Faith no more
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I think youve misunderstood my position. I never rejected the Quran because of something I found in hadith or history. I rejected the Quran first and then studied Islam/Mohammed as a historian. I was a Quranist and had an audio of the Quran on playback most of the time. After a while I found the hatred very problematic and for a year was afraid to listen to the Quran in case I found another issue. I made excuses like, Its classical Arabic. Ill never understand it. Maybe I dont have the right dictionaries. Maybe the verses havent been preserved correctly e.t.c. Trust me, I made every possible excuse, took every possible position not to reject the Quran.
Also now that the Quranist mentality is not applicable, I can understand the view point of the Quran + Hadith camp. I dont have a vested interest in either position, so I can see them objectively. They are both equally justified.
When I look at Islamic history now, I ask myself Can the justification for this act or behaviour be found in the Quran? and the answer yes mostly.
So, again there is no 180 turn. Just the Quran by itself was enough to reject it.
Happy to clarify my position further if needed.
So to summarize
As a non-believer I see both as equally valid positions.
Are you asking me what issues I found in the Quran?No, I wasn't talking about what issues you have found at all. I was simply asking if you would agree that Qur'an needs the accepted Islamic history in order to understand it. Not about rejection or belief, but simply asking if you thought the book needs that historical context or not. I see you speak about taking history into account, so I would say yes, but then you also say you see them both objectively and by themselves, so I am still a bit confused but from your line that that they are both equally valid, I believe I now understand your position. I take it that you can think either way, depending on your audience, but you do think that Islamic history can be something to be considered.
Thanks for the clarification. peace
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Believe me or be punished is also done by our parents, the people that love us most in this world. When I did something wrong as a kid i remember my father or mother punishing me, did they hate me? Were they tyrants? Was it out of love?...
bravo
I would also advise you to read ALL post of truthseeker11 and reel. Insha ALLAH, you will comprehend Islam better than before. Also, see link below....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0
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Peace Man Of Faith.
Please reflect on what you said,Quote
This I do not agree with you on though. Quran was made written by Rabb or to say an insightful prophet who were in the Rabb and the Rabb in him (or could be her). The "bullshit" is whatever story has been fabricated about Quran on what it should say. Few people are objective though, this is correct, and that is why no one has challenged to established interpretation on a wider scale and why the current flimsy version of it is still accepted. To read Quran as intended it needs a complete reevaluation.
I know what I wrote so there is not really any need to reflect. What is your point?
Then you go on to add,quote
This is true. Quran is full of hate. The god is completely out of control and will condemn people eternally for not believing in it. It is like a megalomaniac dictator who just cannot get enough of attention and will execute anyone who does not accept him. No one ever reflects on it that way.
Is it not true?
And ,quote
Quran seems to make little distinction between man and woman, not prioritizing it as something important. We only have genders in the body while the spirit is asexual. For a bodily/worldly person the gender might be important.
Well, Quran does not have any particular emphasis on genders. Why would it be important if it is only in the flesh where you have a gender?
Is this not confusing?
What is confusing?
I thought the Arabic Qoran says the same things since over 1400 years ago? Where do you see the contradictions?
Yes,brother,I forgot, you are going to explain it in your next post?
GOD bless you.
PeaceIt never had a proper interpretation. It is full of contradictions and inconsistencies if one is objective just like 'FaithNoMore' has pointed out. But like I wrote, rather than 'FaithNoMore' claims, Quran does say underneath all that falsehood something else which is much more sensible.
I suppose where you are getting. I forgot to add the usual "in the sectarian interpretation of". Obviously I mean only in the sectarian intrpretation "Quran is full of hate".
Quran was made written by Rabb
Quran is full of hate
Be well
Amenuel -
The sentence started really bad, I was using my mobile and thinking to fast while typing really slow ;D. My english is awesome btw
The power of the human brain's "auto correct"... I read it as, "Believe me or not, punishment is also done by our parents..."
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Salaam MoF,
Red nope
Inna hudaAllahi huwa alHuda.
I wrote "in the sectarian interpretation of" within parenthesis. Quran is guiding.
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You are on a different level. I like it.
Do you have a youtube channel. You should present your views in videos or in a blog.
Unfortunately not. I only have another forum. But making a presentation on YouTube might not be a bad idea.
