Gods "Arsh" - Throne

[good_logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

Brother, the logic of man can indeed be very deluded.

Prove to you?
I can only prove to me the things that I believe.
Some of my views contradict yours, but that is fine by me.I expect people to differ.
On that promised day, it will be clear to both of us.

Remember though, either me or you can be deluded if we hold contradictory views.

So until then, or until before that if GOD wills,I am willing to stay at peace with each other and discuss amicably.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Logic is logic. Logic cannot lie. But your logical ability can be flawed and then your reasoning is immediately seeming inconsistent. And then I mean inconsistent with sound logic. Even if Quran says something according to someone's interpretation it does not necessarily mean it holds water.

What I mean is, logic is universal and there is no different logic. The only thing preventing one from using sound logic is the lack of wisdom.

Be well
Amenuel

[good_logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

Wisdom can only be deduced/judged by others.

If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.

Again brother ,we differ on this one.

GOD bless you.
Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Man Of Faith.

Wisdom can only be deduced/judged by others.

If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.

Again brother ,we differ on this one.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Wisdom can be monitored by others, certainly, but if someone can employ sound logic in decisions this person is wise. Wisdom is about using what you have at hand in the best possible manner and in that it is linked to logic.

And now you jumped over to talk about wisdom when we were talking about logic. I said that one's ability to employ sound logic determines their wisdom.

Why is your conclusion?

If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.

Of course I do not need to say I am wise and I think I never did. It is for people to see if I am wise.

Be well
Amenuel

[huruf]

There re two words in the Qur'an that get translated as "Throne"

One is "3arsh", the other is "kursi", like in the famous ayat al kursi.

It would be interesting and enlightening finding the difference between both.

Salaam

[imrankhawaja]

even the kursi in 2 255 is something cannnot understandable...

the extension of that kursi spread/extend over heavens and earth... let say if universe is expanding at 10000 km per second the kursi is already exapnded so what speed we will apply to kursi... or do we really know how much area that kursi is holding now...

we dnt even know the first episode of lower heaven ,, every year a new updated version of telescope we are introducing to reach at the edge of universe... yes

but everytime a new episode is waiting for us ... and on other words God is saying thats it guys... thats what was ur last limit... come on guys update more versions ... height of supremacy ...

look at your own kursi cannot move it byself untill u will make it move...

the kursi is methphorical becoz , language /math/ distanse is unable to explain , the reality when there is something unexplainable then methaphor take a place to make you understand...

but even in methphorical sense can we really calculate the vastness of space... forget about the kursi... lol

in the end of ayatul kursi its written...

he dnt even tired of preserving and gaurding it... he is most high ,most great

say somebody to hold a chair for one minute then see he get tired within thirty seconds ...

[reel]

378 They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.

3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high (The exalted Assembly), that they had quarreled."

Think about a CEO. He doesn't need to occupy the highest floor of a building to show he is commanding his employees. I might be older than you, but that doesn't mean I am sitting somewhere up there.

Quarreled ? Who with who ? The command Up High . About what did they quarreled ? And why it is a great news for us ?

3870 It has not been revealed to me except that I am a clear warner."
Do note that revelations coming from up isn't how we humans perceive it. They came in Prophet's heart. If someone has the verse number of that it would be great if you post it here.

3875 He said "O Satan, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"

So Satan should have prostate before Adam, because he was not one of the Exalted. But we know that God says that the angels DID prostrate to Adam. Thus logically it can mean only one thing. That even the Angels are not one of those Exalted. Really interesting...

6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.

So who are the "Eight" who will carry The Throne of Our Lord above the angels ?

You see You are saying that God is everywhere and that the verses in the Quran which speak about the God as the Most High who Sits on the exalted Throne which is above the waters are just symbology for representing his power and rulership over everything. But what if it is the opposite?

Did you see the link I posted earlier? It explains throne is not exactly throne. Water is what we cannot live without. His dominion is above this water.

Exalted means powerful/of high position. Example
He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.5923
Exalted is He and high above what they say by great sublimity.1743

What if these verses are literal. And the fact that God is everywhere it means that he is omnipresent. He can see and hear everything. But doesnt mean that He is not Up there.

