WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I cut out the beginning of your post because it all boiled down to this next statement where you show that you don't even know that 'amana' means "faith".

Unless I'm mistaken, "faith" is "eman" and that term does not appear in ayats 2177 or 4136 , hence, your request violates Allah's Quran.

Now you are getting it! D Yes, "amana" means faith, but people have changed it to "believe" , just like they changed the word "serve" to "worship".

Would you please provide your evidence for Allah, meaning The God.

The word "Allah" comes from "Al" (The) and "Ilah" (God), and is joined to become "Allah" (The God). Very Simple. Not a name, a description, the Most High is above being "named".

You sound like a used car salesman.

Ohhhhh. ?

Quote
If someone just says it and automatically you do it, then yes, but if you sit back and witness the creation, you will see that the ENDING TIME is evident. All causes lead to an effect, and KNOWING THAT, one can have faith in the ENDING TIME. Don't you have faith that if you put your hand in fire that it will burn?

Then there is no doubt about the LAST DAY whether one believes it or not for Allah has decreed it, so, do you have faith in Allah and the Last Day, in that, there is no doubt that they cannot fail...ever? Do you believe that, do you have absolute trust in that, yes or no? If you believe that, then, you are locked into believing that what Allah says about the malaika as well, in that, there is no doubt that they cannot fail...ever, that one can have absolute faith in them as with Allah and the Last Day.

I have faith in the God and the ending time, Yes. I have faith in the malaika, Yes. And they cannot fail,EXCEPT IBLIS! So as long as I, or anyone, stays away from the "iblis" mindset, there is nothing to fear.

If a malaika can change into a shaitan, then, you cannot possibly have absolute belief/faith in them, because you can never predict when one might turm into a shaitan, hence, 2177 and 4136 are meaningless. is this still your position?

Yes, you can predict, when you turn away from the God and stop remembering Him, be sure that the malaika will turn to shayteen.

(4336) And who ignores about the Merciful's reminder, We assign for him a shaytaan, so he is for him a companion/friend

Quote Tell me, for a fact, what, if anything, do you believe cannot fail you..ever?

Following the path of the God.

Who is it that told you that? And whoever that might be...can that you have absolute belief/faith in the being that told you that that what was told you is the absolute truth ?

My observations of life show me that, and yes, I have FAITH in that because I see how planting seeds of righteousness produce righteous rewards. Do you not see it?

You've been given proof after proof after proof. It is simply with you as it was Iblis...your pride prevents you from submitting to the proof.

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis.

Tell you what, post the ayat where Allah says His malaika can breakdown. If you post it I'll see it, trust me.

"breakdown" was used for your car analogy. In regards to "malaika" we are talking about rejecting, not following orders. The verse that PROVES this is that the malaika prostrated EXCEPT iblis, but even though yu said you would have faith if shown, I have doubt, because you have been shown this verse in probably every post.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

I cut out the beginning of your post because it all boiled down to this next statement where you show that you don't even know that 'amana' means "faith". Now you are getting it! Yes, "amana" means faith, but people have changed it to "believe" , just like they changed the word "serve" to "worship".

No, let's not cut it out. You have tried to duck this analysis since I posted it days ago, no more ducking

Quote 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

Change "believe" into "have faith"

Quote 4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Change "believe" to "have faith"

What kind of game are you playing?! On Thursday Oct. 7, 948 page 20, I quote you in response to my using "believe".

IDOL Let me stop you here, do you believe in iblis? Do you believe in rejectors and hypocrites? The God is not telling us to believe in anything, He is telling us to have faith in them, big difference. Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

I responded with

PREIST Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled? What is there to convince the believer that, another angel/malaika could not do, as Iblis did, rebel/become a shaitanl?

PREIST Does Allah, tell you to have faith in the sun, Idol? No, but He does tell you to have faith, that is, complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Book and His Messengers...nothing about having faith in anything else.

Then, I responded with the following

Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.

Main Entry FAITH complete trust.

Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.

Main Entry SHALL/SHOULD used to express a command or exhortation used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory.

The meanings of belief and faith ARE IDENTICAL, meaning, to have COMPLETE TRUST in something, that is, CONVICTION.

Now, after rejecting my using "believe" by telling me to use "faith", which I did, you rejected that as well, and, now you tell me...Change "believe" to "have faith". So, even if you could change belief to faith, the meanings remain the same, good God.

Please address the above.

unknownuser

Peace be pon you PB,

Quote
I cut out the beginning of your post because it all boiled down to this next statement where you show that you don't even know that 'amana' means "faith". Now you are getting it! Yes, "amana" means faith, but people have changed it to "believe" , just like they changed the word "serve" to "worship".

No, let's not cut it out. You have tried to duck this analysis since I posted it days ago, no more ducking

I have ducked nothing, I cut out the first portion of that post because it was redundant to the question that I DID answer.

Please address the above.

Please see PB's last post to see what He stated, I do not intend to waste so much space.**

Brother PB, let me give you a verse that I hope will stop all this confusion;

(4914) The Arabs said "We have faith." Say "You do not have faith, and but say 'We submit' and the faith did not enter in your hearts. And if you obey The God and His messenger He does not reduce/diminish you a thing from your deeds , that truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful."

You from above, we can conclude that it TAKES TIME to have faith, you don't just 'BELIEVE' something right away, that is blind faith. You must experience something for a time in order to have FAITH. So for now, just submit, until you see so many examples that you begin to have faith.