Faith is really really simple, it only takes realizing the world is a test and that it is intentionally made to corrupt its inhabitants into primitive activities, religious thinking included with a Pagan visualization of a god. The remedy is to simply be aware of the fact it is corrupting and do something about it using your willpower against the primate body (science proves the human is an ape, right?). The common religious belief is a kind of faith which is only an upgrade of the physical stone statues, it is like a virtual god statue instead but still an object. It is like Paganism 2.0. It is pretty dimwitted actually, but I have been there done that too, I have also been deluded while I as ignorant, and my faith was more sound while I had not let myself be absorbed by (the sectarian interpretation of) Quran and the sect Islam. Yet this 'Rabb' phenomenon drew me towards Quran for a reason. I did not grow up with Quran, I had not even experienced it until I was about 28 years old and I even held prejudices both towards it and Muslims because their faith seemed so primitive, yet I over a couple of years or so started with those sectarian fabricated prayers because at first Quran made such a strong impression on me, until I turned to study it objectively. Questions one can ask is "Why would the most advanced phenomenon in existence require this from me?, or "What do I exactly benefit from these physical movements and why do they resemble how Pagans worshiped their statues in the past and how people glorified their worldly megalomaniac dictator king in ancient kingdoms?", or "is "God" not more sophisticated than that?", or "Does "God" wish to create some sort of pet farm with pets that do not fill any productive use?"
The phenomenon called "God" is truly a oneness, working like a singularity meaning it contains a lot, but it has no real space taking yet inside the singularity it seems enormous. Everything within the singularity is of its contents, and that is true for us, we are a part of this unit. We are to develop an independent Being within the Unity. The strength of your being is what is most important of everything.
Be well
Amenuel -
@ mof you are also insightful perosn isnt it?
If you have insight you are insightful, are you not?
Either way it is up to each person to judge that themselves. That is not my problem. And I do not have a problem if someone says I have not, and it is their problem whatever happens with them, it is their fate.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace all,
Thank you brother Hizbullah for the kind words.
I would urge everyone to read Hizbullah's posts, since he has an excellent grasp of intricacies of the Quranic system. I would however like to stress that we are all human and therefore prone to making mistakes, so please verify everything you read for yourself and use mind/reason, inner compass, knowledge, and truths in the horizons and within yourselves to verify the truth of anything you come across. Please discard anything I say that does not resonate with you. In reality only our RABB guides and only our RABB is the source of all truth.
May our RABB guide us all to the truth.
Peace
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sometimes its better to look around before cross the road.... )
now look around again... before and after 4153 all of you... brothers and sisters...
4152 Say, ?Think If this (revelation) is from God, and then you reject it! Who is further astray than one who stubbornly opposes it?? tempt
4153 Soon, shall We show them Our signs in the utmost Horizons and within themselves until it becomes obvious to them that this Qur?an is certainly the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is Witness to all things (including this proclamation)? within themselves signs(ayat) i already describe .. the ayats regarding horizons and stuff like 2130 big bang exapanding universe and so on is also need to be ponder... but either way the discoveries of these signs what mention in quran regarding both claims are successfully achieved...
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their Lord; but He is Encompassing over all things.
may God bless us wisdom to understand some things which are not really difficult ... hail
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If you have insight you are insightful, are you not?
Either way it is up to each person to judge that themselves. That is not my problem. And I do not have a problem if someone says I have not, and it is their problem whatever happens with them, it is their fate.
Be well
Amenuelhmm allright..
is there is any difference between the prophet and the one who have insight in it? like me and you... i mean any color code /dress code/ scripture code... or any thing that make him qualified as a prophet ..
is it also important for the insighttful person to meet with gabi...
may b sometimes he also see God in the shape of powerful light that break things around... hmm
can somebody become insightful(prophet) by his own choice or it God that make a decision ?
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Right ou, I do not believe you. Eiher you didn' kow that much arabic to come wih what you comme out and just have ploddered along with the worst "rditional" islam or you are no who you say you are or wha you say you are.
The sin of anntiqur'an is not literalish but lack of i. I doub tha4youu have undersood anything of wha you blame on the Qur'an and sincerely, I doub your sicerity. What you are saying is he usual propaganda. And thank you but you can drop your role of redeemer of us poor deceived. And your Adam and Eve heme cliches all. No EVe in he Qur'an, thank you. As usual you are shoving on e Qur'an your assummpions from oher sources.
Salaam
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Peace all....
Peace all,
Thank you brother Hizbullah for the kind words.You are most welcome, brother.
I would urge everyone to read Hizbullah's posts, since he has an excellent grasp of intricacies of the Quranic system. I would however like to stress that we are all human and therefore prone to making mistakes, so please verify everything you read for yourself and use mind/reason, inner compass, knowledge, and truths in the horizons and within yourselves to verify the truth of anything you come across. Please discard anything I say that does not resonate with you. In reality only our RABB guides and only our RABB is the source of all truth.
Yes, this is very important.
May our RABB guide us all to the truth.
Peace
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Of course the quran is not very fond of kafirs.
They are called for a reason kafirs, and you will indeed not find a single good word about kafirs, they are the worst of all people.Beautiful. And for what crime must the kafir be hated? Is it that he doesn't share your belief?