Note descends and encompass in the following verse
Allah (is) He Who created seven heavens and of the earth, (the) like of them. Descends the command between them that you may know that Allah (is) on every thing All-Powerful. And that, Allah indeed, encompasses all things (in) knowledge.6512

Don't we agree that we are in this controlled environment just like in a testing ground to see who is the best. When scientist make an experiment they don't interfere until the experiment is over right ? This can explain then why so much horror happens on this planet. Rape, Murder, Loss of health and etc.
Just look at the animal kingdom. Everything is made to consume each other. Dont you think is interesting ? There are animals designed in a way where they HAVE to kill another animal to get energy for survival. Dont you think this design is interesting. So to be able to prolong its days on this Earth the animal has to murder the other animal? As the batman movies say "You die a hero or live long enough to become the villain"

For example take The Stanford Prison Experiment. In this experiment they divided participants into two groups. Group 1. should have played the role of police officers and Group 2. should have played the role of the prisoners. And what you think happened ? The kind intelligent participants who got to play the role of the police officers became sadistic maniacs after couple of days of the 6-day experiment. Did the scientists interfere ? NO! Because the experiment wasn't finished.

Yes, its quite a controlled environment. If we follow the rabbit hole of Quran we will notice that we were evolved to avoid committing horrible acts. But the more men cling to earth the more they begin to get away from the true life purpose. We weren't supposed to be those animals who kill one another to survive. I believe they are here to teach us what we should not be doing.

[Anoushirvan]

By the way, Arsh doesn't mean throne.
It means something that keeps extending or aims at extending, like culture (social, religious), agriculture, or sovereignty, because sovereignty aims at extending.

For example, in verse 6141
"And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised"
Wa Huwa Al-Ladh 'Ansha'a Janntin Marshtin Wa Ghayra Marshtin

Because Arsh can mean sovereignty, it is translated as throne in indo-european languages like English or French.
But the word throne doesn't capture the concept of extension.

I agree with Brother Jafar that the view of universe in Qur'an probably reflects the conception of Ancient Israelites (so I discard any view that Qur'an announced modern discoveries).
But at the same time, I believe that Qur'an uses this physical conception to pass a spiritual message.

So my interpretation that God established His Arsh/Sovereignty over water is that He established the religious culture on knowledge (water usually symbolizes knowledge).

(You might want to try understanding then what verses 2740 to 2742 actually mean).

[Novice]

3870 It has not been revealed to me except that I am a clear warner."
Do note that revelations coming from up isn't how we humans perceive it. They came in Prophet's heart. If someone has the verse number of that it would be great if you post it here.

Salam reel

Are you referring to this verse 297

(

Say, if someone is an enemy to Jibra?il, it is he who has brought it down upon your heart by the permission of Allah, confirming what has been before it, and a guidance and good tidings to the believers.

[LastDay3]

Quran free-minds.org Translation

378 They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.

3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high (The exalted Assembly), that they had quarreled."

Quarreled ? Who with who ? The command Up High . About what did they quarreled ? And why it is a great news for us ?

Salaam/Peace Hansolo,

first of all, let us clearly see these most essential and important Verses above,
in its entirety, here

==========
6- We have adorned the lower universe with the decoration of exoplanets/stars (=kawakib).

7- And (We made it) guarded against every "rebellious (jinn) satan."

8- So, they (=i.e. those "(jinn) satans" = extraterrestrials who are totally unseen to human eye
because they are created of a "specific blend of fire energy" (="marijin min nar" =55/15) as/of/in dark energy or beyond
existing in our whole Universe therein 55/15 = 18/50 = 7/27)--

cannot listen to the HIGH ASSEMBLY (=i.e. ASSEMBLY under the Absolute Authority and Command of AL-LAH
specifically unto HIS Highest-Ranking "Eight" Angel Servants therein =69/17),

and they (=i.e. those "jinn satans" above) are repelled (within our whole Universe) from every side.

9- Outcasts, so theirs is a deterrent/lasting retribution.

10- And if anyone (of those "jinn satans" above) does succeed in snatching a glimpse (of Heavenly Information above) he is pursued
by a "piercing jet-of-light" (="shihaab thaqib&quot.

=so, we should clearly see these absolutely "piercing jets-of-light" (="shihaab thaqib&quot which are created by our Lord AL-LAH within our whole Universe
as they are constantly emitted especially by those Magnetars, Black Holes and Quasars therein,
in this amazing Scientific Documentary Movie here

How Universe Works Magnetars, Black Holes, Quasars and Pulsars Explained
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608813.0

QURAN TESTAMENT 37/6-10

And then, let us also clearly see these most essential and important Verses above,
in its entirety, here

==========
67- Say It is an awesome Information (=Naba, as we will clearly see it in Verse No. 88 here).

68- But you are (still) turning away from it.

