Faith no more
-
Peace everyone,
Burden of proof is not on the one who makes a negative claim but on the one who makes a positive claim. For example
CLAIM A = "the current text of the quran is not from God in its entirety".
CLAIM B = "the current text of the quran is from God in its entirety".The burden of proof will be on the one making claim B and not on the one making claim A.
Following is an excerpt from an article on burden of proof in order to clarify rules of a logical discussion
"The instances of circumstances that provide nuanced exceptions (see below) to the rule are so few and misleading to let it appear they nullify the rule that it is far better to just state that the burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist.
If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist."
"The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here's why to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities."
http//www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm
Peace
-
Yes it is beautiful, it would be an evil book if it did not condemn all the kafirs.
......
Very beautiful , Ben
seems he didn't know the definition of kafir -
All your allegations are very old and formulated by Christian Zionist .i been reading these allegations from the days of yahoo chat rooms .hope they may find some new ones
only new thing in your post is you ,FNM
your story seems to be intersting , you were a Muslim and you were advocating all these allegations here on this forum ,suddenly you got enlightened by a Zionist and you became a kafircan you define a kafir
Briefly, what broke me out of my hypnosis was the flat earth, geocentric cosmology of the Quran. Mountains cast down like anchors to stop the earth moving. Incorrect embryology and pretty much every statement about the natural world is wrong. Took me a while to get over my confirmation bias (20 years), but I got there.
same old wine
your problem is you have single out Quran and spared all other so called scriptures
i am not going to argue about the claims you have brought rather i want to highlight that if there are lot of materiel against Quran (which enlightened you) there are much more claims to prove that quran is correct .what you need is heart of a believer .for a believer it is a Mu?jizah
in other words , no one could prove that Quran is wrong .whenever some one like you comes with a allegations ,those allegations will be greeted with lot of explanations
this is the only scripture which stood all the tests
for instance ,when Darwin proved earth is much older than 6000 years no christian can argue or give an explanation to Darwin because they know Darwin is correct and their scripture is wrongI read the Quran now and I see how hate filled it is and uses fear to shut down your rationality. I never noticed this before but the anti-jew sentiment is rabid. The God of the Quran is a lunatic. There isn?t a single positive Jewish story. Mohammed must have really hated the Jews and it explains Banu-Qurayza.
Again the same mistake ,you have single out Quran and spared all other scriptures
the realty is ,Jews enjoyed better position under Muslims ,they were always treated badly by Christians right through the history .for more details read my posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608768.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608851.0Quran never addresses women once. They are always addressed as property of men, even when it comes to their menses. 3195 was only revealed when the wives of the prophet complained why God does not mention women. I know you don?t like referring to books outside Quran, so look at 581. Clearly Mohammed is making shit up in response to women complaining. There are many more instances of just-in-time revelations.
lol , this is ridiculous
Quran liberated women.
even is US ,the law for women applying for divorce was amended in 1930's ......anyway ....welcome back welcome
-
Salaam/Peace F-N-M,
this was the invitation I have sent to you in my previous post,
here againSalaam/Peace F-N-M,
welcome to the Forum.
if you have already truly learned real Math and Science, that's really Good News, dear Friend.
