WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace be upon you PB,
This is all very beautiful and flowery discourse, however, Allah, is very specific about things and He clearly dictated in 2177 that which we are to have faith in You are still not dealing with this critical fact.
Yes it is a fact that we are to have faith in the things listed in 2177, I agree to that and never differed. The difference is that you do not see these as descriptions, but rather titles. I understand that, because that understanding was planted in us and watered for a very long time. But we have to unlearn what we have learned and allow the reading to speak to us. There is a "good" side and "bad" side to everything, and the movement between these two "states" is like the merging of the day and night, gradual, by degree. All of the things mentioned in 2177, besides the God because He is the ALL (omnipresent), are the "positive/good" sides, but all of them have the "negative/side", and each side has a description.
Think of this, there is a vent that gives out air(jinn), if you turn the temperature knob to the left, you get hot air(shayteen), if you turn it in the right direction you get cold air(malaika). All of it is air(jinn).
WE are in control of the temperature knob, and this story is illustrated in the story of Adam and Iblis.
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But messengers are human, if you cannot have faith in humans, how can you ever have faith in messengers?I here your lament, however, nowhere does Allah say to have faith in humans at large, only in His Messengers.
(1411) Their messengers said to them "That we are except humans similar/equal to you.."
If a human being delivers TRUTH, you should have faith in the human because he is a HUMAN messenger.
(1794) And what prevented/forbid the people that they have faith when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Did The God send a human, messenger?"
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What do you mean by "appears"? Why are you trying to water down the FACT that he was charged with a mission to deliver the message and he REJECTED that mission, initially.(2187) ...so he called/cried in the darknesses "Truly no God except You, Your glory, truly I was from the unjust/oppressive.
Did Jonah reject INITAILLY? Yes or No.
I said "appears", because unlike yourself, I don't want to say anything about Allah's Messengers which could be interpreted as slanderous. I don't know for certain if Jonah, as you put it, initially "rejected" his mission or as I put it "faltered" in it.
Please give it thought so that perhaps you will come to an understanding, uncertainty is the same as doubt, as the faithful are not doubters. I see it clearlythat Jonah rejected his mission, that is why he ended up in the big fish in unstable environment. Once he came to his senses, he was returned to a stable environment(land) and began to spread the message.
So, while it can be said that Jonah INITIALLY faltered in his mission, ultimately, he did not fail in it, because he did deliver the message to his people. Is this true...YES or NO?
Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.
Given that, he did deliver the message given to him, as did ALL of the other Messengers, is why Allah says to have faith in them , because not ONE ever failed to complete his mission of delivering the Message... YES or NO?
I cannot say that because the God tells us there are messengers he never told us about;
(4164) And messengers We had narrated/relayed them to you from before, and messengers We did not narrate/relay about them on you, and God conversed/spoke (to) Moses conversationally/speechfully
also
(567) You, you the messenger, deliver what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, truly The God does not guide the unfaithful people.
I know you desperately wanted to use Jonah's example to rationalize your other erroneous position that, Iblis was a malaika who rejected. The problem with attempting to use Jonah however is this. The Maliaka and Messengers, by Allah's definition are in fallible in their duty to Him, hence, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them.
Sure, just make sure you don't stop verifying and start accepting all things blindly from them, because they can turn on you, that is why the only one worth serving is the God.
Now, although Jonah did initially falter in his assigned task, he ultimately did accept and carry it out in full. Now, for the Maliaka to remain in the same group with those mentioned in 2177, Iblis, had he been a Malaika, despite, initially refusing to submit to Adam, would have had to, as did Jonah, accept and carry out Allah's command to him to submit. Given that, Iblis did not do this, the Maliaka then, as a group, are now tainted as doubtful, hence, complete/total/infallible trust in them cannot be given, hence, ayat 2177, given your position, is now in contradiction with itself...and how can that be possible.
Ohh, I am glad we took this path this time, and can see your dilemma from this angle. Let me alleviate your concerns.