69- Say There has not been (given) to me any knowledge with regard to the HIGH ASSEMBLY (=i.e. ASSEMBLY of those
Highest-Ranking "Eight" Angel Servants under the Absolute Authority and Command of AL-LAH therein =69/17),

when they are discussing --(how they will observe and carry out in the best manner all the Commandments of AL-LAH unto them therein).

(=yakhtasimoona may also thus refer to a normal/beneficial/useful discussion among intelligent (Human) beings here =3/44, or
also among intelligent (Angel) beings above =38/69)

70- It is absolutely being inspired to me that I am a clear Warner.

---

86- Say I ask of you no wage for this (Message), and I am not of (those) impostors.

87- It is but a "Reminder" (="Dhikr" "19" coded, most Superb and matchless "SYMMETRICAL MIRACLES"

which are specifically called as "Dhikr" / "Dhikra" here 39/23 = 74/26-30, 31) for the worlds.

88- So, you will come to know its Information (=Nabaahu) after awhile!

(=i.e. that Anticipated SMOKE and those imminent HEAVENLY REQUITALS thereafter

may thus come upon the Earth as the fulfillment of Information of this

"Reminder" (="Dhikr" / "Dhikra") above 38/"87"-88 = 44/10-"13"-14-16

QURAN TESTAMENT 38/67-70, 86-88

Remain in peace/salaam.

[imrankhawaja]

I agree with Brother Jafar that the view of universe in Qur'an probably reflects the conception of Ancient Israelites (so I discard any view that Qur'an announced modern discoveries).

actually i was not about to debate , i just wonder did you really read quran or you just listen the hearsy of people ...
if you really read it .. then you should have never claim a big thing without any proof..

quran is not a science text book , its a book of signs...

more than 1000 of these signs reflect about creation /science and stuff...

let say just for an example... i will ask a question from you, who told you about water cycle and when?

fit your answer there and then see its really talk about modern science or not... as i feel u did not focus on quran properly so i will make it easy to give references here...

The water cycle is described in several verses of the Quran, including 39, 757, 1317, 2548- 49, 3634, 509-11, 5668-70, 6730 and 8611 go through all of them...

?It is Allah Who sends The Winds, and they raise The Clouds then does He Spread them in the sky As He wills, and break them Into fragments, until thou seest Raindrops issue from the midst Thereof then when He has Made them reach such Of His servants as He wills, Behold, they do rejoice! 3048

In 1580, Bernard Palissy was the first man to describe the present day concept of ?water cycle?

if you will not satisfied with this single sign i can provide you the reference of all scientific facts of today which are clearly mention in that book more than 1400 years ago ...

[LastDay3]

sorry about this ( it will be posted in its entirety in the next reply, inshaAL-LAH.

==========
Our LORD, do not mind us when/if we forget or make mistakes; ......... (2/286)

pr

[LastDay3]

3875 He said "O Satan, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"

So Satan should have prostate before Adam, because he was not one of the Exalted. But we know that God says that the angels DID prostrate to Adam.
Thus logically it can mean only one thing. That even the Angels are not one of those Exalted. Really interesting...

Salaam/Peace Hansolo,

first of all, let us clearly see these most essential and important Verses above,
in its entirety, here

==========
71- Then your LORD said to the Angels Behold, I am about to create a human being from "clay" (=i.e. all "elements" present in earth "crust" therein).

72- And when I have fully formed him and blow into him from MY "Spirit" (="Roohee" "Message/Words" of AL-LAH here =42/52)
you shall fall prostrate before him!

73- And the Angels fell prostrate, all of them together,

74- Except Iblees/Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.

75- AL-LAH said O Iblees/Satan, what prevented you from prostrating before what I have created with MY "Two-Hands" (=i.e.
Absolute "Creative Powers" of AL-LAH thus to signify the essential "Symmetrical Design" = "left part & right part" of a human body
in this specific context therein 51/49 = 36/36 = 90/8-9-10).

Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those "despot-tyrants" (="aleen" like that Pharaoh who was described as
such a "despot-tyrant" = "alin" / "aleen" here 10/83 & 23/46 & 44/30-31)?

QURAN TESTAMENT 38/71-75

Remain in peace/salaam.

[LastDay3]

6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.

So who are the "Eight" who will carry The Throne of Our Lord above the angels ?

Salaam/Peace Hansolo,

so let us clearly see those most essential and important Verses above,
in its entirety, first of all, here

==========
15- That is the Day when the Inevitable-Event will come to pass.

