Salat = Education-Process
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Peace Layth,
I humbly ask you to consider this two point proposal/deal.
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Good logic took the words out of my mouth. Have you considered leaving all the words in which you discern difficulty translating in Arabic? Perhaps it can be done in the future and with more words than just salat, like Daraba in 434 and so forth. It would highly encourage the reader to truly study.
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Please bring forth all the occurrences in Quran in which you perceive that prayer or an extension of the root meaning does not fit as a translation. The reason I say this is because I earnestly see no problem with the way it is now and if I do not I am sure there are many more who feel the same. I think it would be only fair that you bring up the verses in question forward for analysis and discussion. After all, I noticed how you always acknowledge all the members of this forum as contributors, then let us contribute in the most honest way by consulting with us and discussing at least primarily if there even truly is an issue at all.
Below I simply cite Ayaahs to demonstrate how one of the examples you have claimed is illogical is in fact, the opposite very logical and matches the oft-repeating parts. 3923 1587
I disagree that salat in the conventional understanding raises an issue in the example of the birds.
The birds truly know their prayer. They have their own communications and language we just do not understand them. Even the Hoopoe glorified Allah!This is explained very clearly in Al-Quran.
All creatures are in communities like us638 And not any animal in the earth and not a bird (that) flies with its wings - but (are) communities like you. We have not neglected in the Book anything, then to their Lord they will be gathered.
1744 Glorify Him the seven heavens and the earth and whatever (is) in them. And (there is) not any thing except glorifies His Praise, but not you understand their glorification. Indeed, He is Ever-Forbearing, Oft-Forgiving."
2179 And We gave understanding of it (to) Sulaiman, and (to) each We gave judgment and knowledge. And We subjected with Dawud the mountains (to) glorify Our praises and the birds. And We were the Doers.
2218 Do not you see that Allah - prostrates to Him whoever (is) in the heavens and whoever (is) in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains, and the trees and the moving creatures and many of the people? But many - (is) justly due on him the punishment. And whoever Allah humiliates then not for him any bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills
-the first word in teal is yasjudu while the second is dawabu. Clearly birds which are included among the moving creatures prostrate/submit to Allah-verse in question 2441 Do not you see that Allah - glorify Him whoever (is) in the heavens and the earth and the birds (with) wings outspread? Each one verily knows its prayer and its glorification. And Allah (is) All-Knower of what they do.
-It is obvious to me that the birds' soaring (and perhaps gliding as well) which is relying upon rising air to increase altitude is perhaps one of their way of glorification. They humbly submit/prostrate and rely on the air/wind truthfully ALLAH to hold them up, they are not flapping and exerting force they are peacefully submitting to the Will of the Most Gracious. In fact6719 Do not they see the birds above them spreading (their wings) and folding? Not holds them except the Most Gracious. Indeed, He (is) of every thing All-Seer.
-Hoopoe speaking 2725-26 That not they prostrate to Allah, the One Who brings forth the hidden in the heavens and the earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare, Allah (there is) no god but He, (the) Lord (of) the Throne the Great."
-Ayah 26 is an obvious glorification/praise/exalting3410 And certainly, We gave Dawood from Us Bounty. "O mountains! Repeat praises with him, and the birds." And We made pliable for him iron,
3819 And the birds assembled, all with him repeatedly turning.
-perhaps Dawood sang praises as the birds also turned with him by chirping as they do every day morning and evening (Btw Do you hear the birds loud chirping right before sunrise and before sunset?)Brother, know that as per 1744, 2218 and 2441 EVERYTHING glorifies, magnifies, exalts, prostrates to The Most Gracious.
The above verses are abundantly sufficient evidence to negate the claim that salat in its conventional meaning does not fit.
Since it is clear you were mistaken about this example brother, how many more could you have mistakenly altered?
Finally, I just have one last remaining question, what is your exact definition of education, in the unifying meaning you want to impose in your translation?
Why are you seeking for a unifying term or definition. In my education, I do not recall language being so rigid. The same word may have slightly different meaning depending upon context and that is okay, language is fluid. I do not see the problem with salat meaning prayer in one verse and blessings in the next as long as these meaning are true to the root definitions and context.I urge you to please consider at least discussing each occurrence you deem troublesome and that is for your benefit, because the burden and responsibility of presenting Allah's Words and preserving the original meaning as it was delivered falls upon you, since you took upon yourself to translate it. So do not take it lightly and rush glibly into making changes but lend your ear into consultation with the righteous among your peers.
