Faith no more

imrankhawaja

@ mof you are also insightful perosn isnt it?

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

Please reflect on what you said,Quote

This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.

Then you go on to add,quote

This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.

And ,quote

Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.

Is this not confusing?
I thought the Arabic Qoran says the same things since over 1400 years ago? Where do you see the contradictions?
Yes,brother,I forgot, you are going to explain it in your next post?
GOD bless you.
Peace

imrankhawaja

Peace Man Of Faith.

Please reflect on what you said,Quote

This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.

Then you go on to add,quote

This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.

And ,quote

Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.

Is this not confusing?
I thought the Arabic Qoran says the same things since over 1400 years ago? Where do you see the contradictions?
Yes,brother,I forgot, you are going to explain it in your next post?
GOD bless you.
Peace

yes it happens always people like GL ask difficult questions from prophets (insightful) people... and they will reply always .. its another matter out of million followers only 5 can hardly understand and beleive on some of the insightful persons..theories

same like every actor not get popular like shahrukh khan...
every insightful perosn not get popular like prophet muhammad...

very simple and logical..

FaithNoMore

I think you?ve misunderstood my position. I never rejected the Quran because of something I found in hadith or history. I rejected the Quran first and then studied Islam/Mohammed as a historian. I was a Quranist and had an audio of the Quran on playback most of the time. After a while I found the hatred very problematic and for a year was afraid to listen to the Quran in case I found another issue. I made excuses like, ?It?s classical Arabic. I?ll never understand it. Maybe I don?t have the right dictionaries. Maybe the verses haven?t been preserved correctly e.t.c?. Trust me, I made every possible excuse, took every possible position not to reject the Quran.

Also now that the Quranist mentality is not applicable, I can understand the view point of the Quran + Hadith camp. I don?t have a vested interest in either position, so I can see them objectively. They are both equally justified.

When I look at Islamic history now, I ask myself ?Can the justification for this act or behaviour be found in the Quran?? and the answer yes mostly.

So, again there is no 180 turn. Just the Quran by itself was enough to reject it.

Happy to clarify my position further if needed.

So to summarize

Would you agree with that conclusion? Or at least agree with the claim that Islamic history must, in some way, be considered when studying the Qur'an? Why or why not?

As a non-believer I see both as equally valid positions.

I find it intriguing that this radical shift of thinking occurs. I would like to know why, if this is your current belief and if you can explain it for me.

Are you asking me what issues I found in the Quran?

hawk99

Peace

I think in discussions like this two things are exposed

The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
loneliness.
The believers misunderstand/disbelieve their lord when he says

45/23 Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god,
and Allah has made him err having knowledge and has set a seal upon his
ear and his heart and put a covering upon his eye. Who can then guide
him after Allah? Will you not then be mindful?

and

6/111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead
had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them,
they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.

Peace Comrox.

I agree debating can be a waste of time and effort.

I also agree

its not debate its , a freindly request if he have evidence of his claims we must accept that . so thats y i also request him to show me the way in the shape of verses so tht i can also ponder on it.. and if i find it logical and true i also stop believing on God..

Interesting hmm Please read 45/23 above.

Lakum deenukum waliya deeni

FaithNoMore

peace FNM,

I was clearly asking YOU about YOUR findings, thus my views/mindset is completely irrelevant.

One of the reasons I asked what I did was because I sometimes see people making these claims BUT when asked to produce the strongest evidence they have, almost all (in my experience) evade answering.

I will let readers make up their own mind as to what this implies.

Wakas, I am presenting my findings through what is already available on the internet. It's very time consuming to type out every detail.
I have read your arguments to-date on this topic (Zul Qarnain) and have selected these videos especially for you

It's a simple request. Watch the videos. Does anything perturb you? Then we can take the conversation on separate thread.

imrankhawaja

Interesting hmm Please read 45/23 above.

Lakum deenukum waliya deeni

hmmm
i m gona add some more ... from my collections...

4330 And when the truth came to them, they said ?This is magic, and we reject it.?
4331 And they said ?If only this Qur?an was sent down to a man ofgreatness from the two towns!?
4332 Is it they who assign the mercy of your Lord? We have assigned their share in this worldly life, and We raised some of them aboveothers in ranks, so that they would take one another in service.The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they
amass.