Im my posts, sometimes I write "believe" instead of "faith" because it is ingrained in me from tradition, please know that I mean faith. I will try to correct that from now on.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Brother PB, let me give you a verse that I hope will stop all this confusion;

(4914) The Arabs said "We have faith." Say "You do not have faith, and but say 'We submit' and the faith did not enter in your hearts. And if you obey The God and His messenger He does not reduce/diminish you a thing from your deeds , that truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful."

You from above, we can conclude that it TAKES TIME to have faith, you don't just 'BELIEVE' something right away, that is blind faith. You must experience something for a time in order to have FAITH. So for now, just submit, until you see so many examples that you begin to have faith.

Im my posts, sometimes I write "believe" instead of "faith" because it is ingrained in me from tradition, please know that I mean faith. I will try to correct that from now on.

Idol, whether you use "faith" or "believe" it doesn't matter, because as the definitions clearly indicate, both terms are exactly interchangeable and mean to have complete/total trust. I don't know why you continue to avoid this meaning. If you don't believe me then consult an Arabic dictionary and you will see.

The Arabs said "We have faith." Say "You do not have faith, and but say 'We submit' and the faith did not enter in your hearts. And if you obey The God and His messenger He does not reduce/diminish you a thing from your deeds , that truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful."

Now, let's contrast the ayat you posted and the following one

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the messengers.

Your ayat makes my point, in that, Allah says to have "faith" in Him, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets. These are the ONLY things which Allah says to have "faith" in. Allah, from my understanding, never tells us to have "faith" in each other, but ONLY in the above aforementioned things. We cannot have faith in ourselves or each other, because we are not fully trustworthy, whereas, the above mentioned things are fully trustworthy and will not fail to either carry out Allah's commands or in their guidance or both.

Allah, fully trust worthy.
Al-Quran, is fully trustworty.
The Last Day, is fully trustworthy, in that, it will occur.
The Messengers, were fully trustworthy, in that, they ALL carried out what they were commanded to do.

Now, all of the above are mentioned in the same company with Allah, hence, they can never fail, yet, you want to maintain that the angels/maliaka have failed, in that, one of their company rebelled, despite, being in the same company as the above which cannot fail.

Idol, do you fully grasp the gravity of what you are saying here?

You are contradicting Allah and casting Allah as being untruthful and contradictory.

Idol, at this point, don't you think it is just time to admit that you're mistaken? It just makes no sense for you to continue anthropomorphize
Allah. Are you really ready for that kind of weight?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Idol, whether you use "faith" or "believe" it doesn't matter, because as the definitions clearly indicate, both terms are exactly interchangeable and mean to have complete/total trust. I don't know why you continue to avoid this meaning. If you don't believe me then consult an Arabic dictionary and you will see.

I've heard he same thing about "worship" and "serve", so I have to disagree with the dictionary. Anyway, only thing that is important is that you understand that "FAITH" is a process that takes time, not something you just read and "Believe", do you agree to that, yes or no?

(4914) The Arabs said "We have faith." Say "You do not have faith, and but say 'We submit' and the faith did not enter in your hearts. And if you obey The God and His messenger He does not reduce/diminish you a thing from your deeds , that truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful."

Now, let's contrast the ayat you posted and the following one

For what? Why don't you just answer the question? D Okay, I will play along...

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the messengers.

Your ayat makes my point, in that, Allah says to have "faith" in Him, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets. These are the ONLY things which Allah says to have "faith" in. Allah, from my understanding, never tells us to have "faith" in each other, but ONLY in the above aforementioned things. We cannot have faith in ourselves or each other, because we are not fully trustworthy, whereas, the above mentioned things are fully trustworthy and will not fail to either carry out Allah's commands or in their guidance or both.

Allah, fully trust worthy.
Al-Quran, is fully trustworty.
The Last Day, is fully trustworthy, in that, it will occur.
The Messengers, were fully trustworthy, in that, they ALL carried out what they were commanded to do.

I don't think you ever addresseed Jonah.

Now, all of the above are mentioned in the same company with Allah, hence, they can never fail, yet, you want to maintain that the angels/maliaka have failed, in that, one of their company rebelled, despite, being in the same company as the above which cannot fail.

Idol, do you fully grasp the gravity of what you are saying here?

You are contradicting Allah and casting Allah as being untruthful and contradictory.

Idol, at this point, don't you think it is just time to admit that you're mistaken? It just makes no sense for you to continue anthropomorphize
Allah. Are you really ready for that kind of weight?

If thats all you have, let me know so we can wrap this up.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

I've heard he same thing about "worship" and "serve", so I have to disagree with the dictionary. Anyway, only thing that is important is that you understand that "FAITH" is a process that takes time, not something you just read and "Believe", do you agree to that, yes or no?

There is no question that faith takes time to develop, however, we are not discussing the development of faith, we are discussing the fact that, Allah tells us to have/develop faith in Him, His Malaika, His Quran and His Messengers and not in ourselves or each other. Surely you must agree this obvious distinction?

I don't think you ever addresseed Jonah.

