WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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Salaam Someone,
'Ins' is a collective noun, the same as 'Jinn'.
The singular of 'Jinn' is 3ifreet and also Jann. Remember in the Ayah 3ifreetun mina Al Jinn....
The singular of Ins (Humans) is Insaan (Human). Similar to the way of the word Nisaa'a (Women) and Imraa'a (Woman).Taj
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Peace PB, all,
According my understanding,Humans/mankind is the progeny of Adam and Jinn is the progeny of Iblees who is a rebellious ?angel? (711)
238 concerns both Adam, his mate and Iblees
- We said ?Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.?
The God sends His guidance through His messengers amongst the progeny of Iblees (Jinn) and the progeny of Adam (humans) (6130).
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
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PEACE MARIE AND ALL
Peace PB, all,
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
In order to prove your statement, could you provide an ayat where an angel was sent to the Jinns? If an angel went to a Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly, the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah, would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to Jinn and not just angel as a bearer of revelation. If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they share wealth and children with men, and helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices? An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun. You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE SOMEONE
Thanks and ooking forward to your helping demystify the Jinn.
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Peace PB,
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
Messengers from among the angels are both for Jinn (progeny of Iblee, the rebellious angel) and human.
In order to prove your statement, could you provide an ayat where an angel was sent to the Jinns? If an angel went to a Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a Jinn to give to other Jinns
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
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Indirectly because the prophet Mohammad received this Reading through Gabriel (297-98 )
If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they share wealth and children with men,
Indirectly
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they submitted except for Iblees, he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?
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He said ?Shall I show You this one whom You have preferred over me, that if You respite me until the Day of Resurrection, I will seize his progeny, except for a few.?
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He said ?Go, and whoever follows you from them. Hell shall be the reward to you all, a reward well deserved.?
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?And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and infantry against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them.? But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? They all submitted except for Iblees, he refused.
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So We said ?O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship.?
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So, alshshaytanu tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said ?Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be a stability for you and luxury for a while.?
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But alshshaytanu whispered to them, to reveal their wickedness to them which was kept from them; and he said ?Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal.?
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O Children of Adam, do not let alshshaytanu divert you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removed from them their protective layer to show them their wickedness. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made alshshayateena as allies for those who do not believe.
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Alshshaytanu promises you poverty and orders you to evil, while God promises forgiveness from Him and favour. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
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He promises them and makes them desire, but what alshshaytanu promises them is only vanity.
and helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices?
Only the God knows How they helped Solomon.
I can ask the same question for the hoopoe...
Peace
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Peace all,
"ins" comes from the root/verb "anessa" which translates as "be friendly , be sociable".
"jinn" comes from the root/verb "janna" which translates as "envelop , enshroud , cover , curtain , cloak , conceal , blind , cache , screen , hide".
A hint to relate this to the reality, is to make the connection that people can be described as either "introvert" or "extrovert", it is not to belittle any of the 2 categories, both have good and bad qualities.
Just think that "most of the generosity and naivity" come from the "extroverts", and "most of the creativity and scheming" come from the "introverts".
Also, before the existance of language, all the people "bashar" were "introverts" or "jinn" due to non-existing forms of communication.
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PEACE SOMEONE
Let me join the others in praising Allah for your baby and happiness! and...may they be many more to follow D.
"ins" comes from the root/verb "anessa" which translates as "be friendly , be sociable". "jinn" comes from the root/verb "janna" which translates as "envelop , enshroud , cover , curtain , cloak , conceal , blind , cache , screen , hide".
Yes, I have read the same thing about "ins" and "jinn", however, some of the other definitions for Janna are, to be mad with joy or anger; madness, diabolical fury, and passion. The term "nar/fire" , similar to the above definitions, can mean irritate, vex, provoke, war. These definitions, like the definitions of "ins", suggest a social psychology/mindset of homo sapien sapiens.
I'm not convinced of the introvert vs extrovert theory at this time.
