Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God

huruf

Peace huruf,comrox,all.

I like your examples huruf.

You mentioned "shirk" comrox, please allow me to give the following example/analogy

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her, but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.
How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!
That is what "shirk" means to me.
Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

That is a very moving, eloquent, example.

Salaam

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox, all,

Umm... Maybe we're twins who were separated at birth? > -X

I knew it. Now I can finally stop calling the adoption agencies looking for my long lost twin

Actually all of us, the entire humanity are "twins". We are all a tiny part of the infinite Creator. Analogy is that of an infinite tree with a strong trunk with branches, sub branches and then finally leaves. The infinite Creator would be analogous to the whole tree. We are the individual leaves. The whole universe is a tiny part of the infinite Creator with the infinite Creator = all that exists + infinitely more. The entire creation is a tiny extension and manifestation of the infinite intelligent energy as sub quantum lower vibrations of strings of energy. Also the grand unification theory and interconvertibility of matter and energy (E=m x c squared). This creates an illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator. Meditate on 2115.

I would love to see an "original text" found as well, and to see the Sanaa manuscripts looked into, if they are indeed under lock and key (not that I don't trust you, just haven't researched the topic myself and have never heard anything about such an event occurring).

https//doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/will-the-ancient-quranic-manuscripts-be-the-downfall-of-islam/

Excerpts

"Yemeni authorities already debarred Puin and Bothmer from further examination of those manuscripts. In fact, now they do not allow anyone to see those manuscripts anymore except some very carefully selected non-Quranic parchments, which are at display at the ground floor of Dar al-Makhtutat Library."

"Ursula Dreibholz, a preservation expert, who worked on the Sana?a project for eight years as the chief conservator, is much frustrated by seeing the lack of concern of Yemeni authorities to protect those manuscripts by using modern technology (1983, p. 30-8 ). Neither the security devices are correct, nor is adequate attention being given to the manuscripts to avoid further deterioration (1996, p. 131?45). In fact, Dreibholz (1999, p. 21?5) said that it was her greatest concern to create a safe and reliable permanent storage system for the restored fragments. Also, the poor storage hardly has any protection from insects and water. Most importantly, there is a lack of fire prevention or detection system, keeping in mind the truly catastrophic fires that have destroyed important libraries and artworks around the world throughout history. The Yemeni authorities said they have neither money nor means to install fire protection systems. She does not understand the genuine reason behind the apathy of Yemeni authorities."

Some more links about Sanaa manuscripts

https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html

http//www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

This also confirms Muslim historical evidence about existence of various codices of al-quran at the time of death of the messenger which reportedly had significant differences.

http//www.inthenameofallah.org/Codices%20of%20the%20Quran.html

Reportedly, caliph Usman arbitrarily chose one of the codices (Zaid's codex) as the standard text of al-quran and burned the remaining! (for example codices of Ibn Masud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b). Question is, what was he trying to hide and who give him the authority to do what he did? Muhammad? Gabriel? The Infinite Creator? The sectarians own traditions say that Muhammad preferred the knowledge of quran of Ibn Masud over all others. Guess whose codex was conveniently destroyed - the codex of Ibn Masud!

Example of tampering with original text that makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in meaning (relevant to your thread). This example is from one of the above referenced links

"A. Several words are missing within a paragraph leading to a different meaning

Sahih International translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)

Sana'a manuscript, ?DAM 0 1-27.1?, translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them in this world. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)

The finishing letter, ?Alif?, in ?yatawallaw?, ?they turn away?, found in today?s standard text of the Quran is missing in the early manuscript under discussion, as indicated by the empty box with a black frame above. Moreover, in the the verb ?yu?addibhum?, ?he (Allah) will punish them?, found on ?Fol. 16r, Z.13?, is not explained with ?adaban aliman?, ?with a painful punishment?, as in the Standard Text (StT). There one finds ?fi?l-dunya wa-?l-ahirati?, ?in this world and in the Hereafter.? The Sana'a manuscript contains only ?in this world? and therefore fits better with the end of the verse in both versions ?And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.?"

There was no "painful punishment" and "hereafter" in the original text of 974. The original text just talked about punishment on Earth which is coherent with karmic repercussion and makes sense. The fabricators added "painful punishment" and "hereafter" in the current text to make it look like the infinite Creator will give severe punishment both in this world and the hereafter.

