WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all.

"And they ALL prostrated EXCEPT iblis"

It all comes back down to this simple knowledge of a sentence, the subject is "malaika"(controlling forces/faculties within the universe, man included)

The God's command was to the malaika, not anyone/anything else.

To refer to Iblis as being other than a "hidden(jinn) controlling force(malaika)", is to not take The God's statement seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.

unknownuser

Salaams,

This is what i think!

From another site

Aristotle took the ability to reason as the characteristic that distinguishes humans from other animals. Modern philosophers, including Descartes, Locke, Leibniz, also regarded the human capacity to reason as qualitatively different from the capacities of nonhuman animals. Descartes thought that animals' inability to reason is demonstrated by their inability to use LANGUAGE and he took this to show that animals are not sentient. However Locke and Leibniz, although they both maintained that animals are incapable of reason, both thought that animal perception is accompanied by some degree of consciousness. Hume thought that much human behavior required a degree of reasoning that could be matched by animals and he seemed to regard the sentience of animals as plainly evident.

1528 using lanes.
Behold! Thy Lord said to the Malaikaat "I am about to create a man, (from) who will speak, of a protective mode of life (law abider);

233
He said "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

Basically we where (All) I think Malaikaat before this so obeyed Allah via our Sub-Conscious totally, But on Getting the Conscious we became law abiders ?with our concsious,so the fighters/jinn in this case Ibliss didn?t want to submit to Adam and Law as he found it easier to get what he wants other ways.

Allah's Blessings on us.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MZ,

I am not sure I understood the entire post, but I do agree with the relationship of the malaikat to the sub conscious. And I also agree that human being comes from sub conscious to conscious and will return again to subconscious.

Subconscious is just another word for "SPIRIT/SOUL"

unknownuser

PEACE, Idol, Marie, /JM/, Noor, MZ357 and All

It remains a true mystery to me that, some here will continue to define Iblis as malaika when Allah clearly defines him of those created of a scorching wind--1527 and 1850. To define Iblis as malaika, is to undermine the credibility of Allah's Words. Allah, says that,--if we were to take all of the oceans, double them and turn them into ink and take all of the forests, double them and turn them into pens, we could not exhaust His Words. With this in mind then, why is it so difficult to to accept that Allah knows exactly what He is talking about when He chose the word Jinn to define Iblis? Did Allah err and you, who maintain that Iblis was a malaika, have corrected Him? Nowhere does Allah explicitly/definitively, refer to Iblis as malaika, however, He does explicitly/definitively, refer to him as one of the Jinns. In effect, to define Iblis contrary to how Allah has defined him, is to change Allah's Words.

Anyway, I discussed the following on a previous post and no one has yet put forth a credible response

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from menfor Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).

If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.

Now, if an angel went to the Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a particular Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to the Jinns and not just angel as a bearer of revelation.

If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they have helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices? An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun . You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.

I want to now pursue the ayats mentioning Solomon and the Jinn

2717 Soloman's troops, made up of jinn and men and birds, were assembled for him, paraded in tight ranks.

The key words, for me at least are

troops/junooduhu= body of soldiers/troops, collected body of men prepared for war.
Jinn=people of different far flung countries living detached from other civilized peopled; beings who remain aloof from other people, hence, making them inaccessible to view i.e. powerful people.
birds/ttayri= cavalry, swift animals, company of men.
ranks/yoozaAAoona= they were arranged in separate well-disciplined columns.

The ayat begins with defining what Solomon's hosts were--junooduhu, hence, what follows cannot be an aggregate of invisible fiery beings/jinn, human beings, and feathered creatures/birds. This makes no sense at all nor does history support any such fantastic notions.

The idea of "birds" symbolizing men is not new. Alexander Hislop, in his book, The Two Babylons writes

When we look at such figures as those which are here presented to the reader, with their great extent of expanded wing, as symbolising an Assyrian king, what a vividness and force does it give to the inspired language of the prophet! And how clear is it, also, that the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS, that was to "fill the breadth of Immanuel's land," has that very symbolic meaning to which I have referred--viz., the overspreading of the land by his "mighty ones," or hosts of armed men, that the king of Babylon was to bring with him in his overflowing invasion! ...Now, the understanding of this equivocal sense of "Baal-aberin" can alone explain the remarkable statement of Aristophanes, that at the beginning of the world "the birds" were first created, and then after their creation, came the "race of the blessed immortal gods." This has been regarded as either an atheistical or nonsensical utterance on the part of the poet, but, with the true key applied to the language, it is found to contain an important historical fact. Let it only be borne in mind that "the birds"--that is, the "winged ones"--symbolised "the Lords of the mighty ones," and then the meaning is clear, viz., that men first "began to be mighty on the earth"; and then, that the "Lords" or Leaders of "these mighty ones" were deified.

There leaves no doubt that, "birds", can only be referring to Solomon's cavalry of swift moving men, either on foot or horse or both.

Turning to the bible, 1Kings 513-17

Main Entry LEVY the enlistment or conscription of men for military service.

13] And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men.

And he sent them to Lebanon ten thousand a month by courses a month they were in Lebanon, and two months at home and Adoniram was over the levy.

And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;

Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.

And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

2Chrons. 217-18

Main Entry ALIEN a person of another family, race, or nation

17 Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600.

