Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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I have already told you in my last post, as mentioned by Arrazi and i have already explained what it actually meant.
No not clear; again please clarify exactly the word in question -- what does it mean, insert translation below "al-ajamna"?
It seems you do not understand my question.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as claimed, why is there, the word " " mention in the Quran? Considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Again translate the word in question and what other non-Arabic languages where spoken from 600 - 699 CE i.e. 7th century?
16103 and indeed we know that they saying only teaches him human tongue the one who distorting to him ajamiyyun (insert meaning?) and this tongue arabiyyun clear
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (insert meaning?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of ajamiyyan (insert meaning?) would say they of of why not explained verses its 'jamiyyun (insert meaning?) waarabiyyun say it to the ones believes they of guidance and healing and the ones not believing in ears theirs deafness and it over them blindness surely those being called from place distant
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No not clear; again please clarify exactly the word in question -- what does it mean, insert translation below "al-ajamna"?
Again translate the word in question and what other non-Arabic languages where spoken from 600 - 699 CE i.e. 7th century?
16103 and indeed we know that they saying only teaches him human tongue the one who distorting to him ajamiyyun (insert meaning?) and this tongue arabiyyun clear
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (insert meaning?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of ajamiyyan (insert meaning?) would say they of of why not explained verses its 'jamiyyun (insert meaning?) waarabiyyun say it to the ones believes they of guidance and healing and the ones not believing in ears theirs deafness and it over them blindness surely those being called from place distant
Quran 1636?..SO TRAVEL IN THE EARTH AND SEE HOW WAS THE END OF THE DENIERS.
So travel the earth and carry out research, investigation and find out what is the truth and what is false.
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?. The ?huzvresh? were words that were so called "Nabatean Aramaic" in origin and were written in the Middle Persian, Soghdian, Khawarizmian. In another words, these languages were the so called "Nabatean Aramaic" written in different scripts and all with 22 alphabets ? Aleph, Beth, Gamal, Dalath - Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta?so on and so forth ? Abgd and written from right to left].
The Persian Empire was forced to employ the contemporaneous languages of the ancient Near East for the record of the empire. For effective diplomatic communication among the provinces of the empire, the so called Nabatean ?Aramaic?, as a Lingua Franca, was chosen. It was a natural choice and a practical one Nabatean ?Aramaic? was already widely spoken in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt, and Western Iran. Anyone, irrespective of whether they were in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt or Persia would be able to comprehend Nabatean ?Aramaic?. So when the Quran talk about 3jam, it means those aforesaid languages, that was widely spoken in the Sasanian Empire in the 3rd Century CE.
As for Arabic, the Quran is actually referring to the Ancient South Arabian that was widely spoken in South Arabia. The difference between the Quranic Arabic and ASA, is that the Quranic Arabic sounds more ?Nabatean Aramaic?. In fact, Quran Arabic is a combination of both so called Nabatean Aramaic and South Arabian Musnad, plausible created in the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. It adopted the same number of alphabet like ASA, 28 alphabets.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century CE, then it is of no use that the Quran mentioned the word 3jam. This is because, the whole of Arabia ? right up to southern Turkey, Persia , Northern Africa, Spain, already adopted Arabic as the spoken and written language since the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. All those other languages with Huzwaresh and the so called Aramaic had already died out and no more in existence. So what is the point of mentioning them in the Quran? The reason why it is mention in the Quran is because, those languages were still a spoken and written language during the Ministry of the Last Prophet in the 3rd Century CE!
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Peace, why are you afraid to insert "Persian" in the verses, it's nonsensical right?
Was it only non-Arabic language at the time or perhaps since Arrazi was Persian?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (the Persian?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers -
Peace, why are you afraid to insert "Persian" in the verses, it's nonsensical right?
What is there to be afraid off? What nonsensical? Cant you even understand what i wrote? Read the above highlighted in green.
Was it only non-Arabic language at the time or perhaps since Arrazi was Persian?
I am not referring to anyone but the actual era of the Quran, when it was first established!