You can imagine how much more similar tampering could have been done with the original text, which would explain all the contradictions and discrepancies under discussion.

So your belief is that God and humankind is One?

2115 clearly indicates that the Creator is infinite, therefore all creation has to be part of the infinite Creator. If the Creator is not infinite and creation is separate from the creator then the creator must end somewhere and the creation begin somewhere. So there will be an area in space/time occupied only by creation and not creator. If you face that portion of space/time where creator doesn't exist and only creation exists then 2115 will become false.

My question to you if you and the infinite Creator are not one, and you are not a tiny part of the infinite Creator, then where does the infinite Creator end, and you begin? Think/reflect on what I just said.

I read through the post that you kindly linked above. I know I need to study more deeply the concept of Hell as well. I don't think people are going to reside in Hell eternity, no, you are right that this is not justice. I also know some have said here that the time spent in Hell is eternal but Hell itself as a creation is not eternal.

It doesn't matter. The verses clearly say that

A. MAJORITY of people will be mushrikeen (polytheists)

12106 And MOST of them will not believe in allah except while setting up partners.

B. Mushrikeen will be put in fire

572 ........... Whoever sets up partners with allah, then the god will restrict the paradise from him, and his destiny will be the fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

C. Mushrikeen will NEVER be forgiven

448 allah does not forgive that partners be set up with him, and he forgives other than that for whom he pleases. Whoever sets up partners with the god has indeed invented a great sin.

4116 allah does not forgive that partners be set up with him, and he forgives other than that for whom he pleases. Whoever sets up partners with the god has indeed strayed a far straying.

Putting A, B, and C together, MAJORITY of people will be put in fire with NO CHANCE OF FORGIVENESS ------------> FOR ETERNITY

Secondly, the infinite Creator will never forgive MAJORITY of people and make them suffer forever and is also THE MERCIFUL?

This combined with 2115 which proves creation is part of the Infinite Creator indicates that the Infinite Creator will put a part of itself in fire for eternity with no chance of forgiveness.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER.

The "punishment" should be proportional to the harm done by the "crime"

4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.

Eternal punishment with no chance of forgiveness indicates permanent/irreversible harm. How can setting up partners with the infinite Creator cause permanent/irreversible harm to the infinite Creator which deserves an eternal suffering with no chance of forgiveness?

In actual reality, since all creation is a tiny part of the infinite Creator and the Creator is infinite, there is no partner possible of the infinite Creator. So the creation can set up all partners they want, in reality it does not make an iota of difference. Additionally, after death when the veil of forgetfulness is lifted, the creation will automatically realize that they are part of the infinite Creator and there is no partner and no partner is possible. They will realize that the illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator was temporary. Where is the permanent/irreversible harm to the infinite Creator?

The way you worded your answer, it sounds like you understand the "picture" of Hell as described in Qur'an must be taken quite literally.

Looks like you were taking my words "hellfire" literally

Metaphorical meanings are possible also in English language. Feel free to substitute "suffering" wherever you find "hellfire" in my post. Still doesn't make any sense, whether you take it literally or whether you take it metaphorically.

Couldn't 228 be speaking of the Last Day, where people are brought to life again and returned to "stand" before God for his or her deeds?

You missed the first death mentioned in beginning of 228 which automatically indicates a life before that death. That has to be a life previous to this life --------> reincarnation

4011 sounds more convincing to be speaking of another life, although I suppose the two deaths could be when we were with God before, and then when we died in this life; and the two lives could be when we were born in this world, and when we were brought back to life on the Last Day. Just some speculation.

Do you mean to say we are not with the infinite Creator in this life?

4126 And to allah is what is in the heavens and the earth; and allah is encompassing all things.

5016 And we have created the human being and we know what his soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein.

All of them? ??? -\

Yes all of them have serious errors in translation of some verses including the free minds translation.

Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.

The infinite Creator channels us all the time since we are all a tiny part of the infinite Creator. It is we who don't listen to it. Some recommended ways to listen to that channeling and to carry a two way dialogue with the infinite Creator are the following

Salat (close connection, intimate communication with the infinite Creator at certain times of the day)
Transcendental Meditation (which could be part of salat)
Channeling the infinite Creator or positive higher dimensional entities like Gabriel (which could be part of salat)
Astral projection or out of body experience or remote viewing (which could be part of salat)

All of the above can be done while in this 3rd density existence. You just have to learn and keep practicing until you get it. This is the reason why salat is stressed so many times in the quran.