18 He assigned 70,000 of them to be carriers and 80,000 to be stonecutters in the hills, with 3,600 foremen over them to keep the people working.

The strangers/aliens mentioned in verse 17, describes exactly one of the main definitions of Jinn--people from other lands.

Allah, in Al-Quran states

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"

Once again turning to the bible the following verses support the above ayats

1Kings 513 King Solomon conscripted laborers from all Israel-thirty thousand men. 14 He sent them off to Lebanon in shifts of ten thousand a month, so that they spent one month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the forced labor. 15 Solomon had seventy thousand carriers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hills, 16 as well as thirty-three hundred foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen. 17 At the king's command they removed from the quarry large blocks of quality stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.

1Kings 7 13_15

13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,

14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.

15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17

2Chron. 46 He then made ten basins for washing and placed five on the south side and five on the north. In them the things to be used for the burnt offerings were rinsed, but the Sea was to be used by the priests for washing.

In conclusion, if the Jinn were other than homo sapien sapiens, then why is there no description of these...other than human creatures of fire or invisible fire, to be found in the bible concerning the building of Solomon's temple? Why is there no mention of these...other than human creatures mentioned anywhere in the historical records? On the contrary, the bible accounts are very close to the Quranic accounts concerning Solomon's building projects and no one worked on those projects other than...homo sapien sapiens...Jinn included.

Main Entry GENTILE Pronunciation 'jen-"tIl Etymology Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-,GENS-nation a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew HEATHEN, PAGAN

When I look at the word gentile-GENS , I cannot help but notice how close it resembles JINNS-GENS. Just a coincidence?...I don't think so. What better defines/describes the gentile world/peoples, than...fire free of smoke?

Looking forward to any critical analysis which would contradict these findings.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB and all,

YOur post was long so my response will be long, I ask everyone to be patinet and carefully read this response to see where the errors lie in PB's understanding. I hope that this careful response will put an end to this line of statements.

It remains a true mystery to me that, some here will continue to define Iblis as malaika when Allah clearly defines him of those created of a scorching wind--1527 and 1850. To define Iblis as malaika, is to undermine the credibility of Allah's Words. Allah, says that,--if we were to take all of the oceans, double them and turn them into ink and take all of the forests, double them and turn them into pens, we could not exhaust His Words. With this in mind then, why is it so difficult to to accept that Allah knows exactly what He is talking about when He chose the word Jinn to define Iblis? Did Allah err and you, who maintain that Iblis was a malaika, have corrected Him? Nowhere does Allah explicitly/definitively, refer to Iblis as malaika, however, He does explicitly/definitively, refer to him as one of the Jinns. In effect, to define Iblis contrary to how Allah has defined him, is to change Allah's Words.

Your error is one that is VERY simple, and you will continue to make this error as long as you refrain from TRANSLATING arabic words. The word "jinn" means covered. It is a DESCRIPTIVE WORD which described the condition of the controlling forces properly expressed(malaika) and the perverse forces (shayteen) which are controlling forces that are not properly expressed. These forces are COVERED from sight, just as another verse in this reading uses the root for "jinn" to describe the darkness that covers...

(676) So when the night covered(janna) on him...

So yes, Iblis is DESCRIBED as "jinn" , something covered, because ALL MALAIKA and SHAYTEEN are "jinn"(covered). This is the simple solution to your understanding, and it further does not contradict the clear fact that the God was addressing the MALAIKA when he told them to prostrate to Adam, the God does not punish innocent bystanders nor expect another suppossed group to know a command was for them also when the God only said "Malaika".

Anyway, I discussed the following on a previous post and no one has yet put forth a credible response

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

The statement "assembly of jinn and men" indicates to us that we have a physical part to us and a metaphysical(mental) part to us. The physical world is where we see human bodies, the metaphysical realm is where the controlling forces which are COVERED/HIDDEN reside. All physical realities come from thoughts and forces within.

2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from menfor Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).

Yes, inpsiration comes from WITHIN, from the forces of control from the God, and inspired MEN share this message EXTERNALLY with each other. Therefore there are messengers from within(mailaika) and from the outer realm(men). This is all part of the same Being.

If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.

YOur error stems from not understanding that "jinn' DESCIBES "malaika", the forces of control are COVERED/HIDDEN, they are not a seperate Being.

Now, if an angel went to the Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a particular Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to the Jinns and not just angel as a bearer of revelation.

Again, this is cleared up CLEARLY by understanding that "jinn" describes Malaika. No further explanation is required.

If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they have helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices?

Because "jinn" (hidden ones) are describing the FORCES of CONTROL which include THOUGHTS. YOu cant do anything without the proper IDEA(thoughts) + Energy to carry out the thought. Idea + Energy = Emotions(Energy in motion). This is the secret of Solomon that we are being taught, either you use your emotions or they use YOU.

An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun . You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.

I have reconciled it clearly, the question is will you accept the truth?

I want to now pursue the ayats mentioning Solomon and the Jinn

2717 Soloman's troops, made up of jinn and men and birds, were assembled for him, paraded in tight ranks.

Yes, jinn(hidden forces), men, and birds(high spiritual discipline)

The key words, for me at least are

troops/junooduhu= body of soldiers/troops, collected body of men prepared for war.
Jinn=people of different far flung countries living detached from other civilized peopled; beings who remain aloof from other people, hence, making them inaccessible to view i.e. powerful people.
birds/ttayri= cavalry, swift animals, company of men.
ranks/yoozaAAoona= they were arranged in separate well-disciplined columns.

