Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God
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Salam Submitter,
You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.
If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death
Where and when did I say the red part?
My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).
Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".
I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.
This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.
What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).
Salam
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Salam Submitter,
You are committing the logical fallacy of Strawman.
Where and when did I say the red part?
My whole point was based on mushrikeen never being forgiven if they did not repent before death, in case it was not clear to you, or in case my statements were not clear. By "child's return" I meant the spirit's return to the Source (after death).
Please show me where I said "God won't forgive shirk if you repent before death".
I would advise you to be careful next time and avoid Strawman fallacy.
This verse seems even more troubling. Read 389 -----> FORGIVER, MERCIFUL ALLAH, then read 390. The FORGIVER MERCIFUL ALLAH one verse prior turns into a non accepter of repentance.
What irreparable/irreversible harm have they done to the MERCIFUL, FORGIVER Infinite Creator that even their repentance will not be accepted? (indicating they will face eternal suffering).
Salam
Salam,
A mistake on my side. I was basing on this that you wrote;
"According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity."
With returns I thought you meant repent and submit to God alone.
So I was reading it "If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death-"...
Anyway, sorry.
Salam
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Salam
Why wouldn't God forgive someone who committed shirk before death?
What about those who were brainwashed as children by sectarians, and followed their parents' views, then received the message and repented?
If what you say - that God won't forgive a sin as grave as shirk if you repent before death - then what is the point of repenting and submitting to God alone if one is still going to Hell?
You must be wrong Truthseeker11. I'm not promoting shirk of course, but maybe you're confusing with another verse in which God won't accept repentance.
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.
Good logic, can you provide me with those verses? Thank you.
Salam
Peace,
In the context of the quran, God says that he forgives whoever he wills, and punishes whoever he wills, that those who repent after wrongdoing, sincerely and amend there ways will have nothing to fear. In the context of the whole quran, this verse seems to impy (in my understanding) that God will not forgive those who assosciate others with him up untill they die, it seems clear to me, that those who repent and are purified from idol worship, If God has willed, are forgiven. I you would like verses to support this view, just ask, but there are so many, in the context of the whole.
As for those who are 'brainwashed'
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'Did i not condition/covenant/enjoin upon you, o children of adam, that you should not serve the satan, indeed he is to you a clear enemy'
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And your Lord took from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and He testified/witnessed them over their souls 'alastu birabbikum'?**. They said yes we have witnessed/testified'. that/so that you say on the day of standing 'Indeed we aere about this unaware', or that you say 'Only our forefathers before us associated partners, and we are descendants after them, so then will you destroy us for what the vain/worthless/nullified ones did?
**note i cannot say for certain the interpretation of this word/phrase, in the context, it would be taken multiple ways, most translators choose;
God talking 'am i not your lord'
It also, in my understanding, could be interpreted as
Children of adam, talking to their souls 'am i not with your Lord'due to the context, it is unclear, BUT what is clear is that
We witnessed ourselves, to our Lord
(my faliable and limited understanding/interpretation, dont follow me follow God alone, and seek understanding from him)
we are all children of adam, God had us bear witness to Him as our lord, and conditioned it upon us that we are not to serve satan. Thus there are no acceptible excuses.
I know from my own childhood, lets say 'brainwashing' (i was brought up in a christian bretheren family, and they are very much almost exclusive bretheren/closed doors/cult kind of mentality, but still 'open', seemingly) That while for much of it i went along with it.. (this is the point..) I KNEW, 100%, with certainty, somewhere inside myself, that it was false. But i was 'kafar' or conceling the truth from myself.
why? because we all bore witness, we all KNOW that God is one, that he is our Lord, because we were there, with him, but in this life we can, and often do Cover over the truth, or hide it from ourselves (i.e reject)
Peace be with you, and may our Lord guide us and forgive us our errors.
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Peace all,
I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.
It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.
It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.
This discussion is interesting for sure...
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Peace all,
I was replying earlier but I stopped it; I had to do some things first.
It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.
It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.
This discussion is interesting for sure...
