Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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Peace,
The manuscript is consistent with today's difference in verse numbering scribe kept checksum as noted with some initials together as single verse 201 ta ha (MA VI 165 and Birmingham Qur'an) together with 202 not descended we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonize
Likewise verse 2040 is clearly split into two separate verses...
2040 when was going sister your so she said shall I show you upon who nurse him so we returned you to mother your that cool/comfort eye hers and not thou grieve and slay thou soul of so saved we you from the distress and tested we you test of (start new verse) so stayed thou years with individuals Madyan furthermore thou came on decree O Moses
There are slight differences with missing alif e.g. 213 distraught (spelled ه.
Here is the rest of ch 20 to beginning of ch 21 ...
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Peace, another example text matches difference in verse numbering...
321 & 322 single verse...
321 alif lam meem (no end verse marks) 322 revelation the book not doubt in it from lord the creations3210 is split into two verses...
3210 and say they of is when we are lost in the land will we surely in creation new ... (start new verse) rather themselves in meeting lord theirs skeptics being
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The verse numbering is not native with the scripture. It is a later addition.
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Quran 1636?..SO TRAVEL IN THE EARTH AND SEE HOW WAS THE END OF THE DENIERS.
So travel the earth and carry out research, investigation and find out what is the truth and what is false.
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?. The ?huzvresh? were words that were so called "Nabatean Aramaic" in origin and were written in the Middle Persian, Soghdian, Khawarizmian. In another words, these languages were the so called "Nabatean Aramaic" written in different scripts and all with 22 alphabets ? Aleph, Beth, Gamal, Dalath - Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta?so on and so forth ? Abgd and written from right to left].
The Persian Empire was forced to employ the contemporaneous languages of the ancient Near East for the record of the empire. For effective diplomatic communication among the provinces of the empire, the so called Nabatean ?Aramaic?, as a Lingua Franca, was chosen. It was a natural choice and a practical one Nabatean ?Aramaic? was already widely spoken in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt, and Western Iran. Anyone, irrespective of whether they were in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt or Persia would be able to comprehend Nabatean ?Aramaic?. So when the Quran talk about 3jam, it means those aforesaid languages, that was widely spoken in the Sasanian Empire in the 3rd Century CE.
As for Arabic, the Quran is actually referring to the Ancient South Arabian that was widely spoken in South Arabia. The difference between the Quranic Arabic and ASA, is that the Quranic Arabic sounds more ?Nabatean Aramaic?. In fact, Quran Arabic is a combination of both so called Nabatean Aramaic and South Arabian Musnad, plausible created in the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. It adopted the same number of alphabet like ASA, 28 alphabets.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century CE, then it is of no use that the Quran mentioned the word 3jam. This is because, the whole of Arabia ? right up to southern Turkey, Persia , Northern Africa, Spain, already adopted Arabic as the spoken and written language since the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. All those other languages with Huzwaresh and the so called Aramaic had already died out and no more in existence. So what is the point of mentioning them in the Quran?
Noon,
Appreciate, if you could answer my question - written in bold.
peace
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Noon,
Appreciate, if you could answer my question - written in bold.
peace
Peace Hizbullah, appreciate if you could acknowledge last question date of manuscript which you are using?
Again you keep making assumptions and already showed evidence which gives a date i.e. range.
MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
Also post questions clearly and what exactly is it you are asking?
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent
al-Razi born 1149 CE in Iran/Persian/alfarisia -- right about what?
Translate word left untranslated?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna ? 26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers
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i asked you a very simple question and you deliberately ignore as usual.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as you and your sectarian allies claimed, why is there the word "a3jam" mention in the Quran? considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Arabic was the spoken and written language in Arabia and the Levant and some part of Persia. To the East of the Persian Empire, Arabic was a religious language because of the Quran!
I do not see the necessity to mention the word "a3jam" , when Arabic is the sole language of the Quran!
Appreciate you could give me a descent answer and dont beat around the bush... nope
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i asked you a very simple question and you deliberately ignore as usual.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as you and your sectarian allies claimed, why is there the word "a3jam" mention in the Quran? considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Arabic was the spoken and written language in Arabia and the Levant and some part of Persia. To the East of the Persian Empire, Arabic was a religious language because of the Quran!
I do not see the necessity to mention the word "a3jam" , when Arabic is the sole language of the Quran!