because if you are a totally truthful and sincere Person, in your heart,
when/if you clearly witness each of these Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT here,you may wholeheartedly repent and return to your LORD,
and The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful LORD will accept your repentance
and will admit you again among/into HIS Servants, totally Pure and absolutely Blessed,
by HIS such Immense Grace and Compassion here=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76
The Most Essential 5 MIRACLES
with regard to the Textual Design of QURAN TESTAMENT here, first of all1 Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf042.html2 Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf043.html3 Fundamental Miracle of "ODD" & "EVEN" in QURAN TESTAMENT right here now =89/3-5
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf040.html4 Superbly "114" Chapters & "6234" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf047.html5 Superbly "114" Chapters & "6234" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf048.htmlAnd Then
The Most Essential 5 MIRACLES
with regard to the Scientific Accuracy of QURAN TESTAMENT here, first of all1 Awesomely Sent-Down "IRON" MIRACLE, right here now =57/25
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf055.html2 CHROMOSOMES of "Man & Woman" MIRACLE, right here now =41/53
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf063.html3 ATOMIC (=Proton & Neutron & Electron) MIRACLE, right here now =54/49
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf056.html4 "Speed of LIGHT" foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT =14/1
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf050.html5 "Dark ENERGY" foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT =25/6
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf052.htmlthese are not Rashad Khalifa's works, these are totally new and absolutely real
most Superb and matchless Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT,so if you are a sincere Person who truly "learned real Math and Science" (as you claim above),
then please, clearly see each and every of those Mathematic and Scientific MIRACLES above,
and then let me know if you have any question or objection therein, first of all.But if you do not do this but instead try to ignore and overlook them with any flimsy excuse here,
it will be an enough evidence for me that you are not a sincere Person, in your heart, at all, and you are not an earnest Truth-Seeker, at all,but if you have the courage to do this, and if you are brave enough to get into a truthful Discussion with me one on one,
here in this thread or in any other thread, you may wish to start,then I will clearly and unmistakably prove to you why
there is absolutely and only One God (=AL-LAH),
and why
HE is The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful, in all of HIS Words & Judgments,
from the Eternity to the Eternity.
The Immense Mercy and Forgiveness of AL-LAH will absolutely embrace and save you,
and HE will thus make you totally Pure and absolutely Blessed again,
when/if you wholeheartedly repent and return to HIM now,
even after having thus been provoked against HIM by Iblees/Satan's army (=6/112-113),====================
6- O Human, who/what have provoked you against your LORD?QURAN TESTAMENT 82/6
====================
70- As for the one who repents and believes and does good works, for those AL-LAH will transform (even) their past-sins into Credits,
for AL-LAH is Best-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.71- Because whoever repents, and does good works, then he/she repents towards AL-LAH as his/her repentance fully accepted.
QURAN TESTAMENT 25/70-71
Remain in peace/salaam.
dear fellow/friend F-N-M,
I have no affiliation with any Religious Denomination/Congregation, at all,
I am just an Individual who always sincerely and wholeheartedly seeking The Truth,
I know the Perfect Arabic Language of QURAN TESTAMENT (I read it always in its original Arabic for over 20 years),
when I get into a truthful Discussion with anyone (whether he/she is an Atheist or Agnostic or Deist, or Jew or Christian or Arab,
or Hindu or Buddhist or Whomever else)
I never insult and never verbally hurt my opponent/s, even if they were to start to insult and verbally hurt me --(see all my discussions
in my previous posts in this Site),so you are totally safe, and have nothing to lose, have nothing to fear, my dear Fellow-Friend,
so please, take your time and clearly see each and every of thoseAwesome Mathematic/Scientific MIRACLES of QURAN TESTAMENT above,
and then let me know if you have any question or objection therein, first of all.
Then I am ready to start a new thread here and will immediately invite you for a Truthful Discussion, to proceed even further therein, perfectly,
to clearly and unmistakably find The Truth, together,I will ask the dear Admins/Mods and all dear Members of this Forum here not to participate but just follow the all friendly and Truthful Discussion
between you and me, one on one.I'm looking forward to hear from you.
Remain in peace/salaam.
-
I am sorry to hear you were punished. Parents abuse and sometimes even kill their children "out of love".
I was never punished. When I made a mistake, my parents guided me to the right way. They used logic and reason to convince me.
Sometimes they let me make mistakes, because they trusted me to find the right way.Thank you ... let that Quranic language flow through you.
Lol you twist the meaning and the message for your cause.
-
He has done a great job at playing the "offensive" and forcing everyone else to play the "defensive".
I also see huge effort made by some people here trying to explain to him things...I'm pretty sure he isn't going to read any of that as I wouldn't if I hated the Quran as much as he did and came here to bash only.