O.k., let's address Jonah then. Jonah, is a good example why Allah doesn't say to have faith in ourselves or each other, because we, as humans, all too often, fail in our responsibilities/commitments/solaa to Allah, ourselves and each other. Jonah, was commissioned to bring the Message to his people and, it appears that he initially faltered in his mission. However, the question must be asked...did he, in fact, fail in his mission to bring Allah's Message to his people? Well, the answer is known to us that he didn't and, because he didn't, his people were granted a reprieve. Hence, Jonah, as with every other Messenger...never failed to carry out his commitment/solaa/the order of Allah, to deliver the Message entrusted to them.

If the any Messenger could have failed in his commitments to Allah, then how could Allah's Word be trusted? Remember now, Allah, used humans to deliver His Message to humans, hence, if a Messenger of Allah could fail, then no one would be able to have any meaningful faith in Allah or His Messages.

For you to explicitly state or even imply that a Messenger from Allah could fail in his mission, is just astounding to me? If a Messenger cannot be trusted...then who can? and once you cast doubt on one of them, what is to prevent doubt from being associated with ALL of them?

Yes, this discussion is nearing its end. It is evident that...you have nothing Quranic to stand on and your legs are nearly gone.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

There is no question that faith takes time to develop, however, we are not discussing the development of faith, we are discussing the fact that, Allah tells us to have/develop faith in Him, His Malaika, His Quran and His Messengers and not in ourselves or each other. Surely you must agree this obvious distinction?

How can you have faith in the ONE GOD and not have faith in that which manifests from the God? The God is saying to have faith in all that is good, not that which is bad. Do you realize that humans have the divine energy(life force) of the God WITHIN THEM? So the only distinction I see is that of having faith in the righteous and all that is good, and not having faith in wickedness and all that is bad. We must always be aware because these are varying states just like night and day.

Quote
I don't think you ever addresseed Jonah.

O.k., let's address Jonah then. Jonah, is a good example why Allah doesn't say to have faith in ourselves or each other, because we, as humans, all too often, fail in our responsibilities/commitments/solaa to Allah, ourselves and each other.

But messengers are human, if you cannot have faith in humans, how can you ever have faith in messengers?

Jonah, was commissioned to bring the Message to his people and, it appears that he initially faltered in his mission.

What do you mean by "appears"? Why are you trying to water down the FACT that he was charged with a mission to deliver the message and he REJECTED that mission, initially.

However, the question must be asked...did he, in fact, fail in his mission to bring Allah's Message to his people? Well, the answer is known to us that he didn't and, because he didn't, his people were granted a reprieve. Hence, Jonah, as with every other Messenger...never failed to carry out his commitment/solaa/the order of Allah, to deliver the Message entrusted to them.

You are saying that Jonah did not

recieve a mission to deliver the message
reject that mission
Start being punished for rejection and turned back towards the God?

(2187) ...so he called/cried in the darknesses "Truly no God except You, Your glory, truly I was from the unjust/oppressive.

Did Jonah reject INITAILLY? Yes or No.

If the any Messenger could have failed in his commitments to Allah, then how could Allah's Word be trusted?

You just answeed your own question, we don't really on MEN, we really on TRUTH that comes form the mouths of men, but must be verified by your own self. If the informatin is true, than it was a messenger that deliivered it, if it is not true, it was just a man delivering a false story.

Remember now, Allah, used humans to deliver His Message to humans, hence, if a Messenger of Allah could fail, then no one would be able to have any meaningful faith in Allah or His Messages.

You are trying to give people TITLES instead of descriptions, that is why you are having trouble with the CHANGE. The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood, he is no longer ESCRIBED as a messenger. YOu see, if it were a title, we would not have this flexibility, but since it is a description, we have to first verify WHAT IT IS that we are recieving. That is why your sight and hearing will be questioned.

For you to explicitly state or even imply that a Messenger from Allah could fail in his mission, is just astounding to me?

No, you have changed it to "failed mission", I said that a messenger can REJECt the message, but the MISSION OF THE MESSENGERS will continue with or without the "man".

If a Messenger cannot be trusted...then who can?

A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.

and once you cast doubt on one of them, what is to prevent doubt from being associated with ALL of them?

There is no doubt on messengers, if the man rejects, he is no longer a messenger, justlike when a malaika rejects, it is no longer a malaika. Same for submitters.

Yes, this discussion is nearing its end. It is evident that...you have nothing Quranic to stand on and your legs are nearly gone

I am firm and patient brother, like a tree planted by the river of water whose roots are dug deep into the earth. Please continue.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

How can you have faith in the ONE GOD and not have faith in that which manifests from the God? The God is saying to have faith in all that is good, not that which is bad. Do you realize that humans have the divine energy(life force) of the God WITHIN THEM? So the only distinction I see is that of having faith in the righteous and all that is good, and not having faith in wickedness and all that is bad. We must always be aware because these are varying states just like night and day.

This is all very beautiful and flowery discourse, however, Allah, is very specific about things and He clearly dictated in 2177 that which we are to have faith in You are still not dealing with this critical fact.

But messengers are human, if you cannot have faith in humans, how can you ever have faith in messengers?

I here your lament, however, nowhere does Allah say to have faith in humans at large, only in His Messengers.

What do you mean by "appears"? Why are you trying to water down the FACT that he was charged with a mission to deliver the message and he REJECTED that mission, initially.

You are saying that Jonah did not

recieve a mission to deliver the message
reject that mission
Start being punished for rejection and turned back towards the God?