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Noon,
He is crazy about his conspiracy theories. I might think the historical background is biased, but he is extreme often founding his ideas on little background research except from other conspirators. I could although agree that I would find it probable that Quran was made written one to two centuries earlier than traditional sources. The sect of Islam grew forth in the 7th century, but it does not absolutely tell that the scripture was written then. Quran was absolutely not written before Jesus and was not meant as a prophecy until after him. And it is absolutely not a translation from another language but it is in its native language, i.e. Arabic.
The earliest discoveries of another writing using the same character style of letters was in approximately 3rd or 4th centuries A.D and researchers estimate that the language evolved somewhere around that time with this new style of letters. They think that the "Modern" Arabic script was a construct of the Nabetans, an influential and wealthy trading community in the northern Arabia. Only a developed and sophisticated community develop a refined scripting language, and these Arabic letters were made by someone professional who formed them with due contemplation.
Be well
Amenuel -
Noon,
He is crazy about his conspiracy theories. I might think the historical background is biased, but he is extreme often founding his ideas on little background research except from other conspirators. I could although agree that I would find it probable that Quran was made written one to two centuries earlier than traditional sources. The sect of Islam grew forth in the 7th century, but it does not absolutely tell that the scripture was written then. Quran was absolutely not written before Jesus and was not meant as a prophecy until after him. And it is absolutely not a translation from another language but it is in its native language, i.e. Arabic.
This is not a conspiracy theory, its the truth, Quran was written before the inauguration of christianity. QURANIC AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCES PROVES IT ALL. In fact there are no evidences whatsoever of jesus existences before the 4th Century CE as there are no evidences of an Arab Prophet born in the 6th Century CE. The truth was Esa / Esaias, who was born between the 7th and 6th century BCE. But off course you are going to refute! You are not the believer of the Quran. You believe in the Book created by your Pagan emperor!
I dont find you intelligible about the Quran, Nothing that you wrote, did you ever quote any Quranic verses to back up your so call theories. Its from you own brain thinking that you are right, smart and you knew everything. In fact what you know about the Quran and Islam is ZERO. You evil intention is to change the Quran, nothing new from what the sectarians had done! Call yourself Quranist but still believe in all those sectarian craps.
You wrote beautifully, written in the best of English, nothing more but to deceive. The Quran 06112
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.
So much of your hippocracy.
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What is there to be afraid off? What nonsensical? Cant you even understand what i wrote? Read the above highlighted in green.
When you err the right thing to do is acknowledge, thank the person, and make amends to never repeat it.
E.g. you argued earlier...
No it does not mean the Quran is in Arabic.
The Quranic rendering of the word 3rabiya (derived from i3rab), means (those who speak clearly) as contrast with a3jamiya (those who speak indistinctly - outlandish).
Then later you posted in another thread ...
Cross reference with 4144
And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained? Foreign and Arab" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place.
Now back to nonsensical meanings attributing to others...
Hizbullah wrote
"Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?Arrazi is not here to speak for himself; what you wrote is nonsensical and clearly cannot refer to writing elements...
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersPeace
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Then later you posted in another thread ...
Now back to nonsensical meanings attributing to others...
Hizbullah wrote
"Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?Arrazi is not here to speak for himself; what you wrote is nonsensical and clearly cannot refer to writing elements...
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersPeace
Haughtiness is arrogant denial of the truth and contempt for people. Your negatives of intense arrogance, obvious dishonesty and lack of knowledge of the Quran can be stacked you as a LIAR. One could package your numerous flubs, deceptions and refusals to admit error, yet, for one unassailable reason?you insist, the establishment, of your adamant dishonesty in which you patently suggest that those old manuscript of the Quran you posted is the oldest! And you think you are right? You deliberately ignore all the verses of the Quran which proves that it is older than what the sectarian like you taught. The Quran do not need MORON like you to tell how old it is. You are blinded by this facts. Not only that, you cannot even comprehend relevant question I put it to you. That shows what a moron you are. You are more obsessed with disproving what I wrote instead of searching for what is truth! Is this what you call yourself a true researcher and a honest human being?
Yes i wrote all that and also I wrote that my level of comprehending in the Quran has been updated. Why didnt you show that replied i gave you? it only shows what type of character you have. Typical sectarian.