4238 And those who respond to their Lord and establish prayer and their affairs (are conducted by) consultation among them, and from what We have provided them they spend,
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Salam,
Would leaving the words- Salat,salawat,yussalli...etc in english in the verses and put the meaning in brackets next to them be a better alternative?
Then the reader can see what the original Arabic word is .It can also highlight the issues this has with different translations.
The option of leaving the word "as is" was considered, but it was abandoned because it defeats the purpose of a "translation". The only words that have been left untranslated are proper names.
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Dear HP,
I welcome your comments and do read all opinions so as not to miss any information that may help us all.
The subject of Salat to my mind is not a linguistic one where we are trying to bring it in-line with a "root word" that may or may not even be its source, but is a bigger issue of "purpose" which is lost in many of these discussions. Let me clarify
- Al-Salat has certain properties that, when done properly, will prohibit a person from immorality and vice (2945)
- God gives Himself the same attribute as Al-Salat (prohibiting immorality and vice 1690)
- Salat can be "lost" (1959)
- Salat needs focus and a sharp mind (443)
- Salat gives instructions/information (1187)
- Salat is done in an audible voice
- Salat is done at certain fixed times, and in a congregation when possible
Just looking at the points above, you can easily discount a large number of words that people may believe are Salat ("prayer" as a meaning being the first one off the list).
Now, other words that do work are "Communion/Connection/Education/Learning/Lawgiving"
The second part of the picture is the many derivatives of Salat (Yusalai, Sala, Saloo, Salatak, Salatahum, etc.).
Here the words start tightening-up as some of the meanings which worked in the first part are no longer possible
- "Connection/Communion" fail in 984 when someone has died.
- "Communion" fails in 3356 when God and His angels "Yusaloon" upon the Prophet and the believers.
In summary, we are looking at a "process" through which laws are communicated/derived/learned. This is why I have suggested "Education-Process" and its derivatives "educate/education". However, I would also say that "Lawgiving/Law" and its derivatives could work.
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227 The ones who break their pledge to God after making the covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be joined("the verb of salat". Moreover, they make corruption on earth; these are the losers.
This verse puts two verbs in contrast with each other, one of them is the "salat" I believe. The verb is "to cut" (literally) or "disrupt" that is put in contrast with the verb of "salat".
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This verse puts two verbs in contrast with each other, one of them is the "salat" I believe. The verb is "to cut" (literally) or "disrupt" that is put in contrast with the verb of "salat".
Peace Cerberus,
In response to 227 it is a different root altogether, it is waw sad lam. While salat/salah is sad lam waw.
May ask what tool did you use for checking that word in Arabic?
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Peace Cerberus,
In response to 227 it is a different root altogether, it is waw sad lam. While salat/salah is sad lam waw.
May ask what tool did you use for checking that word in Arabic?
As, matter of fact, my dear brother, these two roots are connected, and if we, with Allah's Help understand "salat" and its root and other words from it, we'll know, with His 'izn, that salat is nothing what was said in this post and in most of the books written by the people.
Salat is "staying close or joined" and this is the similarity of its root and the root waw sad lam. Meaning of salat includes help, advice and all other actions one who's near to somebody or a group can do. Understanding salat leads to understanding 'emr with His Help, and understanding all other deen topics. Understanding about the meaning of salat leads to Muslim unity, as Allah swt ordered to us. When Muslims left salat Allah swt took the knowledge about it from them and left them alone, where's normal to kill each other. If we read Allah's Kitab we can learn more about this.
We should only read ayats and read about only ayats without shirk, and pray to Him for His Help and forgiveness for what we've done of sins, no matter if we know for them or not. He's ghafur-ur-raheem.
Allah's bless and selam.
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As, matter of fact, my dear brother, these two roots are connected, and if we, with Allah's Help understand "salat" and its root and other words from it, we'll know, with His 'izn, that salat is nothing what was said in this post and in most of the books written by the people.
Salat is "staying close or joined" and this is the similarity of its root and the root waw sad lam. Meaning of salat includes help, advice and all other actions one who's near to somebody or a group can do. Understanding salat leads to understanding 'emr with His Help, and understanding all other deen topics. Understanding about the meaning of salat leads to Muslim unity, as Allah swt ordered to us. When Muslims left salat Allah swt took the knowledge about it from them and left them alone, where's normal to kill each other. If we read Allah's Kitab we can learn more about this.
