WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace be upon you Dhul/PB,
It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says
(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace."
Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".
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PEACE IDOL
It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says
(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace." Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".
Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?
Some findings from this debate
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Iblis, was not of the malaika, for had he been, ayat 2177 would be a huge contradiction.
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The Quranic logic regarding this question
A) the malaika were told to bow down and did, Iblis did not.
B) the malaika do not disobey/rebel against Allah, but carry out His commands.
C) Iblis, cannot be one of the malaika, because he disobeyed/rebelled, he was of the JINN.
- A, B, and C are ALL found clearly/decisively/definitively written in Al-Qur'an.
Any other syllogisms are extrapolative/conjectural/indefinite/allusory.
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Jonah, regardless of his faltering, did complete his mission.
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Faith and belief, essentially, mean the same thing, that is, to have complete/total/infallible trust in some thing.
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The malaika and dabbatin cannot make moral choices, hence, they cannot have pride nor can they disobey Allah.
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The nature/composition of the Malaika, remains an unknown.
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That the root M-L-K, was/is misunderstood/misapplied in this case.
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Iblis, one of the Jinn, it appears, is a human being. More on this later, insha-Allah.
I really enjoyed this debate/discussion and thank all who participated in it with special thanks to Idol. If anyone finds any new evidence contrary to my position, please bring it up.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?
Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.
Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.
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PEACE IDOL
Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.
Fair enough.
Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.
Hmmm..and where might that be, Idol?
Anyway, you do realize that that goes both ways...right? wink
Looking forward to your input on WHY IBLIS IS A HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN, and on 1015.
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Peace all,
After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?
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PEACE DANISH
After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?
Do you have any ideas? It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation. Make any sense to you?
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
Do you have any ideas?
Controlled (angelic/adamic) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic) thoughts as per Kyle.
It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation.
- Humans (seen); Thoughts (unseen).
- Wind (?seen?); its power and destructive nature as to what it can do or not do (unseen).
- A bee (seen); its force, strength and intend to sting (unseen).
- Clouds/rain (seen); its intent to destruct or bloom (unseen).
- Old age (seen); its intent to die (unseen).
- Scripture ? guidance (seen); what it can bring or do, as a ?force? (unseen).
- Messenger/message (?seen?); its intent (unseen).
We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).
With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.
Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".
Make any sense to you?
Keep it going friend, there?s a lot to comprehend.
GOD Bless.
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Excellent post Danish!
Here's an ayah to ponder
4130 Those who say Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.
Now I wonder how many people who believe in Allah and live righteously have seen or heard these angels, or is it that these angels are the "feelings" of harmony, peace, connectedness, and bliss, feelings that await the righteous in the Hereafter.
Peace,
Tay -
PEACE DANISH
We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).
Hmmm...perhaps, but I see only one kind of human--homo sapien sapiens which is comprised of males and females and jinn and men.
With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.
No offense taken, Danish, we are here to find the truth. If you can elucidate on Idol's theory and make it clearer for me all the better. The controlled versus uncontrolled thought position is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Although I absolutely reject the notion of winged beings with white robes, halos and harps, I am inclined to believe the angels are the forces of this creation i.e. x-rays, sound waves, electricity, hurricanes as well as the forces/angels which bring them into existence . I cannot, yet anyway, concretely categorize "thought" as angels, however, I cann see thoughts allegorically as "angelic thinking/behavior".
Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".
Your example reminds me of the old cartoon with a person who has to make a moral decision and has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other each trying to influence him . What makes me reluctant to view the angels as thoughts are ayats 4136 and 1649-50 which suggest that the angels are a category of creation just as humans and the animals are categories of creation.
I think the root word M-L-K needs to be re-examined. I think that maliaka and malik, are different terms although they share the same root, if in fact that is the case.
Looking forward to your reply and analysis.
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Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.
Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !
Or isn?t the logic there ?
Gods Blessings.
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PEACE MZ 357
I used this same ayat in my analysis of the Jinn. See the thre last few post on the thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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From PRL
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= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folkI remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.
As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL). -
I have also noticed some bumped posts in the christianity section. Normally, someone would like to post their thoughts on old threads and then they get bumped up or they just read them )
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Not to be intrusive here, but that thread talks about sexuality as opposed to Iblis being an 'angel' or not? Please clarify?
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Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.
Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !
Or isn?t the logic there ?
Gods Blessings.
Salaam All,
Question
I am completely ignorant on the issue of Jinn here and everywhere else in the Quran however. What is their significance/meaning? How do progressives interpret Jinn?
Answer
Imagine Muhammad had to explain Jinn to a mindset of 1400 years ago, when people considered the world is flat. In English definition, we just had the translation for this word about 50 years ago. Could Jinn be equated to Extraterrestrials (ET). God always gives us things in pairs, for example, 'ins - human' and 'jinn - et'; day and night; woman and man; and asks us not to compare these pairs as they are not alike. But look at the advantages in them.
If one compares day and night, what does one sees. The day could be white and the night could be black. While, the could be day scouring heat and the night could be beautiful breeze. This is comparing them as opposite poles. Is this comparison fair? No, this is a linear thinking, not multi dimensional. We are not looking at the advantages given to them. Now let us make a circle of the day and night, keeping one on the left and the other on the right. Now let us see how these two merge into each other and how many different shades are in them.