Who breaks covenant with Allah after establishing it and cut what Allah has ordered to be joined,
and cause disorder on earth. They are the losers. 2 27

1036 The majority of people follow nothing but conjecture. But conjecture can never be a substitute for
the Reality of things.God is Knower of what they do (and forge).

2210 That is for what your hands have brought forth, and God does not wrong the servants.
2211 Andfrom the people there is he who serves God nervously. So if good comes to him,
he is content with it; and if an ordeal comes to him, he makes an about-face.
He has lost this world and the Hereafter. Such is the clear loss.
2212 He calls upon besides God what will not harm him and what will not benefit him. Such is the far straying.

2215 Whosoever thinks that God will not grant him victory in this world and the Hereafter,
then let him extend his request to the heaven via some means,
then let him cut off and see whether this action the cause of his anger

6164 Say "Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?"
And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another.
Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.

FaithNoMore

Peace

I think in discussions like this two things are exposed

The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
loneliness.

You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.

The believers misunderstand/disbelieve their lord when he says

45/23 Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god,
and Allah has made him err having knowledge and has set a seal upon his
ear and his heart and put a covering upon his eye. Who can then guide
him after Allah? Will you not then be mindful?

Again you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.

and

6/111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead
had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them,
they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.

No, again you assume what I think.

If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen. I'm not ignorant.

Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.

Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.

FaithNoMore

The best "chance of prosperity" is with clarity of mind.

You are on a different level. I like it.

Do you have a youtube channel. You should present your views in videos or in a blog.

Cerberus

There is no point for this.

If you have spent 20 years looking for the truth and you found it, then you shouldn't be wasting anymore of your time.

And if bashing is gonna make you sleep better I'm pretty sure there are tons of better places for that.

Rekkd

You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.

Again you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.

No, again you assume what I think.

If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen. I'm not ignorant.

Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.

Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.

Such a hypocrite.

mmkhan

I do hope there is a higher power that guides me, but I know it can never be anything like the God of the Quran.

Hi FNM,

Red That is enough to believe. No need for other things. Good luck at your journey.

hawk99

You assumed my motives were jealousy/anger without proof. This is what your Quran teaches you. In the end you will be suspicious of everyone.

Not true, I accept everyone's view as their own, Allah is the creator of all,
You are free to not believe. yes

Again you question my motives as a "low desire". This verse only sows the seeds of hatred.

From who, you?

No, again you assume what I think.

If 6111 happened I would be the first to believe. But it didn't happen. It will never happen.

is that what you require, to witness a metaphor? nope

Please keep quoting the Quran and exposing it's stupidity.

The Mirror effect, the Quran reflects what's in our hearts.

Even my SatNav has more sense than your Allah. When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn
me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.

May I add hatred to your list of reasons for your
interactions with the believers! what a shame

Lakum deenukum waliya deeni

full stop. police

mmkhan

Well, Allah of (the sectarian interpretation of) Quran is not particularly guiding. Very worldly one that. Some cleric/s was/were that Being (Allah). There is a higher power that can guide you, but that consists of one unity of being.

Salaam MoF,

Red nope

Inna hudaAllahi huwa alHuda.

reel

Peace

I think in discussions like this two things are exposed

The kufar still needs to connect with the believers out of jealousy/anger
loneliness.
The believers misunderstand/disbelieve their lord when he says

45/23 Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god,
and Allah has made him err having knowledge and has set a seal upon his
ear and his heart and put a covering upon his eye. Who can then guide
him after Allah? Will you not then be mindful?

and

6/111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead
had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them,
they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.

I also agree

Interesting hmm Please read 45/23 above.

Lakum deenukum waliya deeni

I do believe he should leave. We need people who have leadership quality and a mind of their own that can communicate with Allah. What is described by him is what we DO NOT need in this movement

I never rejected the Quran because of something I found in hadith or history. I rejected the Quran first and then studied Islam/Mohammed as a historian. I was a Quranist and had an audio of the Quran on playback most of the time. After a while I found the hatred very problematic and for a year was afraid to listen to the Quran in case I found another issue. I made excuses like, ?It?s classical Arabic. I?ll never understand it. Maybe I don?t have the right dictionaries. Maybe the verses haven?t been preserved correctly e.t.c?. Trust me, I made every possible excuse, took every possible position not to reject the Quran.