################

The positive channeling of the divine message in the 1980s to a group of people in USA (through a female) does not have any of the discrepancies or contradictions. It confirms the fundamental teachings of the quran, namely

Oneness of the Infinite Creator (the law of one)
The last day (the day of harvest)
Doing good deeds (service to others)

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

There is no mention of any hellfire or hell. All creation is divided only into two groups, the STO group (service to others, good deeds), and the STS group (service to self). It just talks about karmic repercussion of the STO or STS. If you are > 51% STO you will evolve into positive 4th density beings on the day of harvest (the last day) and live on a positive 4th density planet (what you might call heaven). Any negative actions will have equal karmic repercussions in next life.

5660 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop us,
5661 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.

The STS group will either remain on 3rd density planet in next life (Earth or some other similar 3rd density planet) or evolve into negative 4th density beings on a negative 4th density planet. Either way they will have karmic repercussions of their negative actions, whether in 3rd or 4th density. It tells us not to hate the STS since they are also part of the infinite Creator, who have chosen to walk the STS path in accordance with the law of free will, and eventually by early 6th density they will all have faced their karmic repercussions and will freely choose to come back to STO path. All it says is just do not let them use you or exploit you or control and manipulate you for their selfish purposes while at the same time sending love and light their way.

STO path = helping others without expecting anything in return, horizontal society structure in which there is no hierarchy, no human above another human, all live symbiotically.

STS path = selfish actions at the expense of others, or helping others while expecting something in return, hierarchical social structure (example corporations, governments, military etc.) with a pyramidal hierarchy, everyone trying to take advantage and exploit the other for their own selfish agenda, there is control and manipulation using fear based tactics.

If you think about it, every single bad deed is caused by STS mentality and selfishness.

This is just a very small summary. It also mentions Muhammad in a positive manner, as well as Moses and Jesus. It says that all messengers were initially sent this same positive message (that was sent in 1980s) which was corrupted later on by the negative higher dimensional entities to deceive people and entice them to the STS path, but the channeling of the positive message never stops and anyone can access it at any time.

6112 And as such, we have permitted the enemies of every prophet-devils of mankind and jinn-to inspire/channel each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/intuition (3030), mind/reason (numerous verses), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I couldn't find any major contradictions and discrepancies in it and it all makes perfect sense. When I started reading it I was up for 36 straight hours reading it, I was riveted. For the first time in my life I felt total peace and all my unanswered questions were answered.

May the infinite Creator guide us all towards the truth.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her,

The difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.

Why would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!

Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

Firstly, anger, wrath, revenge will NEVER cross the mind of the "mother" because of reasons I just gave above.

Secondly, the feelings of love, care, forgiveness and compassion will ALWAYS be there.

According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Peace

good_logic

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again .

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?
Please ponder the message again.
GOD bless you.
Peace

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

Losing memory is a huge disadvantage despite instinct and messages. This is indisputable and not the child's fault. Does not justify no forgiveness leading to eternal suffering.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

Huh? Are you ok? Strawman fallacy.

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again.

Logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?

Logical fallacy of red herring.

My humble advice, please learn about logical fallacies.

Peace

good_logic

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Timotheus

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace,

Alhamdullilah, well said. The greatest fallacy is following ones own ego instead of the truth revealed to them, the message preserved by God, an instrucion to those who revere there Lord, even when alone on their own. May our lord guide the sincere to his truth, and protect us from the evil of our own desires, and purify us according to his mercy,

Peace

A_Submitter

Salam

Why wouldn't God forgive someone who committed shirk before death?

What about those who were brainwashed as children by sectarians, and followed their parents' views, then received the message and repented?

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death - then what is the point of repenting and submitting to God alone if one is still going to Hell?

You must be wrong Truthseeker11. I'm not promoting shirk of course, but maybe you're confusing with another verse in which God won't accept repentance.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

Good logic, can you provide me with those verses? Thank you.

Salam

truthseeker11

Salam Submitter,

You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death

Where and when did I say the red part?

My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).

Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".

