Faith no more

imrankhawaja

well come back to the topic mr fath no more..

look at my reply 79 in response of what you claim that quran is plagarised... logical and decent discussions plz ... if you approach emotional way it wont help you... emotions hold no water in the field of reality...

a brotherly advise

truthseeker11

Peace FaithNoMore,

For the purpose of our discussion

CQ = current text of the quran
OQ = original text of the quran

This is of vital importance, unless anyone can prove beyond any doubt that CQ = OQ (i.e. they are 100% identical). Additionally, whenever CQ mentions "the quran", in my understanding that refers to OQ (it is obvious that when the quran was revealed, "the quran" referred to that original positive channeling which is protected in lawh mahfouz - 8521-22). Therefore, all the "preservation" verses (159, 4142 etc.) refer to OQ in my understanding, and not to CQ, otherwise it will just be a logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

author=FaithNoMore link=topic=9608852.msg395125#msg395125 date=1473246774]
Yes I am a muslim according to you and I appreciate that.

Brother, I believe that you are a muslim even according to CQ also!

4914 The nomads said "aamana"/"we believe." Say "you have not believed; but you should say "aslamna"/"we have made peace", for belief has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says "I am from "al-muslimeen"/those who have made peace."

Do you see "the quran" or "our revelations" anywhere in 4133?

So if you accept the existence of the Creator and invite to the Creator and do good deeds, you are a "muslim"/peacemaker even according to CQ.

I am kafir according to the Quran for simple crime that I say it is not the word of God, but the work of man.
That makes me lowest of lows. Worst than a believing murderer rapist scumbag.

You are not a "kafir" if you don't cover/conceal the truth after being 100% certain that it is the truth. For example, I am 100% certain of existence of the Creator. Now if I start going around telling everyone there is no Creator, I will be concealing or covering the truth and that would be "kufr".

Do you have proof that CQ = OQ in its entirety with 100% certainty? Additionally, are you 100% certain that CQ is "word of God" in its entirety? Not believing in CQ as 100% word of God cannot be "kufr" because you are not covering or concealing the truth after being 100% certain of it. "Kufr" is to cover/conceal the truth after being certain that it is the truth.

Why would the quran itself tell us that its truth will be verified through signs in the horizons and within ourselves (4153), if just the revelations present in the quran were sufficient for that verification?

Why would the quran itself tell us to use our mind/reason (482, 2368, 3829), and appeal to our inner compass/intuition (3030) and ask us for verification through knowledge (1736), if just the revelations present in the quran were sufficient for that verification?

Actually, in my understanding, if someone uses one's mind/reason, inner compass, knowledge and truths in the horizons and within oneself (as indicated in the quran), and arrives at the conclusion about a particular verse in CQ that it cannot be the truth, and therefore must not have been present in the protected OQ, and that person still upholds that it is the truth and "word of God", then that person will be a "kafir" for covering/concealing the truth after having been certain that it is not the truth, even though that person claims to believe in the quran!

But you can study it as a historian. You can ask yourself why people fabricated hadith. What was the inspiration for Sharia.
How was the mindset of the early muslims shaped. You will see the road goes back to the Quran.

The road goes back not to OQ but to CQ. There is indisputable and unequivocal evidence in the form of Sanaa manuscripts that shows possible tampering of OQ most likely very shortly after revelation. So that fabricated history and the mindset goes to whatever the product of tampering was, shortly after revelation of OQ.

Please also study the following to see how they tried to destroy OQ

http//www.inthenameofallah.org/Codices%20of%20the%20Quran.html

Aren't we creating a new tafseer here on this forum?

Agreed. That is why I keep stressing everyone to use the "quranic methodology" for verification of the truth for themselves instead of blindly believing/trusting other's "tafseer", and be patient and wait for the infinite Creator to explain everything directly to oneself

7516 Do not move your tongue with it to hasten it.
7517 It is for us to gather it into its Qur'an.
7518 Thus, when we read it, you shall follow such a Qur'an.
7519 Then it is for us to explain it.

Agreed. Although 262 is abrogated by 385. The Quran is in two parts. Meccan verses and Medinan verses.

No brother, it is not abrogated. 385 is about "islam" (peacemaking, state of being and not a religion) and Abraham, Moses, Jesus were all "muslimeen", without ever having read the quran. The basic message was the same, but OQ is different from the previous messages in some details such as narratives about Muhammad, Zayd, the Romans etc. So the "islam" mentioned in CQ was present way before OQ was revealed. "Whoever follows other than "islam" as "deen"" in 385 does not and cannot refer to only those after revelation of OQ.