FaithNoMore

Not true, I accept everyone's view as their own, Allah is the creator of all,
You are free to not believe

Except you must seize and kill me 489.

Or at the very least despise me. Quran is not very fond of the Kafir .. i.e. one who doesn't share your belief.

Show me a few "love thy kafir" verses. Then I might consider myself free to disbelieve.

The Mirror effect, the Quran reflects what's in our hearts

No my dear friend. Your heart will reflect what is in the Quran. Hate and fear will always destroy.

Bender

Quran is not very fond of the Kafir .. i.e. one who doesn't share your belief.

Show me a few "love thy kafir" verses. Then I might consider myself free to disbelieve.

Of course the quran is not very fond of kafirs.
They are called for a reason kafirs, and you will indeed not find a single good word about kafirs, they are the worst of all people.

imrankhawaja

there are always two type of people everywhere in every catagory,,

right and wrong
pass and fail
beleivers and disbeleivers(kafirs)

dis not court treat the citizen who cause trouble in land with different level than the ones who obey law...

obey and disobey...

even anyone is kaffir while doing sin.. cause they break the law.. one need to understand this phenomenon...

i hope court did not welcome any criminal with flowers in the hand... if thats the case then quran is also wrong about not using favorable language for disbeleivers...

truthseeker11

Peace FaithNoMore,

Welcome back to the forum. welcome

I have been around on this forum for a long time and I am pretty sure if I knew your old name, I would recognize you instantly!

I have left Islam

I left the pagan fabricated religion of "Islam" (capital I, proper noun, nowhere to be found in the quran) long time ago and embraced the concept of "islam"/peacemaking in my life (small i, common noun state of being, as used in the quran), along with doing good deeds (service to others). My current view is that of "deistic (warm type) panentheistic monotheism" (2115, 2435, 1121, 1529, 3872) and I consider myself a "muslim"/peacemaker (small m, descriptive common noun). I accept the existence of One Infinite Creator, and the concept of just and fair repercussions to one's actions.

http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part2.pdf

I am pretty sure that you are a "muslim"/peacemaker as well if you are not a criminal (6835). Please correct me if I am wrong. All of us are one in reality and being a "muslim"/peacemaker and helping others by doing good deeds is actually helping oneself!

I also believed in Code 19 (firmly) and scientific miracles of the Quran, but these unravelled quickly when I studied them critically after learning real maths and science.

I have been fortunate to never believe in the nonsense of code 19. The quran itself actually never promotes code 19, it is just a human fabrication.

As far as the science verses are concerned, I have been stumped by bones coming before flesh in the embryology verses. I happened to study embryology in great detail (as part of my truth seeking and verification per 4153), and know that in reality the bones and muscles form simultaneously. Actually cartilage and muscle form simultaneously and bones come later on. I have also been troubled by the "projectile" verses, since I have studied astronomy in great detail as well.

Briefly, what broke me out of my hypnosis was the flat earth, geocentric cosmology of the Quran.

The cosmology verses use words that can go either way and are not necessarily geocentric or pointing to flat earth.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608757.msg393846#msg393846

Mountains cast down like anchors to stop the earth moving

My geology studies have led me to a similar conclusion as yours.

I know the usual excuses, ?It?s not a book of science?, ?don?t take it literally?. How long can one take this approach? Soon there will be nothing literal left in the Quran. It offers no insight into the world and or any guidance. Most of the Quran is about following the messenger blindly. Mohammed was trying to build up a following through fear. He offered no miracles or any knowledge that people didn?t already have. ?Believe in me or you will be punished?. Of course the punishment didn?t come from God but from the hands of Mohammed.

I agree that a lot of people including me have fallen victim to various logical fallacies such as circular reasoning, begging the question, strawman, unwarranted assumptions, false analogies, argument from ignorance, false dilemma, deductive fallacy etc. in order to justify dogmatic preconceptions, biases and blind beliefs which seriously hinders truth seeking.

