THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION

hlatif

Salaam Nural,

MAQAM can mean the Standing. This is a derivation of the meaning where Ibrahim stood. However, this is what Aidid had written on this section

and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed.

here are the problems
1- He used Shall take for the word ITTAKHITHOO, when this word is An order form of the verb. Shall take can be understood as an order, but it also can be understood as a future tense. I prefer TAKE.
2- He translated MUSALLA as WAS committed. I have never seen it mean that.
3- The MUSALLA was not Ibrahim as Aidid had written, it was the MAQAM
4- What do you take from the standing of Ibrahim.

Take care and have a good evening

Hussein

born_again

Salaam hlatif

What do you think about brother Wakas's translation of the verse

And We have made The House/Establishment1 a place of return/reward2 for/to people3 and a safety/security4. And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7. And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1 for those who go about/amongst8, those who are devoted9, and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

1 - bayt, root Ba-Ya-Ta
2 - mathabatan, root Th!aa-Waw-Ba
3 - nnasi = people/mankind = general, i.e. not a specific group of people.
4 - amnan, root Alif-Miim-Nuun, also see 483, 52, 681, 682, 2455.
5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).
6, 7 - They took from Abraham his stance/position (maqam, root Qaf-Waw-Miim, see 1779, 1973, 2658, 3313, 37164, 4426), his commitment (musallan, root Sad-Lam-Waw), which makes sense, as he was a role-model/leader (imam), see previous sign/verse.
8 - liltta-ifeena, root Tay-Waw-Fa
9 - AAakifeena, root Ayn-Kaf-Fa
10 - rrukkaAAi, root Ra-Kaf-Ayn
11 - ssujoodi, root Siin-Jiim-Dal

Peace...

hlatif

Salaam Born again,

Thank you for bringing to my attention Wakas' understanding of the AYAH. It is much more palatable than that of Aidid. However, I still have some issues with it.

And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7

I have some issues with this
1- WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments. I disagree. MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM). In this, the word MAQAM plays a totally passive role.
2- I need to clarify the word MAQAM again. The concrete meaning is Place of Standing. The abstract meaning will have to abide by the concrete meaning. So, the abstract meaning will be position/stance/rank as in how he is viewed (again being passive) rather than his Stance on something. You can look them up in the Qur'an
397, 3313, 37164, 4451, 5546, 7940, 1779, 1973, 2739, 5107, 1071, 1414.
3- He starts with they took whereas he said this

5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).

I do prefer Take since it is the imperative form of the verb.

So, if I am to accept Committments for salat, and rank for MAQAM, then I will translate this AYA this way
And Take from/of the rank of Ibrahim to perform commitment on

And this will be my more concrete and literal translation
And take of/from the place of standing of Ibrahim to perform Salat on.

I find my inderstanding clearer.

And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

Here, the two words are states in which a person is in. Therefore it would be more correct to say
Those who are inclining, acknowledging. (another vague meaning)
Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

I will end up with my personal view on the translation of Aidid's and less so on Wakas'. I feel that the words are vague words that make it nearly impossible to reach a clear conclusion. This troubles me.

Salaam all and have a good weekend

Hussein

born_again

Salaam All

6841 Or have they some "Partners"? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

6842 The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to perform sujood, but they shall not be able,-

6843 Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I hope I made myself clear.

Peace...

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

Thank you for critiquing my translation. Since I am a novice with Arabic, I appreciate comments, particularly relating to grammar.

WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments.

no i didn't, i took it as the singular (commitment, or more accurately any word which means "to go/turn towards").

MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM).

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

the sign clearly states cleanse My BYT, thus if it was already clean and has always been clean whats the point in saying to someone to cleanse it? there is no point. thus, its a fact it can be cleansed. My understanding works for both physicl and non-physical. both are intrinsic components of a system. we, ourselves, are asked to cleanse our body as well as our soul.

the reason it doesn't use zkw is because this word implies to develop, mke better, evolve etc. Tay-ha(o)-Ra does not have a develop/better connottion. This was masterfully explained in the following rticle

http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/tazkiya.htm

From PRL

Tay-ha-Ra = to be or become clean/pure or free of dirt, made it or caused it to be distant/remote, cleanse/wash/purify, refrain, remove oneself, to clear/clean, ablution.