These are definitions that are conjured based on the wrong ideas and are not consistent throughout he reading(quran) which is proof of thier incorrectness.

The ayat begins with defining what Solomon's hosts were--junooduhu, hence, what follows cannot be an aggregate of invisible fiery beings/jinn, human beings, and feathered creatures/birds. This makes no sense at all nor does history support any such fantastic notions.

History does not support any sticks turning to snakes , nor dead being brought to life, nor seas being split. SO in the same manner, we must first understand the METAPHOR. I am using my "troops" right now to destroy an incorrect argument. WHat better troops than correct thoughts achieved by spiritual discipline? And other men and women to back up the correct position?

The idea of "birds" symbolizing men is not new. Alexander Hislop, in his book, The Two Babylons writes

When we look at such figures as those which are here presented to the reader, with their great extent of expanded wing, as symbolising an Assyrian king, what a vividness and force does it give to the inspired language of the prophet! And how clear is it, also, that the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS, that was to "fill the breadth of Immanuel's land," has that very symbolic meaning to which I have referred--viz., the overspreading of the land by his "mighty ones," or hosts of armed men, that the king of Babylon was to bring with him in his overflowing invasion! ...Now, the understanding of this equivocal sense of "Baal-aberin" can alone explain the remarkable statement of Aristophanes, that at the beginning of the world "the birds" were first created, and then after their creation, came the "race of the blessed immortal gods." This has been regarded as either an atheistical or nonsensical utterance on the part of the poet, but, with the true key applied to the language, it is found to contain an important historical fact. Let it only be borne in mind that "the birds"--that is, the "winged ones"--symbolised "the Lords of the mighty ones," and then the meaning is clear, viz., that men first "began to be mighty on the earth"; and then, that the "Lords" or Leaders of "these mighty ones" were deified.

There leaves no doubt that, "birds", can only be referring to Solomon's cavalry of swift moving men, either on foot or horse or both.

Alexander should have studied a little more and he would have understood better the symbolism of "birds". The bird symbolized the awakened WILL of man, the ability to SEE/PERCIEVE correctly, the understanding that BREATH(birds have strong lungs) is the gateway to the Spirit(the realm of jinn), thus we have reSPIRation/Spirit/InSPIRation, etc. WHen one is emotional(not at peace) the breath is shallow and restricted to the chest area, when we focus on the breath and slow it down and make it deep and from the stomach, we regain our peace. There is MUCH more to be said about that but that is for another discussion.

Turning to the bible, 1Kings 513-17

Main Entry LEVY the enlistment or conscription of men for military service.

13] And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men.

And he sent them to Lebanon ten thousand a month by courses a month they were in Lebanon, and two months at home and Adoniram was over the levy.

And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;

Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.

And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

2Chrons. 217-18

Main Entry ALIEN a person of another family, race, or nation

17 Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600.

18 He assigned 70,000 of them to be carriers and 80,000 to be stonecutters in the hills, with 3,600 foremen over them to keep the people working.

The strangers/aliens mentioned in verse 17, describes exactly one of the main definitions of Jinn--people from other lands.

The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.

Allah, in Al-Quran states

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"

Once again turning to the bible the following verses support the above ayats

1Kings 513 King Solomon conscripted laborers from all Israel-thirty thousand men. 14 He sent them off to Lebanon in shifts of ten thousand a month, so that they spent one month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the forced labor. 15 Solomon had seventy thousand carriers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hills, 16 as well as thirty-three hundred foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen. 17 At the king's command they removed from the quarry large blocks of quality stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.

1Kings 7 13_15

13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,

14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.

15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17

2Chron. 46 He then made ten basins for washing and placed five on the south side and five on the north. In them the things to be used for the burnt offerings were rinsed, but the Sea was to be used by the priests for washing.

In conclusion, if the Jinn were other than homo sapien sapiens, then why is there no description of these...other than human creatures of fire or invisible fire, to be found in the bible concerning the building of Solomon's temple? Why is there no mention of these...other than human creatures mentioned anywhere in the historical records? On the contrary, the bible accounts are very close to the Quranic accounts concerning Solomon's building projects and no one worked on those projects other than...homo sapien sapiens...Jinn included.

Since the word "jinn" is a DESCRIPTION of the forces of control which are HIDDEN, there will not be any PHYSICAL mention of something that does not exsist as a being. "Jinn" are describing the malaika and shayteen which are WITHIN MEN and the physical world. They are the MOVING FORCES of the CREATION. SO one would only SEE human beings who are POSSESSED/INSPIRED by these forces, thats all. D

Main Entry GENTILE Pronunciation 'jen-"tIl Etymology Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-,GENS-nation a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew HEATHEN, PAGAN

When I look at the word gentile-GENS , I cannot help but notice how close it resembles JINNS-GENS. Just a coincidence?...I don't think so. What better defines/describes the gentile world/peoples, than...fire free of smoke?

I see no connection at all.

Looking forward to any critical analysis which would contradict these findings.