-
FNM,
I have read your arguments to-date on this topic (Zul Qarnain) and have selected these videos especially for you
I dont recall discussing much about Zul Qarnain on this forum. Are you perhaps referring to 1886 - is that one of your strongest Quran errors?
I'll be honest with you, I cant be bothered checking this thread regularly. If you actually do come up with what I asked PM me so I dont miss it.
Until then, peace out.
-
I also see huge effort made by some people here trying to explain to him things...
I'm pretty sure he isn't going to read any of that as I wouldn't if I hated the Quran as much as he did and came here to bash only.Salaam/Peace Cerberus,
if F-N-M is truly a sincere and truthful Person, in his mind & heart, (as he claims above he is)
he has a perfect chance to seek The Truth here,
and be redeemed by The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful AL-LAH,
in such a Wonderful Manner hereQURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76
but if he is a liar who has already decided to keep himself firmly locked in his ignorance, no matter what,
he can only blame himself for his misery.I want to see and understand it, first, with hundred percent certainty what is in his mind & heart.
Remain in peace/salaam.
-
Peace everyone,
Burden of proof is not on the one who makes a negative claim but on the one who makes a positive claim. For example
CLAIM A = "the current text of the quran is not from God in its entirety".
CLAIM B = "the current text of the quran is from God in its entirety".The burden of proof will be on the one making claim B and not on the one making claim A.
Following is an excerpt from an article on burden of proof in order to clarify rules of a logical discussion
"The instances of circumstances that provide nuanced exceptions (see below) to the rule are so few and misleading to let it appear they nullify the rule that it is far better to just state that the burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist.
If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist."
"The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here's why to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities."
http//www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm
Peace
I don't agree, I think the burden of proof is on the one who claims, positive or negative.
-
1886 Until he reached the setting of the sun, and he found it setting at a black water, and he found near it a people. We said, "O Two Eras, either you are to punish, or you are to do them good.
till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness
The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters. (The local people, given to wrongdoing, fought against him and lost.) We said, "O Zul-Qarnain! Either punish or be kind to them."
now
a common pharse for a story in pure grammitical way...
mr x reached at a place... it appears to mr x sun is setting in the dark sea...
dosent mean sun really set in dark sea... its appears to mr x and zulqarnain that its setting there..
incorrect sentence should be like this...
mr x claim the place of setting sun in dark sea... instead of rotation with respect to the view of horizon... )
-
I did answer it. Quran has no tolerance for people with different beliefs. Therefore I have no tolerance for the Quran.
according to surah al-kafirun, the quran has great tolerance for kafirs - just let them be - and thats based on standard sectarian translation.
-
I don't agree, I think the burden of proof is on the one who claims, positive or negative.
But this is a "hard to prove" topic, so both parties have a burden of proof. You cannot exactly in a scientific way prove that Quran is from God, but you cannot also disprove that Quran is not from God. In the end it is a matter of interpretation by the individual whether the book is from God or is not from God. It is just for each person to put forth their arguments why and why not, and then for each person to evaluate the arguments.
And "burden of proof" is a human invention. Someone decided that there should be "burden of proof". Many people say they shun what mankind, particularly since this is from academic sources, has invented, but yet accepting this about "burden of proof". Who cares about burden of proof?
But then again, about whether Quran is from God or not from God is esoteric to know, so it is not very likely that anyone can prove anything concretely except if there started emerging Quran manuscripts out of nowhere (like teleportation) in front of a camera and a bunch of people and a voice said out loud that "this book is indeed authentic", then you have better concrete evidence. That is what is evidence, it must be able to be recorded. But if mankind and science can invent teleportation then perhaps not even Quran manuscripts emerging out of the blue can prove Quran's nature.
No source that you have in the world can prove concretely whether Quran is from God or not from God. Everything is possible to have been mere fabrications.
But, from the book's contents you can prove whether the teachings are spiritually improving by testing, and that you can do and document your progress being able to be used as empirical evidence.