"iblis" is the description of one who chooses "shayteen" over "malaika". Look at what the "shayteen" will say in the end.
(1422) And the rejecting thoughts(alshshaytanu) said when the matter/affair/order/command was passed/judged "That The God promised you, the truth's promise, and I promised you, so I broke the promise to you, and (there) was not from a power to me on you except that I called you, so you answered to me, so do not blame me and blame your minds, I am not with aiding you, and you are not with aiding me, truly I had no faith with what you made me a partner (with God) from before. Truly the unjust/oppressive, for them (is) a painful torture."
the rejecteing thoughts(shateenu) of the perverse one (iblis) will deliver the TRUTH! But then my brother, it will be too late, as it was with Pharoah.
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You just answeed your own question, we don't really on MEN, we really on TRUTH that comes form the mouths of men, but must be verified by your own self. If the informatin is true, than it was a messenger that deliivered it, if it is not true, it was just a man delivering a false story.Idol, what are you talking about?? We are not talking about verifying anything, we are talking about the infallibility of those things mentioned in ayat 2177 which Allah COMMANDS us to have faith in, that is, complete/total/infallible trust in.
Yes, have faith in those things, I do not disagree with that.
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You are trying to give people TITLES instead of descriptions, that is why you are having trouble with the CHANGE. The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood, he is no longer ESCRIBED as a messenger. YOu see, if it were a title, we would not have this flexibility, but since it is a description, we have to first verify WHAT IT IS that we are recieving. That is why your sight and hearing will be questioned.My, my, Idol, you are getting desperate. I haven't given anyone any title...Allah, gave the title "MESSENGER", hence, obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER" , get it? What are you talking about?!
The God gave the description "messenger", not TITLE "MESSENGER", there is a big difference and I urge you to ponder it brother.
Now, I demand that you go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where a Messenger from Allah, spread a falsehood. This you MUST do or immediately retract this "insane" assertion.
Thats impossible because once a messenger speaks a falsehood, they lose the description of rasool(messenger/sender).
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No, you have changed it to "failed mission", I said that a messenger can REJECt the message, but the MISSION OF THE MESSENGERS will continue with or without the "man".What do you mean I changed it to "failed mission", what are you talking about?! Jonah, did not REJECT THE MESSAGE, he faltered, intially, in carrying it out...a huge difference. Now, once again, go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger can REJECT Allah's Message. Even if you can find such an ayat, you still must post the ayat where that ACTUALLY happened!
Since messengers are descriptions, they lose that description the moment they spread falsehood.
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A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.This is not our arguement and you well know that. Our argument is, can and did, a Messenger fail in his mission to deliver the Message of Allah.
Our debate is if iblis was a malaika, but I understand we have travelled around quite a bit and it might be confusing if you are not paying close attention.
We are not discussing who follows or rejects what Message they brought...stay focused.
Yes sir D
Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.
I agree.
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There is no doubt on messengers, if the man rejects, he is no longer a messenger, justlike when a malaika rejects, it is no longer a malaika. Same for submitters.Once again, where did ANY Messenger reject carrying out his mission to deliver Allah's Message. POST THAT MESSENGER'S NAME AND THE AYATS WHICH SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.
Jonah did, you know the verses.
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I am firm and patient brother, like a tree planted by the river of water whose roots are dug deep into the earth. Please continue.Hmmm...I debated another individual on a different forum who offered a similar metaphor. I told him that..he was more like a donkey planted planted in the road.
Shame for him.
Please take time and think on the position I am giving to you.
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PEACE IDOL
Yes it is a fact that we are to have faith in the things listed in 2177, I agree to that and never differed
.Thank you, and to have faith in them, means, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them that they will not fail in their duty to Allah...ever, do we agree, Idol? YES OR NO?
The difference is that you do not see these as descriptions, but rather titles.
Listen, call them what you want, the reality remains this
Allah, has commanded us to have faith in them, meaning, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them that they will not fail in their duty to Allah...ever, do we agree, YES OR NO?