Peace,
people who think they are always right or in whatever matter, are possibly commiting shirk of themselves with God.
God is Al-Haqq, the right, the truth, while we inevitably are faliable, and quite often wrong, unless of course in whatever matter we strive for Al-Haqq, and even then;
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I think we all need to accept we are not always right, and in any matter we could be wrong, lest we become arrogant, and start trusting in ourselves rather than God. Of course God proves some things, with clear signs, and we cannot argue against them, for instance
la ilaha illa allah
I trust absolutely in this, and anyone who tells me otherwise, well i think that they are wrong. because 'inna ilaahakum lawaheed', which i interpret as 'indeed your god is certainly one'
It is something we should all do our best to be aware of, and if we contradict the 'evident/clear/manifest signs' in the quran, we are clearly wrong.
There are some things we know, or should do, with certainty, if we are believers, there are some other things, we know somewhat, and there are some things that we know nothing, or very little but assumption or conjecture. I am not saying I am not one of them, while i do try
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And I do not absolve my self, indeed the self is a certain advocate with evil, except what my Lord has had mercy. Indeed my Lord is forgiving, merciful
We are all Gods servants, whether willingly or unwillingly, we are all faliable human beings, and we should strive for, and ask our Lord An-Naseer, to help us to purify ourselves from falsehood. As God reminds us in 16106 if we are believers, or claim to be, we must do our utmost to purify ourselves from any disease we have in our hearts, and if we slip or fall, to turn to our Lord, At-Tawab and never become content, with concealing the truth from ourselves.
Peace
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Thanks for the link! I'll look into it. )
My partner said he would be willing to pay for some online classes for me to help me learn more, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of classes he would like for me to take. If I can learn some Arabic though, that would be great.
The link I gave was for free, but if you or your partner have to much money and don't know what to do with it then I am a good charity to spend your money on, I'll send you via pm my bank account.
You do not need more then learning the alphabet, this means being able to distinguish the characters from each other, I am sure if you really want it then you can do this in 1 weekend.Funny, I've done the same thing. A while back I bought a book that claimed it had some serious questions and issues concerning Islam. I sectioned off the part that focused on the Qur'an (was only about one third of the book) and read through it. Most of the "problems" addressed I found I was able to resolve on my own through examining the verses and reasoning. Some were historical, others I couldn't think my way out of completely or I got confused so I sticky-noted them and vowed to come back (hint I never did). The book is sitting on my shelf right now, and although I went through the whole section, I'm not sure if I feel compelled enough to pick it up again and go through. Honestly since I already went through it I just think I'm being lazy. Now that I've told you that, I must hide from myself. & nope
Yes shame on you, it's a bad attitude and leans towards kufr >(
kufr is from the same root as kafir, in case you didn't know.Sounds like a really good idea! Thanks, I'll try to give it a shot when I have time. )
Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.
Nice vid, yes I agree we are all messengers, the difference is the message we transmit.
Can be hard to do for me, if you haven't already been able to tell. giveup
It's hard for everyone, that's imo why we find some verses very hard to comprehend and why we see contradictions.
Literally, no, it doesn't make sense. Figuratively... possibly? But I never take such verses in a literal light, so maybe that's why I find it "easy" per se to read past theses verses.
red There are no figurative verses in the quran. If the quran wants to give an example or a metaphor then it says so, if not then it's literal.
To understand the literal meaning of the so called "figurative" verses is quite some challenge -
Peace A Submitter.
When God says He forgives whomever He wills, he explains that His will is to forgive those who repent, reform, lead a righteous life and die as righteous believers, with no exceptions,yes even shirk.
Here are some verses
Only those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life will enter Paradise, without the least injustice.Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Those who repent and lead a righteous life, God redeems them; a complete redemption.O you who believe, you shall repent to God a firm repentance. Your Lord will then remit your sins and admit you into gardens with flowing streams.....
..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."
This is open to all humans,any race,any creed/religion,anyone
Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."God's will is explicit in Quran, it is not kept as a secret from us. It is consistent with His set laws and systems in Quran and with His attributes, specially His mercy and justice.