Unfortunately I do not see the teachings of the sectarian interpretation of Quran as particularly spiritually enlightening since some of the people discussing in this thread call for condemnation of so-called kafirs and only speaking in a negative sense only beating down on 'Faith No More' like instinctively animals defending their territory instead of returning something substantial which could be of value to him. If he says something added in the sectarian interpretation of the Quran and calls it illogical then this is a good point and one could always start reflecting upon what it is they read just like he wants others to do.
I am sure 'Faith No More' feels better off spiritually after abandoning these teachings today and then have returned to this forum because since he felt he feels so much better today he thinks that he could help others feel the same. I am sure that his intentions are completely sincere in that regard and are wholehearted.
It is like I did, 2-3 years ago I was standing before two choices, either would I abandon Quran (and probably continue to research more on the Gospels/Injeel) or continue researching on what the heck is the problem with Quran and why the teachings are so primitive. I chose the latter, but 'Faith No More' chose the first. We are similar in the way we attack Quran in some way. I am attacking the interpreters and the interpretation of it while 'Faith No More' with less meat on his legs is attacking the entire scripture, but I am sure he mostly attacks what it says in which he does not know better, and no shame on him. I do not rebuke him for not discovering that the medieval interpreters fabricated an unrelated context on top of an otherwise innocent one. These interpreters' understanding is so established today people take it dogmatically.
I know through the Bible that Quran is proclaimed in it. In the writings of Yese'aye (Isaiah) Quran's case is written out clearly. It is therein written as being something which needs to be put in order, which I interpret as being the state of how Quran is today, completely nonsensical due to a faulty interpretation. If that is true, Quran was prophesied, circa a millennium before the sect Islam hijacked Quran, to be a book requiring to be "cleansed".
If I understand 'Faith No More's case he feels the teachings of Quran as they appear to him to be highly spiritually detrimental to people and this is why he decided to go online to make people aware of that.
Be well
Amenuel -
No source that you have in the world can prove concretely whether Quran is from God or not from God. Everything is possible to have been mere fabrications.
Salaam/Peace Man of Faith,
MATHEMATICS can absolutely prove if a Source is a man made source, or of Heavenly Origin.
(*you can witness it in my previous post.)It is like I did, 2-3 years ago I was standing before two choices, either would I abandon Quran (and probably continue to research more on the Gospels/Injeel)
or continue researching on what the heck is the problem with Quran and why the teachings are so primitive.
I chose the latter, but 'Faith No More' chose the first.Be well
AmenuelThere is no problem in QURAN, its Teachings are Absolutely Perfect and Most Advanced.
The problem is only in your own mind, my dear Fellow/Friend, for that reason you are constantly fabricating baseless speculations/assumptions
and repeating them in various forms again and againas if somehow the QURAN would someday fit into your own fundamentally mistaken/deluded/wrongful agenda,
but it never fits and will never fit, you may continue to deceive yourself and a few gullible who would blindly follow you, as long as you wish,
or you may truly repent and return to AL-LAH,
and you may attain to Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Happiness, forever.
QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76
Remain in peace/salaam.
-
Periodically, fromm time to time we get in the forum a person (whether it is always or some ime he ame with a differentnick or not, I don't know) a person who says hat he was a former forum member but that now he has seen better and does not believe in h Qur'an and hen undetkes, for our benefit, I suppose, to ter tdown all our false beliefs.
And he does so that he takes as unshakable truth all he deffects usually adscribed to he Qur'an by foes or friends and which are the most typical false aributions to Qur'an that Qur'an believers usually reject while rescueing while rayig to get the best understanding the ost faithful o he text of the Qur'an.
I happes every so often, so mmuch so hat I feel like giving it he name of
3eid al kafir
because i return faithfully wha, every year? every somany months, and it is always the same. hey look like a photocopy. And the aim I still am nno sure rescue us? Make us look bad as idiots in search of the hidden trasure of the annunakis?