= Zay-Kaf-Waw = it increased/augmented, it throve/grew well/flourished/prospered and produced fruit, it was/became pure, purification, goodness/righteousness, lead/enjoy a plentiful/easy/soft/delicate life, put into a good/right state/condition, alms, poor-rate/due

Im sorry you feel my word-choices are vague, i can assure you however i take great care in choosing my words. please see dictionary.com for further expalntion

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

my translations of "incline/humble" & "acknowledge" are core literal meanings, thus will inevitably allow some flexibility. This is my style. I feel its best & most just, the wasat, if you will.

Wakas

Natu

Peace.

I think we?ll scrap objectives A, B, C, for now, because we?ve got a truly beautiful discussion going, we?ll use these divisions of the verse in a concluding post for this verse 2125. All I would like to say is that we carry on discussing verse 2125 other verses of relevance to this one, and not move onto the others in the list until we have come to an agreed conclusion on this verse. I thank all reading/participating brothers and sisters of your kindness in appreciating this thread.

Outside my computer, I?m unfortunately, well, in a bit of a ?situation? at the moment, so its not likely that I?ll be able to get online as frequently as I have done previously, but I will, God willing whenever he gives me the opportunity. For now I would like to contribute the following

To SABO

I hope you won't be pissed off if I just push my nose asking a question

Chill bruv, I?m not gonna get peed off. Anyway, it shouldn?t make a difference because its not as though I own this thread or anything, I just happen to be the one that put up the first post on it lol. From the way I write these posts I might seem like some kind of white haired ?robotic? personality, but I?m only 18! I like talking to people, we can have a laugh? Anyway, I?m not in a position to criticise anyone, after my despicable behaviour in the thread ?Shouldn?t we be like God?. I had a long debate with mz357 in that thread, and I couldn?t get on, but when I came back and read the whole thread again, I realised that I?d been acting very unjustly trying to force my point through, and that was what made me change my approach. (I take this opportunity to apologise to mz357). By the way, I?d like to stress again, that everyone removes misconceptions that this is ?my? thread in any way. I have just as much authority as anybody else.

Do you think the word "praising" (arabic tasbih) is something to be said or is it also a metaphoric word? see for example 20130

Sabo, my friend, you really have highlighted a diamond for this discussion. Thanks so much! You ask whether it is something to be said or something metaphorical. Technically, we can actually glorify God without saying things, e.g. by making a statement in text, or glorifying God whilst thinking, so we don?t need to consider whether it is metaphorical or not. When we read 11114, God tells us to uphold the salaat/commitments, and times in the day are mentioned. The way I see it, God is just highlighting times to make us realise that we are to meet his set standards round the clock, whenever we are awake. And then, as you have highlighted 20130 (to my great appreciation, I assure you), I have realised that this verse may give strength to the possibility that 11114 wasn?t talking about the timings of ritual prayer, because 20130 talks about glorifying in a similar way. Now it could be said that both salaat and tasbih cannot be the same thing, so this may give proof against daily ritual worship, however, it may also be said that 20130 gives more definition to what ritual prayer involves, i.e. one of the aims of the ritual is to glorify God. I look forward to your views, if what you wish to contribute is to do with 2125 (the verse being discussed currently), then by all means come on and discuss right now, but if its for a verse other than this that I have highlighted in post 1 then please post it up once we have moved onto that verse after reaching conclusions on the verses prior to that, and if it not highlighted there, then I would be grateful if you send it to me in a PM, (as can any other brothers/sisters who wish to discuss a specific verse in this thread that I have not mentioned in post 1), and I?ll add it to the list of verses in Post 1 as soon as I can.

I see it can move us a bit to a definition of the word "bayt"

Man I?d LOVE to hear you ? please roll onto the thread and say what you wish, I want to hear your understanding whether you reject ritual prayer or not. Thanks in advance.

TO HUSSEIN

I am unable to support Aidid's translation of Mathaba as providence in this light. Can you elaborate on how you connect this meaning with Aidid's?

I was under the impression that this was possible, but being a non-arab without access to a lexicon, I?m afraid I cannot explain this, and thus I cannot say that Aidid is right, although I am not rejecting the possibility that he is, perhaps other brothers and sisters could help out here.