God shares His decreed will with us in Quran. He explains in depth who deserves His guidance, who earns His forgiveness and who is promised full redemption and admittance into His mercy.
Basically anyone who repents and corrects( sincere intention) will be redeemed.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
What is disbelief anyway? Ambiguous term.
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Peace Comrox,
It seems this thread conversation has evolved into a shirk discussion, and how God's mercy fits into it.
It's made me more interested to look at them (polytheists) and their beliefs more. Of course, they, like us, think they're right.
It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!
One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.
It is interesting what the verse just before this one says
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.
There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)
3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.
750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."
968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.
3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.
764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.
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What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted, justifying eternal suffering?
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How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?
It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.
Peace
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Peace Comrox,
It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!
One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.
It is interesting what the verse just before this one says
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.
There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)
3131 And be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the rejecters.
750 And the dwellers of the fire called on the dwellers of paradise "Give us some water, or what allah has provided for you?" They said "allah has made it forbidden for the rejecters."
968 Allah has promised the hypocrite males and the hypocrite females and the rejecters a fire in hell, in it they will abide; it will be enough for them. And allah has cursed them and they will have a lasting retribution.
3536 As for those who have rejected, for them is the fire of hell, where they do not terminate and die, nor is its retribution ever reduced for them. It is such that we requite every rejecter.
764 We have prepared for the rejecters chains and shackles and a blazing fire.
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What irreversible/irreparable harm will be caused to the infinite Creator by rejection of the rejecters, that even their repentance will not be accepted and consequently justifying eternal suffering?
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How can the Infinite Creator then call itself THE MERCIFUL, THE FORGIVER?
It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.
Peace
Salam,
If we look closer into the verses we understand what kind of repentance He won't accept.
386 How can God guide a people who had rejected after believing, and had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clear evidences had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.
387 To these the punishment will be that the curse of God will be upon them and that of the angels and the people all together!
388 Abiding therein, the retribution will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.The differences in 386-389 and 390 is that the bold has been added "then increased in rejection".
So it says God will not accept your repentance if you increase your rejection after rejecting. Hard to explain, but I think you get it.I was wondering though, how can one increase in rejection after rejecting?
Salam
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Peace A Submitter.
When God says He forgives whomever He wills, he explains that His will is to forgive those who repent, reform, lead a righteous life and die as righteous believers, with no exceptions,yes even shirk.
Here are some verses
Only those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life will enter Paradise, without the least injustice.Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Those who repent and lead a righteous life, God redeems them; a complete redemption.O you who believe, you shall repent to God a firm repentance. Your Lord will then remit your sins and admit you into gardens with flowing streams.....
..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."
This is open to all humans,any race,any creed/religion,anyone
Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."God's will is explicit in Quran, it is not kept as a secret from us. It is consistent with His set laws and systems in Quran and with His attributes, specially His mercy and justice.
God shares His decreed will with us in Quran. He explains in depth who deserves His guidance, who earns His forgiveness and who is promised full redemption and admittance into His mercy.
Basically anyone who repents and corrects( sincere intention) will be redeemed.
GOD bless you.
PeaceSalam,
Thank you!
God bless you too.
Salam
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Salam Submitter,
The differences in 386-389 and 390 is that the bold has been added "then increased in rejection".
So it says God will not accept your repentance if you increase your rejection after rejecting. Hard to explain, but I think you get it.Yes, I was being lazy and didn't explain this in my post. Thanks for the explanation. This is why I said
it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters
and
that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)
I was wondering though, how can one increase in rejection after rejecting?
Perhaps by being violent towards the muslimeen/mumineen?
Salam
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Salam Submitter,
Yes, I was being lazy and didn't explain this in my post. Thanks for the explanation. This is why I said
and
Perhaps by being violent towards the muslimeen/mumineen?