PREIST BOMEI I here your lament, however, nowhere does Allah say to have faith in humans at large, only in His Messengers.
(1411) Their messengers said to them "That we are except humans similar/equal to you.."
If a human being delivers TRUTH, you should have faith in the human because he is a HUMAN messenger.
(1794) And what prevented/forbid the people that they have faith when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Did The God send a human, messenger?"
Idol, please re-phrase, because your above comment has nothing to do with or debate nor the reality that...Allah's "hand picked" Messengers, cannot fail in their mission/duty to Him. You are still trying to duck this very critical reality/issue/truth.
Please give it thought so that perhaps you will come to an understanding, uncertainty is the same as doubt, as the faithful are not doubters. I see it clearlythat Jonah rejected his mission, that is why he ended up in the big fish in unstable environment. Once he came to his senses, he was returned to a stable environment(land) and began to spread the message.
No, Idol, you give it some thought and stop slandering Jonah, which is haram to do, and simply admit that, while he did INITIALLY falter in regard to his mission, ultimately, he did not reject his mission, but accepted and carried it out fully in accordance with Allah's command. Had Jonah rejected his mission, then, the following ayat could not be true
1098 And wherefore was there not a town which should believe so that their belief should have profited them but the people of Yunus? When they believed, We removed from them the chastisement of disgrace in this world's life and We gave them provision till a time.
PEIST BOKMEI So, while it can be said that Jonah INITIALLY faltered in his mission, ultimately, he did not fail in it, because he did deliver the message to his people. Is this true...YES or NO?
Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.
Well, about time, what took you so long...afraid that Allah might send a BIG FISH for ya unless you submitted? LOL!... D
Anyway, by finally admitting this, you can now see that as with the perfect record of the Messengers, ALL of the things mentioned in 2177 cannot possibly fail in their duty to Allah, hence, we are commanded to have faith in them, meaning, complete/total/infallible trust in them that they cannot fail in their duty to Allah or mankind.
Given that, he did deliver the message given to him, as did ALL of the other Messengers, is why Allah says to have faith in them , because not ONE ever failed to complete his mission of delivering the Message... YES or NO?
I cannot say that because the God tells us there are messengers he never told us about;
Man, will you please stop already? Don't you know that by saying that, you cast doubt on the integrity of Allah's Messenger Corps? If none failed to your knowledge, in that, they were "hand-picked" by Allah to carry His Message, then how could any of them fail simply because Allah doesn't mention them?! What is wrong you, man? Really, Idol, you've got to stop with this line of discourse.
PREIST BOMEI I know you desperately wanted to use Jonah's example to rationalize your other erroneous position that, Iblis was a malaika who rejected. The problem with attempting to use Jonah however is this. The Maliaka and Messengers, by Allah's definition are in fallible in their duty to Him, hence, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them.
Sure, just make sure you don't stop verifying and start accepting all things blindly from them, because they can turn on you, that is why the only one worth serving is the God.
Oh, so Allah, His Maliaka, His Quran and His Messengers, have at some point, in their existence, turned on mankind unrighteously, is this your position?
PREIST BOKMEI Now, although Jonah did initially falter in his assigned task, he ultimately did accept and carry it out in full. Now, for the Maliaka to remain in the same group with those mentioned in 2177, Iblis, had he been a Malaika, despite, initially refusing to submit to Adam, would have had to, as did Jonah, accept and carry out Allah's command to him to submit. Given that, Iblis did not do this, the Maliaka then, as a group, are now tainted as doubtful, hence, complete/total/infallible trust in them cannot be given, hence, ayat 2177, given your position, is now in contradiction with itself...and how can that be possible.
Ohh, I am glad we took this path this time, and can see your dilemma from this angle. Let me alleviate your concerns. "iblis" is the description of one who chooses "shayteen" over "malaika". Look at what the "shayteen" will say in the end.