We should only read ayats and read about only ayats without shirk, and pray to Him for His Help and forgiveness for what we've done of sins, no matter if we know for them or not. He's ghafur-ur-raheem.
Allah's bless and selam.
Peace dear brother,
I hear your argument and I mostly agree I believe. Do you agree that salat also includes recitation of Quran and glorification?
I want to implement your advice. May you please clarify exactly what you meant in the green?
And unto you Allah's bless and salam
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I had to modify my answer, for a clear answers about the questions you asked
Yes, salat as in order "stand for salat" includes reading the Qur'an and tesbih.
I wrongly wrote "read" twice, but I meant "read" ... "think". What I meant is we should read only ayats and think about them only, without shirk (adding anything else, as "science" for example).
Allah's bless and selam.
P. S. Sorry, was in a hurry and haven't read your post good.
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Dear HP,
I welcome your comments and do read all opinions so as not to miss any information that may help us all.
The subject of Salat to my mind is not a linguistic one where we are trying to bring it in-line with a "root word" that may or may not even be its source, but is a bigger issue of "purpose" which is lost in many of these discussions. Let me clarify
- Al-Salat has certain properties that, when done properly, will prohibit a person from immorality and vice (2945)
- God gives Himself the same attribute as Al-Salat (prohibiting immorality and vice 1690)
- Salat can be "lost" (1959)
- Salat needs focus and a sharp mind (443)
- Salat gives instructions/information (1187)
- Salat is done in an audible voice
- Salat is done at certain fixed times, and in a congregation when possible
Just looking at the points above, you can easily discount a large number of words that people may believe are Salat ("prayer" as a meaning being the first one off the list).
Now, other words that do work are "Communion/Connection/Education/Learning/Lawgiving"
The second part of the picture is the many derivatives of Salat (Yusalai, Sala, Saloo, Salatak, Salatahum, etc.).
Here the words start tightening-up as some of the meanings which worked in the first part are no longer possible
- "Connection/Communion" fail in 984 when someone has died.
- "Communion" fails in 3356 when God and His angels "Yusaloon" upon the Prophet and the believers.
In summary, we are looking at a "process" through which laws are communicated/derived/learned. This is why I have suggested "Education-Process" and its derivatives "educate/education". However, I would also say that "Lawgiving/Law" and its derivatives could work.
Peace Layth,
I am not saying that Salat has one meaning and that, that is only prayer. I am saying that the root definitions has a range of meanings which well encompass the most accurate and reasonable propositions in this thread.
Lath just so we are on the same page, do you know all the different meanings the root sad lam waw denotes in Classical Arabic?
This is a legitimate studious question. If you know it then, you should know that salat in its Arabic root signifies prayer, supplication, oration(lecture and by extension perhaps education), eulogy, commendation, blessings ( as invoking God's blessing upon a person like we do regularly in this forum!), magnification, honoring, following closely and etcetera.
Most lexicons are clear about explaining that salat as in prayer is the primary but not sole signification!
Allah's Blessings and Salam upon the believers!
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Salam,
Thank you HP, Cerberus, and Mazhar,
I would like to make a statement on Arabic and root meanings. Not every word in the Quran is a proper or known word. Some are sounds "like ALM, ALR, etc.", and some are foreign "like Alrahman - which the Arab speakers could not understand its meaning (2560).
Salat to my reading is such a word - a word that was created to describe an act and is not a descendant of SLW or YSL.
It is usage and context that give us the proper meaning of words in the Quran.
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I would like to make a statement on Arabic and root meanings. Not every word in the Quran is a proper or known word. Some are sounds "like ALM, ALR, etc.", and some are foreign "like Alrahman - which the Arab speakers could not understand its meaning (2560).
Salat to my reading is such a word - a word that was created to describe an act and is not a descendant of SLW or YSL.
"Known words" to whom? There're no "foreign words" in the Qur'an and its lisan is not Arabic.
Allah's bless and selam.
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Salam,
Thank you HP, Cerberus, and Mazhar,
I would like to make a statement on Arabic and root meanings. Not every word in the Quran is a proper or known word. Some are sounds "like ALM, ALR, etc.", and some are foreign "like Alrahman - which the Arab speakers could not understand its meaning (2560).
Salat to my reading is such a word - a word that was created to describe an act and is not a descendant of SLW or YSL.
It is usage and context that give us the proper meaning of words in the Quran.
