INFINITE CREATOR.
Doesn't this make more sense than a wrathful, vengeful and objectified god (something like Zeus or Apollo or Enlil of the Annunaki), getting angry with you and cursing you and taking revenge on you?
How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965
EDIT I examined the verses surrounding 3965 and it seems that they are speaking of one (the rejecter) who has turned away in arrogance (3959), has not chosen a righteous path (3957), and has ordered to serve other than God (3964). And I think we all know, specifically, what the definition of righteousness is, as per 2177. Although it seems worth noting that God is only speaking of one aspect of a disbeliever, setting up partners, that equates to nullification of deeds (in 3965). Which then begs the question why did He single out setting up partners?
Exactly, the part of your quote that I emphasized doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is the most powerful evidence of possible tampering with the original positive channeling, and I have dissected this in great detail here. Please read my post carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636
I do read only translations, and I'm aware that it is a problem. One day I hope to reach the understanding that you, and a lot of other people on this forum, have. I've tried looking at or downloading lane lexicons online but I got confused and couldn't understand how to access them once I downloaded them... I would prefer physical books but the ones I've seen on Amazon are so expensive. Excuses, I know.
I agree you have to be careful about translations because the translators DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY MISTRANSLATE to misguide you. Do your own research first and use the quranic methodology. The problem is, no matter how you interpret those verses, the issues you raised cannot be resolved. I have spent years learning and interpreting the verses in question every possible way, and still could not resolve those issues. In my opinion, the only possible hypothesis is that the original positive channeling has been possibly tampered with.
Be intellectually honest with yourself. Many members here are extremely learned and deep down they see the truth but then they become intellectually dishonest with themselves and let their emotions, presuppositions and dogmatic beliefs that they are brainwashed with, overrule the voice of the inner conscience. I know that because few years ago I was the same!
May the love and light of the Infinite Creator be with you and may the INFINITE, MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST CREATOR guide you towards the truth.
Peace
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Peace, i believe you are incorrect.
God Forgives whomever he wills, whatever he wills. << full stop
read 272-4, it gives the example of when some from the children of israel killed someone, followed by an example how how God ressurected them, Followed by an example of how after that they hardened there hearts, but crucialy.. followed by an example of what can become of a hard heart..
That sign increased my faith, i used to be very hard hearted, because before i turned to God i was a huge transgressor, but i believe God has purified me alot since then, though surely i have a huge way to go, may my lord help me.
Moses killed a man, it may not have been murder, i do not know, it may have been manslaughter, but none the less, he did wrong, and his lord forgave him.
is there unforgivable sin?
yes indeed, 448,4116, but it is not murder.
also, in my understanding, God informs us that he will not forgive certain people, and theese people are
mushrikoon,kafiroon,munafiqeen -or-
assosciators with God, rejectors and Hypocrites.Other than that, in my knowledge, of the quran at least, he does not say anyone else is unforgivable..
of course, there is more to it than that.. God also informs us that,
Killing an innocent is like killing all of mankind..
would God forgive someone who killed all of mankind?
That is HIS judgement, not mine, yours or anyone elses. God does what he wills, glorified is He. He forgives whoever he wills, and he punishes whoever he wills.
Am i justifying evil? no way, it is obviously a great transgression to murder, and one of the fundamental and clear laws of God.
There are great examples in the accounts of the gospels, for example
luke 13
Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, do you think that these were sinners beyond all men who lived in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but if you do not repent, you will all perish in the same way.matthew 5
`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.Peace.
EDIT of course this is only my understanding, i may be inccorrect, and probably am in parts, do not believe what i say, rather, what God has revealed.
also, the verses from gospel accounts i quoted are YLT (youngs literal translation)Peace
Hi,
Indeed God does what He wills but Gods Word is true He does not change it. On murder there is punishment, so has He decided it.
That does not mean you will never be forgiven, it means you have to pay for what you have done. After you have payed, then there is hopefully/maybe forgiveness.Of course this is also only my understanding.
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Peace bender,
God turns sin into credits if he wills,
also
'oh ye my servants who have transgressed againt themselves, do not despair of the mercy of god, as god forgives the collected sin'
in reference to my example of moses, i did ponder this, and he did end up spending however many pilgrimages working in midian and 40 years wandering the wilderness, and underwent great tests, so i think this is a good example. he surely attoned for his sin, but he also did say after killing 'my lord because you have shown me mercy i will not help the wrongdoers'. if god wills he can blot out all sins and turn them into credits.
peace
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How did you start learning if I may ask? )
I knew the alphabet since I was young.