In fact that is what Arrazi said, why dont you check it out yourself before accusing me of deliberately using his name to express myself? i dont owe you any explanation for that!
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Yes i wrote all that and also I wrote that my level of comprehending in the Quran has been updated. Why didnt you show that replied i gave you? it only shows what type of character you have. Typical sectarian.
In fact that is what Arrazi said, why dont you check it out yourself before accusing me of deliberately using his name to express myself? i dont owe you any explanation for that!
You keep ranting above ... I asked you numerous times to clarify your exact meaning "today" and you kept deferring to Arrazi who is not here; likewise clearly showed you in context that it cannot refer to "anything pertaining to writing elements" only to a certain group of "people" i.e. non-Arabic speakers so Arrazi was ignorant if that was what he stated and you are parroting a nonsensical meaning and calling me a liar doesn't help -- no more comments!
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersNow please stop derailing this thread "Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165" going off topic else will report you to moderators.
Peace
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You keep ranting above ... I asked you numerous times to clarify your exact meaning "today" and you kept deferring to Arrazi who is not here; likewise clearly showed you in context that it cannot refer to "anything pertaining to writing elements" only to a certain group of "people" i.e. non-Arabic speakers so Arrazi was ignorant if that was what he stated and you are parroting a nonsensical meaning and calling me a liar doesn't help -- no more comments!
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersNow please stop derailing this thread "Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165" going off topic else will report you to moderators.
Peace
Peace Noon,
My apologies. hail
peace
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This is not a conspiracy theory, its the truth, Quran was written before the inauguration of christianity. QURANIC AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCES PROVES IT ALL. In fact there are no evidences whatsoever of jesus existences before the 4th Century CE as there are no evidences of an Arab Prophet born in the 6th Century CE. The truth was Esa / Esaias, who was born between the 7th and 6th century BCE. But off course you are going to refute! You are not the believer of the Quran. You believe in the Book created by your Pagan emperor!
I dont find you intelligible about the Quran, Nothing that you wrote, did you ever quote any Quranic verses to back up your so call theories. Its from you own brain thinking that you are right, smart and you knew everything. In fact what you know about the Quran and Islam is ZERO. You evil intention is to change the Quran, nothing new from what the sectarians had done! Call yourself Quranist but still believe in all those sectarian craps.
You wrote beautifully, written in the best of English, nothing more but to deceive. The Quran 06112
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.
So much of your hippocracy.
MOF bro,
My apologies hail
peace
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Peace Noon,
My apologies. hail
peace
Peace Hizbullah, thank you for the reminder.
Now back to topic; here are 3 separate manuscripts chapter 20 same style and approximate date...
Sana Manuscripts
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837Probability older than CE...
635.5 56.20%
640.5
645.5 75.10%
650.5
655.5
660.5 95.50%
665.5
670.5
675.5 99.20%http//oi64.tinypic.com/k2bxfm.jpg
MA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//oi64.tinypic.com/293cdo4.jpg
Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx
http//oi68.tinypic.com/28vad82.jpg
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Peace, was reading another thread that some on internet who lack comprehension probably due to lack sunlight believe the sun "literally" took swan dive into a spring pool near some people and rose upon others perhaps hit them on the head. laugh
2142 shall say the foolish from the humankind what turned them about focal point theirs the one be they of on it say to god al-mashriqu/the east (i.e. direction of sunrise) wal-maghribu/and the west (i.e. direction of sunset) guides whom wills to path straight
1817 and thou see the sun when alaat/rose inclining on cave theirs to the right and when gharabat/set passing them to the left and they in open space from it such from signs the god whom guides the god so he (i.e. said person) the guided and whom lets astray so not thou find for him supporter of guide of
1885 so followed means of
1886 until when reached maghriba/west (direction of sunset) the sun found it set in spring dark mud and found near it folk of said we O owner the horned two either that thou punish and/or that thou take amongst them good of
1887 said as for whom wrongs so shortly we punish him furthermore return to lord his so punishes him punishment of harsh
1888 and as for who believe and does righteous of so for him recompense the beautiful and shall we speak to him from directive ours easy of
1889 furthermore followed means of
1890 until when reached rise the sun found it rose on folk not we make for them from against it shelter ofSunset Siwa Egypt (this is very relaxing to watch)
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7k6roKJxnAhttp//oi68.tinypic.com/15n2kvd.jpg
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2mmtw1i.jpg
http//oi63.tinypic.com/14v1spi.jpg
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beautiful view in that video noon... i love these type of views ,
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MOF bro,
My apologies hail
peace
Very well.