Salam
Peace,
rejection is not in the quran
disbelive or believe is not in the qurannone of theese words are in the quran, do people not understand that?
k - f -r from which people mistakenly get words like disbelievers, infidels, rejectors, clearly means, to me at least, along the lines of someone who covers over the truth, they tell themselves lies, it is not disbelief it is convincing oneself of falsehood, and burying the truth. covering over. I can clearly see this is my own life, from my experiences, that when i did wrong, when i followed falsehood I KNEW IT, i was just convincing myself i was right, i was concealing/covering over the truth. hence why people get the word rejection, but it is still not what is in the quran..
of course this is my understanding.. one which is by nature faliable, but i get it from the quran, not from peoples distorted translations, or from a language which you cannot properly translate into an entirely different one.
If the whole world of jinns and humans gathered together to produce the quran, we could not. yet so many people are relying on a small group of individuals to interpret the quran for them (i.e translators).. we can NOT translate the quran. it is impossible, however we can gain alot more understanding by understanding the context of it, things which include
the arabic language at the time of the quran
how the arabic language became what it was at the time of the quran
the context of the culture and understanding etc of the people it was revealed to, in their language, of the time
the context of the previous books of God, which were revealed to different people, with all of the above points also applicable to them.Peace
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Salam Submitter,
Yes, I was being lazy and didn't explain this in my post. Thanks for the explanation. This is why I said
and
Perhaps by being violent towards the muslimeen/mumineen?
Salam
Salam,
Thanks for input. My English isn't that good so I miss many things
Salam
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The link I gave was for free, but if you or your partner have to much money and don't know what to do with it then I am a good charity to spend your money on, I'll send you via pm my bank account.
;D
You do not need more then learning the alphabet, this means being able to distinguish the characters from each other, I am sure if you really want it then you can do this in 1 weekend.
I have the video bookmarked; Going to start watching it tomorrow and learning, God willing.
kufr is from the same root as kafir, in case you didn't know.
I knew that.
red There are no figurative verses in the quran. If the quran wants to give an example or a metaphor then it says so, if not then it's literal.
To understand the literal meaning of the so called "figurative" verses is quite some challengeI suppose this is the time to head back over to the verse 37 discussion thread...
Peace Comrox,
It appears that mushrikeen are not singled out, it's a subgroup of the kuffar/rejecters as well!
One of the forum members just drew my attention to a sign which had somehow slipped through the cracks for me
390 Those who have rejected after their belief, then increased in rejection, their repentance will not be accepted, they are the strayers.
It is interesting what the verse just before this one says
389 Except those who repent after this and make amends, then allah is forgiver, merciful.
There will be ETERNAL punishment of that subgroup of rejecters (since their repentance will not be accepted)
A few verses further back, there's also this verse
386 "How can God guide a people who had rejected after believing, and had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clear evidences had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people."
So in this group of rejecters, they knew the message fully, they knew that it was true, they believed for a time, and then they rejected it.
This rejection... is it all about belief, or does it also concern itself with what we choose to do in this life?
391 "Those who have rejected and died while they were rejecters, if the earth full of gold were to be ransomed with it would not be accepted from any of them. For these there will be a painful retribution and they will have no supporters."
392 "You will not reach piety until you spend from what you love; and whatever you spend, God is aware of it."
Are we supposed to believe that rejecters are also incredibly stingy with their money, and only pursue that which is worldly?
It appears that god is wrathful, vengeful and insecure because if someone sets up partners with it, the other god will become more powerful and have greater control, and if someone rejects it, it will lose power and have lesser control, and in both situations will be irreversibly/irreparably harmed justifying eternal suffering, cursing, shackling, roasting with no chance of forgiveness. These actions don't appear to be the actions of a JUST, MERCIFUL, LOVING AND FORGIVING INFINITE CREATOR. They appear more like actions of Enlil of Annunaki, Zeus, Apollo etc.
Peace
It seems what you proposed about is what some polytheists may find is wrong with monotheism. Some of them spoke on Reddit about why they prefer their chosen faith, thought it was interesting, especially the ones who said they believed there may be still "One Source" https//www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/4mqjai/polytheism/
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Peace Comrox,
A few verses further back, there's also this verse
386 "How can God guide a people who had rejected after believing, and had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clear evidences had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people."
