WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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Peace be upon you PB,
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Brother, what I am trying to tell you takes time to reflect on, which means you have to be patientThe issue isn't one of patience, but rather the lack of a clear and coherent explanation of your claims.
I will try to be more clear as my knowledge increases, unless the God wills otherwise.
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Have you ever sat and tried to silence your thoughts? Do you see how difficult it is? Have you ever gone back and forth in your mind over a particular thing, such as wether to get some food that was unhealthy but Oh so tasty? For there to be a struggle there has to be two entities.This struggle isn't between two sentient entities but two ideas. You sound as if we are inhabited by two different beings who war with each to determine an individuals destiny.
My current understanding is that these "ideas" are energies, one comes from the lowest part of the human, the animal faculty from which emotions come. The other part in this struggle is the will. It is CLEAR that there are two forces, that is what I am saying. We can only identify the "I" with one of those areas, and most people identify the "I" as the animal part.
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YES, the animating force (Energy in motion/e-motion) came before the human body. The atoms that form the human body are ANIMATED into action so they can come together to from the human body.These animated atoms, however, are not called the Jinn.
I did not say they were, it is the actual FORCE that I am talking about. When you realize that he word "jinn" means "overed", you will realize that this force is covered from sight and can be described in that manner.
Btw, emotion doesn't exist independent of thought, but is a product of it. Likewise, thought, doesn't exist independent of the brain/matter.
Thoughts are powered by e-MOTIONS (animation), and the physical body produces electrical impulses which the brain functions by. I have said nothing different, I am very aware of the ONENESS of things, we only seperate so we can understand the parts as they are used in the WHOLE.
You still have not show that the Jinn are anything other than homo sapien sapiens.
I have shown very cleary, what has not been shown is the "omo sapien sapiens" who "descend" upon those who say and maintain that the God is ONE.
(4130) That truly those who say "Our Lord (is) God." Then they become straight/direct, the controllers(almala-ikatu) descend on them (and say) "That you do not fear and nor be saddened/grieved, and be announced good news to with (about) the Paradise which you are being promised."
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PEACE IDOL
No, I didn't forget to respond to your last post but I had to think some more about my position. I've been continuing my study of this subject and have concluded that, based on 726, Jinn and men are indeed homo sapien sapiens.
726 'True, there were men among mankind who took shelter with men among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqa
According to The Dictionary of the Quran by Omar, rajala/RJL means male human beings/men.
Sura 72, isn't speaking of competing thoughts within an indvidual but rather two classes of homo sapien sapiens.
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace,
In 726 Rijal could reffers to the male from Ins and Jin. If the dictionaries restrict this word to human, the God uses it for both Ins and Jinn in the same way for the word shayateen (6112).
Another example which is a bit similar, the word bashar/human being is also used for the angel who was sent to Mary. In the light of 1917, the appearance of this angel messenger doesn't make him a human being, he remains an angel despite his appearance.
1917 (Since she was not used to mixing with people), she had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent to her Our angel who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being (although he had no physical or material existence).
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PEACE MARIE, IDOL and ALL
Will respond soon, insha-Allah.
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SALAAMUN MARIE AND ALL
Peace,
In 726 Rijal could reffers to the male from Ins and Jin. If the dictionaries restrict this word to human, the God uses it for both Ins and Jinn in the same way for the word shayateen (6112).
Another example which is a bit similar, the word bashar/human being is also used for the angel who was sent to Mary. In the light of 1917, the appearance of this angel messenger doesn't make him a human being, he remains an angel despite his appearance.
1917 (Since she was not used to mixing with people), she had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent to her Our angel who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being (although he had no physical or material existence).
If Ins and Jinn are two distinct physiological beings, then rijalun would only mean "male", however, if Ins and Jinns, physiologically, are the same, then rijalun holds up as "male human being". I think we can agree on this. As I posted earlier, Omars Dictionary of the Quran, doesn't use "male" at all, but "male human being; Man". Now you must decide if the Jinn are
A. invisible by nature as beings and all of the time or...
B. visible beings by nature who are inaccessible to view at times.
Remember, although Allah says that an angel took on the countenance of a bashuran, nowhere, my to knowledge, does Allah say that a Jinn took on the countenance of an ins/bashuran.
Now, if Ins and Jinn are males and invisible by nature and a physiologically distinct created species, and if the following ayats are translated correctly , then how is the following possible?
1764 And beguile whomsoever of them you can with your voice, and collect against them your forces riding and on foot, and share with them in wealth and children, and hold out promises to them; and the Shaitan makes not promises to them but to deceive
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And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Now, have you seen or heard of any physiologically distinct male species, not to mention invisible sharing wealth and children with human beings? How can Jinn and men share in wealth and children if the Jinn are invisible, and physiologically different? If the Jinn were invisible, how then were they able to build the things described in ayat 3413?