(2187) ...so he called/cried in the darknesses "Truly no God except You, Your glory, truly I was from the unjust/oppressive.

Did Jonah reject INITAILLY? Yes or No.

I said "appears", because unlike yourself, I don't want to say anything about Allah's Messengers which could be interpreted as slanderous. I don't know for certain if Jonah, as you put it, initially "rejected" his mission or as I put it "faltered" in it.

Main Entry FALTER to hesitate in purpose or action to lose drive.

Main Entry REJECT to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose.

So, while it can be said that Jonah INITIALLY faltered in his mission, ultimately, he did not fail in it, because he did deliver the message to his people. Is this true...YES or NO?

Given that, he did deliver the message given to him, as did ALL of the other Messengers, is why Allah says to have faith in them , because not ONE ever failed to complete his mission of delivering the Message... YES or NO?

I know you desperately wanted to use Jonah's example to rationalize your other erroneous position that, Iblis was a malaika who rejected. The problem with attempting to use Jonah however is this. The Maliaka and Messengers, by Allah's definition are in fallible in their duty to Him, hence, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them. Now, although Jonah did initially falter in his assigned task, he ultimately did accept and carry it out in full. Now, for the Maliaka to remain in the same group with those mentioned in 2177, Iblis, had he been a Malaika, despite, initially refusing to submit to Adam, would have had to, as did Jonah, accept and carry out Allah's command to him to submit. Given that, Iblis did not do this, the Maliaka then, as a group, are now tainted as doubtful, hence, complete/total/infallible trust in them cannot be given, hence, ayat 2177, given your position, is now in contradiction with itself...and how can that be possible. D

You just answeed your own question, we don't really on MEN, we really on TRUTH that comes form the mouths of men, but must be verified by your own self. If the informatin is true, than it was a messenger that deliivered it, if it is not true, it was just a man delivering a false story.

Idol, what are you talking about?? We are not talking about verifying anything, we are talking about the infallibility of those things mentioned in ayat 2177 which Allah COMMANDS us to have faith in, that is, complete/total/infallible trust in.

PREIST BOKMEI Remember now, Allah, used humans to deliver His Message to humans, hence, if a Messenger of Allah could fail, then no one would be able to have any meaningful faith in Allah or His Messages.

You are trying to give people TITLES instead of descriptions, that is why you are having trouble with the CHANGE. The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood, he is no longer ESCRIBED as a messenger. YOu see, if it were a title, we would not have this flexibility, but since it is a description, we have to first verify WHAT IT IS that we are recieving. That is why your sight and hearing will be questioned.

My, my, Idol, you are getting desperate. I haven't given anyone any title...Allah, gave the title "MESSENGER", hence, obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER" , get it? What are you talking about?!

Now, I demand that you go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where a Messenger from Allah, spread a falsehood. This you MUST do or immediately retract this "insane" assertion.

PRESIT BOKMEI For you to explicitly state or even imply that a Messenger from Allah could fail in his mission, is just astounding to me?

No, you have changed it to "failed mission", I said that a messenger can REJECt the message, but the MISSION OF THE MESSENGERS will continue with or without the "man".

What do you mean I changed it to "failed mission", what are you talking about?! Jonah, did not REJECT THE MESSAGE, he faltered, intially, in carrying it out...a huge difference. Now, once again, go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger can REJECT Allah's Message. Even if you can find such an ayat, you still must post the ayat where that ACTUALLY happened!

A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.

This is not our arguement and you well know that. Our argument is, can and did, a Messenger fail in his mission to deliver the Message of Allah. We are not discussing who follows or rejects what Message they brought...stay focused. Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.

There is no doubt on messengers, if the man rejects, he is no longer a messenger, justlike when a malaika rejects, it is no longer a malaika. Same for submitters.

Once again, where did ANY Messenger reject carrying out his mission to deliver Allah's Message. POST THAT MESSENGER'S NAME AND THE AYATS WHICH SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.

I am firm and patient brother, like a tree planted by the river of water whose roots are dug deep into the earth. Please continue.

Hmmm...I debated another individual on a different forum who offered a similar metaphor. I told him that..he was more like a donkey planted planted in the road. D

Peace,

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

This is all very beautiful and flowery discourse, however, Allah, is very specific about things and He clearly dictated in 2177 that which we are to have faith in You are still not dealing with this critical fact.

Yes it is a fact that we are to have faith in the things listed in 2177, I agree to that and never differed. The difference is that you do not see these as descriptions, but rather titles. I understand that, because that understanding was planted in us and watered for a very long time. But we have to unlearn what we have learned and allow the reading to speak to us. There is a "good" side and "bad" side to everything, and the movement between these two "states" is like the merging of the day and night, gradual, by degree. All of the things mentioned in 2177, besides the God because He is the ALL (omnipresent), are the "positive/good" sides, but all of them have the "negative/side", and each side has a description.

Think of this, there is a vent that gives out air(jinn), if you turn the temperature knob to the left, you get hot air(shayteen), if you turn it in the right direction you get cold air(malaika). All of it is air(jinn).

WE are in control of the temperature knob, and this story is illustrated in the story of Adam and Iblis.

Quote
But messengers are human, if you cannot have faith in humans, how can you ever have faith in messengers?

I here your lament, however, nowhere does Allah say to have faith in humans at large, only in His Messengers.

(1411) Their messengers said to them "That we are except humans similar/equal to you.."