So in this group of rejecters, they knew the message fully, they knew that it was true, they believed for a time, and then they rejected it.
This rejection... is it all about belief, or does it also concern itself with what we choose to do in this life?
The quranic message is that if you believe in the Infinite Creator, and the last day, and do good works, you have nothing to fear, and you will not grieve, no matter what your label is.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
All 3 have to be there for success. From this it follows that those who either reject (cover the truth) the infinite Creator, or reject the last day or not do good works will have something to fear and will grieve. It could be any one of those, any two of those or all 3 of those.
- You reject allah but believe in last day, and do good works -----------> fear and grief
- You reject allah, and reject the last day, but do good works ----------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, but reject the last day, but do good works ------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, believe in the last day, but do bad works --------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, but reject the last day and do bad works --------> fear and grief
- You reject allah, but believe in the last day, but do bad works --------> fear and grief
#1, #2, and #3 I find troubling, because they are not harming anyone at all and will still have to go through suffering.
In the other recent message of divine origin that I came across, channeled by positive 6th density entitities (Gabriel is also positive 6th density entity) #1, #2, and #3 (STO group) will have nothing to fear, but #4, #5, and #6 (STS group) will have equal and just suffering (karmic repercussion), which makes sense to me.
391 "Those who have rejected and died while they were rejecters, if the earth full of gold were to be ransomed with it would not be accepted from any of them. For these there will be a painful retribution and they will have no supporters."
392 "You will not reach piety until you spend from what you love; and whatever you spend, God is aware of it."
Are we supposed to believe that rejecters are also incredibly stingy with their money, and only pursue that which is worldly?
If they belong to #4, #5, or #6 then it is likely that they are also stingy with their money (service to self or STS).
It seems what you proposed about is what some polytheists may find is wrong with monotheism. Some of them spoke on Reddit about why they prefer their chosen faith, thought it was interesting, especially the ones who said they believed there may be still "One Source" https//www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/4mqjai/polytheism/
Interesting. I sort of had an idea since I am very familiar with the existence of negative higher density entities in higher dimensions that like to be considered gods and to be worshipped and keep channeling negative STS messages to anyone who is receptive, while fully knowing that they are a tiny part of the infinite Creator. Some of these negatively oriented STS entities have come to be known as various mythological gods such as Zeus, Apollo, Enlil of Annunaki etc. and they have their pagan groups who worship them. Such entities can be very wrathful, jealous, vengeful, angry etc. with their followers.
Peace
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Going back to the original discussion on anger and God
Looking into the philosophy of emotions, I have learned that there is such a thing as righteous or moral anger. I read a philosophy paper called "Courage and Moral Anger" by Paul M. Hughes, a professor of philosophy.
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Some highlights from his paper below; first, about understanding what moral anger is
The two main ways in which angry emotions connect with moral concerns are that, on the one hand, some angry emotions are moral by their very nature, insofar as they are partially constituted by moral beliefs. On the other hand, episodic and dispositional anger may motivate action, in some cases morally laudable action.
Since resentment is a paradigmatic instance of moral anger, we may conjecture that the belief that ones self or some other moral subject has been wronged will be characteristic of all forms of moral anger, and so moral anger of any sort is a reactive attitude felt toward another you believe has wronged a moral subject. To refer to anger as moral in this sense is merely to describe the moral content of such feelings, not to judge them as praiseworthy or blameworthy, virtuous or vicious.
Since moral anger can be aroused only on behalf of a moral subject and a moral subject is anything that has moral standing (i.e., anything that is vested with moral rights, interests, or claims to respect), then persons, individually or collectively, animals, and perhaps other parts of the natural environment, are appropriate subjects of moral anger. We might then say that when moral anger is generated primarily on behalf of oneself, it is personal moral anger; when it is aroused primarily for the sake of other moral subjects, it is vicarious moral anger. The distinction between personal and vicarious moral anger further allows us to classify the various forms of moral anger such as resentment, indignation, scorn, and contempt based on the beliefs typical of those emotions. For instance, if I react angrily over an injustice done to a stranger, then since the constitutive belief of my anger is that another moral subject has been wronged, then my anger is more plausibly regarded as indignation or another form of moral anger other than resentment, which is personal moral anger.
