Physically killing of Prophet

NK

Hi all,
My apology, if this topic has already discussed. If yes then i humbly request admin to share the link.

If not then my question is

In Chapter 2 verse 61, Moses is condemning his nation of killing of prophets but before Moses it was not mentioned anywhere neither in Bible nor in Quran that Jews killed any prophet, then how did Moses is condemning his people which never happened?

The only reference we find in the bible is John the Baptist but his killing also not mentioned in the Quran single time.
How did Jews used to kill prophets when there is no evidence in the bible nor in Quran.

Please share your valuable knowledge with us.

Thanks
Nk

Man_of_Faith

Good of you to notice inconsistency.

Rekkd

It can be looked at with another point of view. Moses condemning them is evidence that they killed prophets.

good_logic

Peace NK.

Where does Moses condemn them for killing the prophets in the verse?

The last statement of the verse is a general statement from GOD about "Beni Israeel" dealings with prophets up to when Qoran was revealed. 262 goes on to clarify the minimum behaviour required by GOD to them and te other religions.

In 261 Moses was condemning them for wanting the things of this life . i.e to regret leaving "Masr" and all the good food that was there!!! in the first statement of the verse only.

My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

NK

Thanks for everyone contribution.

Good logic you have a valid point. Could you please share your opinion regarding the killing of Prophets by Jews mentioned in the Quran and the bible.

I am having difficulty finding evidence from scriptures that Jews physically killed the prophets.

The word "qatal" which means to kill someone by hitting someone with a weapon or stone or with poison etc. It is also used when one person fight with another or "one want to murder another."

It is true that mostly this word used for killing someone (taking the life) but in my opinion, in all those verses, which talks about the killing of prophets by Jews, the last meaning (one want to murder another) was used. In Quran, it is also used in the similar sense in Chapter 40 verse 28.

If you read Quran, you will find that Jews rejected some of the Prophets and some of them they want to kill, for example, Ibrahim, Saleh, Lot, Prophet Muhammad, etc.

It is only my opinion which could be wrong. Sorry for my bad English. I hope I have explained it to you.

A_Submitter

Salam,

seems like a mix of understanding.

The Quran came after all that happened to previous prophets.
God is saying the subject, not Moses.
God is saying to the readers about the Children of Israel.

Note Those that wanted to kill Abraham, Saleh, Hud etc. (those that came before Jacob) weren't Children of Israel. They have other names, such as people of Thamud or people of 'Aad.

Salam

Man_of_Faith

My own independent study shows Qatel means defeat, all the time, so that is my opinion. The word does therefore not disclose whether the person dies or not, only that the person is defeated, beaten.

I am basing this on searches in Classical Arabic lexicons and comparing contextually with Quran.

For example, Quran actually says that David/Dawood defeats Goliath.

In the same work I take it that the co-traveler with Moses does lecture the boy of the parents so that he in the future will not cause the problems that the narrative says. I would say in that sense that you would see it as "master the boy" like persuade him from his will.

Moses complains because the man is rowdy with the boy, perhaps he did flog or harshly discipline the boy so Moses reacted. Supposedly Moses would not even allow the man to continue traveling with him if he actually killed him.

In all the man did he taught Moses a lesson.

For example, the law of Moses says "do not seek to defeat (Qatel)", but the traveler showed that you it would be worse to let the boy continue to be disobedient and grow up perhaps as a criminal than to counter the boy early in life, and use defeating means.

The boat already comes across pretty well in the usual rendition, but it is that sometimes it is better to burn the ships than to let them fall into the wrong hands. Perhaps the boat was filled with valuable cargo that would finance a malicious ruler who would only wreak havoc with it. Moses thought only about the destruction of property.

Moses does also not kill a man in Egypt/Mesr but he tries to master his opposition as conveying he had a message as a prophet although he initially failed and those in authority made sure to conspire against him. This alternative story can be read by the Jewish ancient historian Josepheus who wrote in Greek. There is reason to believe him too because Qatel is used in the context where Moses is claimed to kill a man and it means "to defeat/master". I also read the same story of Moses in another book which I unfortunately forgot the name of.

That Moses killed a man is just a disgrace to his name.

However, before he got spiritually enlightened, Moses was more or less a warlord for the Pharaoh fighting in war. It was when he got deeper spiritually he got in trouble with the authorities and had to flee. Some people had began to recognize him as a prophet, among them his brother Aaron/Haroon, and the authorities were intimidated and as you know Pharaoh is a god representative on Earth in their belief.