Actually the opposite is true. The AYA start with ALBAIT= THE House or SYSTEM(as you like to interpret it) and the cleansing part is for BAITI= MY House or SYSTEM (as you prefer to translate)

D?oh! I knew I was doing something wrong, and I kept checking over my post before I put it up, but I missed the thing that was staring at me in the face! Apologies. Thanks for highlighting this. Your point Hussein is that we needn?t cleanse God?s system, but one could say that the system (software, as I?d prefer to refer to it) ?belongs to God?, in just the way the hardware/?everything else physical? does, so if we could cleanse the hardware physically, it could be said that we could cleanse the software non-physically. I might have just increased the confusion? I?ll go get some coffee?

Thanks very much for your help Hussein.

To IDOLFREE

I really like your understanding, of ?THE HOUSE?, its seems to work well, but there just one slight problem and that?s is in getting my head around the concept of ?the house? being within, but it?ll probably work after thinking it through for a bit? in a few more seconds? yip? that?s it! I think it completely works, but I?ll stay open to other understandings as well if they convince me. Thank you very much for your valuable input idol free, it was much appreciated.

I intend to help bring a unified understanding.

Get in Idolfree! I loved reading that, may God give us all success.

To BORN AGAIN

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I for one approve of your understanding born again, the context of the verse does work out to give your understanding. Thank you very much for helping.

Thanks to everybody talking and listening on this thread, may the God reward us all.

hlatif

Salaam Wakas, Natu, all,

Thanks for your notes

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Munazzal
6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
The words were
ANNAHU MUNAZZALUN which mean That He (the book) was sent
So munazzal means that the act of sending was done on the book
Another word MUHAMMADOf course that is the name of the prophet. When I say
HUWA MUHAMMAD, it means that he was praised
MUHAMMAD then means that the act of praise was performed on him

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

So what is GOD's establishment that was mentioned in the AYA in your view? And how do you clean it?
You can clean GOD's establishment if it is a house, but I am not clear that you can clean GOD's system.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

I do apologise that I am not able to attach the meaning of the root S-J-D from PRL. However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

Salaam all and have a good evenin

Hussein

sabo

Salam Natu and all,

Thanks Natu for your comments and answer. I hope you'll be patient with me to let me present how I connect the "praising" (tasbih) with "bayt" to arrive to a definition of bayt...Maybe I am wrong, but this is how I connect it.

I found over 80 verses containing the root s-b-h (tasbih) and found many of them connecting verbs like say, call, etc with it.

See for example (sorry but I'll not give reference to the verses according to free-minds numbering system)
232 , 5116, 7143, 1010, 12108, 1793, 17108, 2187, 2416, 2518, 278, 3441, 3975, 4313, 6828-29

These were verses connecting the saying with the praising...

Now I found the verse 2436 saying
In Houses (byoot plural or bayt) God has allowed to be raised, in them there are people praising God day and night.

If we understand the bayt as a system, then its hard to understand 2436 ... Which systems (plural) are meant to be?

I am not in a position where I can clearly proof anything completely right now, but I can through this connection with praising<->saying and then other connection praising<-> houses see that the understanding of bayt as a system not clear, vague and when I see it in plural form, its more contradicting my sense, since I wouldn't know which systems is this verse talking about....

any useful input? I'd appreciate it.

Best regards,
sabo

born_again

Salaam All

Hlatif wrote

I do apologise that I am not able to attach the meaning of the root S-J-D from PRL. However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, hear & obey, prostrate, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done (could be physical or non-physical).

It is clear that the core meaning of Siin-Jiim-Dal is acknowledgement.

We can take the meanings "to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect" for 6842 and 6843 and the other SJD's instead of "to acknowledge" then?

Sabo wrote

Now I found the verse 2436 saying
In Houses (byoot plural or bayt) God has allowed to be raised, in them there are people praising God day and night.

If we understand the bayt as a system, then its hard to understand 2436 ... Which systems (plural) are meant to be?

The "bayt" in 2436 is not metaphorical. It talks about the houses of men.

Peace...

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

thanx for clarifying (i.e. Munazzal).

I still dont see a problem. The act of slw (i.e. to go/turn towards, commitment, attchment, link/bond/connect, follow closely) is done on his stance/position. his stnce/position is attchment/etc. his attachment/etc. is his position/stnce. it does not play a pssive role.

So what is GOD's establishment that was mentioned in the AYA in your view?