This latter observation highlights the second way in which angry emotions connect to morality, namely, by motivating actions, some of which may be morally worthy. This includes individual and group actions. It is important to acknowledge the reality of collective anger, for anger may reside within and across persons simultaneously, often motivating group action such as riots, political boycotts, and even revolution.
source https//www.viterbo.edu/sites/default/files/centers/d.b._reinhart_institute/courageandmoralanger.pdf - pages 4 and 5
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On how courage relates to moral anger
Courageous actions are actions undertaken to accomplish an important objective in the face of danger to the person performing the action. The danger may to ones physical or psychological well-being, or to ones professional standing or reputation, or to ones personal relationships. Such actions are, on Aristotles view, distinguished from rash, foolish, or reckless actions, with which they are sometimes confused. For Aristotle, courage is the virtue that involves the feelings of fear and confidence. The paradigmatic situation in which courage or cowardice arise concerns the fear of death in battle, for as Aristotle notes death is the most fearful of all things. Courage, on this view, is a mean between the extremes of rashness and cowardice. The courageous man does not fear a noble death, but fears an ignoble one. Put differently and more generally, the courageous man chooses what is noble, or endures things like poverty or other painful things because it is ignoble not to endure them.
Quoting Homer, Aristotle lists examples of people rushing into dangerous circumstances because their blood boiled or because they were motivated by spirit and passion. And he allows that these may be genuinely brave or courageous actions if choice and motive be added to them. The key to whether they are not bona fide instances of courage seems to be whether or not the motive behind the action is the correct one. For Aristotle, the motive of courage is honor, not in the sense of being honored by other people or winning honors from them, but instead in the sense of living nobly.
Aristotle makes clear that rationality enables the good tempered man to understand when, and with regard to what, anger is an appropriate response. Indeed, the very idea that it is possible to be angry at the right things and with the right people, and, further, as he ought, when he ought and as long as he ought presupposes that the correct sorts of moral judgments are being made about the circumstances within which one finds oneself.
Consider the case of a parent enraged over an injustice visited upon his child. Such a parent may well face danger in confronting the agent of injustice, and it is easy enough to imagine that parent over or under reacting to the situation by being blinded by anger to the realities of the danger, or by failing to appreciate their true nature and not being angry enough. Yet just as surely people sometimes, with the help of practical reason, meet danger in a measured and righteously angry way.
source https//www.viterbo.edu/sites/default/files/centers/d.b._reinhart_institute/courageandmoralanger.pdf - pages 7, 8, and 9
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On anger and the view that we should be looking to get rid of our anger because it is entirely bad
Another objection may be culled from the thinking of the Stoic Seneca. According to him, all forms of anger are inconsistent with the good life because they dispose us to cruelty and vengeance, which emotions encourage us to view other people as less than fully human. On this view, the person of virtue is one who strives to extirpate, not merely control, anger.
However, Senecas worry that anger incites people to the excesses of cruelty and vengeance is a consequentialist one, and, thus, must be balanced against the positive behavioral effects of anger in general. Whether or not anger is typically productive of vicious excess or whether, instead, it is equally or even more likely to produce morally productive behavior is an empirical question. Certainly, anger at least sometimes motivates action in defense of ones bodily integrity or self-respect, and in such cases is a good thing, as even Aristotle acknowledges when he notes that those deficient in anger may fail to defend themselves or slavishly tolerate insults to ones friends.