Appreciate you could give me a descent answer and dont beat around the bush... nope
OK better although don't appreciate your tone and please don't associate me with sectarians to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson ?I am a sect by myself" far as I know; see this is about word meanings and appreciate you answer my earlier question ...
Please translate al-ajamna tell us exactly what it is you are implying?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna ? 26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers
Are you implying it was not part of Arabic language in 7th Century?
What about Ar-Rum/The Romans -- was it part of Arabic language at the time or not?
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OK better although don't appreciate your tone and please don't associate me with sectarians to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson ?I am a sect by myself" far as I know; see this is about word meanings and appreciate you answer my earlier question ...
My apologies, but it seems that your view and many others in this forum are sectarian.
Please translate al-ajamna tell us exactly what it is you are implying?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna ? 26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers
I have already told you in my last post, as mentioned by Arrazi and i have already explained what it actually meant.
Are you implying it was not part of Arabic language in 7th Century?
It is Arabic and i have already explained.
What about Ar-Rum/The Romans -- was it part of Arabic language at the time or not?
Also Arabic.
It seems you do not understand my question.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as claimed, why is there, the word " " mention in the Quran? Considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Quranic Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
The so called Aramaic which is actually Nabatean, aka Ancient North Arabian, or of its variants with Huzwaresh - and the widely spoken language of South Arabia aka Ancient South Arabian is no more a written and spoken language in the 7th Century CE. What remains were only dialects of the peoples, which are not written languages.
What is the purpose of talking about " "?
peace
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I have already told you in my last post, as mentioned by Arrazi and i have already explained what it actually meant.
No not clear; again please clarify exactly the word in question -- what does it mean, insert translation below "al-ajamna"?
It seems you do not understand my question.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as claimed, why is there, the word " " mention in the Quran? Considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Again translate the word in question and what other non-Arabic languages where spoken from 600 - 699 CE i.e. 7th century?
16103 and indeed we know that they saying only teaches him human tongue the one who distorting to him ajamiyyun (insert meaning?) and this tongue arabiyyun clear
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (insert meaning?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of ajamiyyan (insert meaning?) would say they of of why not explained verses its 'jamiyyun (insert meaning?) waarabiyyun say it to the ones believes they of guidance and healing and the ones not believing in ears theirs deafness and it over them blindness surely those being called from place distant
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No not clear; again please clarify exactly the word in question -- what does it mean, insert translation below "al-ajamna"?
Again translate the word in question and what other non-Arabic languages where spoken from 600 - 699 CE i.e. 7th century?
16103 and indeed we know that they saying only teaches him human tongue the one who distorting to him ajamiyyun (insert meaning?) and this tongue arabiyyun clear
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (insert meaning?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of ajamiyyan (insert meaning?) would say they of of why not explained verses its 'jamiyyun (insert meaning?) waarabiyyun say it to the ones believes they of guidance and healing and the ones not believing in ears theirs deafness and it over them blindness surely those being called from place distant
Quran 1636?..SO TRAVEL IN THE EARTH AND SEE HOW WAS THE END OF THE DENIERS.
So travel the earth and carry out research, investigation and find out what is the truth and what is false.
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?. The ?huzvresh? were words that were so called "Nabatean Aramaic" in origin and were written in the Middle Persian, Soghdian, Khawarizmian. In another words, these languages were the so called "Nabatean Aramaic" written in different scripts and all with 22 alphabets ? Aleph, Beth, Gamal, Dalath - Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta?so on and so forth ? Abgd and written from right to left].
The Persian Empire was forced to employ the contemporaneous languages of the ancient Near East for the record of the empire. For effective diplomatic communication among the provinces of the empire, the so called Nabatean ?Aramaic?, as a Lingua Franca, was chosen. It was a natural choice and a practical one Nabatean ?Aramaic? was already widely spoken in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt, and Western Iran. Anyone, irrespective of whether they were in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt or Persia would be able to comprehend Nabatean ?Aramaic?. So when the Quran talk about 3jam, it means those aforesaid languages, that was widely spoken in the Sasanian Empire in the 3rd Century CE.