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PEACE MARIE
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
This position cannot be supported by Quran. Quran, at 1850, defines Iblis one if the Jinn and not of the malaika
1850 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
1850 Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa liththalimeena badala
To refer to Iblis as being other than a Jinn, is to not take Allah's statement/ayat seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
***Indirectly because the prophet Mohammad received this Reading through Gabriel (297-98 ) ***
Your position does not hold water, because Allah makes it clear that He chooses only rajalun and malaika as messengers and, that to Jinn and men, came messengers. To proffer that an angel lead the Jinns would not be consistent with Allah stating that, had angels inhabited the earth, He would have sent an angel as a Messenger. Indeed, the Jinn could say to Allah that, "how can we follow an angel when we are Jinn, how can we be held to the standard of an angel, we are Jinn?". No, if an angel went to the Jinns, it would have been to bring Allah's Message to a particular, who, then, would deliver it to his people. In addition, we know of no angel leading men, although, angels have been used to carry the wahy.
I'm sorry, Marie, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey with the ayats you presented. Perhaps you could explain how you were using them relative to our discussion.
Only the God knows How they helped Solomon.
And He has told us in His Quran, how the Jinn were able Solomon.
2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to you but We reveal to you the truth and the best explanation (thereof).
The above ayat tells us that Allah, has answered our question as to who the Jinn are...homo sapien sapiens. The following is what history says about Solomon and his builders, and is consistent with all of the accounts about how he came to build his many edifices
"King Hiram was friendly to Solomon and sent him workers to help build the temple, and cedar wood. How would they carry the great logs so far from Mount Lebanon to Jerusalem? Hiram's servants took them down to the sea and made them into rafts and floated them down to Joppa. You must take your map and follow along the coast and see how they went. At Joppa they drew the logs ashore and Solomon's servants carried them up to Jerusalem.
There were a great many people at work. Besides Hiram's servants, there were many more whom Solomon gathered from the different tribes and from the native people of the land. So the timber was brought for the building. The stone was got in quarries near by, and it was cut to the right size and shape in the quarry, so that there was no tool of iron heard upon the stone while the temple was building."
http//64.233.187.104/search?q=cacheyThUlZIvSDkJwww.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/sower/jj12/1king51.htm+who+helped+Solomon+build+the+Temple&hl=en
I've found no historical account remotely suggesting that, "fiery invisible beings" helping to build his projects. It defies human intelligence to think that, fiery beings, could dive in the water for pearls and coral. Think of it, wouldn't history have recorded it if "invisible beings" were moving things around? Just imagine huge rocks floating by and nothing moving them? What an event!
I can ask the same question for the hoopoe...
I hope to address this later.
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Or maybe Jinn just means two different things.
From Ahmed Ali's translation of the Quran.
Jinn means to hide, used both for invisble forces and beings , as in 26210 and 37158, and nomadic tribes as in 6130. Ins is also used for settled tribes, as in 260.
Words having more than one meaning, like naml, hud-hud, and tair have been used metonymically to stand for something quite different from what they generally mean... Naml, for instance, means ants, but was also the name of a tribe in Syria, and Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir identifies namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Ban Shisan. Similarly, hud hud means hoopoe, but was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tibes as well as birds. Tair is commonly used for birds, but is also applied to winged beings, yet tayyar means fleet-footed horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching impetuously to jihad. When King Solomon says that they had been taught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for human speech, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds being called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn, cannot be disregarded, and is further discusseed in the note on p.386, the Surah Sad, like Sheba, Surah 34, being largely parabolical in style and narration. Knowledge of language of tair implies that Tair were a conquered tribe or race and David and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Similarly jinns implies nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by king of Tyre for Solomon( Bible, Kings 1,5). If take as 'knowledge of language of birds,' it would belong to the realm of 'Faerie.' But the Quran is speaking metonymically, using the name of one thing for another related to it. The role of Hud-hud in this Surah (27) is significant, and could not have been performed by a bird. In fact, it is known that the name of a prince of Midian in the days of King Solomon himself was Hud-hud; and according to Arab traditions the name of the Queen's brother or father was also Hud-hud (See Ard al-Qur'an by Saiyyad Sulaiman Nadvi, Dar al-Musannifin, Azamgarh). It was by the hand of Hud-hud that the letter demanding the Queen's surrender was sent by Solomon; and it was Hud-hud who brought her throne, he alone having possessed knowledge of the letter, which verse 40 of this Surah mentions. At the time, the metaphorical meaning of 'throne'(power, kingship) should be noted, as also the fact of teh Queen's utter confusion on entering the court whose floor seemed a sheet of water to her eyes bewildered by the greatness of Solomon and the splendour of his court.