I have answered all of your questions with a clear and incontradictory understanding. We are back where we started, your theory still contradicts while the truth remains clear from falsehood. The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL

Your theories make precious little sense. You've defining things as you wish and not as Allah has defined them and, have simply ignored both secular and scriptural historical corroboration altogehter. At this point it would be helpful if you would name the sources of your "theories" so that I can examine what they are saying. If you cannot provide authoritative corroboration for your position, then you are simply proferring metaphysical/theosophical mysticisms as Quranic truths and that is not acceptable. You must now ground your theories in concrete evidence, otherwise, you must concede that you do not know what you are talking about and that all you have been doing to this point is aggressively conjecturing.

The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?

How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka? Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.

The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.

Of course it confirms my understanding of the Jinn. One of the MAIN definitions of Jinn is..."foreign people". If one is foreign, then one is hidden, that is, inaccessible to view until coming into view. Show me some authority where it states jinn and malaika are not different beings, thanks.

Your ideas remind me of book I read many years ago--"The Mysteries of Genesis", ever hear of it? A good deal of what the authored proffered I can agree with. He uses the "metaphorical" in a more grounded way than you, but you are close. What I mean is he takes the literal and sees the metaphorical at the same time, if that is clear to you.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

Your theories make precious little sense. You've defining things as you wish and not as Allah has defined them and, have simply ignored both secular and scriptural historical corroboration altogehter. At this point it would be helpful if you would name the sources of your "theories" so that I can examine what they are saying. If you cannot provide authoritative corroboration for your position, then you are simply proferring metaphysical/theosophical mysticisms as Quranic truths and that is not acceptable. You must now ground your theories in concrete evidence, otherwise, you must concede that you do not know what you are talking about and that all you have been doing to this point is aggressively conjecturing.

I do not understand what it is you are looking for. You have to really be looking for the answer to get what I am saying. I think you might be so stuck on your theory that you are unwilling to make the connections that you must make to understand this. It does not take long to sit back and monitor the thoughts in your head. Just take some time tonight and do that. Think about why the God says in one verse "When you are alone with your shayteen you say -We are really with you..."

These are the forces of control not expressed correctly, while the proper thoughts would have been described as malaika. And all of these faculties are hidden(jinn).

There's not going to be too much concreteness in something that is clearly described as COVERED/HIDDEN. What you fail to realize is that if human beings were "jinn" then that means that NO ONE could see them. I am sure that they are not HIDDEN to thier own families. Is the God's guidance not for thier families as well? Or are they invisible even to thier own families?

Quote
The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?

How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka?

That is just the question that you need to ask yourself, WHY doesn't the God address tha nature of malaika? Becuase malaika and shayteen are both parts of the group "jinn" (hidden ones), which has been described.

Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.

Again, I do not understand what concrete evidence you want from that which is HIDDEN. I do not have the power to change the God's design in order to convince you. You have to take the responsibility of convincing your own person.

Quote
The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.

Of course it confirms my understanding of the Jinn. One of the MAIN definitions of Jinn is..."foreign people". If one is foreign, then one is hidden, that is, inaccessible to view until coming into view. Show me some authority where it states jinn and malaika are not different beings, thanks.

Again, a human cannot be foriegn to everyone, so it is not a consistent description and therefore fails. This message is for EVERYONE, there is no one "foriegn" enough to be left out and merely created so you can call them "jinn".

I would like to know how you understand the story of Adam. Adam is symbolizing mankind, so are you saying that a "foreigner" refused to prostrate to mankind? A "foriegner" who is somehow outside of mankind(adam)? I do not think that you properly thought this through.

Your ideas remind me of book I read many years ago--"The Mysteries of Genesis", ever hear of it? A good deal of what the authored proffered I can agree with. He uses the "metaphorical" in a more grounded way than you, but you are close. What I mean is he takes the literal and sees the metaphorical at the same time, if that is clear to you.

I am not sure what it is the bothers you about me and my reasoning process, but lets stick to the facts. I have given you the literal, all you have to do is be aware of your thoughts, literally.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Thank you for your response. Let's continue.

I do not understand what it is you are looking for. You have to really be looking for the answer to get what I am saying. I think you might be so stuck on your theory that you are unwilling to make the connections that you must make to understand this. It does not take long to sit back and monitor the thoughts in your head. Just take some time tonight and do that. Think about why the God says in one verse "When you are alone with your shayteen you say -We are really with you..." These are the forces of control not expressed correctly, while the proper thoughts would have been described as malaika.

I don't have any problem with you or the author of "The Mysteries of Genesis, extrapolating from the literal to the metaphorical, however, the difference between the author/myself and you is, you deny that the jinn are referring to homo sapien sapiens but are disembodied thoughts. I'm proffering that the Jinn, being made of fire free of smoke, is referring to a particular aggregate of thoughts which give them their character/mindset apart from men and malaika. It is the same with man being "created of haste". Does not man exist as a created being? so "haste", as with "fire free of smoke", are metaphors/Quranic expressions for mindsets/characters. Hence, the Jinn as with man must also exist as objective sentient entities i.e. homo sapien sapiens.

There's not going to be too much concreteness in something that is clearly described as COVERED/HIDDEN.