No doubt , to a certain extent it enlives the forum little. For those of us who have been here long though it looses interest and luster and increases distrust of he genuinity of the the perso or personnns and the endeavour.
My commendations to those who take the time to answer these 3eid al kafirs guests. May be some of them cn also answer Why do these Qur'an obssessed 3eid al kafirers do it. Do they get inn each round so mny converts? They have an unshakable hope hat some time they will make a convert to anti Qur'an?
Salaam
-
If you actually do come up with what I asked PM me so I don't miss it.
Why are you being so obtuse? My first claim is presented in this video presentation.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y
Do you now want me to transcribe a 26min video.
If you don't have a rebuttal just say so.
If you succeed in rebutting this claim then we can move on to the next one.
-
1886 Until he reached the setting of the sun, and he found it setting at a black water, and he found near it a people. We said, "O Two Eras, either you are to punish, or you are to do them good.
till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness
The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters. (The local people, given to wrongdoing, fought against him and lost.) We said, "O Zul-Qarnain! Either punish or be kind to them."
now
a common pharse for a story in pure grammitical way...
mr x reached at a place... it appears to mr x sun is setting in the dark sea...
dosent mean sun really set in dark sea... its appears to mr x and zulqarnain that its setting there..
incorrect sentence should be like this...
mr x claim the place of setting sun in dark sea... instead of rotation with respect to the view of horizon... )
The word "appeared" does not occur in these verses. Have you checked the Arabic or you inventing your own tafseer.
Also he doesn't reach the "setting of sun" that's a verbal phrase.
1886 uses a noun phrase. Maghrib-al-Shams which means setting-place of the sun.
An example of a verbal phrase can be found in 20130 Tuluay-al-Shams (rising of the sun)
Check this presentation and educate yourself.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y
-
according to surah al-kafirun, the quran has great tolerance for kafirs - just let them be - and thats based on standard sectarian translation.
seriously , sura 109 - is that everything the Quran has to say about the kafir.
That's a meccan sura by the way. The tone of the Quran changes.
What if Obama said. "Muslims are free to follow their faith, but the curse of God is upon them. They are the worst of people. Don't take friends from among them"
Would you say that's o.k?
The Quran repeatedly dehumanizes non-believers. That is the pretext for every genocide in human history.
These verses incite violence and prejudicial action. There is very strong causal link demonstrated by 1400 years of history and present day.
-
I am sure 'Faith No More' feels better off spiritually after abandoning these teachings today and then have returned to this forum because since he felt he feels so much better today he thinks that he could help others feel the same. I am sure that his intentions are completely sincere in that regard and are wholehearted.
If I understand 'Faith No More's case he feels the teachings of Quran as they appear to him to be highly spiritually detrimental to people and this is why he decided to go online to make people aware of that.
True and appreciated. Man of faith.
I'm sorry but this might come across as harsh. group
Your view is a niche view and will never be accepted by the 1.6 billion Muslims. History has shown this. You are not the first to attempt this.
Also you are assuming that Quran is from God despite over whelming evidence (ref truthseeker's posts) that shows we can't even tell if it's from Mohammed.
There are much better books, evidence, ideas to help humanity live a better life.
What you seem to do is find or arrive at a good idea from your world experience today. You might read a book or look at scientific research and add your own personal bias to arrive at that idea.
The you try and force that idea into the Quran so that you can claim that the Quran knew about that idea first.
Never in the history of the Quran has it ever been on the right side of any moral argument. We always blame it on "interpretation" never the book itself.
For example take homosexuality.
Through research and real world observation you might determine that it's perfectly natural and o.k. Then you will go into the and Quran twist the Lot story and other verses.
Ignore history where necessary and say "Hey, the Quran is ok with gay sex".I did that...for many years. It's a disease of the mind. It's called cognitive dissonance.
You are prolonging the painful death of Islam (in fact all religions). It wants to die and be at peace with Thor and Zeus, but people like you won't let it be.
I want you to fully understand the role you are playing today in the suffering of the Muslim world just so that you can cling to your beliefs.
peace