Linguistic Semantics is the study of meanings as inherent at the levels of words, phrases, sentences and larger units of discourse-text. It is used for understanding human expression through language. The discourse-text of Grand Qur'aan is in Arabic a perspicuous, eloquent, distinctive and precisely expressive language; the language of the sons of soil of Arabian Peninsula.
Experts suggest that it is useful to view the vocabulary of a language/text as a set of words referring to a series of conceptual fields. In linguistics, these divisions are called Semantic fields. A semantic field or semantic domain is a set of words grouped by meaning referring to a specific subject; languages will have fields of distance, location, size, shape, time, emotion, beliefs, economics, academic subjects, natural phenomena, etc. Each field can have many sub-divisions or lexical sets actual words and expressions. Semantic fields are arranged hierarchically, going from the more general to the more specific. Linguists generally refer the general word by umbrella term "superordinate" and the specific word as "hyponym". The propositional meaning carried by a general word or superordinate is part of the meaning of each of its hyponyms but not vice versa.
The Root has specific, defined, distinct, conspicuous and apparent concept, phenomenon, perception and signification folded in it. It is the source, the reservoir of knowledge. Roots can be termed as "repertory of frames" of Arabic language if we follow frames approach to semantic analysis.
The amazing fact about the Roots of Arabic is that the perception infolded in them is reflective of physical?scientific realities pertaining both to matter and life. They seem as if they are the baseline for scientific study and investigation.
Semantics of Qur'aan is like "semantics" of DNA?triplet schema
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Salam,
Just to add some more thoughts to this discussion on Salat.
I stated that many of the words used for Salat fail in the different settings/context that the Quran uses (especially prayer).
The most problematic verse in most translations is 984 which causes a myriad of shifts in meanings and words
984 And do not "Tusali" upon/for any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
If we use "pray/commune", then that forces the use of the same meaning for 3356 & 3343 where God and His angels "Yussalu" upon the prophet and the believers.
If we use "connect/link", then that creates a different problem as we are speaking about a dead person - no chance of linking or connecting there...
However, if we use the verb "educate" then we can see some form of teaching should be happening when a person dies, which, in this case, the prophet is commanded not to carry out said teaching for this particular group of people...
This is further confirmed by 5106-108 where we see a "death Salat" being called for after a person has passed and the subject of his testimony/will is discussed and witnessed
5106 O you who believe, witnessing shall be done if death is approaching one of you and a will is being made-by two who are equitable amongst you. Or, by two who are unknown to you if you have gone forth in the land and death is approaching. If you have doubt regarding them, then you will hold them after carrying out the "Salat", and let them swear by God "We will not purchase with it any price, even if it was from a near relative, and we will not conceal the testimony of God, else we are of the sinners."
5107 If it is then found that they had indeed incurred the sin, then two others, from those who have been named as beneficiaries, will take their place; and they will swear by God "Our testimony is more truthful than their testimony, and if we aggress, then we are of the wicked."
5108 This is best as they are more likely to bring the testimony as intended, or face that their oaths would be disregarded as the previous oaths. And be aware of God, and listen; God does not guide the wicked people. -
If you ever been on some funeral maybe you asked yourself What I'm doing here? Why are all of these people here?
If we think we can get the knowledge if Allah swt Wants. If we reject to think we won't get any answer.So, understanding "salat" (tusalli) in 984 is in thinking about what was said, about an event, not about lexicons and meanings of the words in languages other then Qur'anic lisan.
If we doing shirk in thinking about anything else but Allah's Qawl, we can't understand, we'll fail for sure.
This is not to criticize anybody, just as a reminder what we should do and Allah swt knows best.Allah's bless and selam.
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I stated that many of the words used for Salat fail in the different settings/context that the Quran uses (especially prayer).
The most problematic verse in most translations is 984 which causes a myriad of shifts in meanings and words
984 And do not "Tusali" upon/for any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
Unless one knows the concept embedded in the Root and that it is the irreducible feature in all the words stemming from the Root, such type of confusion will persist.
Basic perception infolded in the Root is to praise and magnify; expressing commendation or wishing blessings upon the one who is revered or appreciated.
Morphology, syntax will add meanings and connotations; collocates will further add relational meanings in the context.
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Salam,
I have made two files (one using "Education-Process" and its derivatives, one using "Communion" and its derivatives)
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf (Education-Process)
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran-communion.pdf (Communion)