If a human being delivers TRUTH, you should have faith in the human because he is a HUMAN messenger.

(1794) And what prevented/forbid the people that they have faith when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Did The God send a human, messenger?"

Quote
What do you mean by "appears"? Why are you trying to water down the FACT that he was charged with a mission to deliver the message and he REJECTED that mission, initially.

(2187) ...so he called/cried in the darknesses "Truly no God except You, Your glory, truly I was from the unjust/oppressive.

Did Jonah reject INITAILLY? Yes or No.

I said "appears", because unlike yourself, I don't want to say anything about Allah's Messengers which could be interpreted as slanderous. I don't know for certain if Jonah, as you put it, initially "rejected" his mission or as I put it "faltered" in it.

Please give it thought so that perhaps you will come to an understanding, uncertainty is the same as doubt, as the faithful are not doubters. I see it clearlythat Jonah rejected his mission, that is why he ended up in the big fish in unstable environment. Once he came to his senses, he was returned to a stable environment(land) and began to spread the message.

So, while it can be said that Jonah INITIALLY faltered in his mission, ultimately, he did not fail in it, because he did deliver the message to his people. Is this true...YES or NO?

Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.

Given that, he did deliver the message given to him, as did ALL of the other Messengers, is why Allah says to have faith in them , because not ONE ever failed to complete his mission of delivering the Message... YES or NO?

I cannot say that because the God tells us there are messengers he never told us about;

(4164) And messengers We had narrated/relayed them to you from before, and messengers We did not narrate/relay about them on you, and God conversed/spoke (to) Moses conversationally/speechfully

also

(567) You, you the messenger, deliver what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, truly The God does not guide the unfaithful people.

I know you desperately wanted to use Jonah's example to rationalize your other erroneous position that, Iblis was a malaika who rejected. The problem with attempting to use Jonah however is this. The Maliaka and Messengers, by Allah's definition are in fallible in their duty to Him, hence, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them.

Sure, just make sure you don't stop verifying and start accepting all things blindly from them, because they can turn on you, that is why the only one worth serving is the God.

Now, although Jonah did initially falter in his assigned task, he ultimately did accept and carry it out in full. Now, for the Maliaka to remain in the same group with those mentioned in 2177, Iblis, had he been a Malaika, despite, initially refusing to submit to Adam, would have had to, as did Jonah, accept and carry out Allah's command to him to submit. Given that, Iblis did not do this, the Maliaka then, as a group, are now tainted as doubtful, hence, complete/total/infallible trust in them cannot be given, hence, ayat 2177, given your position, is now in contradiction with itself...and how can that be possible.

Ohh, I am glad we took this path this time, and can see your dilemma from this angle. Let me alleviate your concerns.

"iblis" is the description of one who chooses "shayteen" over "malaika". Look at what the "shayteen" will say in the end.

(1422) And the rejecting thoughts(alshshaytanu) said when the matter/affair/order/command was passed/judged "That The God promised you, the truth's promise, and I promised you, so I broke the promise to you, and (there) was not from a power to me on you except that I called you, so you answered to me, so do not blame me and blame your minds, I am not with aiding you, and you are not with aiding me, truly I had no faith with what you made me a partner (with God) from before. Truly the unjust/oppressive, for them (is) a painful torture."

the rejecteing thoughts(shateenu) of the perverse one (iblis) will deliver the TRUTH! But then my brother, it will be too late, as it was with Pharoah.

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You just answeed your own question, we don't really on MEN, we really on TRUTH that comes form the mouths of men, but must be verified by your own self. If the informatin is true, than it was a messenger that deliivered it, if it is not true, it was just a man delivering a false story.

Idol, what are you talking about?? We are not talking about verifying anything, we are talking about the infallibility of those things mentioned in ayat 2177 which Allah COMMANDS us to have faith in, that is, complete/total/infallible trust in.

Yes, have faith in those things, I do not disagree with that.

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You are trying to give people TITLES instead of descriptions, that is why you are having trouble with the CHANGE. The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood, he is no longer ESCRIBED as a messenger. YOu see, if it were a title, we would not have this flexibility, but since it is a description, we have to first verify WHAT IT IS that we are recieving. That is why your sight and hearing will be questioned.

My, my, Idol, you are getting desperate. I haven't given anyone any title...Allah, gave the title "MESSENGER", hence, obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER" , get it? What are you talking about?!

The God gave the description "messenger", not TITLE "MESSENGER", there is a big difference and I urge you to ponder it brother.

Now, I demand that you go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where a Messenger from Allah, spread a falsehood. This you MUST do or immediately retract this "insane" assertion.

Thats impossible because once a messenger speaks a falsehood, they lose the description of rasool(messenger/sender).

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No, you have changed it to "failed mission", I said that a messenger can REJECt the message, but the MISSION OF THE MESSENGERS will continue with or without the "man".

What do you mean I changed it to "failed mission", what are you talking about?! Jonah, did not REJECT THE MESSAGE, he faltered, intially, in carrying it out...a huge difference. Now, once again, go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger can REJECT Allah's Message. Even if you can find such an ayat, you still must post the ayat where that ACTUALLY happened!

Since messengers are descriptions, they lose that description the moment they spread falsehood.

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A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.

This is not our arguement and you well know that. Our argument is, can and did, a Messenger fail in his mission to deliver the Message of Allah.