What I still need from you, which you are reluctant to give me is, some corroborative sources for your theory. Without some authoritative corroborative evidence/support, your theory can only be regarded as nothing more that you own conjecture.

What you fail to realize is that if human beings were "jinn" then that means that NO ONE could see them.

Exactly where we depart on the issue of Jinn! I do not regard them as invisible by nature that is Arabian Nights stuff. I maintain the Jinn, that is, this nature called Jinn, is a particular mindset/character. Of course, people can disguise their natures sometimes making their nature invisible, however, as a people, the Jinn must share a mindset in common. For me that nature/mindset/character is predominantly "passion/sense/physical oriented".

PRIEST How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka?

That is just the question that you need to ask yourself, WHY doesn't the God address tha nature of malaika? Becuase malaika and shayteen are both parts of the group "jinn" (hidden ones), which has been described.

Well, if this is the case, then you need to bring your borhan/corrobative evidence to bear out your assumption. Just your stating this does not make your theory valid. We don't know why Allah didn't describe the natures of the malaika, however, He does tell us, unlike Jinns and men, they do not disobey Him. That speaks volumes to me, in that, if malaika and jinn were all the same thing, then the ayat where Allah says the malaika don't disobey or show pride, would not be true. I don't expect you to accept ayat 1649-50 anymore than you accept that 1850 defines Iblis as a Jinn and not a malaika. In fact, your theory hinges on denial of ayats 1649-50 and 1850.

PRIEST Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.

Again, I do not understand what concrete evidence you want from that which is HIDDEN. I do not have the power to change the God's design in order to convince you. You have to take the responsibility of convincing your own person.

No, you must take responsibility for Quranically defending your theory. You must provide corroborative evidence for your assumptions. You can make an assumption you wish, but you must prove it not me. I'm not here to prove your theory, that is your task. So, I ask you once again

If the malika and Jinn and not different beings, then, is it your position that they too were created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide ayats from Al-Quran as evidence to support your notion.

Again, a human cannot be foriegn to everyone, so it is not a consistent description and therefore fails. This message is for EVERYONE, there is no one "foriegn" enough to be left out and merely created so you can call them "jinn".

"Foreign", in this sense, is referring more on spiritual level than a physical one, meaning, the Jinn who worked for Solomon, were either not living by Allah's Law either by ignorance of the Law or rejection of it. Lands/peoples foreign to Solomon would therefore be Jinns.

I would like to know how you understand the story of Adam. Adam is symbolizing mankind, so are you saying that a "foreigner" refused to prostrate to mankind? A "foriegner" who is somehow outside of mankind(adam)? I do not think that you properly thought this through.

Metaphorically, speaking

The Jinn represent the id/drives/appetites/passions/"fire"-nar, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature.

The Malaika represent the conscience/drive for perfection/internal punisher, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature.

Adam represents the ego/balance between the Jinn nature and Malaika nature, inherent in homo sapien sapien nature.

The Tree represents a people and their worldview/philosophy, specifically, the Iblis lead Jinn people, who are astray either because of ignorance or design.

The Jinn, therefore, as a people before Adam, were more id/drive/passion dominated. The Jinn nature given it orientation, could not be in charge of the earth because they would cause more damage than not, hence, the need for a Khalifa/Successor--Adam , one who would come to bring balance and an orientation toward submission to a Divine Law, in other words--a "cooler being".

Of course this theory needs work, but it is much more coherent and in alignment with Al-Quran than your own.

I am not sure what it is the bothers you about me and my reasoning process, but lets stick to the facts. I have given you the literal, all you have to do is be aware of your thoughts, literally.

What bothers me is that you have yet to provide any corrobative evidence for your theory, hence, it is no more than just flowery discourse and conjecture.

I don't have any problem with being aware of my thoughts LOL!, after all, isn't that why Allah sent the Prophets, Messengers and Books in the first place? No, our discussion/issue is...are the Jinn representative of a particular mindset/character/ of homo sapien sapiens or...something else independent of homo sapien sapiens.

Bring some authoritative/corroborative evidence in next your next response or simply concede that your position is not Quranically sound.

Looking forward to your comments, peace.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

Please realize as you try to put make jinn into one type of character, that there is a verse that states of the jinn "there are some that are righteous and some that follow a different path".

The Jinn represent the id/drives/appetites/passions/"fire"-nar, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature

I thought you said they were foriegners?

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL

Please realize as you try to put make jinn into one type of character, that there is a verse that states of the jinn "there are some that are righteous and some that follow a different path".

Their overall character/nature is given to their passions/desires. This, in and of itself , is not bad or evil, but if the homo sapien sapien were to remain on that level, this nature would incline more and more towards
evil/rebellion/nonsubmision. This is why Adam and the prophets/messengers/books were/are necessary. The Jinn, in my view, who would follow the law of Allah...would become..."human", meaning, divinely oriented, submissive, cool of nature, balanced. The Jinn who would not follow Allah's Laws, in my view, are represented by the "tree"

The Tree represents a people and their worldview/philosophy, specifically, the Iblis lead Jinn people, who are astray either because of ignorance or design.

I thought you said they were foriegners?