Abraham was a "muslim"/peacemaker (small m, common noun, adjective) and not a proper name "Muslim" (capital M, proper noun) follower of a proper name religion "Islam". Those proper name words never even existed in his language.

2132 And Abraham enjoined his sons and Jacob "O my sons, God has selected the system for you, so do not die except you are MUSLIMOON/peacemakers."

367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nazarene, but he was a monotheist MUSLIMAN/peacemaker; he was not of the polytheists.

Moses was a "muslim"/peacemaker

1084 And Moses said "O my people, if you believe in God, then put your trust in him if you are MUSLIMEEN/peacemakers."

Jesus was a "muslim"/peacemaker

352 So when Jesus felt their rejection, he said "Who are my supporters to God?" The disciples said "We are the supporters of God, we believe in God and we bear witness that we are MUSLIMOON/peacemakers."

Meccan verses are peaceful, because Mohamed was weak. As soon as he gained power in Medina the violent intolerant verses came.

In CQ not in OQ, unless you can prove CQ = OQ. Also the "Meccan" versus "Medinan" verse is a fabrication unless you can prove with certainty that a verse is "Meccan" versus "Medinan". Also the currently accepted "revelation order" is a fabrication in my opinion.

Look at his life, one wife in Mecca vs many in Medina. The guy flipped. Classic example of how power corrupts.

The multiple wives verses are also troubling for me. I would love to see if OQ had the same verses and they were not a later addition to justify the misogynistic attitude of the corrupters.

Brother, how many lives have these verses ruined. Why would God put a "wife beating" verse knowing that it would be abused, and wait 1400 years to reveal it's true meaning by Quranists.

He coud have easliy said "admonish them, leave them but never ever beat them". He didn't, because it's not from God.

I think the same verse in OQ was possibly tampered with later on by the misogynistic discriminatory corrupters who destroyed OQ. CQ clearly shows discrimination towards women by having a different recommendation for men versus women in 434 and 4128. Why not "abandon the men's beds" and "dharaba" the men also for the same fear of "nushuz" in 4128 instead of just a nice "reconciliation"? No one has ever been able to refute this blatant discrimination.

I called critics kafir and misundestood their motives.

I also misunderstood their posts when I first read them years ago because of my narrow mindedness, dogmatic preconceptions and biases, and not using my mind/reason/logic, intuition, knowledge and truths in the horizons and within ourselves. Now when I read those same posts I see how right they were! They could not have been "kafir" because they were trying to make others aware of the truth, not cover/conceal it!

Therefore I don't think God would ever send prophets. Imagine if Einstien said "E=mc2 and whoever denies this is a kafir and an enemy of Allah".

IMO the true God would never say that anyone who denies its message is an enemy of God. What harm can come to God by denying its message?

In my opinion, the channeling from the infinite Creator never stops and is not limited only to "prophets". The infinite Creator constantly communicates to us from within, we just have to start listening (through meditation or salat etc.). In my understanding, salat for the Creator is a close connection and intimate 2 way communication with the infinite Creator, and not just a "prayer" as used in the quran (1187).

Additionally, positive higher dimensional entities in service to the infinite Creator (similar to Gabriel), keep channeling positive messages to people so that up to date truth is available to everyone in every language.

144 And we have not sent any messenger except in the language of his people, so he may clarify for them .........................

1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

So where is the message in English language?

It was one of these positive channelings by positive higher dimensional entities to a group of people in 1980's that changed my life and enabled me to finally discover the truth. The amazing thing is, I accidentally discovered that message through a thread on this forum in past by a well respected poster!

The entire message is about oneness of the infinite Creator who has unconditional love for all creation, and the concept of repercussions to one's actions, doing good deeds, and spiritual development and evolution. It tells us that the same message was sent to past messengers such as Moses etc., which was corrupted by negative service to self entities later on. For the first time in life something made perfect sense to me and resonated deeply with me using the quranic methodology of verification.

If interested, I would love to share that amazing message (and other positive messages of truth I have come across that say the same thing) with you and you can verify it for yourself.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Burden of proof is not on the one who makes a negative claim but on the one who makes a positive claim. For example

CLAIM A = "the current text of the quran is not from God in its entirety".
CLAIM B = "the current text of the quran is from God in its entirety".

The burden of proof will be on the one making claim B and not on the one making claim A.