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Peace everyone -- verse 2215 came up in another thread and the issue in translation is mostly inconsistency, lack of cross-reference, context, and inserting words not present in the text especially this case concerning those who are on the edge of faith?
1975 say who be in the error falyamdud/so surely extends for him the almighty extension of until when see they of what promised being either the punishment and either the hour so will understand they of who worst place/position of and weaker host of
2211 and from/among the humankind who devoted the god on edge so if struck him good reassured with it and if hits him fit'natun/trial turns on countenance his lost the world and the afterlife such it the loss the clear 2212 calls he of from besides the god what not harms him and what not shall profit him such it the straying the far 2213 calls he of to whom harm his nearer from profit his surely wretched the patron and surely wretched the friend 2214 surely the god enter the ones believes they of and do they of the righteous works gardens flow from underneath it the springs surely the god does what intends
2215 who be that think that never supports him (i.e. who/said person) the god in the world and the afterlife falyamdud/so surely extends bisababin/by means/rope? to the firmament/sky/heaven furthermore l'yaqa/let him cutoff so let sees shall remove disposition his what raged
2216 and like such have descended we it signs clear and that the god guides whom intendshttp//oi66.tinypic.com/2581dua.jpg
http//oi68.tinypic.com/2lzvih.jpg
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@ brother noon send me a link of these pages i mean where i can find whole quran.. in the same sequence.. thanx in advance,,
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Peace everyone -- verse 2215 came up in another thread and the issue in translation is mostly inconsistency, lack of cross-reference, context, and inserting words not present in the text especially this case concerning those who are on the edge of faith?
Did you reach a conclusion about 2215 when you checked the photo's of the old manuscript ? What is your conclusion on it ? I can't help you with this because I have no Arabic knowledge, sadly.
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@ brother noon send me a link of these pages i mean where i can find whole quran.. in the same sequence.. thanx in advance,,
Peace imrankhawaja,
The manuscript 155 pages or ~1/4 of Qur'an (ch17v36 - ch36v55) download best result 132Mb link below...
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
It takes a bit getting used to although after translating numerous pages it gets easier.
Did you reach a conclusion about 2215 when you checked the photo's of the old manuscript ? What is your conclusion on it ? I can't help you with this because I have no Arabic knowledge, sadly.
Peace Dakhan,
No, script is fairly consistent with modern text except for verse numbering e.g. initialed chapters are single verse, etc.
One simply needs to read context it's obvious not telling those on the edge of faith to extend a rope hang themselves?
Likewise ask in context of the verses prior and following who exactly does "him" refer to other than back to who?
2215 who be that think that never supports him the god
Likewise ask how/why this word is translated as rope? by/with ?
1884 surely we established we for him in the land and gave him from each thing means/course of
2644 so threw they of ropes theirs and staffs theirs and say they of by might Firaun/Pharaoh surely we surely we the dominating
1115 on neck hers cord/rope from palm fiberTherefore ...
2214 surely the god enter the ones believes they of and do they of the righteous works gardens flow from underneath it the springs surely the god does what intends
2215 who be that think that never supports him the god in the world and the afterlife so surely/let extends by means/course to the sky/heaven furthermore let him cutoff so let sees shall remove plan/disposition his what raged
2216 and like such have descended we it signs clear and that the god guides whom intends -
Peace imrankhawaja,
The manuscript 155 pages or ~1/4 of Qur'an (ch17v36 - ch36v55) download best result 132Mb link below...
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
It takes a bit getting used to although after translating numerous pages it gets easier.
handshake thanks buddy