(1422) And the rejecting thoughts(alshshaytanu) said when the matter/affair/order/command was passed/judged "That The God promised you, the truth's promise, and I promised you, so I broke the promise to you, and (there) was not from a power to me on you except that I called you, so you answered to me, so do not blame me and blame your minds, I am not with aiding you, and you are not with aiding me, truly I had no faith with what you made me a partner (with God) from before. Truly the unjust/oppressive, for them (is) a painful torture."
the rejecteing thoughts(shateenu) of the perverse one (iblis) will deliver the TRUTH! But then my brother, it will be too late, as it was with Pharoah
.I agree, however, Iblis, was not one of those mentioned in ayat 2177, otherwise, doubt would be cast on all of those mentioned in that ayat. Iblis, being a Jinn human being, does represent a mind that rejects.
PREIST BOKMEI Idol, what are you talking about?? We are not talking about verifying anything, we are talking about the infallibility of those things mentioned in ayat 2177 which Allah COMMANDS us to have faith in, that is, complete/total/infallible trust in.
Yes, have faith in those things, I do not disagree with that.
And, do you agree that, "faith", means...the complete/total/infallible trust in in those things mentioned in ayat 2177, that is, they cannot fail in their duty to Allah or mankind...ever?, YES or NO?
My, my, Idol, you are getting desperate. I haven't given anyone any title...Allah, gave the title "MESSENGER", hence, obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER" , get it? What are you talking about?!
The God gave the description "messenger", not TITLE "MESSENGER", there is a big difference and I urge you to ponder it brother.
Well, I have no problem with Messenger being both a title and a description, however, The Messengers of Allah, call it what you want,...not one...ever...failed in his mission/duty, to deliver Allah's Message. Do you agree, YES or NO?
Now, I demand that you go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where a Messenger from Allah, spread a falsehood. This you MUST do or immediately retract this "insane" assertion.
Thats impossible because once a messenger speaks a falsehood, they lose the description of rasool(messenger/sender). The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood,
Produce the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger at anytime...ever...told a falsehood, and then his Messenger commission was rescinded?! If you cannot do this, then, immediately retract this fitna/slanderous implication of the Messengerhood. To even imply such a thing is haram.
What do you mean I changed it to "failed mission", what are you talking about?! Jonah, did not REJECT THE MESSAGE, he faltered, intially, in carrying it out...a huge difference. Now, once again, go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger can REJECT Allah's Message. Even if you can find such an ayat, you still must post the ayat where that ACTUALLY happened!
Since messengers are descriptions, they lose that description the moment they spread falsehood.
What falsehood did Jonah spread?! Post the ayat where Allah says he spread a falsehood. If you cannot do this, then have the fear of Allah and personal honor, to immediately retract this fitna/slanderous implication of his Messengership.
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A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.This is not our arguement and you well know that. Our argument is, can and did, a Messenger fail in his mission to deliver the Message of Allah.
Our debate is if iblis was a malaika, but I understand we have travelled around quite a bit and it might be confusing if you are not paying close attention.
LOLx10!! The only one who is confused is YOU, bro. You are saying one un-Quranic thing after another. No, Idol, it is you who'd better start paying attention to the gravity of some of your direct and implied remarks. For example, you confuse faltering with rejection and spreading falsehood, now that IS being confused.
Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.
I agree.
Well, thank you, and if you agree, then Iblis, could not have been one of the malaika, because that would have meant and would mean, as a group, the malaika can no longer be totally/completely trusted/deemed infallible in their duty to Allah, because one of its members failed, thus, we cannot have complet/total trust or faith in them. In addition, if the maliaka failed, then all of the other mentioned things in ayat 2177, likwise, cannot be fully trusted/have faith in. All of those mentioned groups in ayat 2177 form GROUP themselves within ayat 2177, hence, if one of those groups fail, then, the entire group as a group has failed.
PREIST BOKMEI Once again, where did ANY Messenger reject carrying out his mission to deliver Allah's Message. POST THAT MESSENGER'S NAME AND THE AYATS WHICH SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.