Also consider the following
5156 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
How do Jinn and men serve Allah? They must submit/surrender to Gudiance--Al-Quran. There is no other Guidance that I'm aware of. Quran records...1015 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
The above ayat states that, messengers/rasul, came to both Jinn and men. Now, according to the following ayats, the messengers, were only human beings
4152 To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
We are told in the above ayat to make no distinction between any of the messengers. Well, if Jinn and men, physiologically speaking, are distinct from each other, and the Jinn had their own messengers, then that certainly would be a HUGE distinction between His messengers!
Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong)...
12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?
1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things).
Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them. My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.
Basically, then, it appears as if the argument distills down to the following two ayats. I conclude that, ayat 2275 defines who the messengers were--homo sapien sapiens.
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salamun ?laykoum PRIEST_BOKMEI,
Nice to see you again on the forum. )
Very good analysis of the verses. The contradiction that you see comes from the translation, I think.
In 6131, the word used is "al-ins" which is the singular form of "an-nass" present in 2273, with the help of the verse 1146, we can see this clearly.
Please note that "ins" is different from "insaane", and "jin" is different from "jaan" (as in 1527). My view is that "ins" and "jin" are two psychological aspects of the humans "bashar", some humans are more enclined to the aspect "ins" thus called "insaane", the others are more enclined to the "jin" aspect and thus called "jaan".
It's hard to distinguish between those words when reading a translation because translators generally translate "ins" "annas" and "insaane" andn "bashar" as the same, which is confusing and sometimes leads to contradictions.
So you arguments are mostly correct as far as I can see.
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Salaam Someone,
'Ins' is a collective noun, the same as 'Jinn'.
The singular of 'Jinn' is 3ifreet and also Jann. Remember in the Ayah 3ifreetun mina Al Jinn....
The singular of Ins (Humans) is Insaan (Human). Similar to the way of the word Nisaa'a (Women) and Imraa'a (Woman).Taj
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Peace PB, all,
According my understanding,Humans/mankind is the progeny of Adam and Jinn is the progeny of Iblees who is a rebellious ?angel? (711)
238 concerns both Adam, his mate and Iblees
- We said ?Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.?
The God sends His guidance through His messengers amongst the progeny of Iblees (Jinn) and the progeny of Adam (humans) (6130).
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
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PEACE MARIE AND ALL
Peace PB, all,
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
In order to prove your statement, could you provide an ayat where an angel was sent to the Jinns? If an angel went to a Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly, the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah, would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to Jinn and not just angel as a bearer of revelation. If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they share wealth and children with men, and helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices? An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun. You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE SOMEONE
Thanks and ooking forward to your helping demystify the Jinn.
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Peace PB,
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
In order to prove your statement, could you provide an ayat where an angel was sent to the Jinns? If an angel went to a Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a Jinn to give to other Jinns
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
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Indirectly because the prophet Mohammad received this Reading through Gabriel (297-98 )
If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they share wealth and children with men,
Indirectly
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they submitted except for Iblees, he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?
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He said ?Shall I show You this one whom You have preferred over me, that if You respite me until the Day of Resurrection, I will seize his progeny, except for a few.?
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He said ?Go, and whoever follows you from them. Hell shall be the reward to you all, a reward well deserved.?
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?And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and infantry against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them.? But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? They all submitted except for Iblees, he refused.
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So We said ?O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship.?
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So, alshshaytanu tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said ?Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be a stability for you and luxury for a while.?
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But alshshaytanu whispered to them, to reveal their wickedness to them which was kept from them; and he said ?Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal.?
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O Children of Adam, do not let alshshaytanu divert you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removed from them their protective layer to show them their wickedness. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made alshshayateena as allies for those who do not believe.
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Alshshaytanu promises you poverty and orders you to evil, while God promises forgiveness from Him and favour. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
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He promises them and makes them desire, but what alshshaytanu promises them is only vanity.
and helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices?
Only the God knows How they helped Solomon.
I can ask the same question for the hoopoe...
Peace
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Peace all,
"ins" comes from the root/verb "anessa" which translates as "be friendly , be sociable".
"jinn" comes from the root/verb "janna" which translates as "envelop , enshroud , cover , curtain , cloak , conceal , blind , cache , screen , hide".
A hint to relate this to the reality, is to make the connection that people can be described as either "introvert" or "extrovert", it is not to belittle any of the 2 categories, both have good and bad qualities.
Just think that "most of the generosity and naivity" come from the "extroverts", and "most of the creativity and scheming" come from the "introverts".
Also, before the existance of language, all the people "bashar" were "introverts" or "jinn" due to non-existing forms of communication.
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PEACE SOMEONE
Let me join the others in praising Allah for your baby and happiness! and...may they be many more to follow D.
"ins" comes from the root/verb "anessa" which translates as "be friendly , be sociable". "jinn" comes from the root/verb "janna" which translates as "envelop , enshroud , cover , curtain , cloak , conceal , blind , cache , screen , hide".
Yes, I have read the same thing about "ins" and "jinn", however, some of the other definitions for Janna are, to be mad with joy or anger; madness, diabolical fury, and passion. The term "nar/fire" , similar to the above definitions, can mean irritate, vex, provoke, war. These definitions, like the definitions of "ins", suggest a social psychology/mindset of homo sapien sapiens.