Following is an excerpt from an article on burden of proof in order to clarify rules of a logical discussion

"The instances of circumstances that provide nuanced exceptions (see below) to the rule are so few and misleading to let it appear they nullify the rule that it is far better to just state that the burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist.

If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist."

"The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here's why to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities."

http//www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

Peace

hansolo

Unfortunately not. I only have another forum. But making a presentation on YouTube might not be a bad idea.

Man of Faith, if you WILL do a youtube video (Hopefully), please let us now

parvez_mushtaq

Yes it is beautiful, it would be an evil book if it did not condemn all the kafirs.

......

Very beautiful , Ben
seems he didn't know the definition of kafir

parvez_mushtaq

All your allegations are very old and formulated by Christian Zionist .i been reading these allegations from the days of yahoo chat rooms .hope they may find some new ones
only new thing in your post is you ,FNM
your story seems to be intersting , you were a Muslim and you were advocating all these allegations here on this forum ,suddenly you got enlightened by a Zionist and you became a kafir

can you define a kafir

Briefly, what broke me out of my hypnosis was the flat earth, geocentric cosmology of the Quran. Mountains cast down like anchors to stop the earth moving. Incorrect embryology and pretty much every statement about the natural world is wrong. Took me a while to get over my confirmation bias (20 years), but I got there.

same old wine
your problem is you have single out Quran and spared all other so called scriptures
i am not going to argue about the claims you have brought rather i want to highlight that if there are lot of materiel against Quran (which enlightened you) there are much more claims to prove that quran is correct .what you need is heart of a believer .for a believer it is a Mu?jizah
in other words , no one could prove that Quran is wrong .whenever some one like you comes with a allegations ,those allegations will be greeted with lot of explanations
this is the only scripture which stood all the tests
for instance ,when Darwin proved earth is much older than 6000 years no christian can argue or give an explanation to Darwin because they know Darwin is correct and their scripture is wrong

I read the Quran now and I see how hate filled it is and uses fear to shut down your rationality. I never noticed this before but the anti-jew sentiment is rabid. The God of the Quran is a lunatic. There isn?t a single positive Jewish story. Mohammed must have really hated the Jews and it explains Banu-Qurayza.

Again the same mistake ,you have single out Quran and spared all other scriptures
the realty is ,Jews enjoyed better position under Muslims ,they were always treated badly by Christians right through the history .for more details read my posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608768.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608851.0

Quran never addresses women once. They are always addressed as property of men, even when it comes to their menses. 3195 was only revealed when the wives of the prophet complained why God does not mention women. I know you don?t like referring to books outside Quran, so look at 581. Clearly Mohammed is making shit up in response to women complaining. There are many more instances of just-in-time revelations.

lol , this is ridiculous
Quran liberated women.
even is US ,the law for women applying for divorce was amended in 1930's .

.....anyway ....welcome back welcome

LastDay3

Salaam/Peace F-N-M,

this was the invitation I have sent to you in my previous post,
here again

Salaam/Peace F-N-M,

welcome to the Forum.

if you have already truly learned real Math and Science, that's really Good News, dear Friend.

because if you are a totally truthful and sincere Person, in your heart,
when/if you clearly witness each of these Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT here,

you may wholeheartedly repent and return to your LORD,
and The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful LORD will accept your repentance
and will admit you again among/into HIS Servants, totally Pure and absolutely Blessed,
by HIS such Immense Grace and Compassion here

=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76

The Most Essential 5 MIRACLES
with regard to the Textual Design of QURAN TESTAMENT here, first of all

1 Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf042.html

2 Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf043.html

3 Fundamental Miracle of "ODD" & "EVEN" in QURAN TESTAMENT right here now =89/3-5
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf040.html

4 Superbly "114" Chapters & "6234" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf047.html

5 Superbly "114" Chapters & "6234" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf048.html

And Then

The Most Essential 5 MIRACLES
with regard to the Scientific Accuracy of QURAN TESTAMENT here, first of all

1 Awesomely Sent-Down "IRON" MIRACLE, right here now =57/25
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf055.html

2 CHROMOSOMES of "Man & Woman" MIRACLE, right here now =41/53
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf063.html

3 ATOMIC (=Proton & Neutron & Electron) MIRACLE, right here now =54/49
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf056.html

4 "Speed of LIGHT" foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT =14/1
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf050.html

5 "Dark ENERGY" foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT =25/6
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf052.html

these are not Rashad Khalifa's works, these are totally new and absolutely real
most Superb and matchless Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT,

so if you are a sincere Person who truly "learned real Math and Science" (as you claim above),
then please, clearly see each and every of those Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES above,
and then let me know if you have any question or objection therein, first of all.