If Jinn are Humans, then what would you make of the verse that says Jinns are repelled by shooting balls of fire when they try to listen to the Angels? Sorry I don't know the verse number for this so I just paraphrased it.
If Jinn are Men, then how could Iblis have existed before Adam who was the first man?
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IMHO, the jinn are the leaders/notables among humans.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !"ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.
Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".
Peace
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
PEACE MARIE
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
This position cannot be supported by Quran. Quran, at 1850, defines Iblis one of the Jinn and not of the malaika
1850 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
1850 Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa liththalimeena badala
To refer to Iblis as being other than a Jinn, is to not take Allah's statement/ayat seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
I respect you view but I don't share it because you don't consider all the verses about Iblees
- And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay.?
- ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.?
- Thus, all of the Angels submitted.
- Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who submitted.
From the verses above, we can deduce two informations, Iblis exists before Adam and all the Angels submitted except Iblees.
For the moment I keep my position about Iblees which as an angel from Jinn who refused to be with those who submitted.
I cannot continue this discussion.
Thanks for your debate.
Peace
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Dear Marie ,
Peace,
Why not Ibis (originally from Jin) was pretending to be an angle?
You Lord and through our creation willed to reveal his true self among all angels ! "2118 "See the rest of the story in here ?
http//19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=15163&rid=0&S=8fcb06def1fb554d47ba2f0b2c544458#msg_15163
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Peace be upon you all.
"And they ALL prostrated EXCEPT iblis"
It all comes back down to this simple knowledge of a sentence, the subject is "malaika"(controlling forces/faculties within the universe, man included)
The God's command was to the malaika, not anyone/anything else.
To refer to Iblis as being other than a "hidden(jinn) controlling force(malaika)", is to not take The God's statement seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
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Salaams,
This is what i think!
From another site
Aristotle took the ability to reason as the characteristic that distinguishes humans from other animals. Modern philosophers, including Descartes, Locke, Leibniz, also regarded the human capacity to reason as qualitatively different from the capacities of nonhuman animals. Descartes thought that animals' inability to reason is demonstrated by their inability to use LANGUAGE and he took this to show that animals are not sentient. However Locke and Leibniz, although they both maintained that animals are incapable of reason, both thought that animal perception is accompanied by some degree of consciousness. Hume thought that much human behavior required a degree of reasoning that could be matched by animals and he seemed to regard the sentience of animals as plainly evident.
1528 using lanes.
Behold! Thy Lord said to the Malaikaat "I am about to create a man, (from) who will speak, of a protective mode of life (law abider);233
He said "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"Basically we where (All) I think Malaikaat before this so obeyed Allah via our Sub-Conscious totally, But on Getting the Conscious we became law abiders ?with our concsious,so the fighters/jinn in this case Ibliss didn?t want to submit to Adam and Law as he found it easier to get what he wants other ways.
Allah's Blessings on us.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
I am not sure I understood the entire post, but I do agree with the relationship of the malaikat to the sub conscious. And I also agree that human being comes from sub conscious to conscious and will return again to subconscious.
Subconscious is just another word for "SPIRIT/SOUL"
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PEACE, Idol, Marie, /JM/, Noor, MZ357 and All
It remains a true mystery to me that, some here will continue to define Iblis as malaika when Allah clearly defines him of those created of a scorching wind--1527 and 1850. To define Iblis as malaika, is to undermine the credibility of Allah's Words. Allah, says that,--if we were to take all of the oceans, double them and turn them into ink and take all of the forests, double them and turn them into pens, we could not exhaust His Words. With this in mind then, why is it so difficult to to accept that Allah knows exactly what He is talking about when He chose the word Jinn to define Iblis? Did Allah err and you, who maintain that Iblis was a malaika, have corrected Him? Nowhere does Allah explicitly/definitively, refer to Iblis as malaika, however, He does explicitly/definitively, refer to him as one of the Jinns. In effect, to define Iblis contrary to how Allah has defined him, is to change Allah's Words.
Anyway, I discussed the following on a previous post and no one has yet put forth a credible response
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from menfor Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
Now, if an angel went to the Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a particular Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to the Jinns and not just angel as a bearer of revelation.