16- And the Universe (=al-Samaau) will be rent asunder, and on that Day it will be flimsy.

17- And the Angels will be on its (=the whole Universe) borders;

and on that Day, above them "Eight" (Highest-Ranking Angel Servants) will be carrying the "Throne" of your LORD (=i.e.
will be carrying out the "Governing/Administrative Commands" of your LORD unto them therein =21/26-29)--

---

7- Those ---"Eight" (Highest-Ranking Angel Servants) above--- who carry the "Throne" (as we clearly see it in the above Verses)
and all those ---(other Angel Servants of AL-LAH)--- around it (beneath them) (as we clearly see it in the above Verses)

(together) always glorify the Praise of their LORD --(WHO is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all Universe/s, all Angels,
all Things-Persons whatsoever we can ever imagine above us =42/11 = 112/4 = 70/4)--

and they (=i.e. those "Eight" Highest-Ranking Angel Servants and all of those other High-Ranking Angel Servants beneath them therein above)--
believe in HIM (=AL-LAH), and they (thus always) seek forgiveness for those who have believed

Our LORD, YOU encompass all things with Mercy and Knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed YOUR Path, and spare them the agony of Hell.

QURAN TESTAMENT 69/15-17 = 40/7

Remain in peace/salaam.

[Man_of_Faith]

?It is Allah Who sends The Winds, and they raise The Clouds then does He Spread them in the sky As He wills, and break them Into fragments, until thou seest Raindrops issue from the midst Thereof then when He has Made them reach such Of His servants as He wills, Behold, they do rejoice! 3048

It could hardly have been hard to figure out for a random person that it is the clouds that bring with them water? Through mere observation you see that when there comes intensively blue clouds then there will be rain.

Your passage does not prove that clouds are water taken from the seas and run over land. Nor does any of those numbers you refer to, and some of them did not even remotely have to do anything with a water cycle. They all speak of sent clouds which release water which anyone could have figured out even in past times.

I mean, you are trying to validate the flimsy sectarian interpretation. These interpreters were just religious fanatics.

[Anoushirvan]

more than 1000 of these signs reflect about creation /science and stuff...

let say just for an example... i will ask a question from you, who told you about water cycle and when?

fit your answer there and then see its really talk about modern science or not... as i feel u did not focus on quran properly so i will make it easy to give references here...

The water cycle is described in several verses of the Quran, including 39, 757, 1317, 2548- 49, 3634, 509-11, 5668-70, 6730 and 8611 go through all of them...

?It is Allah Who sends The Winds, and they raise The Clouds then does He Spread them in the sky As He wills, and break them Into fragments, until thou seest Raindrops issue from the midst Thereof then when He has Made them reach such Of His servants as He wills, Behold, they do rejoice! 3048

I'am not impressed at all.

You know, my dear, there is an Afghan proverb that says "Although God is Almighty, He doesn't send rain when the sky is blue".

These verses miss the crucial parts of the water cycle the sun heating the sea and water evaporation.

Even the Hindous 1000 years before Mohamed knew that, as we can find in the hymn to the sun Adityahridayam
"He is the Lord of the firmament, dispeller of darkness. Master of all the vedas, he is a friend of the waters and causes rain. He has crossed the vindya range and sports in the Brahma Nadi."

What can be found in Qur'an is even less that what is found in the Bible

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. Ecclesiastes 17

If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth Ecclesiastes 113a

He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he makes lightnings for the rain; he brings the wind out of his treasuries.
Psalm 1357

He that calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth The LORD is his name. Amos 96b

In Qur'an

1317 He sends down water from the sky, so valleys flow according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewelry or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manner that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits the people, it remains in the earth. It is such that God puts forth the examples.

What you are actually missing, bro, is the sentences that I have underlined.
Water cycle in Qur'an is not there to explain water cycle per se, hence there is no point making it scientifically exact.

It is there to give a parable of how to establish the Deen. No more, no less.

[LastDay3]

You know, my dear, there is an Afghan proverb that says

"Although God is Almighty, He doesn't send rain when the sky is blue".

Salaam-Peace Anoushirvan,

dear Fellow/Friend, do you know there is a Proverb that says

AL-LAH is Almighty and HE does send "Rain" in a precise-Measure! (=54/49)

Because HE has created all Universe/s and HIS One and Only WORD (=QURAN TESTAMENT)
in such a wonderful Mathematic/Scientific Language, first of all, here

====================
18- And We sent down from the Sky "RainWater" (=in Arabic "Ma'an")
in a precise-Measure (=biQadarin), and We stored it on/in the Earth.
And certainly, We are upon letting it go away (=i.e. totally vanish because of severe drought & evaporation, etc. therein,
again) Precise-MEASURERS (=LaQADIROON).