As for Arabic, the Quran is actually referring to the Ancient South Arabian that was widely spoken in South Arabia. The difference between the Quranic Arabic and ASA, is that the Quranic Arabic sounds more ?Nabatean Aramaic?. In fact, Quran Arabic is a combination of both so called Nabatean Aramaic and South Arabian Musnad, plausible created in the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. It adopted the same number of alphabet like ASA, 28 alphabets.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century CE, then it is of no use that the Quran mentioned the word 3jam. This is because, the whole of Arabia ? right up to southern Turkey, Persia , Northern Africa, Spain, already adopted Arabic as the spoken and written language since the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. All those other languages with Huzwaresh and the so called Aramaic had already died out and no more in existence. So what is the point of mentioning them in the Quran? The reason why it is mention in the Quran is because, those languages were still a spoken and written language during the Ministry of the Last Prophet in the 3rd Century CE!
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Peace, why are you afraid to insert "Persian" in the verses, it's nonsensical right?
Was it only non-Arabic language at the time or perhaps since Arrazi was Persian?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna (the Persian?)
26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers -
Peace, why are you afraid to insert "Persian" in the verses, it's nonsensical right?
What is there to be afraid off? What nonsensical? Cant you even understand what i wrote? Read the above highlighted in green.
Was it only non-Arabic language at the time or perhaps since Arrazi was Persian?
I am not referring to anyone but the actual era of the Quran, when it was first established!
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Noon,
He is crazy about his conspiracy theories. I might think the historical background is biased, but he is extreme often founding his ideas on little background research except from other conspirators. I could although agree that I would find it probable that Quran was made written one to two centuries earlier than traditional sources. The sect of Islam grew forth in the 7th century, but it does not absolutely tell that the scripture was written then. Quran was absolutely not written before Jesus and was not meant as a prophecy until after him. And it is absolutely not a translation from another language but it is in its native language, i.e. Arabic.
The earliest discoveries of another writing using the same character style of letters was in approximately 3rd or 4th centuries A.D and researchers estimate that the language evolved somewhere around that time with this new style of letters. They think that the "Modern" Arabic script was a construct of the Nabetans, an influential and wealthy trading community in the northern Arabia. Only a developed and sophisticated community develop a refined scripting language, and these Arabic letters were made by someone professional who formed them with due contemplation.
Be well
Amenuel -
Noon,
He is crazy about his conspiracy theories. I might think the historical background is biased, but he is extreme often founding his ideas on little background research except from other conspirators. I could although agree that I would find it probable that Quran was made written one to two centuries earlier than traditional sources. The sect of Islam grew forth in the 7th century, but it does not absolutely tell that the scripture was written then. Quran was absolutely not written before Jesus and was not meant as a prophecy until after him. And it is absolutely not a translation from another language but it is in its native language, i.e. Arabic.
This is not a conspiracy theory, its the truth, Quran was written before the inauguration of christianity. QURANIC AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCES PROVES IT ALL. In fact there are no evidences whatsoever of jesus existences before the 4th Century CE as there are no evidences of an Arab Prophet born in the 6th Century CE. The truth was Esa / Esaias, who was born between the 7th and 6th century BCE. But off course you are going to refute! You are not the believer of the Quran. You believe in the Book created by your Pagan emperor!
I dont find you intelligible about the Quran, Nothing that you wrote, did you ever quote any Quranic verses to back up your so call theories. Its from you own brain thinking that you are right, smart and you knew everything. In fact what you know about the Quran and Islam is ZERO. You evil intention is to change the Quran, nothing new from what the sectarians had done! Call yourself Quranist but still believe in all those sectarian craps.
You wrote beautifully, written in the best of English, nothing more but to deceive. The Quran 06112
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.
So much of your hippocracy.
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What is there to be afraid off? What nonsensical? Cant you even understand what i wrote? Read the above highlighted in green.
When you err the right thing to do is acknowledge, thank the person, and make amends to never repeat it.
E.g. you argued earlier...
No it does not mean the Quran is in Arabic.
The Quranic rendering of the word 3rabiya (derived from i3rab), means (those who speak clearly) as contrast with a3jamiya (those who speak indistinctly - outlandish).
Then later you posted in another thread ...
Cross reference with 4144
And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained? Foreign and Arab" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place.
Now back to nonsensical meanings attributing to others...
Hizbullah wrote
"Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?Arrazi is not here to speak for himself; what you wrote is nonsensical and clearly cannot refer to writing elements...
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersPeace
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Then later you posted in another thread ...