But if you do not do this but instead try to ignore and overlook them with any flimsy excuse here,
it will be an enough evidence for me that you are not a sincere Person, in your heart, at all, and you are not an earnest Truth-Seeker, at all,

but if you have the courage to do this, and if you are brave enough to get into a truthful Discussion with me one on one,
here in this thread or in any other thread, you may wish to start,

then I will clearly and unmistakably prove to you why

there is absolutely and only One God (=AL-LAH),

and why

HE is The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful, in all of HIS Words & Judgments,

from the Eternity to the Eternity.

The Immense Mercy and Forgiveness of AL-LAH will absolutely embrace and save you,
and HE will thus make you totally Pure and absolutely Blessed again,
when/if you wholeheartedly repent and return to HIM now,
even after having thus been provoked against HIM by Iblees/Satan's army (=6/112-113),

====================
6- O Human, who/what have provoked you against your LORD?

QURAN TESTAMENT 82/6

====================
70- As for the one who repents and believes and does good works, for those AL-LAH will transform (even) their past-sins into Credits,
for AL-LAH is Best-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.

71- Because whoever repents, and does good works, then he/she repents towards AL-LAH as his/her repentance fully accepted.

QURAN TESTAMENT 25/70-71

Remain in peace/salaam.

dear fellow/friend F-N-M,

I have no affiliation with any Religious Denomination/Congregation, at all,

I am just an Individual who always sincerely and wholeheartedly seeking The Truth,

I know the Perfect Arabic Language of QURAN TESTAMENT (I read it always in its original Arabic for over 20 years),

when I get into a truthful Discussion with anyone (whether he/she is an Atheist or Agnostic or Deist, or Jew or Christian or Arab,
or Hindu or Buddhist or Whomever else)
I never insult and never verbally hurt my opponent/s, even if they were to start to insult and verbally hurt me --(see all my discussions
in my previous posts in this Site),

so you are totally safe, and have nothing to lose, have nothing to fear, my dear Fellow-Friend,
so please, take your time and clearly see each and every of those

Awesome Mathematic/Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT above,

and then let me know if you have any question or objection therein, first of all.

Then I am ready to start a new thread here and will immediately invite you for a Truthful Discussion, to proceed even further therein, perfectly,
to clearly and unmistakably find The Truth, together,

I will ask the dear Admins/Mods and all dear Members of this Forum here not to participate but just follow the all friendly and Truthful Discussion
between you and me, one on one.

I'm looking forward to hear from you.

Remain in peace/salaam.

Rekkd

I am sorry to hear you were punished. Parents abuse and sometimes even kill their children "out of love".

I was never punished. When I made a mistake, my parents guided me to the right way. They used logic and reason to convince me.
Sometimes they let me make mistakes, because they trusted me to find the right way.

Thank you ... let that Quranic language flow through you.

Lol you twist the meaning and the message for your cause.

Cerberus

He has done a great job at playing the "offensive" and forcing everyone else to play the "defensive".

I also see huge effort made by some people here trying to explain to him things...I'm pretty sure he isn't going to read any of that as I wouldn't if I hated the Quran as much as he did and came here to bash only.

Bender

I did answer it. Quran has no tolerance for people with different beliefs. Therefore I have no tolerance for the Quran.

RED Ah I see, you are in a fight with the quran.
You can't win, that book has no feelings nope

Wakas

FNM,

I have read your arguments to-date on this topic (Zul Qarnain) and have selected these videos especially for you

I dont recall discussing much about Zul Qarnain on this forum. Are you perhaps referring to 1886 - is that one of your strongest Quran errors?

I'll be honest with you, I cant be bothered checking this thread regularly. If you actually do come up with what I asked PM me so I dont miss it.

Until then, peace out.

LastDay3

I also see huge effort made by some people here trying to explain to him things...
I'm pretty sure he isn't going to read any of that as I wouldn't if I hated the Quran as much as he did and came here to bash only.

Salaam/Peace Cerberus,

if F-N-M is truly a sincere and truthful Person, in his mind & heart, (as he claims above he is)
he has a perfect chance to seek The Truth here,
and be redeemed by The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful AL-LAH,
in such a Wonderful Manner here

QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76

but if he is a liar who has already decided to keep himself firmly locked in his ignorance, no matter what,
he can only blame himself for his misery.

I want to see and understand it, first, with hundred percent certainty what is in his mind & heart.

Remain in peace/salaam.

Bender