Our debate is if iblis was a malaika, but I understand we have travelled around quite a bit and it might be confusing if you are not paying close attention.

We are not discussing who follows or rejects what Message they brought...stay focused.

Yes sir D

Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.

I agree.

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There is no doubt on messengers, if the man rejects, he is no longer a messenger, justlike when a malaika rejects, it is no longer a malaika. Same for submitters.

Once again, where did ANY Messenger reject carrying out his mission to deliver Allah's Message. POST THAT MESSENGER'S NAME AND THE AYATS WHICH SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.

Jonah did, you know the verses.

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I am firm and patient brother, like a tree planted by the river of water whose roots are dug deep into the earth. Please continue.

Hmmm...I debated another individual on a different forum who offered a similar metaphor. I told him that..he was more like a donkey planted planted in the road.

Shame for him.

Please take time and think on the position I am giving to you.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Yes it is a fact that we are to have faith in the things listed in 2177, I agree to that and never differed
.

Thank you, and to have faith in them, means, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them that they will not fail in their duty to Allah...ever, do we agree, Idol? YES OR NO?

The difference is that you do not see these as descriptions, but rather titles.

Listen, call them what you want, the reality remains this

Allah, has commanded us to have faith in them, meaning, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them that they will not fail in their duty to Allah...ever, do we agree, YES OR NO?

PREIST BOMEI I here your lament, however, nowhere does Allah say to have faith in humans at large, only in His Messengers.

(1411) Their messengers said to them "That we are except humans similar/equal to you.."

If a human being delivers TRUTH, you should have faith in the human because he is a HUMAN messenger.

(1794) And what prevented/forbid the people that they have faith when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Did The God send a human, messenger?"

Idol, please re-phrase, because your above comment has nothing to do with or debate nor the reality that...Allah's "hand picked" Messengers, cannot fail in their mission/duty to Him. You are still trying to duck this very critical reality/issue/truth.

Please give it thought so that perhaps you will come to an understanding, uncertainty is the same as doubt, as the faithful are not doubters. I see it clearlythat Jonah rejected his mission, that is why he ended up in the big fish in unstable environment. Once he came to his senses, he was returned to a stable environment(land) and began to spread the message.

No, Idol, you give it some thought and stop slandering Jonah, which is haram to do, and simply admit that, while he did INITIALLY falter in regard to his mission, ultimately, he did not reject his mission, but accepted and carried it out fully in accordance with Allah's command. Had Jonah rejected his mission, then, the following ayat could not be true

1098 And wherefore was there not a town which should believe so that their belief should have profited them but the people of Yunus? When they believed, We removed from them the chastisement of disgrace in this world's life and We gave them provision till a time.

PEIST BOKMEI So, while it can be said that Jonah INITIALLY faltered in his mission, ultimately, he did not fail in it, because he did deliver the message to his people. Is this true...YES or NO?

Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.

Well, about time, what took you so long...afraid that Allah might send a BIG FISH for ya unless you submitted? LOL!... D

Anyway, by finally admitting this, you can now see that as with the perfect record of the Messengers, ALL of the things mentioned in 2177 cannot possibly fail in their duty to Allah, hence, we are commanded to have faith in them, meaning, complete/total/infallible trust in them that they cannot fail in their duty to Allah or mankind.

Given that, he did deliver the message given to him, as did ALL of the other Messengers, is why Allah says to have faith in them , because not ONE ever failed to complete his mission of delivering the Message... YES or NO?

I cannot say that because the God tells us there are messengers he never told us about;

Man, will you please stop already? Don't you know that by saying that, you cast doubt on the integrity of Allah's Messenger Corps? If none failed to your knowledge, in that, they were "hand-picked" by Allah to carry His Message, then how could any of them fail simply because Allah doesn't mention them?! What is wrong you, man? Really, Idol, you've got to stop with this line of discourse.

PREIST BOMEI I know you desperately wanted to use Jonah's example to rationalize your other erroneous position that, Iblis was a malaika who rejected. The problem with attempting to use Jonah however is this. The Maliaka and Messengers, by Allah's definition are in fallible in their duty to Him, hence, we can have complete/total/infallible trust in them.

Sure, just make sure you don't stop verifying and start accepting all things blindly from them, because they can turn on you, that is why the only one worth serving is the God.

Oh, so Allah, His Maliaka, His Quran and His Messengers, have at some point, in their existence, turned on mankind unrighteously, is this your position?

PREIST BOKMEI Now, although Jonah did initially falter in his assigned task, he ultimately did accept and carry it out in full. Now, for the Maliaka to remain in the same group with those mentioned in 2177, Iblis, had he been a Malaika, despite, initially refusing to submit to Adam, would have had to, as did Jonah, accept and carry out Allah's command to him to submit. Given that, Iblis did not do this, the Maliaka then, as a group, are now tainted as doubtful, hence, complete/total/infallible trust in them cannot be given, hence, ayat 2177, given your position, is now in contradiction with itself...and how can that be possible.

Ohh, I am glad we took this path this time, and can see your dilemma from this angle. Let me alleviate your concerns. "iblis" is the description of one who chooses "shayteen" over "malaika". Look at what the "shayteen" will say in the end.