Once again, you didn't take time to read/think about my post. Don't be hasty. This is what I said regarding foriegners

"Foreign", in this sense, is referring more on spiritual level than a physical one, meaning, the Jinn who worked for Solomon, were either not living by Allah's Law, either by ignorance of the Law or rejection of it. Lands/peoples foreign to Solomon would therefore be Jinns.

I'm still awaiting your corroborative evidence for your theory/assumptions...is it soon forthcoming?

Fahad1

salam PRIEST_BOKMEI.

WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

Given your analysis of messenger, how does your analysis take into account the following analysis by me. Please pay special attention to ayats 6130 and 2275

Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings

12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?

1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger

2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).

2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things)....

...Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them.

2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .

1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them
was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to
be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.

1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind .
in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states .
thats my opinion.

My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.

what "homo sapien sapiens" ?

unknownuser

PEACE, SALADIN

2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .

1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.

1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind . in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states . thats my opinion.

Thank you for your reply.

This is what I am trying to flesh out. In that, Allah says that He chooses messengers from angels and me, nowhere does He say that He chooses Jinn as messengers. If Jinn, had their own species specific messengers, then Allah would have had to have said..."I choose angels, jinn and men as rasuls", otherwise, a discrepancy occurs between 2275 and 6130. Given that the Jinn are on earth , ayat 1795 reinforces 2275 that the Jinn are not a non-human species, otherwise, they would have to have their own species specific messengers. I'm not asking you to engage me in debate over this, I just wanted your view on messengership and to make me aware of any holes in my analysis of the identity of the Jinn.

Homo sapien sapiens, is the scientific name for anatomically modern man dating back some 200,000 years or more. I use this in contrast to human being because I think that human being speaks to a certain spiritual/moral development within the homo sapien sapien. In other words, in my estimation, all human beings are homo sapien sapien, but not all homo sapien sapiens are human beings, do you see my point?

Thank you for your comments and I won't ask you to respond beyond what you have already unless you have the mind to of course. Don't worry, I'm not looking for a debate, I just wanted your view on messengership, and to make me aware of anything which you may perceive as holes in my analysis. Would appreciate any ideas.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Peace be upon you PB,

I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.

I'm sorry that you will not continue to participate in the discussion. My request of you, which I'm disappointed you did not honor, was to bring some corroborative evidence for your theory. You must understand that to simply say "something is this" or "something is that" and then to ask people to accept it without supporting authoritative corroboration, is asking a great deal. Even Allah commands us not to follow His Words without seeking corroboration from His creation--am I correct?. Unless you can provide some meaningful corroboration for your theory, it cannot even be considered an opinion, but rather, just your impressions.

Can you or can you not provide corroboration for your theory? That really is a yes or no answer. If yes, then please provide it, thanks.

Peace, bro.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I'm sorry that you will not continue to participate in the discussion. My request of you, which I'm disappointed you did not honor, was to bring some corroborative evidence for your theory.

Honor? There is no duty for me to honor your persistent questioning, it is my choice to decide if I will continue to engage in this debate or not. I simply stated that when you finished getting your thoughts together, because at this point you are still guessing, still "fleshing things out", then I would rejoin the debate.

You must understand that to simply say "something is this" or "something is that" and then to ask people to accept it without supporting authoritative corroboration, is asking a great deal.

Well, what you fail to see this that supporting evidence is given, and there are many people who have accepted this understanding , wether by my statements or by thier own studies.

Even Allah commands us not to follow His Words without seeking corroboration from His creation--am I correct?. Unless you can provide some meaningful corroboration for your theory, it cannot even be considered an opinion, but rather, just your impressions.

Brother, it is not my job to MAKE you see, I can only remind and warn, I can only try to make it as clear as possible. YOu must realize that when I talk about the hidden/covered beings (jinn) it is referring to something UNSEEN, like one talking about WIND. All I can really show is the EFFECTS, because the WIND itself is HIDDEN.

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan). Its like the forces of nature, when we understand them we can harness thier power for benefit in our lives, or we can also not express them correctly to our demise. The same thing goes on WITHIN the human being, and that is what is being explained to us in these metaphors. We have urges within us all, and if we give them the right expression, we are in control, like one who is in a garden doing the necessary work to get a good result, or we can give them the wrong expression and the weeds can come up and choke the new growth, or the animals(emotions) can eat up out "fruits", etc.

Can you or can you not provide corroboration for your theory? That really is a yes or no answer. If yes, then please provide it, thanks.

Brother, I think it would be best if you finished with your position first, then we can enter into debate with complete ideas, rather than you trying t o tear down my position while you are unsure where you are going with your position. I will leave you with this;

(3124) When you say to the trusting, "Is it not enough/sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the forces of control sent descending?"

Does the God send Homo Sapien Sapiens , three thousand of them, to help you from the sky? Or does the God descend the proper forces from within your being to help you deal with the situation (i.e. proper thoughts , perception, etc).

I guess if you still require this corrobative proof, then give me an example of the proof you require by using the WIND as your example, because I am unsure what you are looking for.

Until then, I will take a back seat to this debate, I see no reason to continue with last years back and forth discussions. I am satisfied with my position and will state it only when it is beneficial.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL

Honor? There is no duty for me to honor your persistent questioning, it is my choice to decide if I will continue to engage in this debate or not. I simply stated that when you finished getting your thoughts together, because at this point you are still guessing, still "fleshing things out", then I would rejoin the debate.