There are a lot of courses on youtube where you can learn the alphabet, like this one.Anyways, since I already knew how to read, I just started to examine the words, sentences and the structures of the verses.
I did this with the available translations, every time I saw some weird things in the translations it was for me a hint to take a closer look at the Arabic text.
One of the things I also did and is very helpful, was trying to solve the contradictions presented in those anti quran sites, like this one
If you like solving puzzles then it's for sure not a waste of time.Actually your question in this topic would have been a reason for me to examine the arabic text.
From your intuition God does not seek revenge etc.
Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.
What I do is, I seek for the arabic word that is translated as revenge and look how it is used in other verses, I compare the verses how they are build and then make an assumption and test if my assumption holds in all verses, if not I try to figure out why not, and try to make a better theory etc etc etcOh 1 tip, don't read more then there is, it will make it only harder.
?
Does it make sense to you?
When I read such translations I know for sure something is wrong with the translation. -
Peace Bender,
Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.
bravo bravo bravo
3030, 4153
Peace
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Peace bender,
God turns sin into credits if he wills,
also
'oh ye my servants who have transgressed againt themselves, do not despair of the mercy of god, as god forgives the collected sin'
Peace,
Murder is not transgressing against ourselves, murder is transgressing against others.
in reference to my example of moses, i did ponder this, and he did end up spending however many pilgrimages working in midian and 40 years wandering the wilderness, and underwent great tests, so i think this is a good example. he surely attoned for his sin, but he also did say after killing 'my lord because you have shown me mercy i will not help the wrongdoers'. if god wills he can blot out all sins and turn them into credits.
peace
I have a different view on Moses story in the quran. But even if you take the traditional view then he did not murder but killed someone by accident.
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Peace,
Murder is not transgressing against ourselves, murder is transgressing against others.
I have a different view on Moses story in the quran. But even if you take the traditional view then he did not murder but killed someone by accident.
Peace.
I agree. and i do not follow traditions. The point i emphasized is that God does what he wills, he forgives whoever he wills. I have met many murderers, i still share the message with them, i still hope that they will soften there heart to God. The righteous do not need salvation, the transgressors do.
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Peace all,
Suppose you write a letter to order a blanket, suppose you send it to a shop for books. The order may beompletely correct, with all the specifications and everything. but you sent it to the wrong address. You receive no answer or you receive an answer which tells you that they cannot erve that. YOu have to sed it to correct address and when you do you will get your blanket.
Of course, it is not the same, but it is not the sameon many counts. Le tus change to another supposition you are in lve with a boy who is good, patient, charming, wise, but you do not know him visually nd somehow you get oncufse and look at a young which through confusion you think it is him, you peak with him but sort of you are nnot getting the wisdom, the patient listeing, the kindness and understndig and the enerosity which you were expecting... Till you do not go to the right person it will be like that
Of course God is not a nice boy, nor a shop for books and is above ll that and inn fact controls shops of all kids and all kinds of boys, that the fact is that there is something wrong with you because you do not give enough attention to what you do or you are gullible and si a good lookig face and think that that will go with a good heart. There may be something that makes yous see what you fncy rather tha reality, if it is lack of maturity or concentration, not somethig you do out of contumacy, I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses. It is not that God feel so insulted that he needs to punish you, no it is you who needs to be punished so that you tone down and come back to reality. When you do, you will gt all your points back if you recover from your dellusion.
Let us say that you know your daughter or your son is befriending a person who might be in affairs which are dishonest or dangerous. You may be sure, the inn that case of course you will protect your people to the best of your ability. But still unless it is necessary to protect others yu will not shout it around. If all you have is suspicion, you will state so to your people and ak them to be very carefulnd watch out nd if they see any signs of it being true get out of the way or if they don't but stillthere is suspicion to be very careful and don't tak any steps that could ot be undone.
But of course, less still than in the prvious case, you ar not going to spread it all around.
Salaam
Thanks for providing the analogies.
What you said here "I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses."
A lot of atheists say that in a sense. Even some monotheists here have said that, in a sense, also, when speaking of God and also describing Him to be anthropomorphic.