Now back to nonsensical meanings attributing to others...
Hizbullah wrote
"Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?Arrazi is not here to speak for himself; what you wrote is nonsensical and clearly cannot refer to writing elements...
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersPeace
Haughtiness is arrogant denial of the truth and contempt for people. Your negatives of intense arrogance, obvious dishonesty and lack of knowledge of the Quran can be stacked you as a LIAR. One could package your numerous flubs, deceptions and refusals to admit error, yet, for one unassailable reason?you insist, the establishment, of your adamant dishonesty in which you patently suggest that those old manuscript of the Quran you posted is the oldest! And you think you are right? You deliberately ignore all the verses of the Quran which proves that it is older than what the sectarian like you taught. The Quran do not need MORON like you to tell how old it is. You are blinded by this facts. Not only that, you cannot even comprehend relevant question I put it to you. That shows what a moron you are. You are more obsessed with disproving what I wrote instead of searching for what is truth! Is this what you call yourself a true researcher and a honest human being?
Yes i wrote all that and also I wrote that my level of comprehending in the Quran has been updated. Why didnt you show that replied i gave you? it only shows what type of character you have. Typical sectarian.
In fact that is what Arrazi said, why dont you check it out yourself before accusing me of deliberately using his name to express myself? i dont owe you any explanation for that!
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Yes i wrote all that and also I wrote that my level of comprehending in the Quran has been updated. Why didnt you show that replied i gave you? it only shows what type of character you have. Typical sectarian.
In fact that is what Arrazi said, why dont you check it out yourself before accusing me of deliberately using his name to express myself? i dont owe you any explanation for that!
You keep ranting above ... I asked you numerous times to clarify your exact meaning "today" and you kept deferring to Arrazi who is not here; likewise clearly showed you in context that it cannot refer to "anything pertaining to writing elements" only to a certain group of "people" i.e. non-Arabic speakers so Arrazi was ignorant if that was what he stated and you are parroting a nonsensical meaning and calling me a liar doesn't help -- no more comments!
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersNow please stop derailing this thread "Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165" going off topic else will report you to moderators.
Peace
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You keep ranting above ... I asked you numerous times to clarify your exact meaning "today" and you kept deferring to Arrazi who is not here; likewise clearly showed you in context that it cannot refer to "anything pertaining to writing elements" only to a certain group of "people" i.e. non-Arabic speakers so Arrazi was ignorant if that was what he stated and you are parroting a nonsensical meaning and calling me a liar doesn't help -- no more comments!
26198 and in case we revealed it on others (i.e. people) al-ajamna (the non-Arabic speakers)
26199 so recited it on them (i.e. the non Arabic speakers) not be they of in it believersNow please stop derailing this thread "Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165" going off topic else will report you to moderators.
Peace
Peace Noon,
My apologies. hail
peace
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This is not a conspiracy theory, its the truth, Quran was written before the inauguration of christianity. QURANIC AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCES PROVES IT ALL. In fact there are no evidences whatsoever of jesus existences before the 4th Century CE as there are no evidences of an Arab Prophet born in the 6th Century CE. The truth was Esa / Esaias, who was born between the 7th and 6th century BCE. But off course you are going to refute! You are not the believer of the Quran. You believe in the Book created by your Pagan emperor!
I dont find you intelligible about the Quran, Nothing that you wrote, did you ever quote any Quranic verses to back up your so call theories. Its from you own brain thinking that you are right, smart and you knew everything. In fact what you know about the Quran and Islam is ZERO. You evil intention is to change the Quran, nothing new from what the sectarians had done! Call yourself Quranist but still believe in all those sectarian craps.
You wrote beautifully, written in the best of English, nothing more but to deceive. The Quran 06112
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.
So much of your hippocracy.
MOF bro,
My apologies hail
peace
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Peace Noon,
My apologies. hail
peace
Peace Hizbullah, thank you for the reminder.
Now back to topic; here are 3 separate manuscripts chapter 20 same style and approximate date...
Sana Manuscripts
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837Probability older than CE...
635.5 56.20%
640.5
645.5 75.10%
650.5
655.5
660.5 95.50%
665.5
670.5
675.5 99.20%http//oi64.tinypic.com/k2bxfm.jpg
MA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//oi64.tinypic.com/293cdo4.jpg
Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx
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