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Unfortunately not. I only have another forum. But making a presentation on YouTube might not be a bad idea.
Faith is really really simple, it only takes realizing the world is a test and that it is intentionally made to corrupt its inhabitants into primitive activities, religious thinking included with a Pagan visualization of a god. The remedy is to simply be aware of the fact it is corrupting and do something about it using your willpower against the primate body (science proves the human is an ape, right?). The common religious belief is a kind of faith which is only an upgrade of the physical stone statues, it is like a virtual god statue instead but still an object. It is like Paganism 2.0. It is pretty dimwitted actually, but I have been there done that too, I have also been deluded while I as ignorant, and my faith was more sound while I had not let myself be absorbed by (the sectarian interpretation of) Quran and the sect Islam. Yet this 'Rabb' phenomenon drew me towards Quran for a reason. I did not grow up with Quran, I had not even experienced it until I was about 28 years old and I even held prejudices both towards it and Muslims because their faith seemed so primitive, yet I over a couple of years or so started with those sectarian fabricated prayers because at first Quran made such a strong impression on me, until I turned to study it objectively. Questions one can ask is "Why would the most advanced phenomenon in existence require this from me?, or "What do I exactly benefit from these physical movements and why do they resemble how Pagans worshiped their statues in the past and how people glorified their worldly megalomaniac dictator king in ancient kingdoms?", or "is "God" not more sophisticated than that?", or "Does "God" wish to create some sort of pet farm with pets that do not fill any productive use?"
The phenomenon called "God" is truly a oneness, working like a singularity meaning it contains a lot, but it has no real space taking yet inside the singularity it seems enormous. Everything within the singularity is of its contents, and that is true for us, we are a part of this unit. We are to develop an independent Being within the Unity. The strength of your being is what is most important of everything.
Be well
AmenuelI can respect that brother. For me the opposite happened. Rabb drew me away from the Quran.
For a along time I promoted Quran-alone. I thought it was the answer to solve the problems of Muslims.For a year I stopped reading the Quran because I was so afraid of loosing faith in it. I had invested so much in studying it.
I do not know where you and I fit in this plan, but it is interesting.
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Thanks for clarifying.
Usually I don't read what is inside parenthesis because of my habit to ignore it while reading translations of alQuraan. Sorry.I have begun not to write things within parenthesis which are related directly to what I am saying, but at times it occurs still. In this case the parenthesis was perhaps redundant and misplaced.
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Peace FaithNoMore,
Welcome back to the forum. welcome
I have been around on this forum for a long time and I am pretty sure if I knew your old name, I would recognize you instantly!
Yes you would my brother. group
I am pretty sure that you are a "muslim"/peacemaker as well if you are not a criminal (6835). Please correct me if I am wrong. All of us are one in reality and being a "muslim"/peacemaker and helping others by doing good deeds is actually helping oneself!
Yes I am a muslim according to you and I appreciate that. I am kafir according to the Quran for simple crime that I say it is not the word of God, but the work of man.
That makes me lowest of lows. Worst than a believing murderer rapist scumbag.As far as the science verses are concerned, I have been stumped by bones coming before flesh in the embryology verses. I happened to study embryology in great detail (as part of my truth seeking and verification per 4153), and know that in reality the bones and muscles form simultaneously. Actually cartilage and muscle form simultaneously and bones come later on. I have also been troubled by the "projectile" verses, since I have studied astronomy in great detail as well.
Agreed. When I get time I will open a new thread for this and share my findings with you. In the meantime Search for The Rationalizer on youtube.
The cosmology verses use words that can go either way and are not necessarily geocentric or pointing to flat earth.
That was my belief too. I will present my evidence on this topic at some point. There's only one of me and I'm trying to respond to 20.
My geology studies have led me to a similar conclusion as yours.
I agree that a lot of people including me have fallen victim to various logical fallacies such as circular reasoning, begging the question, strawman, unwarranted assumptions, false analogies, argument from ignorance, false dilemma, deductive fallacy etc. in order to justify dogmatic preconceptions, biases and blind beliefs which seriously hinders truth seeking.
I try to follow the quranic methodology of using inner compass/intuition (3030), mind/reason (482, 2368, 3829), knowledge (1736), real world evidence in form of truths in horizons and within ourselves (4153, 5120-21) and careful investigation (494) for verification of ANY STATEMENT before blindly believing.
Agreed.
Most of the Islamic history was fabricated and manufactured after burning thousands of original books.
But you can study it as a historian. You can ask yourself why people fabricated hadith. What was the inspiration for Sharia.
How was the mindset of the early muslims shaped. You will see the road goes back to the Quran.Aren't we creating a new tafseer here on this forum?
I agree with not idolizing the quran. Even the quran never promotes "quran alone" but "God alone" and advises you to verify its own truth using what I call "quranic methodology".