The South Park is created, written and voiced by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, and recently these two were interviewed on TV. One of them said, that he believes in God, but can't understand that the Kingdom of God is sooo, soooo vast, why we are the only intelligent being in this vast Kingdom. Now let us take the pair of ins and jinn and make a circle of this pair. Try to imagine how many shades are in them. How many different creations are in them and realize how vast is God Kingdom. How many shades are in woman and man.
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejectors.
The implication here is that God sent human messengers (prophets) to humans and that God sent jinn messengers (prophets) to jinn. Though Koran says that Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger to both humans and jinns.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
The implication here is that the angels as messengers such as Gabriel were sent to human messengers (prophets) such as Muhammad (pbuh).
Some Semitic terms
Now concerning the word "Prophet". The first and foremost meaning of the term is "One who speaks for God". This can be established from the scriptures themselves (Exodus 71)
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And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.I believe the above is a quotation from OT, the original is in Hebrew. What is being quoting is a translation in English. I am pretty sure that the Hebrew word used in the quotation for "Prophet" is Navi (Nabi in Arabic).
Someone told me once that from Adam (the first navi) to Muhammad (the last navi) there are about 124,000 of naviim. Abraham was a navi too, but he was the first one to attain the status of rasool. Also, Abraham is the only navi and rasool who was given the status of Imam. Abraham is the only one in the Koran mentioned, who had all the three status and tittles of navi, rasool and imam.
I believe that all three Moshe, Jesus and Muhammad were nabi and rasool in Islam though none of these three had the title of Imam. I am not sure that Aaron was a rasool or not, though he a nabi (navi) in Islam. Usually the word nabi (navi) is translated in English as prophet and the word rasool is translated in English as messenger. A rasool is a carrier of the risala (message). The OT verse quoted above mentions, Moses a god to Pharaoh and Aaron his (Moses' brother shall be Moses prophet. Aaron would be a navi to his brother Moses, who is a rasool.
Mohamed
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Be patient with me. These are only my thoughts at this point in time.
And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
We all obey God whether we like it or not. We obey Him by being subject to the laws of nature, implemented by Him. For instance, if I jump off the 50th floor, my body will go splat and I will die. It's maybe not very obvious to everyone, but indirectly, I am obeying God. There's no chance that I will survive. Same, if I jump off a cliff, and my body touches the ground, I WILL die.
Now maybe that's the true meaning of "controller". In this example, it would be the controller of Gravity and the controller of Death, who took action. As the Qur'an says, they cannot disobey God. Literally. They don't have the choice.Also, in another thread, I suggested that the two "controllers" who are supposedly writing down all our good deeds, bad deeds and our thoughts may just be another allusion to our brain the right side and the left side. (You may find the thread here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597444.msg215276#msg215276). This idea brought me to the conclusion that the controllers definitely affect the way our body works. It is through them that God makes our heart beat, our lungs breathe, our feet walk. They are the signs of God's infinite power, and through them, He intervenes in the world.
From what I've understood, God did ask the controllers to bow to mankind, but the jinn didn't. You will understand why.
God says that the jinn are "creatures with free will". This means that they can make decisions, plan, act. In addition, God says that each one of us has a qareen from among the jinn. In other words, we all have this creature within us, who has his own free will, who can make decision, plan, act. I'm not going to go all "psychological" on you now, but have any of you heard the theory of the id, the ego and the super-ego?Go on wikipedia. This is the explanation it gives of the id "The id is responsible for our basic drives such as food, water, sex, and basic impulses. It is amoral and egocentric, ruled by the pleasure?pain principle; it is without a sense of time, completely illogical, primarily sexual, infantile in its emotional development, and will not take "no" for an answer. It is regarded as the reservoir of the libido or "instinctive drive to create".
What's even more interesting is that Freud describes the id, as being "the dark, inaccessible part of our personality".
It is too long to explain my theory about how the human being (ego) must battle with his jinn (id) to reach peace and submission (super-ego), but I do want to add something. I think that it is only when man battles his jinn that he can reach submission. Okay, this is weird. I just noticed that Submission (Islam) can mean submission of the human being to God, but also submission of the id to the ego. Oh my God... I'll be right back. I need to think. confused
Peace,
Muse
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Okay, I was saying "the human being (ego) must battle with his jinn (id) to reach peace and submission (super-ego)".
For a moment, I thought that I was saying that the super-ego was God. But I've come to realize that by battling one's jinn, the human being isn't reaching the status of God, he's reaching the status of controller (in constant praise of God). He obeys God at all times, no matter what.
However, to reach this status is impossible, because the man (ego) is constantly in battle with his jinn (id). This is a universal truth. No human is perfect. He will continue to eat, drink, have sexual intercourse, etc. His basic desires will always be present. He can control them, but he can't get rid of them.
The super-ego is thus characterised by its desire to reach perfection. Even though it will never actually reaches perfection, this is where God's infinite Mercy kicks in. And ta-daaa! You're all forgiven.Have I completely strayed off topic, or am I making sense?