I try to follow the quranic methodology of using inner compass/intuition (3030), mind/reason (482, 2368, 3829), knowledge (1736), real world evidence in form of truths in horizons and within ourselves (4153, 5120-21) and careful investigation (494) for verification of ANY STATEMENT before blindly believing.

If you study him as a historical character, he is awful.

Most of the Islamic history was fabricated and manufactured after burning thousands of original books.

Once you realise that the Quran is not from God you will see the bullshit. It is nothing but another idol. You must smash it. Remember, if you were born a muslim, you will have a lot of confirmation bias. Can you honestly say you are objective? Less than 0.5% change their birth religion. The truth is whatever you are born into.

I agree with not idolizing the quran. Even the quran never promotes "quran alone" but "God alone" and advises you to verify its own truth using what I call "quranic methodology".

The quran does have many profound and amazing truths though (e.g. 2115, 262 etc.), but is not the only source of truths. The truths are in the horizons and within ourselves as well which should be used to verify the truth of the quran itself (4153).

I read the Quran now and I see how hate filled it is and uses fear to shut down your rationality.

The fear based messages and an angry, wrathful, vengeful, and jealous god have troubled me as well.

Quran never addresses women once. They are always addressed as property of men, even when it comes to their menses. 3195 was only revealed when the wives of the prophet complained why God does not mention women.

The misogyny, patriarchy, and discrimination against women has troubled me as well.

I?m not posting here to debate anyone. The desire to wake up must come from within. Besides, all the resources are on the internet. If you are brave enough to look. The best resource is the ?The Masked Arab? on youtube. I also find Hasan Radwan were interesting. Here?s a great video about the how the concept of hell was developed

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uniMzg0Qrws

Sanaa manuscripts provide undeniable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering with the original text of the quran. In at least one verse, there is evidence of addition of "painful punishment in hereafter" at a later time. I suspect the original text of the quran might not have mentioned any "eternal fire in hereafter".

I am awaiting the discovery of the original text of the quran (8521-22) for verification of the truth (4153).

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608711.msg392150#msg392150

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606834.msg356707#msg356707

However, I do agree with the quranic concept of repercussions to one's actions, doing good deeds, and existence of a higher power, the infinite Creator (262, 569, 2115).

I?m posting here now to ask you read the Quran critically.

Excellent advice.

I now believe science is the only way to determine reality and what is good for us.

Science is one of the tools for verification of the truth. The problem is knowledge obtained through science has been shown to be wrong as well sometimes.

I do hope there is a higher power that guides me, but I know it can never be anything like the God of the Quran.

I feel I have firm knowledge of existence of the Creator. Please see the following

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16702.msg394770#msg394770
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9409.msg394769#msg394769

Additionally, the original text of the quran (the original positive message that was channeled) might not have some attributes of the Creator that are found in the current text.

As I mentioned you can start by looking at The Masked Arab.

https//www.youtube.com/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA/videos

Thank you for the recommendations. Look forward to watching all the evidence.

If you are willing, please watch these two videos. Then let me know if you are perturbed by them.

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sju28v0dCw8

I thought I had the "perspective" defense for the setting of sun discrepancy but the video blows that defense out of the water and utterly destroys it! I am speechless hmm wow

No wonder no one here has been able to refute it. Instead I see obvious evasion tactics used by at least one poster.

When I make a wrong turn it doesn't condemn me or set a seal upon my heart, but it re-calibrates a new path for me. No matter how many mistakes I make I always make it to my destination.

Wow, amazing analogy. I have firm belief and evidence that the true infinite Creator has unconditional love for ALL CREATION and no matter how many mistakes you make, it will always give you another chance and make sure you make it to your destination.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608434.msg391195#msg391195

May the infinite Creator guide us all to the truth.

Peace

Comrox

Peace reel, all,

I do believe he should leave. We need people who have leadership quality and a mind of their own that can communicate with Allah. What is described by him is what we DO NOT need in this movement

This forum is still "Free Minds" though, isn't it?

If we all keep it civil and polite, respecting one another's beliefs, I see no reason why we all can't have a good discussion. group peace