Also calls into question what is reality, really; how do each of us shape our own realities, how are our perceptions and interpretations measured by the one "reality"; etc. Makes me thing of the Matrix.
I feel like I have to study the concept of shirk more as it relates to people in the Qur'an. That's something I haven't looked into that much. Perhaps understanding more about this idea that seems to do harm will help me further. Although I still don't see what the point is with singling out "setting up partners" specifically, as if there is something inherently and morally wrong with every form of polytheism in the world that I am lacking understanding of.
Peace Comrox,
You hit the mother lode with this one!
I see some more troubling verses in common between our lists! Are you sure you don't have spiritual powers and secretly copying from my list?
Umm... Maybe we're twins who were separated at birth? >D -X
This is exactly the first thing that alerted me to the possibility of tampering with the original positive channeling to the Prophet and had my alarm bells going. The archeological discovery of Sanaa manuscripts dating to the time of the Prophet confirmed my growing suspicions and provided indisputable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering. Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reason (numerous signs), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I am 100% certain that the original positive channeling did not have any negative messages. I am willing to bet my life on it. I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of the original text for confirmation, which I am pretty sure is preserved somewhere on this Earth (unless already discovered and placed under lock and key by the authorities ) Just like what they did to Sanaa manuscripts.
I would love to see an "original text" found as well, and to see the Sanaa manuscripts looked into, if they are indeed under lock and key (not that I don't trust you, just haven't researched the topic myself and have never heard anything about such an event occurring).
You are right. All those qualities indicate a god that is separate from the creation (which contradicts 2115 right away). A jealous, vengeful, wrathful, needy and insecure god. Not the MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST INFINITE CREATOR.
I've read in one of the later chapters of Qur'an that God is also called the Innermost, or something similar to it (Innermost using the translation, not sure what the actual Arabic says for it).
I have spent years reflecting on this, interpreting, re interpreting, discussing, using the quranic methodology, but doesn't make any sense no matter how you interpret the Arabic.
Huh. You've gone through all of these verses, or similar, or just focused on the words in question that suggest such qualities of God?
Please go through my following post in past which dissects this in great detail and focuses on the most powerful evidence based on conscience, mind and reasoning (what the quran itself recommends us to use for verification of its truth)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636
Let me give you an example. If your heart cell or nerve cell malfunctions, will you get angry and cut it off from your body and "burn" it or would you try to repair the damage, if you had unlimited powers of healing and regeneration? Your kidney not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your heart not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your liver not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your eye not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Not just cut them off and burn them but be angry at them and curse them. Nice solutions (sarcastic) especially when you have the power to regenerate and heal them completely.
So your belief is that God and humankind is One?
I read through the post that you kindly linked above. I know I need to study more deeply the concept of Hell as well. I don't think people are going to reside in Hell eternity, no, you are right that this is not justice. I also know some have said here that the time spent in Hell is eternal but Hell itself as a creation is not eternal.
The way you worded your answer, it sounds like you understand the "picture" of Hell as described in Qur'an must be taken quite literally.
Justice would have been to place that person in a similar situation in next life in order to experience the same that he/she did to the other person, i.e. be killed in similar circumstances.
Did they conduct genetic engineering experiments and convert some humans to apes and pigs that such treatment was justified? Contradicts 4017.
4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.
Very human emotions. Good deeds nullified? Doesn't make any sense. Contradicts 440 and 997.
440 Indeed, allah does not wrong the weight of an atom; and if it is good he will DOUBLE it. And he grants from himself a great recompense.
997 So whoever does the weight of an atom of good will see it.
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a BETTER reward than it .........
Beautiful verses, thank you for reminding me of them.
It is not the infinite Creator's revenge. It is just a karmic repercussion of your action CHOSEN BY YOURSELF!! In reality you and everyone else is a tiny part of the infinite Creator. When you die and your spirit (part of the infinite Creator) reaches the SITTER SPACE (between lives area), you yourself review all your actions in the life just passed (of course with help of spirit guides), and then you yourself acknowledge the mistakes you made, and then you yourself VOLUNTARILY choose to place yourself in a situation in your next life where you will experience the same wrongdoings done to yourself that you did to others, to restore the balance. YOU CHOOSE IT YOURSELF EXERCISING YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Because now in the 6th density spirit existence, free of the restraints of the 3rd density and having veil of forgetfulness lifted, you as part of the infinite Creator realize all your mistakes and ashamed of it and you yourself choose your own recompensation. YOU WILL REALIZE THAT BY HURTING OTHERS YOU ACTUALLY HURT YOURSELF BECAUSE IN REALITY WE ARE ALL ONE, A TINY PART OF THE INFINITE CREATOR.