And Moses ran off in the deserts until he met his wife and father-in-law Jethro (name according to sources), think you know the story about the well. There he nurtured his spiritual talent and Jethro was a priest (mentioned in sources too) and helped him too and Moses worked for him for some years. Eventually he felt a power or energy coming from a mountain and there he beheld a light from which a voice came. He was taught by God much about the nature of God (e.g. I am who I am) and told to go to the 'Children of Israel' and teach and train them in being (the one) 'Who Is'. So he convinced his father-in-law that he had to go and Jethro let him go with his wife. And God was was him actively the whole time so in that age you would have seen paranormal activity. And the assembly of the 'Children of Israel' grew.

His teachings have been grossly misrepresented throughout the years until a man named Jesus came renewing the teachings exactly as Moses taught and also elaborating upon them.

And for those who say I always speak of only Jesus, see here that now I speak of Moses and quite elaborately.

And the phrase 'Children of Israel' (bani Israel) is a code name for "(the ones) with traits of the chief" where Israel is God. Israel comes from the root Sera. Is broken down in morphemes E ' Serayee ' L. So it means basically "son of the highest". You can take a look in a Classical Arabic lexicon for the same definition. The root to look for is Siin-Waw-Ra which gives you the right one, but also Siin-Ra-Ya gives the right one. Basically means "the elevated".

And sorry to those offended by the blunt truth. Ignore my post and live in your doctrine as you please.

Be well
Amenuel

A_Submitter

My own independent study shows Qatel means defeat, all the time, so that is my opinion. The word does therefore not disclose whether the person dies or not, only that the person is defeated, beaten.

I am basing this on searches in Classical Arabic lexicons and comparing contextually with Quran.

For example, Quran actually says that David/Dawood defeats Goliath.

In the same work I take it that the co-traveler with Moses does lecture the boy of the parents so that he in the future will not cause the problems that the narrative says. I would say in that sense that you would see it as "master the boy" like persuade him from his will.

Moses complains because the man is rowdy with the boy, perhaps he did flog or harshly discipline the boy so Moses reacted. Supposedly Moses would not even allow the man to continue traveling with him if he actually killed him.

In all the man did he taught Moses a lesson.

For example, the law of Moses says "do not seek to defeat (Qatel)", but the traveler showed that you it would be worse to let the boy continue to be disobedient and grow up perhaps as a criminal than to counter the boy early in life, and use defeating means.

The boat already comes across pretty well in the usual rendition, but it is that sometimes it is better to burn the ships than to let them fall into the wrong hands. Perhaps the boat was filled with valuable cargo that would finance a malicious ruler who would only wreak havoc with it. Moses thought only about the destruction of property.

Moses does also not kill a man in Egypt/Mesr but he tries to master his opposition as conveying he had a message as a prophet although he initially failed and those in authority made sure to conspire against him. This alternative story can be read by the Jewish ancient historian Josepheus who wrote in Greek. There is reason to believe him too because Qatel is used in the context where Moses is claimed to kill a man and it means "to defeat/master". I also read the same story of Moses in another book which I unfortunately forgot the name of.

That Moses killed a man is just a disgrace to his name.

However, before he got spiritually enlightened, Moses was more or less a warlord for the Pharaoh fighting in war. It was when he got deeper spiritually he got in trouble with the authorities and had to flee. Some people had began to recognize him as a prophet, among them his brother Aaron/Haroon, and the authorities were intimidated and as you know Pharaoh is a god representative on Earth in their belief.

And Moses ran off in the deserts until he met his wife and father-in-law Jethro (name according to sources), think you know the story about the well. There he nurtured his spiritual talent and Jethro was a priest (mentioned in sources too) and helped him too and Moses worked for him for some years. Eventually he felt a power or energy coming from a mountain and there he beheld a light from which a voice came. He was taught by God much about the nature of God (e.g. I am who I am) and told to go to the 'Children of Israel' and teach and train them in being (the one) 'Who Is'. So he convinced his father-in-law that he had to go and Jethro let him go with his wife. And God was was him actively the whole time so in that age you would have seen paranormal activity. And the assembly of the 'Children of Israel' grew.

His teachings have been grossly misrepresented throughout the years until a man named Jesus came renewing the teachings exactly as Moses taught and also elaborating upon them.

And for those who say I always speak of only Jesus, see here that now I speak of Moses and quite elaborately.

And the phrase 'Children of Israel' (bani Israel) is a code name for "(the ones) with traits of the chief" where Israel is God. Israel comes from the root Sera. Is broken down in morphemes E ' Serayee ' L. So it means basically "son of the highest". You can take a look in a Classical Arabic lexicon for the same definition. The root to look for is Siin-Waw-Ra which gives you the right one, but also Siin-Ra-Ya gives the right one. Basically means "the elevated".