I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.

What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).

Salam

A_Submitter

Salam Submitter,

You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.

Where and when did I say the red part?

My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).

Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".

I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.

This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.

What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).

Salam

Salam,

A mistake on my side. I was basing on this that you wrote;

"According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity."

With returns I thought you meant repent and submit to God alone.

So I was reading it "If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death-"...

Anyway, sorry.

Salam

Timotheus

Salam

Why wouldn't God forgive someone who committed shirk before death?

What about those who were brainwashed as children by sectarians, and followed their parents' views, then received the message and repented?

If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death - then what is the point of repenting and submitting to God alone if one is still going to Hell?

You must be wrong Truthseeker11. I'm not promoting shirk of course, but maybe you're confusing with another verse in which God won't accept repentance.

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

Good logic, can you provide me with those verses? Thank you.

Salam

Peace,

In the context of the quran, God says that he forgives whoever he wills, and punishes whoever he wills, that those who repent after wrongdoing, sincerely and amend there ways will have nothing to fear. In the context of the whole quran, this verse seems to impy (in my understanding) that God will not forgive those who assosciate others with him up untill they die, it seems clear to me, that those who repent and are purified from idol worship, If God has willed, are forgiven. I you would like verses to support this view, just ask, but there are so many, in the context of the whole.

As for those who are 'brainwashed'

3660

'Did i not condition/covenant/enjoin upon you, o children of adam, that you should not serve the satan, indeed he is to you a clear enemy'

7172-173

And your Lord took from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and He testified/witnessed them over their souls 'alastu birabbikum'?**. They said yes we have witnessed/testified'. that/so that you say on the day of standing 'Indeed we aere about this unaware', or that you say 'Only our forefathers before us associated partners, and we are descendants after them, so then will you destroy us for what the vain/worthless/nullified ones did?

**note i cannot say for certain the interpretation of this word/phrase, in the context, it would be taken multiple ways, most translators choose;
God talking 'am i not your lord'
It also, in my understanding, could be interpreted as
Children of adam, talking to their souls 'am i not with your Lord'

due to the context, it is unclear, BUT what is clear is that

We witnessed ourselves, to our Lord

(my faliable and limited understanding/interpretation, dont follow me follow God alone, and seek understanding from him)

we are all children of adam, God had us bear witness to Him as our lord, and conditioned it upon us that we are not to serve satan. Thus there are no acceptible excuses.

I know from my own childhood, lets say 'brainwashing' (i was brought up in a christian bretheren family, and they are very much almost exclusive bretheren/closed doors/cult kind of mentality, but still 'open', seemingly) That while for much of it i went along with it.. (this is the point..) I KNEW, 100%, with certainty, somewhere inside myself, that it was false. But i was 'kafar' or conceling the truth from myself.

why? because we all bore witness, we all KNOW that God is one, that he is our Lord, because we were there, with him, but in this life we can, and often do Cover over the truth, or hide it from ourselves (i.e reject)

Peace be with you, and may our Lord guide us and forgive us our errors.

Comrox

Peace all,

I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

This discussion is interesting for sure...

Timotheus

Peace all,

I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

This discussion is interesting for sure...

Peace,

people who think they are always right or in whatever matter, are possibly commiting shirk of themselves with God.

God is Al-Haqq, the right, the truth, while we inevitably are faliable, and quite often wrong, unless of course in whatever matter we strive for Al-Haqq, and even then;

2252

I think we all need to accept we are not always right, and in any matter we could be wrong, lest we become arrogant, and start trusting in ourselves rather than God. Of course God proves some things, with clear signs, and we cannot argue against them, for instance

la ilaha illa allah

I trust absolutely in this, and anyone who tells me otherwise, well i think that they are wrong. because 'inna ilaahakum lawaheed', which i interpret as 'indeed your god is certainly one'

It is something we should all do our best to be aware of, and if we contradict the 'evident/clear/manifest signs' in the quran, we are clearly wrong.