(1422) And the rejecting thoughts(alshshaytanu) said when the matter/affair/order/command was passed/judged "That The God promised you, the truth's promise, and I promised you, so I broke the promise to you, and (there) was not from a power to me on you except that I called you, so you answered to me, so do not blame me and blame your minds, I am not with aiding you, and you are not with aiding me, truly I had no faith with what you made me a partner (with God) from before. Truly the unjust/oppressive, for them (is) a painful torture."

the rejecteing thoughts(shateenu) of the perverse one (iblis) will deliver the TRUTH! But then my brother, it will be too late, as it was with Pharoah
.

I agree, however, Iblis, was not one of those mentioned in ayat 2177, otherwise, doubt would be cast on all of those mentioned in that ayat. Iblis, being a Jinn human being, does represent a mind that rejects.

PREIST BOKMEI Idol, what are you talking about?? We are not talking about verifying anything, we are talking about the infallibility of those things mentioned in ayat 2177 which Allah COMMANDS us to have faith in, that is, complete/total/infallible trust in.

Yes, have faith in those things, I do not disagree with that.

And, do you agree that, "faith", means...the complete/total/infallible trust in in those things mentioned in ayat 2177, that is, they cannot fail in their duty to Allah or mankind...ever?, YES or NO?

My, my, Idol, you are getting desperate. I haven't given anyone any title...Allah, gave the title "MESSENGER", hence, obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER" , get it? What are you talking about?!

The God gave the description "messenger", not TITLE "MESSENGER", there is a big difference and I urge you to ponder it brother.

Well, I have no problem with Messenger being both a title and a description, however, The Messengers of Allah, call it what you want,...not one...ever...failed in his mission/duty, to deliver Allah's Message. Do you agree, YES or NO?

Now, I demand that you go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where a Messenger from Allah, spread a falsehood. This you MUST do or immediately retract this "insane" assertion.

Thats impossible because once a messenger speaks a falsehood, they lose the description of rasool(messenger/sender). The moment that a messenger starts to reject his mission of spreading TRUTH and starts telling falsehood,

Produce the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger at anytime...ever...told a falsehood, and then his Messenger commission was rescinded?! If you cannot do this, then, immediately retract this fitna/slanderous implication of the Messengerhood. To even imply such a thing is haram.

What do you mean I changed it to "failed mission", what are you talking about?! Jonah, did not REJECT THE MESSAGE, he faltered, intially, in carrying it out...a huge difference. Now, once again, go to Al-Quran and post the ayat where Allah says that a Messenger can REJECT Allah's Message. Even if you can find such an ayat, you still must post the ayat where that ACTUALLY happened!

Since messengers are descriptions, they lose that description the moment they spread falsehood.

What falsehood did Jonah spread?! Post the ayat where Allah says he spread a falsehood. If you cannot do this, then have the fear of Allah and personal honor, to immediately retract this fitna/slanderous implication of his Messengership.

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A messenger can be trusted, but you have to verify the message before you claim that one is a messenger. You don't enter into blind belief by following that which you have no knowledge of.

This is not our arguement and you well know that. Our argument is, can and did, a Messenger fail in his mission to deliver the Message of Allah.

Our debate is if iblis was a malaika, but I understand we have travelled around quite a bit and it might be confusing if you are not paying close attention.

LOLx10!! The only one who is confused is YOU, bro. You are saying one un-Quranic thing after another. No, Idol, it is you who'd better start paying attention to the gravity of some of your direct and implied remarks. For example, you confuse faltering with rejection and spreading falsehood, now that IS being confused.

Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.

I agree.

Well, thank you, and if you agree, then Iblis, could not have been one of the malaika, because that would have meant and would mean, as a group, the malaika can no longer be totally/completely trusted/deemed infallible in their duty to Allah, because one of its members failed, thus, we cannot have complet/total trust or faith in them. In addition, if the maliaka failed, then all of the other mentioned things in ayat 2177, likwise, cannot be fully trusted/have faith in. All of those mentioned groups in ayat 2177 form GROUP themselves within ayat 2177, hence, if one of those groups fail, then, the entire group as a group has failed.

PREIST BOKMEI Once again, where did ANY Messenger reject carrying out his mission to deliver Allah's Message. POST THAT MESSENGER'S NAME AND THE AYATS WHICH SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.

Jonah did, you know the verses.

IDOL Yes, that is true. Initially, he failed, ultimately, he succeded.

PREIST BOKMEI Given that, a Messenger can be trusted to fulfill his mission to deliver Allah's Message, without exception, then everything else in 2177, likewise, can also be trusted without doubt to carry out their trusts/commitments/missions.

IDOL I agree.

When you agreed to my above statements in bold, you proved that Iblis could not have been a malaika, thank you, checkmate.

Your pride has no bounds, in that, despite, your own admission that Jonah carried out his mission in full, you still continue to turn around and say that he didn't...you are lost and confused at the moment.

Shame for him.

But...woe...is to you...

Please take time and think on the position I am giving to you.

Avail yourself of your own advice. Read back this and your own post and you will see how often you've contradicted yourself and made totally un-Quranic assertions. You are very confused by your own convoluted discourses...and you've only baffled yourself...ponder that, bro.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Dhul/PB,

It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says

(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace."

Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

It has come time (once again) for me to adhere to the God when He says

(2563) And the merciful's servants (are) those who walk on the land quietly/tranquilly , and if the ignorant conversed with them , they said "peace." Peace brother, you have kept me out of my PEACE for too long. To you your way and to me mine. You "win".

Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?