LOL! persistent questioning is what discussion/debate is all about, no? Anyway...

Well, what you fail to see this that supporting evidence is given, and there are many people who have accepted this understanding , wether by my statements or by thier own studies.

And that is fine by me; obviously, they don't require corroboration, but I do. Most people love fantastic theoris, it's interesting, I'm just not like that.

Brother, it is not my job to MAKE you see, I can only remind and warn, I can only try to make it as clear as possible. YOu must realize that when I talk about the hidden/covered beings (jinn) it is referring to something UNSEEN, like one talking about WIND. All I can really show is the EFFECTS, because the WIND itself is HIDDEN.

No, your job is not to make ME see, but, your job is to bring some meaning corroboration for your claims i.e. PROOF. Allah says..."bring your convincing proof"... to date, you haven't met this requirement, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that whatever the "composition" of thoughts are that they are hidden until they mamifest themselves in some apparent way, however, that still doesn't exclude Jinn as meaning a definite sentient being, whom, I refer to being homo s. s. Jinn, for me, is a particular aggregate of thoughts which manifest in a "particular way of thinking/mindset".

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan). Its like the forces of nature, when we understand them we can harness thier power for benefit in our lives, or we can also not express them correctly to our demise.

Are you suggesting that there exists a negative force in nature independent of/external of the homo sapien sapiens brain?

What do you mean by "beings"? Are you asserting "beings"="thoughts" ? Your interpretation of m-l-k is a super stretch and that is why you cannot find any corroboration for it

The same thing goes on WITHIN the human being, and that is what is being explained to us in these metaphors. We have urges within us all, and if we give them the right expression, we are in control, like one who is in a garden doing the necessary work to get a good result, or we can give them the wrong expression and the weeds can come up and choke the new growth, or the animals(emotions) can eat up out "fruits", etc.

Well, you are making my point here! I'm positing, and have been doing so since day one that, the Jinn homo s.s. have a particular predominating mindset, meaning, they tend to be "urge/id/self" oriented, as opposed to Allah/Law oriented. These are brain based mindsets not disembodied positive and negative energies floating in the ether.

Brother, I think it would be best if you finished with your position first, then we can enter into debate with complete ideas, rather than you trying t o tear down my position while you are unsure where you are going with your position. I will leave you with this;

You don't need to wait until I complete my project to corroborate your own, that is a red-herring on your part. I can work on my theory and, at the same time, examine yours, one has nothing to do with other. So, I ask you again...please provide some authoritative corroboration for your theory, thanks again. You can start with providing corroboration for your maintaining that Iblis was of the malaika and not the Jinn, as Quran explicited states that he is. Who, of note, subscribes to that notion which is part of your overall theory? Please post his or her's statements so that I may read it. Perhaps that individual will be clearer than you and then I'll get it. Btw, I have not tried to tear down your theory, however, I do want you to prove it.

(3124) When you say to the trusting, "Is it not enough/sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the forces of control sent descending?"

And...your point is....what? There's a great deal that can be construed from that ayat, specifically, Allah is our Protector.

Does the God send Homo Sapien Sapiens , three thousand of them, to help you from the sky? Or does the God descend the proper forces from within your being to help you deal with the situation (i.e. proper thoughts , perception, etc).

I don't know what those forces were, other than being malaika, and neither do you. However, I do agree with you here . If one trusts Allah, then one follows the principles/laws-malaika which He has set in motion. So, does shaitan send down negative thought/forces as Allah sends down good ones? Does shaitan exist independent of homo s.s. as does Allah? Has Allah created negative forces?

I guess if you still require this corrobative proof, then give me an example of the proof you require by using the WIND as your example, because I am unsure what you are looking for.

My position is very clear

Iblis was of the Jinn and not the malaika.
The nature of the Jinn is known but the malaika is not, hence, Iblis, cannot be a malaika.
The forces/laws of creation/malaika, cannot disobey Allah. A law/principle/malaika, is immutable, hence, once again, iblis/the Jinn, cannot be malaika because he chose to do something to disobey Allah's command. If he were truly a law/priciple/malaika, this could not have happened.
Jinn, in my understanding, is a mindset of homo s.s., period.
I posted the ayat where Allah says that the Jinn built basins, reservoirs and worked with molten brass, yet, you want to assert that these were "disembodied thoughts" were doing these labors.

Your position/theory runs counter to items 1-3 & 5 which are clearly/explicitly stated in Quran. To date, you have not provided any Quranic corroboration for your going against explicit ayats. Hence, until you do so, your theory remains purely a product of your own fertile imagination and not Quranic truth.

Until then, I will take a back seat to this debate, I see no reason to continue with last years back and forth discussions. I am satisfied with my position and will state it only when it is beneficial.

Well, if you are satisfied with a position which Al-Quran does not corroborate, well, there is nothing I can say which could dissuade you from your position. I'll leave you with this

2124 Or, have they taken gods besides Him? Say Bring your proof; this is the reminder of those with me and the reminder of those before me. Nay! most of them do not know the truth, so they turn aside.

And just in case you suggest that I'm using the the above ayat out of context because it mentions gods and you don't see yourself as one, just ponder the following ayat

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion/impulse? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

Until you bring convincing proof, meaning, Allah's ayats, for why you have gone against explicit ayats, then you are simply following your own passion/impulse/imaJINNation.