I'm not convinced of the introvert vs extrovert theory at this time.
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PEACE MARIE
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
This position cannot be supported by Quran. Quran, at 1850, defines Iblis one if the Jinn and not of the malaika
1850 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
1850 Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa liththalimeena badala
To refer to Iblis as being other than a Jinn, is to not take Allah's statement/ayat seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
***Indirectly because the prophet Mohammad received this Reading through Gabriel (297-98 ) ***
Your position does not hold water, because Allah makes it clear that He chooses only rajalun and malaika as messengers and, that to Jinn and men, came messengers. To proffer that an angel lead the Jinns would not be consistent with Allah stating that, had angels inhabited the earth, He would have sent an angel as a Messenger. Indeed, the Jinn could say to Allah that, "how can we follow an angel when we are Jinn, how can we be held to the standard of an angel, we are Jinn?". No, if an angel went to the Jinns, it would have been to bring Allah's Message to a particular, who, then, would deliver it to his people. In addition, we know of no angel leading men, although, angels have been used to carry the wahy.
I'm sorry, Marie, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey with the ayats you presented. Perhaps you could explain how you were using them relative to our discussion.
Only the God knows How they helped Solomon.
And He has told us in His Quran, how the Jinn were able Solomon.
2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to you but We reveal to you the truth and the best explanation (thereof).
The above ayat tells us that Allah, has answered our question as to who the Jinn are...homo sapien sapiens. The following is what history says about Solomon and his builders, and is consistent with all of the accounts about how he came to build his many edifices
"King Hiram was friendly to Solomon and sent him workers to help build the temple, and cedar wood. How would they carry the great logs so far from Mount Lebanon to Jerusalem? Hiram's servants took them down to the sea and made them into rafts and floated them down to Joppa. You must take your map and follow along the coast and see how they went. At Joppa they drew the logs ashore and Solomon's servants carried them up to Jerusalem.
There were a great many people at work. Besides Hiram's servants, there were many more whom Solomon gathered from the different tribes and from the native people of the land. So the timber was brought for the building. The stone was got in quarries near by, and it was cut to the right size and shape in the quarry, so that there was no tool of iron heard upon the stone while the temple was building."
http//64.233.187.104/search?q=cacheyThUlZIvSDkJwww.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/sower/jj12/1king51.htm+who+helped+Solomon+build+the+Temple&hl=en
I've found no historical account remotely suggesting that, "fiery invisible beings" helping to build his projects. It defies human intelligence to think that, fiery beings, could dive in the water for pearls and coral. Think of it, wouldn't history have recorded it if "invisible beings" were moving things around? Just imagine huge rocks floating by and nothing moving them? What an event!
I can ask the same question for the hoopoe...
I hope to address this later.
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Or maybe Jinn just means two different things.
From Ahmed Ali's translation of the Quran.
Jinn means to hide, used both for invisble forces and beings , as in 26210 and 37158, and nomadic tribes as in 6130. Ins is also used for settled tribes, as in 260.
Words having more than one meaning, like naml, hud-hud, and tair have been used metonymically to stand for something quite different from what they generally mean... Naml, for instance, means ants, but was also the name of a tribe in Syria, and Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir identifies namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Ban Shisan. Similarly, hud hud means hoopoe, but was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tibes as well as birds. Tair is commonly used for birds, but is also applied to winged beings, yet tayyar means fleet-footed horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching impetuously to jihad. When King Solomon says that they had been taught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for human speech, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds being called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn, cannot be disregarded, and is further discusseed in the note on p.386, the Surah Sad, like Sheba, Surah 34, being largely parabolical in style and narration. Knowledge of language of tair implies that Tair were a conquered tribe or race and David and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Similarly jinns implies nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by king of Tyre for Solomon( Bible, Kings 1,5). If take as 'knowledge of language of birds,' it would belong to the realm of 'Faerie.' But the Quran is speaking metonymically, using the name of one thing for another related to it. The role of Hud-hud in this Surah (27) is significant, and could not have been performed by a bird. In fact, it is known that the name of a prince of Midian in the days of King Solomon himself was Hud-hud; and according to Arab traditions the name of the Queen's brother or father was also Hud-hud (See Ard al-Qur'an by Saiyyad Sulaiman Nadvi, Dar al-Musannifin, Azamgarh). It was by the hand of Hud-hud that the letter demanding the Queen's surrender was sent by Solomon; and it was Hud-hud who brought her throne, he alone having possessed knowledge of the letter, which verse 40 of this Surah mentions. At the time, the metaphorical meaning of 'throne'(power, kingship) should be noted, as also the fact of teh Queen's utter confusion on entering the court whose floor seemed a sheet of water to her eyes bewildered by the greatness of Solomon and the splendour of his court.
If Jinn are Humans, then what would you make of the verse that says Jinns are repelled by shooting balls of fire when they try to listen to the Angels? Sorry I don't know the verse number for this so I just paraphrased it.
If Jinn are Men, then how could Iblis have existed before Adam who was the first man?
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IMHO, the jinn are the leaders/notables among humans.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !"ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.
Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".
Peace