And sorry to those offended by the blunt truth. Ignore my post and live in your doctrine as you please.

Be well
Amenuel

Didn't read whole, but read the part you claim Israel is God.

Do you have any proof from Quran?

We both know that God is not fed but He feeds, meaning He doesn't eat! So if He doesn't eat, how can there be a verse saying that "Israel" forbade for himself certain foods?

393 All the food was made permissible to the Children of Israel except
what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down.
Say ?Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.?

Your view of the truth is twisted

good_logic

Peace NK.

The most obvious one is Jesus. He came as a prophet to Beni Israeel.
There are others that have been killed between Moses and Jesus according to the bible,but Qoran does not confirm the stories.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Nk, I forgot to mention John the Baptist before Jesus in my last post.

NK

Salam Submitter,

You are right, I have mixed two things in the verse and I have corrected my mistake immediately when Good logic explained it in his answer.

Regarding children of Israel, you are also correct that it refers to the descendant of Jacobs. Even if you look for all those prophets after Jacob till Prophet Muhammad some of them they only rejected and some of them they tried to kill.

Rejected Yaqub, Shauib, Ayyub, Musa, Haron etc

Tried to kill Yusuf, Jesus, Muhammad etc.

Peace
NK

Man_of_Faith

Didn't read whole, but read the part you claim Israel is God.

Do you have any proof from Quran?

We both know that God is not fed but He feeds, meaning He doesn't eat! So if He doesn't eat, how can there be a verse saying that "Israel" forbade for himself certain foods?

393 All the food was made permissible to the Children of Israel except
what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down.
Say ?Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.?

Your view of the truth is twisted

Since when was Israel a prophet? You come with a translation saying "himself". There is some kind of gross misinterpretation that Yacoob was renamed Israel, but this is simply not true. So what does "Children of Israel" refer to then? A nation called Israel? No, it is a kind of code name for God, only apparent for the really perceptive.

The twisted truth is likely more with your "borrowed" interpretation from medieval clergymen.

Be well
Amenuel

Man_of_Faith

Peace NK.

The most obvious one is Jesus. He came as a prophet to Beni Israeel.
There are others that have been killed between Moses and Jesus according to the bible,but Qoran does not confirm the stories.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

The Bible does not confirm any particular killings of prophets either.

The truth is that the prophets were opposed and suppressed and that is what the Qatel is connoted to.

Be well
Amenuel

Man_of_Faith

Sorry I wrote to you, NK.

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.
According to you ,Qoran does not say what it says. Bible does not say what it says.

We already discussed "Kill" in another thread,so I am not going to waste your time and the readers time repeating my side of the argument.
However according to me,it is you who does not know what you say.
Nevertheless you are entitled to keep saying.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

A_Submitter

Since when was Israel a prophet? You come with a translation saying "himself". There is some kind of gross misinterpretation that Yacoob was renamed Israel, but this is simply not true. So what does "Children of Israel" refer to then? A nation called Israel? No, it is a kind of code name for God, only apparent for the really perceptive.

The twisted truth is likely more with your "borrowed" interpretation from medieval clergymen.

Be well
Amenuel

The translator is alive and not from medieval but today. Brother Layth, a devoted believer.

I find many of your interpretations quite twisted. To prove even further that your translation is twisted, let's have another look.

Christians and Jews claim they are the children of God. Be He glorified and exalted far above what they claim.

You say Israel is God. So in other words; "Children of Israel"="Children of God".

But God has condemned such claims...throughout the Quran, and especially with the Christians who say "three"...

Also

1120 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1121 Say ?He is God, the One,?
1122 ?God, the Indivisible,?
1123 ?He does not beget, nor was He begotten,?
1124 ?And there is none who is His equal.?

HE DOES NOT BEGET!

NK

The Bible does not confirm any particular killings of prophets either.

The truth is that the prophets were opposed and suppressed and that is what the Qatel is connoted to.

Be well
Amenuel

Salam Man of Faith,

Could you please explain a bit more. What do you think about Zechariah and John the Baptish killing in the bible?. For death of John the baptist please refer Mathew 14.

Peace,
NK

Man_of_Faith

Yes, I know John the Baptist was beheaded. I am quite knowledgeable about most anything in the Bible, knowing some by heart.

John (Yahya), Jesus and Zachariah are the only famous prophets I know of being killed. And they lived about the same time which seems to have been a restless era. These prophets liked to convey a purified message that the clergy did not appreciate. Took three good men to get that message through.

Yes, I know I wrote "no particular killings", but okay we can say a few killings over time. Abel was slain by his brother too, if we consider Abel a prophet.

Be well
Amenuel