source https//www.viterbo.edu/sites/default/files/centers/d.b._reinhart_institute/courageandmoralanger.pdf - page 11
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Another portion of the paper about revenge and honor (which made me think about how we're told the believers fought in God's sake against those who were oppressors)
Consider first that the phrase those who fight for these reasons refers to seeking revenge, which is hardly the only, even if it is a common, case of facing danger from anger. Moreover, the assertion that they do not act for honors sake can only mean, given the context, that it is not honorable to seek revenge, not that acting from anger for some other purpose is never honorable, or that acting from anger is always incompatible with the motive of honor. Finally, acting from strength of feeling need not be the whole story about why someone faces danger when they are angry. Of course, if they face danger merely because they are very angry then that cannot be the virtue of courage, but Aristotles concession that even in such a case they have something akin to courage begs the question whether acting from anger could ever be truly courageous.
source https//www.viterbo.edu/sites/default/files/centers/d.b._reinhart_institute/courageandmoralanger.pdf - page 8
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A few last sentences from the paper's conclusion
Moral anger is anger that involves as an essential element the agents belief that someone has been the victim of a wrong, and this may motivate as well as constitute courageous acts, which are virtuous. When a person, angered by his own mistreatment or that of others, faces danger in an effort to defend himself or other people, or to protest that mistreatment, she exhibits courage. The form of anger that is central to this form of courage is morally good, and so courage that involves moral anger is virtuous.
source https//www.viterbo.edu/sites/default/files/centers/d.b._reinhart_institute/courageandmoralanger.pdf - page 12
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Curious what peoples' thoughts are on this, if any. I definitely feel like I gained a new insight into anger.
peace
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Peace truthseeker11,
Peace Comrox,
The quranic message is that if you believe in the Infinite Creator, and the last day, and do good works, you have nothing to fear, and you will not grieve, no matter what your label is.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
All 3 have to be there for success. From this it follows that those who either reject (cover the truth) the infinite Creator, or reject the last day or not do good works will have something to fear and will grieve. It could be any one of those, any two of those or all 3 of those.
- You reject allah but believe in last day, and do good works -----------> fear and grief
- You reject allah, and reject the last day, but do good works ----------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, but reject the last day, but do good works ------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, believe in the last day, but do bad works --------> fear and grief
- You believe in allah, but reject the last day and do bad works --------> fear and grief
- You reject allah, but believe in the last day, but do bad works --------> fear and grief
#1, #2, and #3 I find troubling, because they are not harming anyone at all and will still have to go through suffering.
I agree that the above is troubling. Have you ever watched this video? (I'm aware that the disbelievers in question in the video are only one category of disbelievers.)
In the other recent message of divine origin that I came across, channeled by positive 6th density entitities (Gabriel is also positive 6th density entity) #1, #2, and #3 (STO group) will have nothing to fear, but #4, #5, and #6 (STS group) will have equal and just suffering (karmic repercussion), which makes sense to me.
One question... What is STO and STS? I have no idea what those abbreviations mean.
Interesting. I sort of had an idea since I am very familiar with the existence of negative higher density entities in higher dimensions that like to be considered gods and to be worshipped and keep channeling negative STS messages to anyone who is receptive, while fully knowing that they are a tiny part of the infinite Creator. Some of these negatively oriented STS entities have come to be known as various mythological gods such as Zeus, Apollo, Enlil of Annunaki etc. and they have their pagan groups who worship them. Such entities can be very wrathful, jealous, vengeful, angry etc. with their followers.
Peace
Someone in the link I posted brought forth the argument that the "gods" they worship are all just many faces of a single whole, but they considered God to be too deceitful in that option.
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Salam All
The Lord gave humans His attributes. The attributes that we carry are just a sample of the real attribute own by the Lord. For example we 'exist' but our existence is based on the Lord's existence whilst the Lord's existence is absolute encompassing all things.
Thus when we refer to the Lord's anger, wrath, revenge, or any other acts, we are making reference and understanding of our own actions and emotions not the Lord's. Our understanding is limited to what is given to us of His attributes - just a sample, thus we make the mistake and think that the Lord is like us - but the Lord is nothing like us, He is Absolute. And being the Knower of all things, His Quran mentions similar emotions or acts for us to make a reference point for understanding. But being human we are bound to err and in our haste and some with mischievous intention makes the wrong conclusion/understanding.