If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they have helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices? An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun . You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.
I want to now pursue the ayats mentioning Solomon and the Jinn
2717 Soloman's troops, made up of jinn and men and birds, were assembled for him, paraded in tight ranks.
The key words, for me at least are
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troops/junooduhu= body of soldiers/troops, collected body of men prepared for war.
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Jinn=people of different far flung countries living detached from other civilized peopled; beings who remain aloof from other people, hence, making them inaccessible to view i.e. powerful people.
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birds/ttayri= cavalry, swift animals, company of men.
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ranks/yoozaAAoona= they were arranged in separate well-disciplined columns.
The ayat begins with defining what Solomon's hosts were--junooduhu, hence, what follows cannot be an aggregate of invisible fiery beings/jinn, human beings, and feathered creatures/birds. This makes no sense at all nor does history support any such fantastic notions.
The idea of "birds" symbolizing men is not new. Alexander Hislop, in his book, The Two Babylons writes
When we look at such figures as those which are here presented to the reader, with their great extent of expanded wing, as symbolising an Assyrian king, what a vividness and force does it give to the inspired language of the prophet! And how clear is it, also, that the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS, that was to "fill the breadth of Immanuel's land," has that very symbolic meaning to which I have referred--viz., the overspreading of the land by his "mighty ones," or hosts of armed men, that the king of Babylon was to bring with him in his overflowing invasion! ...Now, the understanding of this equivocal sense of "Baal-aberin" can alone explain the remarkable statement of Aristophanes, that at the beginning of the world "the birds" were first created, and then after their creation, came the "race of the blessed immortal gods." This has been regarded as either an atheistical or nonsensical utterance on the part of the poet, but, with the true key applied to the language, it is found to contain an important historical fact. Let it only be borne in mind that "the birds"--that is, the "winged ones"--symbolised "the Lords of the mighty ones," and then the meaning is clear, viz., that men first "began to be mighty on the earth"; and then, that the "Lords" or Leaders of "these mighty ones" were deified.
There leaves no doubt that, "birds", can only be referring to Solomon's cavalry of swift moving men, either on foot or horse or both.
Turning to the bible, 1Kings 513-17
Main Entry LEVY the enlistment or conscription of men for military service.
13] And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men.
And he sent them to Lebanon ten thousand a month by courses a month they were in Lebanon, and two months at home and Adoniram was over the levy.
And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;
Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.
And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.
2Chrons. 217-18
Main Entry ALIEN a person of another family, race, or nation
17 Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600.
18 He assigned 70,000 of them to be carriers and 80,000 to be stonecutters in the hills, with 3,600 foremen over them to keep the people working.
The strangers/aliens mentioned in verse 17, describes exactly one of the main definitions of Jinn--people from other lands.
Allah, in Al-Quran states
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And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Once again turning to the bible the following verses support the above ayats
1Kings 513 King Solomon conscripted laborers from all Israel-thirty thousand men. 14 He sent them off to Lebanon in shifts of ten thousand a month, so that they spent one month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the forced labor. 15 Solomon had seventy thousand carriers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hills, 16 as well as thirty-three hundred foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen. 17 At the king's command they removed from the quarry large blocks of quality stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.
1Kings 7 13_15
13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,
14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.
15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17
2Chron. 46 He then made ten basins for washing and placed five on the south side and five on the north. In them the things to be used for the burnt offerings were rinsed, but the Sea was to be used by the priests for washing.
In conclusion, if the Jinn were other than homo sapien sapiens, then why is there no description of these...other than human creatures of fire or invisible fire, to be found in the bible concerning the building of Solomon's temple? Why is there no mention of these...other than human creatures mentioned anywhere in the historical records? On the contrary, the bible accounts are very close to the Quranic accounts concerning Solomon's building projects and no one worked on those projects other than...homo sapien sapiens...Jinn included.
Main Entry GENTILE Pronunciation 'jen-"tIl Etymology Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-,GENS-nation a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew HEATHEN, PAGAN
When I look at the word gentile-GENS , I cannot help but notice how close it resembles JINNS-GENS. Just a coincidence?...I don't think so. What better defines/describes the gentile world/peoples, than...fire free of smoke?
Looking forward to any critical analysis which would contradict these findings.
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