Some findings from this debate

Iblis, was not of the malaika, for had he been, ayat 2177 would be a huge contradiction.
The Quranic logic regarding this question

A) the malaika were told to bow down and did, Iblis did not.

B) the malaika do not disobey/rebel against Allah, but carry out His commands.

C) Iblis, cannot be one of the malaika, because he disobeyed/rebelled, he was of the JINN.

A, B, and C are ALL found clearly/decisively/definitively written in Al-Qur'an.

Any other syllogisms are extrapolative/conjectural/indefinite/allusory.

Jonah, regardless of his faltering, did complete his mission.
Faith and belief, essentially, mean the same thing, that is, to have complete/total/infallible trust in some thing.
The malaika and dabbatin cannot make moral choices, hence, they cannot have pride nor can they disobey Allah.
The nature/composition of the Malaika, remains an unknown.
That the root M-L-K, was/is misunderstood/misapplied in this case.
Iblis, one of the Jinn, it appears, is a human being. More on this later, insha-Allah.

I really enjoyed this debate/discussion and thank all who participated in it with special thanks to Idol. If anyone finds any new evidence contrary to my position, please bring it up.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

Well, I guess this is as good a capitulation of your position as any that could have been made and I accept. Allow me however to correct you one more point. I did not keep you out of your "peace". I nor anyone else for that matter forced or coerced you into this dialogue, you did it of your own volition, hence, any peace that you may have lost is a result of your own choice, accept this, it is called--taking personal responsibility....or how did you put it...being one of the controlled thoughts?

Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.

Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Absolutely correct, I kept myself out of PEACE, so I intend to correct that now and allow those with eyes to see for themselves how the truth defeats falsehood. The arguments have been presented, let him who accepts accept, and him who rejects reject.

Fair enough.

Your findings will lead you to the place where you belong.

Hmmm..and where might that be, Idol?

Anyway, you do realize that that goes both ways...right? wink

Looking forward to your input on WHY IBLIS IS A HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN, and on 1015.

unknownuser

Peace all,

After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?

unknownuser

PEACE DANISH

After giving much thought on believing in GOD (THE UNSEEN CREATOR OF CREATIONS), HIS Angels, HIS Scriptures, HIS Messengers and the Heavens and the Earth, I wonder who and what these "angels" are, when we have never seen, heard nor known anything about them?

Do you have any ideas? It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation. Make any sense to you?

unknownuser

Peace Priest_Bokmei,

Do you have any ideas?

Controlled (angelic/adamic) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic) thoughts as per Kyle.

It's been said that they are the forces seen and unseen inherent in the creation.

Humans (seen); Thoughts (unseen).
Wind (?seen?); its power and destructive nature as to what it can do or not do (unseen).
A bee (seen); its force, strength and intend to sting (unseen).
Clouds/rain (seen); its intent to destruct or bloom (unseen).
Old age (seen); its intent to die (unseen).
Scripture ? guidance (seen); what it can bring or do, as a ?force? (unseen).
Messenger/message (?seen?); its intent (unseen).

We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).

With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.

Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".

Make any sense to you?

Keep it going friend, there?s a lot to comprehend.

GOD Bless.

Tay

Excellent post Danish!

Here's an ayah to ponder

4130 Those who say Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.

Now I wonder how many people who believe in Allah and live righteously have seen or heard these angels, or is it that these angels are the "feelings" of harmony, peace, connectedness, and bliss, feelings that await the righteous in the Hereafter.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

PEACE DANISH

We know that humans are of only two kinds; males and females (seen), both of which possess controlled (angelic/adamic/humble/calm) and uncontrolled (jinnic/satanic/evil/fiery) thoughts (unseen).

Hmmm...perhaps, but I see only one kind of human--homo sapien sapiens which is comprised of males and females and jinn and men.

With no offence, I believe Kyle has a valid point as to the angels being controlled thoughts and jinns being uncontrolled thoughts, which I am still grasping. Besides, I have yet to witness or even hear about winged angels flying around, just like most think that jinns (some creatures) are made up of fire, yet to be seen or heard of.

No offense taken, Danish, we are here to find the truth. If you can elucidate on Idol's theory and make it clearer for me all the better. The controlled versus uncontrolled thought position is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Although I absolutely reject the notion of winged beings with white robes, halos and harps, I am inclined to believe the angels are the forces of this creation i.e. x-rays, sound waves, electricity, hurricanes as well as the forces/angels which bring them into existence . I cannot, yet anyway, concretely categorize "thought" as angels, however, I cann see thoughts allegorically as "angelic thinking/behavior".

Most of the time, when I am all by myself more so, sitting or lying down alone, several thoughts/forces, both good (controlled/humble) and bad (uncontrolled/evil), simply swoosh through my mind. With such thoughts and being all alone, I believe I am not in a company of "jinn and angel creatures".

Your example reminds me of the old cartoon with a person who has to make a moral decision and has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other each trying to influence him . What makes me reluctant to view the angels as thoughts are ayats 4136 and 1649-50 which suggest that the angels are a category of creation just as humans and the animals are categories of creation.

I think the root word M-L-K needs to be re-examined. I think that maliaka and malik, are different terms although they share the same root, if in fact that is the case.

Looking forward to your reply and analysis.

unknownuser

Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.

"O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.

Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)

According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.

Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !

Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !

Or isn?t the logic there ?

Gods Blessings.