There are some things we know, or should do, with certainty, if we are believers, there are some other things, we know somewhat, and there are some things that we know nothing, or very little but assumption or conjecture. I am not saying I am not one of them, while i do try

1253

And I do not absolve my self, indeed the self is a certain advocate with evil, except what my Lord has had mercy. Indeed my Lord is forgiving, merciful

We are all Gods servants, whether willingly or unwillingly, we are all faliable human beings, and we should strive for, and ask our Lord An-Naseer, to help us to purify ourselves from falsehood. As God reminds us in 16106 if we are believers, or claim to be, we must do our utmost to purify ourselves from any disease we have in our hearts, and if we slip or fall, to turn to our Lord, At-Tawab and never become content, with concealing the truth from ourselves.

Peace

Bender

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it. )

My partner said he would be willing to pay for some online classes for me to help me learn more, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of classes he would like for me to take. If I can learn some Arabic though, that would be great.

The link I gave was for free, but if you or your partner have to much money and don't know what to do with it then I am a good charity to spend your money on, I'll send you via pm my bank account.
You do not need more then learning the alphabet, this means being able to distinguish the characters from each other, I am sure if you really want it then you can do this in 1 weekend.

Funny, I've done the same thing. A while back I bought a book that claimed it had some serious questions and issues concerning Islam. I sectioned off the part that focused on the Qur'an (was only about one third of the book) and read through it. Most of the "problems" addressed I found I was able to resolve on my own through examining the verses and reasoning. Some were historical, others I couldn't think my way out of completely or I got confused so I sticky-noted them and vowed to come back (hint I never did). The book is sitting on my shelf right now, and although I went through the whole section, I'm not sure if I feel compelled enough to pick it up again and go through. Honestly since I already went through it I just think I'm being lazy. Now that I've told you that, I must hide from myself. & nope

Yes shame on you, it's a bad attitude and leans towards kufr >(
kufr is from the same root as kafir, in case you didn't know.

Sounds like a really good idea! Thanks, I'll try to give it a shot when I have time. )

Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.

Nice vid, yes I agree we are all messengers, the difference is the message we transmit.

Can be hard to do for me, if you haven't already been able to tell. giveup

It's hard for everyone, that's imo why we find some verses very hard to comprehend and why we see contradictions.

Literally, no, it doesn't make sense. Figuratively... possibly? But I never take such verses in a literal light, so maybe that's why I find it "easy" per se to read past theses verses.

red There are no figurative verses in the quran. If the quran wants to give an example or a metaphor then it says so, if not then it's literal.
To understand the literal meaning of the so called "figurative" verses is quite some challenge

good_logic

Peace A Submitter.

When God says He forgives whomever He wills, he explains that His will is to forgive those who repent, reform, lead a righteous life and die as righteous believers, with no exceptions,yes even shirk.

Here are some verses
Only those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life will enter Paradise, without the least injustice.

Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Those who repent and lead a righteous life, God redeems them; a complete redemption.

O you who believe, you shall repent to God a firm repentance. Your Lord will then remit your sins and admit you into gardens with flowing streams.....

..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This is open to all humans,any race,any creed/religion,anyone
Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."

God's will is explicit in Quran, it is not kept as a secret from us. It is consistent with His set laws and systems in Quran and with His attributes, specially His mercy and justice.
God shares His decreed will with us in Quran. He explains in depth who deserves His guidance, who earns His forgiveness and who is promised full redemption and admittance into His mercy.
Basically anyone who repents and corrects( sincere intention) will be redeemed.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Man_of_Faith

What is disbelief anyway? Ambiguous term.

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox,

It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.

It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.

It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!

One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

It is interesting what the verse just before this one says

389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.

There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)

3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.

750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."

968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.

3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.

764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.

What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted, justifying eternal suffering?
How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?

It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.

Peace

A_Submitter

Peace Comrox,

It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!

One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me

390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

It is interesting what the verse just before this one says

389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.

There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)

3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.

750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."

968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.

3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.

764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.

What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted and consequently justifying eternal suffering?
How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?

It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.

Peace

Salam,

If we look closer into the verses we understand what kind of repentance He won't accept.

386 How can God guide a people who had rejected after believing, and had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clear evidences had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.
387 To these the punishment will be that the curse of God will be upon them and that of the angels and the people all together!
388 Abiding therein, the retribution will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.

The differences in 386-389 and 390 is that the bold has been added "then increased in rejection".
So it says God will not accept your repentance if you increase your rejection after rejecting. Hard to explain, but I think you get it.

I was wondering though, how can one increase in rejection after rejecting?

Salam

A_Submitter