It could be either a physical building, a community/governing structure, order/system, prctice/implementtion of the deen, or non-physicl. Both are intrinsic, and both are required if one wishes to set-up/raise a community/governing structure. This is what is special about Abraham's story in my opinion. He not only manifested it within himself but set-up/raised the structure. e.g. you will never hear of a HJJ prior to Abrham, as this requires special structure, not just one building!

And how do you clean it?
You can clean GOD's establishment if it is a house, but I am not clear that you can clean GOD's system.

The God's system/law has been repeatedly corrupted time and time again, hence the succession of prophets. They repeatedly told the people how they corrupted (made unclean) The God's law/system etc. it still goes on today! thus it requires cleaning, i.e. removing of impurities, not improving/bettering (zkw), thus it can esily be cleaned, and it doesn't just involve a physical building. Bro, imagine if you were in chrge of Saudi Arabia for example, to cleanse the BYT/structure, do you think all is required is to cleanse a physical structure and your job is done? No! various laws/regultions would have to be clensed also. thus i cannot and will not limit my trans. to either a physical or non-physicl understanding, when both are clearly required. it makes sense logically and prctically.

NB please see natural republic, pilgrimmage section for major problems with maqam Ibrahim. it simply is not workable.
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip

However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

you remember correctly. I added the part you speak of. The reson was the core meaning was clear in every single dictionary meaning and every single usage in al quran. you will not find an exception to this rule in al qurn. please note, i never said its meaning was equal to "acknowledgement", i just said it ws the core. other meanings are alternative to that if u object to that specific term as born_again pointed out. furthermore, im fairly confident that this specific meaning could be found in dictionries. this specific root was only compiled from lane and the QD (which incorporates several). BUT as it is strictly an insertion on my part, i am willing to remove it if majority of contributors to PRL think it should be, OR mjority of users of PRL feel it should be omitted. I have no problems with that.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas, all,

Thanks for responding.

I still dont see a problem. The act of slw (i.e. to go/turn towards, commitment, attchment, link/bond/connect, follow closely) is done on his stance/position. his stnce/position is attchment/etc. his attachment/etc. is his position/stnce. it does not play a pssive role.

1- MAQAM in an abstract form has never meant HIS stand on positions on some issue or law . It always meant, How he was viewd (by GOD or other), his rank or so.
I am inserting the link to open burhan
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
Please point me to where MAQAM has an active role.
2- So the translation would be like this
And take of the rank/how he is viewed/ standing of ibrahim to commit/connect/link to (if you are to do it your way)

I have difficulty understanding what that means.

It could be either a physical building, a community/governing structure, order/system, prctice/implementtion of the deen, or non-physicl. Both are intrinsic, and both are required if one wishes to set-up/raise a community/governing structure. This is what is special about Abraham's story in my opinion. He not only manifested it within himself but set-up/raised the structure. e.g. you will never hear of a HJJ prior to Abrham, as this requires special structure, not just one building!

As you know, I do not have a problem with the BAYT of GOD being a structure, because it can be cleaned. Now, if you mean the System of GOD in a non physical sense, then I will have a major problem

The system of GOD is constant. When changes occur to the system of GOD then it stops being GOD's system and becomes Man's system. So, the cleaning is not to GOD's system, it is to Man's sytem so that it becomes GOD's again. The AYAH however talks about cleaning GOD's BAYT and not man's BAYT to becomes GOD's again.

1777 (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

hence the succession of prophets. They repeatedly told the people how they corrupted (made unclean) The God's law/system etc

No, people left GOD's sytem when they corrupted it. They did not make GOD's sytem unclean. When they clean their systems, then they return to GOD's sytem.

NB please see natural republic, pilgrimmage section for major problems with maqam Ibrahim. it simply is not workable.
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip

Thanks for the link. Very interesting article and has negatives and positives
The positive
It says that MAQAM IBRAHIM is a place. So, if you accept this article then you accept the MAQAM is a location
The negatives
The AYA that they base their argument about Jerusalem rather than Mecca is 397
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), IBRAHIM's standing place who enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

The AYA talks about the IBRAHIM's standing place as Plural and not singular and that was the major fault of that article. It assumed a singular location. This supports my argument that I presented earlier that Ibrahim stood in and out and any where around the place. Ibrahim also stood in Jerusalem at the spot that the article talks about. That is another reason that the muslims made of the mosque in Jerusalem a MUSALLA.

please note, i never said its meaning was equal to "acknowledgement", i just said it ws the core

Thanks for clarifying. My major problem with acknowledgement is
1- you ackowledge people who are above you, below you or the same as you. SUJOOD is done always to entities that you consider above you.
2- Sujood always indicates that you are letting the entity that you performing Sujood to, know that you are showing respect. I am not certain if acknowledge does that.