Yes I do concede the message of monotheism is rock solid in the Quran.
The quran does have many profound and amazing truths though (e.g. 2115, 262 etc.), but is not the only source of truths. The truths are in the horizons and within ourselves as well which should be used to verify the truth of the quran itself (4153).
Agreed. Although 262 is abrogated by 385. The Quran is in two parts. Meccan verses and Medinan verses.
Meccan verses are peaceful, because Mohamed was weak. As soon as he gained power in Medina the violent intolerant verses came.
Look at his life, one wife in Mecca vs many in Medina. The guy flipped. Classic example of how power corrupts.
Read the Quran in revelation order and you'll see the tone change.
The fear based messages and an angry, wrathful, vengeful, and jealous god have troubled me as well.
The misogyny, patriarchy, and discrimination against women has troubled me as well.
Brother, how many lives have these verses ruined. Why would God put a "wife beating" verse knowing that it would be abused, and wait 1400 years to reveal it's true meaning by Quranists.
He coud have easliy said "admonish them, leave them but never ever beat them". He didn't, because it's not from God.
Yes, there are peaceful verses. But they are just a politician talking. Even Hitler said nice things now and then.
Imagine if Trump said "Muslims are pigs and apes" and there was uproar.
Would you say "hey don't take Trump out of context." We literally let the Quran get away with murder.
You are a good muslim because you put reason over revelation. Majority won't. History is my witness.
Hadith and sharia are inspired by the misogyny of the Quran.
Sanaa manuscripts provide undeniable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering with the original text of the quran. In at least one verse, there is evidence of addition of "painful punishment in hereafter" at a later time. I suspect the original text of the quran might not have mentioned any "eternal fire in hereafter".
I am awaiting the discovery of the original text of the quran (8521-22) for verification of the truth (4153).
I can't wait anymore. It breaks my heart to see the state of the muslim world.
I contributed to the problem, by sanitizing and apologizing for the Quran. I called critics kafir and misundestood their motives.It's not the literalist extremist who are the problem. It us intellectual apologists who are the problem.
We are amazing at coming up with excuses for the Quran.Science is one of the tools for verification of the truth. The problem is knowledge obtained through science has been shown to be wrong as well sometimes.
Yes and when it's wrong we can correct it without being called a kafir.
Scientist reveal the truth without claims of divine authority. Their claims can be examined and refuted. A prophet however is untouchable.
Therefore I don't think God would ever send prophets. Imagine if Einstien said "E=mc2 and whoever denies this is a kafir and an enemy of Allah".But we are perfectly ok when Quran makes such assertions. I thought truth was evident.
I feel I have firm knowledge of existence of the Creator. Please see the following
Good. I have no problem with God. I have a problem with the God of the Quran.
I thought I had the "perspective" defense for the setting of sun discrepancy but the video blows that defense out of the water and utterly destroys it! I am speechless hmm wow
And they won't, not without some serious mental gymnastics.
No wonder no one here has been able to refute it. Instead I see obvious evasion tactics used by at least one poster.
Yes I will deal with them in due course. First I need to create that spark of skepticism, otherwise it's a waste of time.
Wow, amazing analogy. I have firm belief and evidence that the true infinite Creator has unconditional love for ALL CREATION and no matter how many mistakes you make, it will always give you another chance and make sure you make it to your destination.
Yes, my brother .... that's real mercy and love.
May the infinite Creator guide us all to the truth.
Amen.
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sometimes its better to look around before cross the road.... )
now look around again... before and after 4153 all of you... brothers and sisters...
4152 Say, ?Think If this (revelation) is from God, and then you reject it! Who is further astray than one who stubbornly opposes it?? tempt
What if it's not from God. Then surely who stubbornly sticks to it is astray.
4153 Soon, shall We show them Our signs in the utmost Horizons and within themselves until it becomes obvious to them that this Qur?an is certainly the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is Witness to all things (including this proclamation)? within themselves signs(ayat) i already describe .. the ayats regarding horizons and stuff like 2130 big bang exapanding universe and so on is also need to be ponder... but either way the discoveries of these signs what mention in quran regarding both claims are successfully achieved...
Dude, there is no big bang in the Quran. Quran plagiarizes ancient Sumerian beliefs.
A little bit of research will show you that.
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their Lord; but He is Encompassing over all things.
may God bless us wisdom to understand some things which are not really difficult ... hail
Amen.
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Beautiful. And for what crime must the kafir be hated? Is it that he doesn't share your belief?
Yes it is beautiful, it would be an evil book if it did not condemn all the kafirs.
red you said you read and studied the quran, so this should not be a difficult question to answer for yourself.
blue Is it that you answer your own questions for others with what you like to hear?