QURAN TESTAMENT
Chapter No. 23 / Verse No. 18

11- And HE is the ONE Who sent down from the Sky "RainWater" (=in Arabic "Ma'an")
in a precise-Meaure (=biQadarin), and We have revived with it a dead land;
thus, you shall (also) be brought out.

QURAN TESTAMENT
Chapter No. 43 / Verse No. 11

Precisely Sent-Down "RAIN" MIRACLE, right here now =54/49
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf059.html

Remain in peace/salaam.

[imrankhawaja]

I'am not impressed at all.

i m not impressing you.. i was about to tell you a sign... you claim something in return i told you something ...

you told me about afghan saying now i will tell you a punjabi proverb/saying...

water cycle was just the checking of spice in whole meal... i did not serve you full meal yet...

now there is a spicy meal just a portion if you can handle...

1 ?Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder??

2 ?Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies, And placed therein a Lamp And a Moon giving light.? (moon reflected light)

3 ?It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.? ( movement of celestial bodies)

4 ?With the power and skill Did We construct The Firmament For it is We Who create The vastness of Space.? ( expanding universe , a biggest discovery of last century)

5 ?The Unbelievers say, ?Never to us will come The Hour? say, ?Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will come Upon you ? by Him Who knows the unseen ? From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.?? (THE EXISTENCE OF SUBATOMIC PARTICLES )

6 ?Or (the Unbelievers? state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds Depths of darkness, one Above another if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah Giveth not light, there is no light!? (darkness in the depth of ocean)

this specific verse i represent in the response of your hindu and bibilical refrences of water... show a beauty like this if you really know the gift of modern science underwater ocean science... my motif is not to criticise the books by other faiths.. everybody already know one truth and 100 lies = 99 % fail probabilty...

bring a scripture like this in which you have no chance to find a lie... or mistake ... whereas the list of errors in other books you cant count on your fingertips.... hmm

7 We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe??
?And Allah has created Every animal from water.? ( biology of water in animal bodies)

8 ?There is not an animal (That lives) on the earth, Nor a being that flies On its wings, but (forms Part of) communities like you.? (social behaviour of animals) science just recently discovered

9 ?There issues From within their bodies A drink of varying colours, Wherein is healing for men.? (HONEY HAS HEALING PROPERTIES )

10 ?Deaf, dumb and blind, They will not return (To the path).?

this is just a portion of modern science discovery facts... have it as well... your claim is nothing more than a wishful thinking of your own...

[imrankhawaja]

I mean, you are trying to validate the flimsy sectarian interpretation. These interpreters were just religious fanatics.

you are already failed terribly in plantey of your claims...

anyway look at above post.. and then tell me all these are also fanatics or all the errors belong to your own brain infact...

apart from this your interpreations are not only fanatics but they are magical i could not find it anywhere . u calim it was on your page it was not there. when i ask to send me perosnaly you were failed again at that occassion..

i m feeling like a secret agent is translating quran mysteriously...

[imrankhawaja]

6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.

So who are the "Eight" who will carry The Throne of Our Lord above the angels ?

brother people usually confused by this most of the times even when first time i read it i did not understand that properly still i m unable to understand it... but the actual subject somehow God put me in my head. it may b wrong or may be right ...but have a look at my view...

people think the 8 angles/controllers/maliks will carry a chair like throne in which God will be sitting ... its not really like that..

first of all its a throne. which mean a dominion and power of God... or a place where the matters of things related to us settled down. and it will appear infront of us .. not God himself. becoz the power/watching/controlling of God is everywhere...

second thing ... the throne i still cant understand , due to the illusion of expanding universe phenomenon... and the part of throne named as kursi 2 255 even extends over the heavens and earth... so its really really unable to understand what throne is actually... in size shape nature

in full Quran i never see anywwhere God claim somebody saw me/my nature...
or anywhere God is claiming someday somebody will saw me /my nature...

you can only get closing understandings of things slowly and slowly... so keep thinking like that...

although i m still working on something . that will we be able someday to watch/see/understand the real nature of God or its just a first step towards progress of human race in the shape of heavens and hell ... is it something like a advance game where things will get through level of stages.. somethings are hidden from our eyes due to a reason... life hereafter also bring lot of intrests and new objectives i think so... its just a start...