Salaam all and have a great Sunday afternoon

hussein

TheNabi

Salaam Hussein,

People cannot make the system unclean, but they can corrupt it? Explain please.

No, people left GOD's sytem when they corrupted it.

Joe

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

1- MAQAM in an abstract form has never meant HIS stand on positions on some issue or law . It always meant, How he was viewd (by GOD or other), his rank or so.

Please see 1071. The fact is there are many signs implying a non-physical understanding of maqam. its non-physical meaning is rank/status/position/stance.

Please point me to where MAQAM has an active role.

I dont understand what you mean by active role. According to CofQ, the example you gave of munazzal in 6114 is passive.

Are you saying 'maqamu' in 397 is plural? If so, I could not verify that from the sources I have.

In it (the BYT) are clear signs, the maqamu of Abraham, and whoever enters it (the BYT) will be secure.

the maqam of Abraham is inside the BYT. I ssume you disagree?

Wakas

Natu

PERIODIC PROGRESS REPORT

Can ?Sujood? mean ?submit? rather than ?prostrate? in the context of 6842?

The general view now is that it is possible.

Does God?s house/system need to be cleansed?

Currently uncertain ? more discussion is required.

Is there any support in lexicons/dictionaries to suggest that ?bayt? can be translated as ?system??

The general view now is that ?bayt? can be translated as ?establishment?, which can support physical and non-physical ?salaat?.

Can ?Mathaba? be translated as ?providence??

No evidence has been presented as yet.

Can the concept of ?The house? be understood as a metaphor? And in 2436 where it appears in the plural form?

The general view is that it is possible, and many strongly approve of this.

Does ?Maqam? mean ?physical location?, or ?viewpoint/stance? on something?

Currently uncertain ? although many agree on 'stance' - more discussion is required.

Current general understandings
The verse appears in parts illogical without accepting physical ritual prayer, and understandings are emerging which show that the verse doesn?t necessarily support nor reject physical ritual prayer.

hlatif

Salaam Natu, Wakas, Joe, all,

Thanks Nato for the conclusion. I also do appreciate that all were repectful of the people that supported ritual prayer. At times, I saw the term idolator thrown from the beginning. It did not happen here and that is very appreciated.

I do need to address two important points that Wakas and Joe mentioned, as we wrap this discussion up.

Joe said

People cannot make the system unclean, but they can corrupt it? Explain please.

I will give you an example of what I think. GOD's system is the system of the one GOD and the worship of the one GOD. When people worship idols and think that the idols get them closer to GOD, they are no more in GOD's system. They corrupted the existant system and ended up outside of it.

Wakas said

Are you saying 'maqamu' in 397 is plural? If so, I could not verify that from the sources I have.

In it (the BYT) are clear signs, the maqamu of Abraham, and whoever enters it (the BYT) will be secure.

the maqam of Abraham is inside the BYT. I ssume you disagree?

I did look at the Lisan Al Arab and did not find something supporting nor negating that MAQAM is plural. However, I did discover another meaning for MAQAM and that is the place were a person stayed
This understanding supports the many Ayat in the one place where he stayed

As for the house. I consider the yard as part of the house. Another issue would be that the MAQAM is inside, but does not exclude maqam outside.

Take care y'all (for my southern living) and GOD bless you

Hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

Thanks for progressing to the wrap up.

Your differentiation between being able to corrupt a system, and stating that God's system cannot become unclean is a non-point in my opinion. At best, its extremely weak.

I did look at the Lisan Al Arab and did not find something supporting nor negating that MAQAM is plural. However, I did discover another meaning for MAQAM and that is the place were a person stayed.

I think its clear its singular. This can be seen from its other usage also. Its all very well finding an alternative meaning, but it has to be at least used in other occurrences of maqam.

No-one I know refers to the yard as the house. Has your implied meaning any basis in al quran or the dictionaries?