Looking forward to your reply...bring ayats, thanks.

wildguest1956

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan).

So, according to you, there are 2 kinds of jinn

malaika positive ones
shaytaan negative ones
This implies that malaika are jinn.

We now the jinn have been created from fire.
Does this mean that the malaika (and the shaytaan) have been created from fire too ?

Peace

The forces/laws of creation/malaika, cannot disobey Allah. A law/principle/malaika, is immutable, hence, once again, iblis/the Jinn, cannot be malaika because he chose to do something to disobey Allah's command. If he were truly a law/priciple/malaika, this could not have happened.

IMHO, There are 2 levels of submission

submitting to the will of God
submitting to the commands of God (the Quran)

submitting to the commands of God

Only the humans can refuse to submit to the commands of God, if they refuse to obey what God has revealed in the Quran.
God has created the human being endowed with free will = the ability of choosing to obey or not the commands of God.
Iblis symbolises the force (into the human's mind) leading men to disobeying to the commands of God.

submitting to the will of God

But Everything in the universe submits to the will of God.

And to God submit all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.
When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

God knows best,
Peace

unknownuser

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

wildguest1956

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

As I understand, Iblis symbolizes the forces that leads man to disobey to God's commands.

Maybe Parwez and Asad explain it better than I.

Parwez's exposition of verse
(15) All that there is in the universe submits to Allahs laws (3/82). Things belonging to the physical universe submit to these laws through instinctive urge without any external coercion (41/11). Human beings also obey physical laws they have no choice in it. For instance, a man may walk in any direction at his will but he cannot change the direction of his shadow. So far as Divine Values are concerned, it is open to them to obey or reject them. Those who reject them are eventually forced by necessity to comply with them.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_013.htm

Asad's commentary on verse
The expression yasjud ("prostrates himself" or "prostrate themselves") is a metonym for complete submission to His will (Zamakhshari), that is, to the natural laws decreed by Him with regard to everything that exists. According to most of the classical commentators, those who submit to God willingly (i.e., consciously) are the angels and the believers, whereas the deniers of the truth, who are "not willing" to submit to Him, are nevertheless, without being conscious of it, subject to His will. However, in view of the subsequent reference to "shadows" it is logical to assume that the relative pronoun man relates in this context not merely to conscious beings but also to all other physical objects, whether animate or inanimate-i.e., to "all things and beings that are in the heavens and on earth". (See also 16 48-49 and 22 18.)
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/013

Asad's commentary on verse
I.e., they must, by virtue of their nature, obey the impulses implanted in them by God and are, therefore, incapable of what is described as "sinning". Man, however, is fundamentally different in this respect. In contrast with the natural sinlessness of "every beast that moves, and the angels", man is endowed with free will in the moral sense of this term he can choose between right and wrong and therefore he can, and often does, sin. But even while he sins he is subject to the universal law of cause and effect instituted by God and referred to in the Qur'an as sunnat Alldh ("God's way") hence the Qur'anic statement that "before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in the heavens and on earth" (13 15).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/016

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong).
When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

Asad's note on verse
For an explanation of the name of the Fallen Angel, see surah 7, note 10. The fact of this "rebellion", repeatedly stressed in the Qur'an, has led some of the commentators to the conclusion that he could not have been one of the angels, since these are incapable of sinning "they do not bear themselves with false pride. .. and they do whatever they are bidden to do" (16 49-50). As against this, other commentators point to the Qur'anic phrasing of God's command to the angels and of Iblis' refusal to obey, which makes it absolutely clear that at the time of that command he was indeed one of the heavenly host. Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God (see note 31 on 15 41).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/002a

Hope it is clearer now.

You can also have a look at QXP http//www.galaxydastak.com/QXP%202nd%20edition%206-18-03.doc

Peace

unknownuser

BOKMEI The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong). When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

This for me, is the crux issue of the dispute between Idol, Ayman, Carrot and now yourself and me.

Contradiction/Discrepancy 1

The malaika cannot disobey Allah's commands or His Will. 1649-50
Iblis, cannot disobey Allah's Will, but can and did disobey His command.
Iblis, therefore, could not possibly be of the malaika.

To date, Idol has not yet resolved this contradiction in his position.

In addition, you asked and so did I, but Idol was not able to respond with Ayats but with conjecture/extrapolation, meaning, if Iblis was of the malaika, are the malaika also created of fire free of smoke?

Contradiction/Discrepancy 2

The Jinn, according to Al-Quran, preceded "man" and were created of fire free of smoke.
Iblis, according to ayat 1850, was of the Jinn.
Hence, he too was created of fire free of smoke.
Hence, he could not be of the malaika.

Nothing in Al-Quran corroborates the notion that Iblis was of the malaika. Idol, and those who support his assertion that he was, have yet to produce the ayat where Allah explicitly states that. Allah, makes explicit statements about the malaika in 1649-50 and Iblis in 1850.

I don't see how it is possible to advance Idol's assertion/theory until he can resolve the above contradictions/discrepancies with clear ayats/proof regarding the composition of the malaika.

482 Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancies.

Idol's theory creates two discrepancies.

Looking forward to your response.