Doesn't this make more sense than a wrathful, vengeful and objectified god (something like Zeus or Apollo or Enlil of the Annunaki), getting angry with you and cursing you and taking revenge on you?
Basically what I meant, but you included much more detail. I was thinking of karma in the very general concept that everyone seems to know, such as when you do something wrong to another person and then something happens to you and someone says it's karma.
Exactly, the part of your quote that I emphasized doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is the most powerful evidence of possible tampering with the original positive channeling, and I have dissected this in great detail here. Please read my post carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636
Couldn't 228 be speaking of the Last Day, where people are brought to life again and returned to "stand" before God for his or her deeds?
4011 sounds more convincing to be speaking of another life, although I suppose the two deaths could be when we were with God before, and then when we died in this life; and the two lives could be when we were born in this world, and when we were brought back to life on the Last Day. Just some speculation.
I agree you have to be careful about translations because the translators DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY MISTRANSLATE to misguide you.
All of them? ??? -\
Do your own research first and use the quranic methodology. The problem is, no matter how you interpret those verses, the issues you raised cannot be resolved. I have spent years learning and interpreting the verses in question every possible way, and still could not resolve those issues. In my opinion, the only possible hypothesis is that the original positive channeling has been possibly tampered with.
Be intellectually honest with yourself. Many members here are extremely learned and deep down they see the truth but then they become intellectually dishonest with themselves and let their emotions, presuppositions and dogmatic beliefs that they are brainwashed with, overrule the voice of the inner conscience. I know that because few years ago I was the same!
May the love and light of the Infinite Creator be with you and may the INFINITE, MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST CREATOR guide you towards the truth.
Peace
Thank you, very good advice that I will try my best to stick to, God willing.
May the love and light be with you as well, and everyone here. group
I knew the alphabet since I was young.
There are a lot of courses on youtube where you can learn the alphabet, like this one.Thanks for the link! I'll look into it.
My partner said he would be willing to pay for some online classes for me to help me learn more, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of classes he would like for me to take. If I can learn some Arabic though, that would be great.
Anyways, since I already knew how to read, I just started to examine the words, sentences and the structures of the verses.
I did this with the available translations, every time I saw some weird things in the translations it was for me a hint to take a closer look at the Arabic text.
One of the things I also did and is very helpful, was trying to solve the contradictions presented in those anti quran sites, like this one
If you like solving puzzles then it's for sure not a waste of time.Funny, I've done the same thing. A while back I bought a book that claimed it had some serious questions and issues concerning Islam. I sectioned off the part that focused on the Qur'an (was only about one third of the book) and read through it. Most of the "problems" addressed I found I was able to resolve on my own through examining the verses and reasoning. Some were historical, others I couldn't think my way out of completely or I got confused so I sticky-noted them and vowed to come back (hint I never did). The book is sitting on my shelf right now, and although I went through the whole section, I'm not sure if I feel compelled enough to pick it up again and go through. Honestly since I already went through it I just think I'm being lazy. Now that I've told you that, I must hide from myself. & nope
Actually your question in this topic would have been a reason for me to examine the arabic text.
From your intuition God does not seek revenge etc.
Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.
What I do is, I seek for the arabic word that is translated as revenge and look how it is used in other verses, I compare the verses how they are build and then make an assumption and test if my assumption holds in all verses, if not I try to figure out why not, and try to make a better theory etc etc etcSounds like a really good idea! Thanks, I'll try to give it a shot when I have time.
Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.
Oh 1 tip, don't read more then there is, it will make it only harder.
Can be hard to do for me, if you haven't already been able to tell. giveup
All these ideas and images pop up in my head...
Does it make sense to you?
When I read such translations I know for sure something is wrong with the translation.Literally, no, it doesn't make sense. Figuratively... possibly? But I never take such verses in a literal light, so maybe that's why I find it "easy" per se to read past theses verses.