Jonah did, you know the verses.
IDOL Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.
PREIST BOKMEI Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.
IDOL I agree.
When you agreed to my above statements in bold, you proved that Iblis could not have been a malaika, thank you, checkmate.
Your pride has no bounds, in that, despite, your own admission that Jonah carried out his mission in full, you still continue to turn around and say that he didn't...you are lost and confused at the moment.
Shame for him.
But...woe...is to you...
Please take time and think on the position I am giving to you.
Avail yourself of your own advice. Read back this and your own post and you will see how often you've contradicted yourself and made totally un-Quranic assertions. You are very confused by your own convoluted discourses...and you've only baffled yourself...ponder that, bro.
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Peace be upon you Dhul/PB,
It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says
(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace."
Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".
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PEACE IDOL
It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says
(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace." Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".
Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?
Some findings from this debate
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Iblis, was not of the malaika, for had he been, ayat 2177 would be a huge contradiction.
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The Quranic logic regarding this question
A) the malaika were told to bow down and did, Iblis did not.
B) the malaika do not disobey/rebel against Allah, but carry out His commands.
C) Iblis, cannot be one of the malaika, because he disobeyed/rebelled, he was of the JINN.
- A, B, and C are ALL found clearly/decisively/definitively written in Al-Qur'an.
Any other syllogisms are extrapolative/conjectural/indefinite/allusory.
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Jonah, regardless of his faltering, did complete his mission.
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Faith and belief, essentially, mean the same thing, that is, to have complete/total/infallible trust in some thing.
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The malaika and dabbatin cannot make moral choices, hence, they cannot have pride nor can they disobey Allah.
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The nature/composition of the Malaika, remains an unknown.
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That the root M-L-K, was/is misunderstood/misapplied in this case.
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Iblis, one of the Jinn, it appears, is a human being. More on this later, insha-Allah.
I really enjoyed this debate/discussion and thank all who participated in it with special thanks to Idol. If anyone finds any new evidence contrary to my position, please bring it up.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?
Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.
Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.
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PEACE IDOL
Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.
Fair enough.
Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.
Hmmm..and where might that be, Idol?
Anyway, you do realize that that goes both ways...right? wink
Looking forward to your input on WHY IBLIS IS A HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN, and on 1015.
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Peace all,
After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?
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PEACE DANISH
After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?
Do you have any ideas? It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation. Make any sense to you?
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
Do you have any ideas?
Controlled (angelic/adamic) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic) thoughts as per Kyle.
It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation.
- Humans (seen); Thoughts (unseen).
- Wind (?seen?); its power and destructive nature as to what it can do or not do (unseen).
- A bee (seen); its force, strength and intend to sting (unseen).
- Clouds/rain (seen); its intent to destruct or bloom (unseen).
- Old age (seen); its intent to die (unseen).
- Scripture ? guidance (seen); what it can bring or do, as a ?force? (unseen).
- Messenger/message (?seen?); its intent (unseen).
We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).
With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.
Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".
Make any sense to you?
Keep it going friend, there?s a lot to comprehend.
GOD Bless.
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Excellent post Danish!
Here's an ayah to ponder
4130 Those who say Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.
Now I wonder how many people who believe in Allah and live righteously have seen or heard these angels, or is it that these angels are the "feelings" of harmony, peace, connectedness, and bliss, feelings that await the righteous in the Hereafter.
Peace,
Tay -
PEACE DANISH
We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).
Hmmm...perhaps, but I see only one kind of human--homo sapien sapiens which is comprised of males and females and jinn and men.
With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.
No offense taken, Danish, we are here to find the truth. If you can elucidate on Idol's theory and make it clearer for me all the better. The controlled versus uncontrolled thought position is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Although I absolutely reject the notion of winged beings with white robes, halos and harps, I am inclined to believe the angels are the forces of this creation i.e. x-rays, sound waves, electricity, hurricanes as well as the forces/angels which bring them into existence . I cannot, yet anyway, concretely categorize "thought" as angels, however, I cann see thoughts allegorically as "angelic thinking/behavior".
Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".
Your example reminds me of the old cartoon with a person who has to make a moral decision and has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other each trying to influence him . What makes me reluctant to view the angels as thoughts are ayats 4136 and 1649-50 which suggest that the angels are a category of creation just as humans and the animals are categories of creation.
I think the root word M-L-K needs to be re-examined. I think that maliaka and malik, are different terms although they share the same root, if in fact that is the case.
Looking forward to your reply and analysis.
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Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.
Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !
Or isn?t the logic there ?
Gods Blessings.
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PEACE MZ 357
I used this same ayat in my analysis of the Jinn. See the thre last few post on the thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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From PRL
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= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folkI remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.
As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL). -
I have also noticed some bumped posts in the christianity section. Normally, someone would like to post their thoughts on old threads and then they get bumped up or they just read them )
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Not to be intrusive here, but that thread talks about sexuality as opposed to Iblis being an 'angel' or not? Please clarify?
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Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.
Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !
Or isn?t the logic there ?
Gods Blessings.
Salaam All,
Question
I am completely ignorant on the issue of Jinn here and everywhere else in the Quran however. What is their significance/meaning? How do progressives interpret Jinn?
Answer
Imagine Muhammad had to explain Jinn to a mindset of 1400 years ago, when people considered the world is flat. In English definition, we just had the translation for this word about 50 years ago. Could Jinn be equated to Extraterrestrials (ET). God always gives us things in pairs, for example, 'ins - human' and 'jinn - et'; day and night; woman and man; and asks us not to compare these pairs as they are not alike. But look at the advantages in them.
If one compares day and night, what does one sees. The day could be white and the night could be black. While, the could be day scouring heat and the night could be beautiful breeze. This is comparing them as opposite poles. Is this comparison fair? No, this is a linear thinking, not multi dimensional. We are not looking at the advantages given to them. Now let us make a circle of the day and night, keeping one on the left and the other on the right. Now let us see how these two merge into each other and how many different shades are in them.
The South Park is created, written and voiced by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, and recently these two were interviewed on TV. One of them said, that he believes in God, but can't understand that the Kingdom of God is sooo, soooo vast, why we are the only intelligent being in this vast Kingdom. Now let us take the pair of ins and jinn and make a circle of this pair. Try to imagine how many shades are in them. How many different creations are in them and realize how vast is God Kingdom. How many shades are in woman and man.
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejectors.
The implication here is that God sent human messengers (prophets) to humans and that God sent jinn messengers (prophets) to jinn. Though Koran says that Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger to both humans and jinns.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
The implication here is that the angels as messengers such as Gabriel were sent to human messengers (prophets) such as Muhammad (pbuh).
Some Semitic terms
Now concerning the word "Prophet". The first and foremost meaning of the term is "One who speaks for God". This can be established from the scriptures themselves (Exodus 71)
Quote
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.I believe the above is a quotation from OT, the original is in Hebrew. What is being quoting is a translation in English. I am pretty sure that the Hebrew word used in the quotation for "Prophet" is Navi (Nabi in Arabic).
Someone told me once that from Adam (the first navi) to Muhammad (the last navi) there are about 124,000 of naviim. Abraham was a navi too, but he was the first one to attain the status of rasool. Also, Abraham is the only navi and rasool who was given the status of Imam. Abraham is the only one in the Koran mentioned, who had all the three status and tittles of navi, rasool and imam.
I believe that all three Moshe, Jesus and Muhammad were nabi and rasool in Islam though none of these three had the title of Imam. I am not sure that Aaron was a rasool or not, though he a nabi (navi) in Islam. Usually the word nabi (navi) is translated in English as prophet and the word rasool is translated in English as messenger. A rasool is a carrier of the risala (message). The OT verse quoted above mentions, Moses a god to Pharaoh and Aaron his (Moses' brother shall be Moses prophet. Aaron would be a navi to his brother Moses, who is a rasool.
Mohamed
