WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL

Please realize as you try to put make jinn into one type of character, that there is a verse that states of the jinn "there are some that are righteous and some that follow a different path".

Their overall character/nature is given to their passions/desires. This, in and of itself , is not bad or evil, but if the homo sapien sapien were to remain on that level, this nature would incline more and more towards
evil/rebellion/nonsubmision. This is why Adam and the prophets/messengers/books were/are necessary. The Jinn, in my view, who would follow the law of Allah...would become..."human", meaning, divinely oriented, submissive, cool of nature, balanced. The Jinn who would not follow Allah's Laws, in my view, are represented by the "tree"

The Tree represents a people and their worldview/philosophy, specifically, the Iblis lead Jinn people, who are astray either because of ignorance or design.

I thought you said they were foriegners?

Once again, you didn't take time to read/think about my post. Don't be hasty. This is what I said regarding foriegners

"Foreign", in this sense, is referring more on spiritual level than a physical one, meaning, the Jinn who worked for Solomon, were either not living by Allah's Law, either by ignorance of the Law or rejection of it. Lands/peoples foreign to Solomon would therefore be Jinns.

I'm still awaiting your corroborative evidence for your theory/assumptions...is it soon forthcoming?

Fahad1

salam PRIEST_BOKMEI.

WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

Given your analysis of messenger, how does your analysis take into account the following analysis by me. Please pay special attention to ayats 6130 and 2275

Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings

12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?

1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger

2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).

2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things)....

...Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them.

2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .

1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them
was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to
be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.

1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind .
in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states .
thats my opinion.

My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.

what "homo sapien sapiens" ?

unknownuser

PEACE, SALADIN

2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .

1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.

1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind . in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states . thats my opinion.

Thank you for your reply.

This is what I am trying to flesh out. In that, Allah says that He chooses messengers from angels and me, nowhere does He say that He chooses Jinn as messengers. If Jinn, had their own species specific messengers, then Allah would have had to have said..."I choose angels, jinn and men as rasuls", otherwise, a discrepancy occurs between 2275 and 6130. Given that the Jinn are on earth , ayat 1795 reinforces 2275 that the Jinn are not a non-human species, otherwise, they would have to have their own species specific messengers. I'm not asking you to engage me in debate over this, I just wanted your view on messengership and to make me aware of any holes in my analysis of the identity of the Jinn.

Homo sapien sapiens, is the scientific name for anatomically modern man dating back some 200,000 years or more. I use this in contrast to human being because I think that human being speaks to a certain spiritual/moral development within the homo sapien sapien. In other words, in my estimation, all human beings are homo sapien sapien, but not all homo sapien sapiens are human beings, do you see my point?

Thank you for your comments and I won't ask you to respond beyond what you have already unless you have the mind to of course. Don't worry, I'm not looking for a debate, I just wanted your view on messengership, and to make me aware of anything which you may perceive as holes in my analysis. Would appreciate any ideas.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

Peace be upon you PB,

I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.

I'm sorry that you will not continue to participate in the discussion. My request of you, which I'm disappointed you did not honor, was to bring some corroborative evidence for your theory. You must understand that to simply say "something is this" or "something is that" and then to ask people to accept it without supporting authoritative corroboration, is asking a great deal. Even Allah commands us not to follow His Words without seeking corroboration from His creation--am I correct?. Unless you can provide some meaningful corroboration for your theory, it cannot even be considered an opinion, but rather, just your impressions.

Can you or can you not provide corroboration for your theory? That really is a yes or no answer. If yes, then please provide it, thanks.

Peace, bro.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I'm sorry that you will not continue to participate in the discussion. My request of you, which I'm disappointed you did not honor, was to bring some corroborative evidence for your theory.

Honor? There is no duty for me to honor your persistent questioning, it is my choice to decide if I will continue to engage in this debate or not. I simply stated that when you finished getting your thoughts together, because at this point you are still guessing, still "fleshing things out", then I would rejoin the debate.

You must understand that to simply say "something is this" or "something is that" and then to ask people to accept it without supporting authoritative corroboration, is asking a great deal.

Well, what you fail to see this that supporting evidence is given, and there are many people who have accepted this understanding , wether by my statements or by thier own studies.

Even Allah commands us not to follow His Words without seeking corroboration from His creation--am I correct?. Unless you can provide some meaningful corroboration for your theory, it cannot even be considered an opinion, but rather, just your impressions.

Brother, it is not my job to MAKE you see, I can only remind and warn, I can only try to make it as clear as possible. YOu must realize that when I talk about the hidden/covered beings (jinn) it is referring to something UNSEEN, like one talking about WIND. All I can really show is the EFFECTS, because the WIND itself is HIDDEN.

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan). Its like the forces of nature, when we understand them we can harness thier power for benefit in our lives, or we can also not express them correctly to our demise. The same thing goes on WITHIN the human being, and that is what is being explained to us in these metaphors. We have urges within us all, and if we give them the right expression, we are in control, like one who is in a garden doing the necessary work to get a good result, or we can give them the wrong expression and the weeds can come up and choke the new growth, or the animals(emotions) can eat up out "fruits", etc.

Can you or can you not provide corroboration for your theory? That really is a yes or no answer. If yes, then please provide it, thanks.

Brother, I think it would be best if you finished with your position first, then we can enter into debate with complete ideas, rather than you trying t o tear down my position while you are unsure where you are going with your position. I will leave you with this;

(3124) When you say to the trusting, "Is it not enough/sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the forces of control sent descending?"

Does the God send Homo Sapien Sapiens , three thousand of them, to help you from the sky? Or does the God descend the proper forces from within your being to help you deal with the situation (i.e. proper thoughts , perception, etc).

I guess if you still require this corrobative proof, then give me an example of the proof you require by using the WIND as your example, because I am unsure what you are looking for.

Until then, I will take a back seat to this debate, I see no reason to continue with last years back and forth discussions. I am satisfied with my position and will state it only when it is beneficial.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL

Honor? There is no duty for me to honor your persistent questioning, it is my choice to decide if I will continue to engage in this debate or not. I simply stated that when you finished getting your thoughts together, because at this point you are still guessing, still "fleshing things out", then I would rejoin the debate.

LOL! persistent questioning is what discussion/debate is all about, no? Anyway...

Well, what you fail to see this that supporting evidence is given, and there are many people who have accepted this understanding , wether by my statements or by thier own studies.

And that is fine by me; obviously, they don't require corroboration, but I do. Most people love fantastic theoris, it's interesting, I'm just not like that.

Brother, it is not my job to MAKE you see, I can only remind and warn, I can only try to make it as clear as possible. YOu must realize that when I talk about the hidden/covered beings (jinn) it is referring to something UNSEEN, like one talking about WIND. All I can really show is the EFFECTS, because the WIND itself is HIDDEN.

No, your job is not to make ME see, but, your job is to bring some meaning corroboration for your claims i.e. PROOF. Allah says..."bring your convincing proof"... to date, you haven't met this requirement, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that whatever the "composition" of thoughts are that they are hidden until they mamifest themselves in some apparent way, however, that still doesn't exclude Jinn as meaning a definite sentient being, whom, I refer to being homo s. s. Jinn, for me, is a particular aggregate of thoughts which manifest in a "particular way of thinking/mindset".

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan). Its like the forces of nature, when we understand them we can harness thier power for benefit in our lives, or we can also not express them correctly to our demise.

Are you suggesting that there exists a negative force in nature independent of/external of the homo sapien sapiens brain?

What do you mean by "beings"? Are you asserting "beings"="thoughts" ? Your interpretation of m-l-k is a super stretch and that is why you cannot find any corroboration for it

The same thing goes on WITHIN the human being, and that is what is being explained to us in these metaphors. We have urges within us all, and if we give them the right expression, we are in control, like one who is in a garden doing the necessary work to get a good result, or we can give them the wrong expression and the weeds can come up and choke the new growth, or the animals(emotions) can eat up out "fruits", etc.

Well, you are making my point here! I'm positing, and have been doing so since day one that, the Jinn homo s.s. have a particular predominating mindset, meaning, they tend to be "urge/id/self" oriented, as opposed to Allah/Law oriented. These are brain based mindsets not disembodied positive and negative energies floating in the ether.

Brother, I think it would be best if you finished with your position first, then we can enter into debate with complete ideas, rather than you trying t o tear down my position while you are unsure where you are going with your position. I will leave you with this;

You don't need to wait until I complete my project to corroborate your own, that is a red-herring on your part. I can work on my theory and, at the same time, examine yours, one has nothing to do with other. So, I ask you again...please provide some authoritative corroboration for your theory, thanks again. You can start with providing corroboration for your maintaining that Iblis was of the malaika and not the Jinn, as Quran explicited states that he is. Who, of note, subscribes to that notion which is part of your overall theory? Please post his or her's statements so that I may read it. Perhaps that individual will be clearer than you and then I'll get it. Btw, I have not tried to tear down your theory, however, I do want you to prove it.

(3124) When you say to the trusting, "Is it not enough/sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the forces of control sent descending?"

And...your point is....what? There's a great deal that can be construed from that ayat, specifically, Allah is our Protector.

Does the God send Homo Sapien Sapiens , three thousand of them, to help you from the sky? Or does the God descend the proper forces from within your being to help you deal with the situation (i.e. proper thoughts , perception, etc).

I don't know what those forces were, other than being malaika, and neither do you. However, I do agree with you here . If one trusts Allah, then one follows the principles/laws-malaika which He has set in motion. So, does shaitan send down negative thought/forces as Allah sends down good ones? Does shaitan exist independent of homo s.s. as does Allah? Has Allah created negative forces?

I guess if you still require this corrobative proof, then give me an example of the proof you require by using the WIND as your example, because I am unsure what you are looking for.

My position is very clear

Iblis was of the Jinn and not the malaika.
The nature of the Jinn is known but the malaika is not, hence, Iblis, cannot be a malaika.
The forces/laws of creation/malaika, cannot disobey Allah. A law/principle/malaika, is immutable, hence, once again, iblis/the Jinn, cannot be malaika because he chose to do something to disobey Allah's command. If he were truly a law/priciple/malaika, this could not have happened.
Jinn, in my understanding, is a mindset of homo s.s., period.
I posted the ayat where Allah says that the Jinn built basins, reservoirs and worked with molten brass, yet, you want to assert that these were "disembodied thoughts" were doing these labors.

Your position/theory runs counter to items 1-3 & 5 which are clearly/explicitly stated in Quran. To date, you have not provided any Quranic corroboration for your going against explicit ayats. Hence, until you do so, your theory remains purely a product of your own fertile imagination and not Quranic truth.

Until then, I will take a back seat to this debate, I see no reason to continue with last years back and forth discussions. I am satisfied with my position and will state it only when it is beneficial.

Well, if you are satisfied with a position which Al-Quran does not corroborate, well, there is nothing I can say which could dissuade you from your position. I'll leave you with this

2124 Or, have they taken gods besides Him? Say Bring your proof; this is the reminder of those with me and the reminder of those before me. Nay! most of them do not know the truth, so they turn aside.

And just in case you suggest that I'm using the the above ayat out of context because it mentions gods and you don't see yourself as one, just ponder the following ayat

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion/impulse? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

Until you bring convincing proof, meaning, Allah's ayats, for why you have gone against explicit ayats, then you are simply following your own passion/impulse/imaJINNation.

Looking forward to your reply...bring ayats, thanks.

wildguest1956

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan).

So, according to you, there are 2 kinds of jinn

malaika positive ones
shaytaan negative ones
This implies that malaika are jinn.

We now the jinn have been created from fire.
Does this mean that the malaika (and the shaytaan) have been created from fire too ?

Peace

The forces/laws of creation/malaika, cannot disobey Allah. A law/principle/malaika, is immutable, hence, once again, iblis/the Jinn, cannot be malaika because he chose to do something to disobey Allah's command. If he were truly a law/priciple/malaika, this could not have happened.

IMHO, There are 2 levels of submission

submitting to the will of God
submitting to the commands of God (the Quran)

submitting to the commands of God

Only the humans can refuse to submit to the commands of God, if they refuse to obey what God has revealed in the Quran.
God has created the human being endowed with free will = the ability of choosing to obey or not the commands of God.
Iblis symbolises the force (into the human's mind) leading men to disobeying to the commands of God.

submitting to the will of God

But Everything in the universe submits to the will of God.

And to God submit all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.
When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

God knows best,
Peace

unknownuser

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

wildguest1956

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

As I understand, Iblis symbolizes the forces that leads man to disobey to God's commands.

Maybe Parwez and Asad explain it better than I.

Parwez's exposition of verse
(15) All that there is in the universe submits to Allahs laws (3/82). Things belonging to the physical universe submit to these laws through instinctive urge without any external coercion (41/11). Human beings also obey physical laws they have no choice in it. For instance, a man may walk in any direction at his will but he cannot change the direction of his shadow. So far as Divine Values are concerned, it is open to them to obey or reject them. Those who reject them are eventually forced by necessity to comply with them.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_013.htm

Asad's commentary on verse
The expression yasjud ("prostrates himself" or "prostrate themselves") is a metonym for complete submission to His will (Zamakhshari), that is, to the natural laws decreed by Him with regard to everything that exists. According to most of the classical commentators, those who submit to God willingly (i.e., consciously) are the angels and the believers, whereas the deniers of the truth, who are "not willing" to submit to Him, are nevertheless, without being conscious of it, subject to His will. However, in view of the subsequent reference to "shadows" it is logical to assume that the relative pronoun man relates in this context not merely to conscious beings but also to all other physical objects, whether animate or inanimate-i.e., to "all things and beings that are in the heavens and on earth". (See also 16 48-49 and 22 18.)
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/013

Asad's commentary on verse
I.e., they must, by virtue of their nature, obey the impulses implanted in them by God and are, therefore, incapable of what is described as "sinning". Man, however, is fundamentally different in this respect. In contrast with the natural sinlessness of "every beast that moves, and the angels", man is endowed with free will in the moral sense of this term he can choose between right and wrong and therefore he can, and often does, sin. But even while he sins he is subject to the universal law of cause and effect instituted by God and referred to in the Qur'an as sunnat Alldh ("God's way") hence the Qur'anic statement that "before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in the heavens and on earth" (13 15).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/016

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong).
When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

Asad's note on verse
For an explanation of the name of the Fallen Angel, see surah 7, note 10. The fact of this "rebellion", repeatedly stressed in the Qur'an, has led some of the commentators to the conclusion that he could not have been one of the angels, since these are incapable of sinning "they do not bear themselves with false pride. .. and they do whatever they are bidden to do" (16 49-50). As against this, other commentators point to the Qur'anic phrasing of God's command to the angels and of Iblis' refusal to obey, which makes it absolutely clear that at the time of that command he was indeed one of the heavenly host. Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God (see note 31 on 15 41).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/002a

Hope it is clearer now.

You can also have a look at QXP http//www.galaxydastak.com/QXP%202nd%20edition%206-18-03.doc

Peace

unknownuser

BOKMEI The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong). When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

This for me, is the crux issue of the dispute between Idol, Ayman, Carrot and now yourself and me.

Contradiction/Discrepancy 1

The malaika cannot disobey Allah's commands or His Will. 1649-50
Iblis, cannot disobey Allah's Will, but can and did disobey His command.
Iblis, therefore, could not possibly be of the malaika.

To date, Idol has not yet resolved this contradiction in his position.

In addition, you asked and so did I, but Idol was not able to respond with Ayats but with conjecture/extrapolation, meaning, if Iblis was of the malaika, are the malaika also created of fire free of smoke?

Contradiction/Discrepancy 2

The Jinn, according to Al-Quran, preceded "man" and were created of fire free of smoke.
Iblis, according to ayat 1850, was of the Jinn.
Hence, he too was created of fire free of smoke.
Hence, he could not be of the malaika.

Nothing in Al-Quran corroborates the notion that Iblis was of the malaika. Idol, and those who support his assertion that he was, have yet to produce the ayat where Allah explicitly states that. Allah, makes explicit statements about the malaika in 1649-50 and Iblis in 1850.

I don't see how it is possible to advance Idol's assertion/theory until he can resolve the above contradictions/discrepancies with clear ayats/proof regarding the composition of the malaika.

482 Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancies.

Idol's theory creates two discrepancies.

Looking forward to your response.

wildguest1956

BOKMEI The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong). When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

This for me, is the crux issue of the dispute between Idol, Ayman, Carrot and now yourself and me.

Contradiction/Discrepancy 1

The malaika cannot disobey Allah's commands or His Will. 1649-50
Iblis, cannot disobey Allah's Will, but can and did disobey His command.
Iblis, therefore, could not possibly be of the malaika.

To date, Idol has not yet resolved this contradiction in his position.

In addition, you asked and so did I, but Idol was not able to respond with Ayats but with conjecture/extrapolation, meaning, if Iblis was of the malaika, are the malaika also created of fire free of smoke?

I have already answered to these claims, but you have ignored it.

Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31124&highlight=#31124
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31290&highlight=#31290
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31363&highlight=#31363
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31364&highlight=#31364
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31453&highlight=#31453

Contradiction/Discrepancy 2

The Jinn, according to Al-Quran, preceded "man" and were created of fire free of smoke.
Iblis, according to ayat 1850, was of the Jinn.
Hence, he too was created of fire free of smoke.
Hence, he could not be of the malaika.

Nothing in Al-Quran corroborates the notion that Iblis was of the malaika. Idol, and those who support his assertion that he was, have yet to produce the ayat where Allah explicitly states that. Allah, makes explicit statements about the malaika in 1649-50 and Iblis in 1850.

I don't see how it is possible to advance Idol's assertion/theory until he can resolve the above contradictions/discrepancies with clear ayats/proof regarding the composition of the malaika.

482 Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancies.

Idol's theory creates two discrepancies.

Looking forward to your response. )

First, My theory is not Idol's one.

Here's what I have already understood to these questions

But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !

"ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.

Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".

The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34250&highlight=#34250
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34789&highlight=#34789
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34793&highlight=#34793

Sorry to give so many links, but it is a bit tiring to be always repeating oneself.

Please take some time to reflect,

Peace

unknownuser

PEACE, /JM/

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws. Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika. When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

O.K.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

Well, this being true, and you consider Iblis to be of the malaika, then how could he disobey? Certainly, the malaika existed before the creation of man.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil). The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

Just so I have this straight, is this force inherent in humans or is it a force which exists outside of humans and can influence humans to do evil?

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

The above ayats you cite do not make an exception to zina. You are not comprehending the ayats. If there were an exception and Allah doesn't identify it as an exception, then what we have would be a contradiction/discrepancy.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

425 Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati wallahu aAAlamu bieemanikum baAAdukum min baAAdin fankihoohunna biithni ahlihinna waatoohunna ojoorahunna bilmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin faitha ohsinna fain atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi thalika liman khashiya alAAanata minkum waan tasbiroo khayrun lakum wallahu ghafoorun raheem

3330 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.

3330 Ya nisaa annabiyyi man yati minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseera

733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

7;33 Qul innama harrama rabbiya alfawahisha ma thahara minha wama batana walithma walbaghya bighayri alhaqqi waan tushrikoo billahi ma lam yunazzil bihi sultanan waan taqooloo AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoon

Ayats 425, 733 and 3330 all speak of fahusha.

Main Entry FAHUSHA excessive, immoderate, shameful, indecent, improper conduct, immoral, unseemly, adultery, fornication.

242 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

242 Azzaniyatu wazzanee fajlidoo kulla wahidin minhuma miata jaldatin wala takhuthkum bihima rafatun fee deeni Allahi in kuntum tuminoona billahi walyawmi alakhiri walyashhad AAathabahuma taifatun mina almumineen

The word in the above ayat for sexual misconduct is--zina/illicit sexual intercourse. In ayats 425, 733, and 3330, Allah leaves open how each society chooses to deal with shameful deeds, however, in ayat 242, Allah prescribes the punishment specifically for zina.

In other words, all sexual misconduct IS fahusha, but not all fahusha IS sexual misconduct, hence, different means to address fahusha. As you can see, there are no exceptions regarding these ayats.

JM wrote But Iblis is not a jinn ! Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns ! "ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders. Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".

This is extraordinary ...Iblis is not a Jinn, but has the same nature as the jinns??

JM, same nature=identical=same nature! How can something have the same nature as something else and still, ultimately, be a different nature?! I truly feel that you, Idol and the others, need to respect 1850 for what it is. Fallen angel is a Christian concept and not from Allah.

JM wrote The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

So, once again, this devil, is it

A. inherent to the human being

or

B. is it some force existing outside of human beings.

You are still vague on this; please pick position A or position B . This will help me immensely, thanks.

Thank you for the links.

Sincerely and eager looking forward to your reply.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

Sorry, did not realize someone else asked a question.

idolfree wrote
When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan).

So, according to you, there are 2 kinds of jinn

malaika positive ones
shaytaan negative ones
This implies that malaika are jinn.

We now the jinn have been created from fire.
Does this mean that the malaika (and the shaytaan) have been created from fire too ?

YES. Try to think of it in the same light as Humans being created from Clay (water and soil).

Regarding smokeless fire, have you researched the phrase "emanations of the SUN"? All things are emanations from the SUN, "tears of the Sun".

wildguest1956

PEACE, /JM/

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws. Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika. When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

O.K.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

Well, this being true, and you consider Iblis to be of the malaika, then how could he disobey? Certainly, the malaika existed before the creation of man.

Peace,

The malaika are the forces in charge of executing God's will in the universe.

Before the creation of the human being, no living being ever disobeyed to God's commands ; no malaika ever disobeyed.
Then God decided to create the human being, with the ability to disobey to God's commands. In the Quran, God calls the force leading man to disobey Iblis. In the story of creation, this force symbolically disobeys the command of God to prostrate to Adam.

How could this malaika disobey ?
Because it was the will of God it did.
As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil). The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

Just so I have this straight, is this force inherent in humans or is it a force which exists outside of humans and can influence humans to do evil?

This force is inherent to humans.
When this force (the force leading you to disobey to God's commands) comes from you (pride, selfishness...), it is called Iblis. And when it comes from the others (bad influence, manipulations), it is called Shaitan.