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,

I think its clear its singular. This can be seen from its other usage also. Its all very well finding an alternative meaning, but it has to be at least used in other occurrences of maqam.

1071 Relate to them the story of Noah. Behold! he said to his people "O my people, if it be hard on your (mind) that I should stay (with you) MAQAMI and commemorate the signs of Allah,- yet I put my trust in Allah. Get ye then an agreement about your plan and among your partners, so your plan be on to you dark and dubious. Then pass your sentence on me, and give me no respite.

i will need to look the issue of the BAYT further. However, it does not make a difference whether the MAQAM was inside the house, since it could be all the house and not a foot print.

Your differentiation between being able to corrupt a system, and stating that God's system cannot become unclean is a non-point in my opinion. At best, its extremely weak
.
Are you suggesting that the people that worship idols are in GOD's system? If you are to clean that system, then are you cleaning GOD's system? or their system?

Salaam and have a good day.

Husein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

1071 could be interpreted several ways. In such a situation, one should bring a clear example in which it most likely is the option you mentioned.

i will need to look the issue of the BAYT further. However, it does not make a difference whether the MAQAM was inside the house, since it could be all the house and not a foot print.

So if it doesn't matter if maqam was inside the house, and you're translating maqam as "staying place", that means you're implying Abraham stayed in the house?

If you're going to study BYT, you're only on the tip of the iceberg. For example, Muhammad ws sent to a people who NEVER had a messenger before, thus if Abrham (& his sons) ws in Mecca, how do you explain tht? Why does God call Mecce Bacca? etc.

Are you suggesting that the people that worship idols are in GOD's system? If you are to clean that system, then are you cleaning GOD's system? or their system?

You are extrapolating upon my maqam/stance/position. The fact is God's system (laid down for us) can be corrupted. This is exemplified loads and loads of times in al quran. I cant say more than that.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,

Thanks for your points.

1071 could be interpreted several ways. In such a situation, one should bring a clear example in which it most likely is the option you mentioned.

4451 The Righteous (they will be) in a safe place (MAQAM AMEEN)
4452 Among Gardens and Springs;
4453 Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
they will stay there

2739 Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy place (MAQAMIKA) indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

4425 How many were the gardens and springs they left behind,
4426 And corn-fields and noble buildings, (MAQAM KAREEM)

This last example is a plural MAQAM. The reason is that it comes after all the other plurals, and adresses THEY.

If you're going to study BYT, you're only on the tip of the iceberg. For example, Muhammad ws sent to a people who NEVER had a messenger before, thus if Abrham (& his sons) ws in Mecca, how do you explain tht? Why does God call Mecce Bacca? etc.

I find that the never argument questionable. Please present your AYAT that agree with this assumption.

It is questionable because it goes against this.
1636 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger,

I will leave the BACCA, I know that sometimes people argue because of psalms 847 that talks about the valley of BACCA. One thing I am sure of is that Jerusalem (my hometown) is not in a valley. It and the especially the mosque are on a plateau. Therefore Jerusalem is not BACCA wherever BACCA ends up being located.

Salaam and have a good day

hussein

ayman

Peace Hussein,

4451 The Righteous (they will be) in a safe place (MAQAM AMEEN)
4452 Among Gardens and Springs;
4453 Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
they will stay there

2739 Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy place (MAQAMIKA) indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

4425 How many were the gardens and springs they left behind,
4426 And corn-fields and noble buildings, (MAQAM KAREEM)

This last example is a plural MAQAM. The reason is that it comes after all the other plurals, and adresses THEY.

This doesn't make any sense. According to your theory, people (plural) cannot leave buildings (plural) and one town (singular) but many people can only leave many buildings and many towns.

The word "maqam" is definitely singular". The arguments that you are presenting only prove that you are trying too hard to make it plural, even at the expense of good sense.

It is questionable because it goes against this.
1636 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger,

See 2846 and 323.

I will leave the BACCA, I know that sometimes people argue because of psalms 847 that talks about the valley of BACCA. One thing I am sure of is that Jerusalem (my hometown) is not in a valley. It and the especially the mosque are on a plateau. Therefore Jerusalem is not BACCA wherever BACCA ends up being located.

The great reading never says that Bacca/"bacca?" is in a valley. Therefore you are making conclusions based on nothing more than the false Psalms. At any rate, I don't think it is important to know where Bacca is (that is if it is a place).

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman