WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

[wildguest1956]

When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan).

So, according to you, there are 2 kinds of jinn

• malaika positive ones
• shaytaan negative ones
  This implies that malaika are jinn.

We now the jinn have been created from fire.
Does this mean that the malaika (and the shaytaan) have been created from fire too ?

Peace

3. The forces/laws of creation/malaika, cannot disobey Allah. A law/principle/malaika, is immutable, hence, once again, iblis/the Jinn, cannot be malaika because he chose to do something to disobey Allah's command. If he were truly a law/priciple/malaika, this could not have happened.

IMHO, There are 2 levels of submission

• submitting to the will of God
• submitting to the commands of God (the Quran)

1. submitting to the commands of God

Only the humans can refuse to submit to the commands of God, if they refuse to obey what God has revealed in the Quran.
God has created the human being endowed with free will = the ability of choosing to obey or not the commands of God.
Iblis symbolises the force (into the human's mind) leading men to disobeying to the commands of God.

2. submitting to the will of God

But Everything in the universe submits to the will of God.

And to God submit all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.
When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

God knows best,
Peace

[unknownuser]

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

[wildguest1956]

PEACE, /JM/

When Iblis symbolically refuses to obey the command of God (prostrating to Adam), he is still submitting to the will of God, because it is the will of God Iblis exists and does that; like it is the will of God man can disobey to his commands.

I cannot fathom the difference between your two positions ?

The human can disobey to the commands of God, but they cannot disobey to the will of God, because their biology has been created by God ; and it is God's will men can disobey to his commands.

This is where you've lost me. I guess, I need you to define whether or not Iblis is a sentient being or not or just a symbol for something.

As I understand, Iblis symbolizes the forces that leads man to disobey to God's commands.

Maybe Parwez and Asad explain it better than I.

Parwez's exposition of verse
(15) All that there is in the universe submits to Allahs laws (3/82). Things belonging to the physical universe submit to these laws through instinctive urge without any external coercion (41/11). Human beings also obey physical laws they have no choice in it. For instance, a man may walk in any direction at his will but he cannot change the direction of his shadow. So far as Divine Values are concerned, it is open to them to obey or reject them. Those who reject them are eventually forced by necessity to comply with them.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_013.htm

Asad's commentary on verse
The expression yasjud ("prostrates himself" or "prostrate themselves") is a metonym for complete submission to His will (Zamakhshari), that is, to the natural laws decreed by Him with regard to everything that exists. According to most of the classical commentators, those who submit to God willingly (i.e., consciously) are the angels and the believers, whereas the deniers of the truth, who are "not willing" to submit to Him, are nevertheless, without being conscious of it, subject to His will. However, in view of the subsequent reference to "shadows" it is logical to assume that the relative pronoun man relates in this context not merely to conscious beings but also to all other physical objects, whether animate or inanimate-i.e., to "all things and beings that are in the heavens and on earth". (See also 16 48-49 and 22 18.)
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/013

Asad's commentary on verse
I.e., they must, by virtue of their nature, obey the impulses implanted in them by God and are, therefore, incapable of what is described as "sinning". Man, however, is fundamentally different in this respect. In contrast with the natural sinlessness of "every beast that moves, and the angels", man is endowed with free will in the moral sense of this term he can choose between right and wrong and therefore he can, and often does, sin. But even while he sins he is subject to the universal law of cause and effect instituted by God and referred to in the Qur'an as sunnat Alldh ("God's way") hence the Qur'anic statement that "before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in the heavens and on earth" (13 15).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/016

The forces (malaika) that execute the will of God in the universe (and, in particular, in the human's mind) always submit to the will of God. But one of them working in the human's mind can disobey to the command of God, and it is symbolically called Iblis.

The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong).
When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

Asad's note on verse
For an explanation of the name of the Fallen Angel, see surah 7, note 10. The fact of this "rebellion", repeatedly stressed in the Qur'an, has led some of the commentators to the conclusion that he could not have been one of the angels, since these are incapable of sinning "they do not bear themselves with false pride. .. and they do whatever they are bidden to do" (16 49-50). As against this, other commentators point to the Qur'anic phrasing of God's command to the angels and of Iblis' refusal to obey, which makes it absolutely clear that at the time of that command he was indeed one of the heavenly host. Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God (see note 31 on 15 41).
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/002a

Hope it is clearer now.

You can also have a look at QXP http//www.galaxydastak.com/QXP%202nd%20edition%206-18-03.doc

Peace

[unknownuser]

BOKMEI The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong). When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

This for me, is the crux issue of the dispute between Idol, Ayman, Carrot and now yourself and me.

Contradiction/Discrepancy 1

1. The malaika cannot disobey Allah's commands or His Will. 1649-50

2. Iblis, cannot disobey Allah's Will, but can and did disobey His command.

3. Iblis, therefore, could not possibly be of the malaika.

To date, Idol has not yet resolved this contradiction in his position.

In addition, you asked and so did I, but Idol was not able to respond with Ayats but with conjecture/extrapolation, meaning, if Iblis was of the malaika, are the malaika also created of fire free of smoke?

Contradiction/Discrepancy 2

1. The Jinn, according to Al-Quran, preceded "man" and were created of fire free of smoke.

2. Iblis, according to ayat 1850, was of the Jinn.

3. Hence, he too was created of fire free of smoke.

4. Hence, he could not be of the malaika.

Nothing in Al-Quran corroborates the notion that Iblis was of the malaika. Idol, and those who support his assertion that he was, have yet to produce the ayat where Allah explicitly states that. Allah, makes explicit statements about the malaika in 1649-50 and Iblis in 1850.

I don't see how it is possible to advance Idol's assertion/theory until he can resolve the above contradictions/discrepancies with clear ayats/proof regarding the composition of the malaika.

482 Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancies.

Idol's theory creates two discrepancies.

Looking forward to your response.

[wildguest1956]

BOKMEI The malaika submit to both Allah's commands and His Will. 1649-50

Yes, you are right (and I am wrong). When Iblis refused to submit to God's command to prostrate before Adam, he could no longer be called an angel, he got banned, and became a rejecter.

This for me, is the crux issue of the dispute between Idol, Ayman, Carrot and now yourself and me.

Contradiction/Discrepancy 1

1. The malaika cannot disobey Allah's commands or His Will. 1649-50

2. Iblis, cannot disobey Allah's Will, but can and did disobey His command.

3. Iblis, therefore, could not possibly be of the malaika.

To date, Idol has not yet resolved this contradiction in his position.

In addition, you asked and so did I, but Idol was not able to respond with Ayats but with conjecture/extrapolation, meaning, if Iblis was of the malaika, are the malaika also created of fire free of smoke?

I have already answered to these claims, but you have ignored it.

Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31124&highlight=#31124
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31290&highlight=#31290
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31363&highlight=#31363
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31364&highlight=#31364
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31453&highlight=#31453

Contradiction/Discrepancy 2

1. The Jinn, according to Al-Quran, preceded "man" and were created of fire free of smoke.

2. Iblis, according to ayat 1850, was of the Jinn.

3. Hence, he too was created of fire free of smoke.

4. Hence, he could not be of the malaika.

Nothing in Al-Quran corroborates the notion that Iblis was of the malaika. Idol, and those who support his assertion that he was, have yet to produce the ayat where Allah explicitly states that. Allah, makes explicit statements about the malaika in 1649-50 and Iblis in 1850.

I don't see how it is possible to advance Idol's assertion/theory until he can resolve the above contradictions/discrepancies with clear ayats/proof regarding the composition of the malaika.

482 Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancies.

Idol's theory creates two discrepancies.

Looking forward to your response. )

First, My theory is not Idol's one.

Here's what I have already understood to these questions

But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !

"ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.

Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".

The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34250&highlight=#34250
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34789&highlight=#34789
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34793&highlight=#34793

Sorry to give so many links, but it is a bit tiring to be always repeating oneself.

Please take some time to reflect,

Peace

[unknownuser]

PEACE, /JM/

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws. Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika. When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

O.K.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

Well, this being true, and you consider Iblis to be of the malaika, then how could he disobey? Certainly, the malaika existed before the creation of man.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil). The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

Just so I have this straight, is this force inherent in humans or is it a force which exists outside of humans and can influence humans to do evil?

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

The above ayats you cite do not make an exception to zina. You are not comprehending the ayats. If there were an exception and Allah doesn't identify it as an exception, then what we have would be a contradiction/discrepancy.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

425 Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati wallahu aAAlamu bieemanikum baAAdukum min baAAdin fankihoohunna biithni ahlihinna waatoohunna ojoorahunna bilmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin faitha ohsinna fain atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi thalika liman khashiya alAAanata minkum waan tasbiroo khayrun lakum wallahu ghafoorun raheem

3330 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.

3330 Ya nisaa annabiyyi man yati minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseera

733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

7;33 Qul innama harrama rabbiya alfawahisha ma thahara minha wama batana walithma walbaghya bighayri alhaqqi waan tushrikoo billahi ma lam yunazzil bihi sultanan waan taqooloo AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoon

Ayats 425, 733 and 3330 all speak of fahusha.

Main Entry FAHUSHA excessive, immoderate, shameful, indecent, improper conduct, immoral, unseemly, adultery, fornication.

242 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

242 Azzaniyatu wazzanee fajlidoo kulla wahidin minhuma miata jaldatin wala takhuthkum bihima rafatun fee deeni Allahi in kuntum tuminoona billahi walyawmi alakhiri walyashhad AAathabahuma taifatun mina almumineen

The word in the above ayat for sexual misconduct is--zina/illicit sexual intercourse. In ayats 425, 733, and 3330, Allah leaves open how each society chooses to deal with shameful deeds, however, in ayat 242, Allah prescribes the punishment specifically for zina.

In other words, all sexual misconduct IS fahusha, but not all fahusha IS sexual misconduct, hence, different means to address fahusha. As you can see, there are no exceptions regarding these ayats.

JM wrote But Iblis is not a jinn ! Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns ! "ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders. Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".

This is extraordinary ...Iblis is not a Jinn, but has the same nature as the jinns??

JM, same nature=identical=same nature! How can something have the same nature as something else and still, ultimately, be a different nature?! I truly feel that you, Idol and the others, need to respect 1850 for what it is. Fallen angel is a Christian concept and not from Allah.

JM wrote The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

So, once again, this devil, is it

A. inherent to the human being

or

B. is it some force existing outside of human beings.

You are still vague on this; please pick position A or position B . This will help me immensely, thanks.

Thank you for the links.

Sincerely and eager looking forward to your reply.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you JM,

Sorry, did not realize someone else asked a question.

idolfree wrote
When I discuss the hidden/covered beings, realize that the positive ones are described as forces of control, which is CONSISTENT to the root (m-l-k), and the negative ones are described as "perverse" (shaytaan).

So, according to you, there are 2 kinds of jinn

• malaika positive ones
• shaytaan negative ones
  This implies that malaika are jinn.

We now the jinn have been created from fire.
Does this mean that the malaika (and the shaytaan) have been created from fire too ?

YES. Try to think of it in the same light as Humans being created from Clay (water and soil).

Regarding smokeless fire, have you researched the phrase "emanations of the SUN"? All things are emanations from the SUN, "tears of the Sun".

[wildguest1956]

PEACE, /JM/

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws. Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika. When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

O.K.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

Well, this being true, and you consider Iblis to be of the malaika, then how could he disobey? Certainly, the malaika existed before the creation of man.

Peace,

The malaika are the forces in charge of executing God's will in the universe.

Before the creation of the human being, no living being ever disobeyed to God's commands ; no malaika ever disobeyed.
Then God decided to create the human being, with the ability to disobey to God's commands. In the Quran, God calls the force leading man to disobey Iblis. In the story of creation, this force symbolically disobeys the command of God to prostrate to Adam.

How could this malaika disobey ?
Because it was the will of God it did.
As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil). The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

Just so I have this straight, is this force inherent in humans or is it a force which exists outside of humans and can influence humans to do evil?

This force is inherent to humans.
When this force (the force leading you to disobey to God's commands) comes from you (pride, selfishness...), it is called Iblis. And when it comes from the others (bad influence, manipulations), it is called Shaitan.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

The above ayats you cite do not make an exception to zina. You are not comprehending the ayats. If there were an exception and Allah doesn't identify it as an exception, then what we have would be a contradiction/discrepancy.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

425 Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati wallahu aAAlamu bieemanikum baAAdukum min baAAdin fankihoohunna biithni ahlihinna waatoohunna ojoorahunna bilmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin faitha ohsinna fain atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi thalika liman khashiya alAAanata minkum waan tasbiroo khayrun lakum wallahu ghafoorun raheem

3330 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.

3330 Ya nisaa annabiyyi man yati minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseera

733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

7;33 Qul innama harrama rabbiya alfawahisha ma thahara minha wama batana walithma walbaghya bighayri alhaqqi waan tushrikoo billahi ma lam yunazzil bihi sultanan waan taqooloo AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoon

Ayats 425, 733 and 3330 all speak of fahusha.

Main Entry FAHUSHA excessive, immoderate, shameful, indecent, improper conduct, immoral, unseemly, adultery, fornication.

242 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

242 Azzaniyatu wazzanee fajlidoo kulla wahidin minhuma miata jaldatin wala takhuthkum bihima rafatun fee deeni Allahi in kuntum tuminoona billahi walyawmi alakhiri walyashhad AAathabahuma taifatun mina almumineen

The word in the above ayat for sexual misconduct is--zina/illicit sexual intercourse. In ayats 425, 733, and 3330, Allah leaves open how each society chooses to deal with shameful deeds, however, in ayat 242, Allah prescribes the punishment specifically for zina.

In other words, all sexual misconduct IS fahusha, but not all fahusha IS sexual misconduct, hence, different means to address fahusha. As you can see, there are no exceptions regarding these ayats.

OK, but adultery is at the same time zina and fahusha.
So, if the maid-servant you have wed commit zina, her punishment is half the punishment of free women for zina ; that is, flogging with 50 stripes.
Do you not agree with this ?

JM wrote But Iblis is not a jinn ! Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns ! "ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders. Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".

This is extraordinary ...Iblis is not a Jinn, but has the same nature as the jinns??

JM, same nature=identical=same nature! How can something have the same nature as something else and still, ultimately, be a different nature?! I truly feel that you, Idol and the others, need to respect 1850 for what it is. Fallen angel is a Christian concept and not from Allah.

Mankind has been created from haste (Khuliqa al-insanu min AAajalin)

Does it mean that man has been created from haste ? Or that man is identical to haste ?
No, it simply means that man is naturally hasty.

The expression Khulika X min Y is often used to highlight a specific trait of Y. It can describes the character of X, not necessarily its physical nature.

JM wrote The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

Thank you for the links.

Sincerely and eager looking forward to your reply.

Reciprocally,
Peace

[mmkhan]

Salaamun Alaikum,

Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

In my opinion the characters that some brothers are referring to "Jinn" are actually suitable for "Insaan" but not the Jinn.

Because either who don't know about the laws of Allah or who disobey the laws of Allah are called "Insaan".

As you can see from most of the verses like

Insaan is Zaalim and Kaafir - 1434
Insaan is Zaalim and Jaahil - 3372
Insaan was not knowing any thing and Allah tought him but he transgress all bounds - 965-6
Insaan is in total loss - 1042

Just to quote some...

But jinn are not human beings as per 6128 and 6130
"Wa yawma yahsharuhum jamee'aa, ya ma'asharal Jinni qadistakthartum minal-Insi......." 6128
"Yaa ma'asharal Jinni wal-Insi alam y'atikum Rusoolunm-minkum....." 6130

I don't know exactly what this beings are... but it seems that they cannot be seen or heard - 4629
Even when they came closer they have not been seen or heard.

And simply Malaika are the ones who work for Allah. What shape they got and what kind of beings are they, we do not know. They may also disobey Allah (as Iblis did) except for the ones who had a guarantee that they will not disobey Allah in any means. Like

".............. a'laiha Malaaekatun ghilaazun shidaadun laa ya'thoona Allaha maa amrahum wa yaf'aloona maa y'umaroon" 666

And there are few more verses similar to this.

These are just my personal understandings, please do varify before you accept.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.

Regards,

Mohammed Mahtab Khan

[unknownuser]

PEACE, /JM/

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

PRIEST Well, this being true, and you consider Iblis to be of the malaika, then how could he disobey? Certainly, the malaika existed before the creation of man.

Peace,

The malaika are the forces in charge of executing God's will in the universe.

And, they never faltered in this regard.

Before the creation of the human being, no living being ever disobeyed to God's commands ; no malaika ever disobeyed.

Agreed.

Then God decided to create the human being, with the ability to disobey to God's commands. In the Quran, God calls the force leading man to disobey Iblis. In the story of creation, this force symbolically disobeys the command of God to prostrate to Adam.

The reason why the homo sapien sapien was able to disobey Allah, is because it was given an id/desires/impulses and the power of choice. The choice was/is to use this id force in accordance with Allah's laws/rules or use this force in opposition to Allah's laws/rules.

Here, 1. you still speak as if this force is existing independent of the homo sapien sapien brain, and 2. that this force is evil by nature.

Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.

How could this malaika disobey ? Because it was the will of God it did. As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.

You cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.

/JM/At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil). The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

PRIEST Just so I have this straight, is this force inherent in humans or is it a force which exists outside of humans and can influence humans to do evil?

This force is inherent to humans. When this force (the force leading you to disobey to God's commands) comes from you (pride, selfishness...), it is called Iblis. And when it comes from the others (bad influence, manipulations), it is called Shaitan.

Main Entry INHERENT/INTRINSIC belonging by nature or habit INTRINSICoriginating or due to causes within a body.

This id force , which I is agree is a maliaka, is good and cannot do anything but what it was created to do...serve as the locomotive force within the human being, however, this malaika can be misused. When the homo sapien sapien decides to misuse it, well, the malaika hasn't fallen, rebelled or become evil, it is simply being misused. For example, nuclear energy is a maliaka and is certainly not evil, however, homo sapien sapiens have misused to cause great destruction. The malaika didn't rebel, it was simply following it's created natured and was misused.

The Jinn, then, are homo sapien sapiens, who are given more to their desires/impulses/nar/id nature than other parts of their nature. Hence, this Iblis/Shaitan force you refer to, indeed, is inherent to the homo sapien sapien, but is absent in the maliaka and the dabbatan. This Iblis/Shaitan, therefore, name/title/mindset, among homo sapien sapiens, which misuses the malaika and other created things.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

OK, but adultery is at the same time zina and fahusha.
So, if the maid-servant you have wed commit zina, her punishment is half the punishment of free women for zina ; that is, flogging with 50 stripes. Do you not agree with this ?

I have to go back and look at this part of the ayat. What I wanted to make clear to you was, and I am pleased that you acknowledged it is, not all fahusha is zina, but all zina is fahusha.

Mankind has been created from haste (Khuliqa al-insanu min AAajalin)

Does it mean that man has been created from haste ? Or that man is identical to haste ? No, it simply means that man is naturally hasty.

I agree and the Jinn homo sapien sapiens, were/are given to their "fiery nature/impulses/id" , but are not created of fire.

JM wrote The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

There is no force leading homo sapien sapiens to rebel, it is simply homo s.s choosing not to properly dsicipline themselves by taking control of their inate impulses, drives, appetites, desires, id, fiery nature. Once one chooses to give expression to this nature, in disregard to Allah's commands, then this individual can transform into an Iblis/Shaitan, however, there is no maliaka rebelling.

Sincerely and eager looking forward to your reply.

Peace-

[unknownuser]

PEACE, MMKHAN

But jinn are not human beings as per 6128 and 6130
"Wa yawma yahsharuhum jamee'aa, ya ma'asharal Jinni qadistakthartum minal-Insi......." 6128
"Yaa ma'asharal Jinni wal-Insi alam y'atikum Rusoolunm-minkum....." 6130

I don't know exactly what this beings are... but it seems that they cannot be seen or heard - 4629 Even when they came closer they have not been seen or heard.

If they could not be heard or seen, then how could humans befriend them and seek refuge among them?

And simply Malaika are the ones who work for Allah. What shape they got and what kind of beings are they, we do not know. They may also disobey Allah (as Iblis did) except for the ones who had a guarantee that they will not disobey Allah in any means. Like

".............. a'laiha Malaaekatun ghilaazun shidaadun laa ya'thoona Allaha maa amrahum wa yaf'aloona maa y'umaroon" 666

Well, if you don't know what kind of beings they are, then how can you identify Iblis as being one of them? Allah, unlike with the maliaka, tells us that Iblis was of the Jinn and the Jinn were created of fire. Also, if Iblis was a malaika, then you, Idol, /JM/, and the others, must produce the explicit ayat where Allah says that He was of the malaika. You see, Allah, explicity tells us in ayat 1850 that Iblis was of the Jinn. If this cannot be done, then all you have is conjecture.

Thank you for your understanding; please continue to participate. Looking forward to your reply.

[Someone]

Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI, all

I believe that humans are the only creature able to create lies or fictions, something different from the truth.

This ability is double-edged, it enables us to generate new ideas, imagine new ways to solve problems... but on the other hand, it can also generate conjecture, lies and non-truths.

Anyone able to "talk" is potentially able to use this ability either ways.

just some toughts.

--

[unknownuser]

PEACE SOMEONE

Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI, all

I believe that humans are the only creature able to create lies or fictions, something different from the truth. This ability is double-edged, it enables us to generate new ideas, imagine new ways to solve problems... but on the other hand, it can also generate conjecture, lies and non-truths.
Anyone able to "talk" is potentially able to use this ability either ways. just some toughts.--

I agree completely and nothing that I've read in Al-Quran goes contrary to your thoughts.

[wildguest1956]

The reason why the homo sapien sapien was able to disobey Allah, is because it was given an id/desires/impulses and the power of choice. The choice was/is to use this id force in accordance with Allah's laws/rules or use this force in opposition to Allah's laws/rules.

This id force , which I is agree is a maliaka, is good and cannot do anything but what it was created to do...serve as the locomotive force within the human being, however, this malaika can be misused. When the homo sapien sapien decides to misuse it, well, the malaika hasn't fallen, rebelled or become evil, it is simply being misused. For example, nuclear energy is a maliaka and is certainly not evil, however, homo sapien sapiens have misused to cause great destruction. The malaika didn't rebel, it was simply following it's created natured and was misused.

Peace,

I don't agree with you on this point.
We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe.
You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun.
But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.

When God decided to create the human being, no malaika had ever disobey to God's commands.

Then, God decided to create a living being endowed with free will the human being. He commanded the malaika to prostrate to him, but one of them (Iblis) refused it.
The prostration of the malaika to Adam means that man will be able to harness the forces of the nature. But one of these forces will stand across his road Iblis .
Iblis acts as an inner voice leading people to pride and selfishness.

According to me, the biological/psychological forces that move the animals are well as the human being were among the malaika which were commanded to prostrate to Adam.

Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.

But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell.

Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.

God created a living being endowed with the faculty of abstraction ; that is, able to understand abstract commands.
In the Quran, God always commands man to do what is good.
But man has the power to disobey these commands. And if he disobeys, he will go to hell.

Maybe God would have make it simpler by not endowing man with the ability to do evil.
There would have been no need of revealing him his messages and the Quran, no need to create the hell, etc...
But He did it!
Why ? He is the only to know.
So, the only thing that is left to us to do is to accept it.

How could this malaika disobey ? Because it was the will of God it did. As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.

You cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.

No, the malaika have no free will ; and, Iblis, when he refused to prostrate to man, had no choice ; he did that because of his inner nature.
And since Iblis disobeyed , he got banned, and he was no longer called a malaika.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

OK, but adultery is at the same time zina and fahusha.
So, if the maid-servant you have wed commit zina, her punishment is half the punishment of free women for zina ; that is, flogging with 50 stripes. Do you not agree with this ?

I have to go back and look at this part of the ayat. What I wanted to make clear to you was, and I am pleased that you acknowledged it is, not all fahusha is zina, but all zina is fahusha.

OK, but the lesson of that is that you should consider the quran as a whole.
You should not draw a rule and say there is no exception from one verse only.

God knows better,

Peace

[unknownuser]

I don't agree with you on this point. We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe. You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun. But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.

I'm not certain what you disagree with. I agree the malaika carry out Allah's Will, and, this being the case, they cannot disobey Him. I not only acknowledge that the maliaka are behind the biological forces, the wind and sun, but, the biological forces, the wind and sun, might also be malaika in their own right .

When God decided to create the human being, no malaika had ever disobey to God's commands. Then, God decided to create a living being endowed with free will the human being. He commanded the malaika to prostrate to him, but one of them (Iblis) refused it. The prostration of the malaika to Adam means that man will be able to harness the forces of the nature.

You have yet to provide an explicit/definitive ayat where a maliaka, post man's creation, disobeyed Allah. I maintain that ayat 234 only alludes to Iblis being a disobedient malaika, but still it does not represent an explicit/definitive statement that he was a maliaka, who disobeyed Allah's commmand. This is further highlighted by ayat 1850, where Allah, explicitly, defines him as a Jinn. This remains our stuck point. If you, Idol, and the some of the others, wish to empahtically state that Iblis was of the malaika, then you must produce a definitive/explicit ayat which supports you understanding.

Main Entry EXPLICIT fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity leaving no question as to meaning or intent unambiguous in expression.

Main Entry DEFINITIVE serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation serving to define or specify precisely serving as a perfect example.

For example, 1850, is explicit and definitive, regarding why Iblis diosbeyed Allah's command...he was of the Jinn.

Your position regarding Iblis to be a rebellious malaika is an allusion

Main Entry ALLUDE/ALLUSION an implied or indirect reference especially in literature the act of alluding or hinting at.

PRIEST Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.

But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell. Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.

I don't know what translation you used, but it cannot possibly be correct

917-8 And the soul and Him Who made it perfect, Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;

Allah, being ALL GOOD, cannot created evil for that would constitute a discrepancy in His Character. It is homo sapien sapiens, who, by their limited-free will, choose to misuse the both internal and external malaika. Allah, has taught the homo s.s to understand what constitutes evil and how to guard against it by having taqwa . The ayat you posted is not a good translation.

God created a living being endowed with the faculty of abstraction ; that is, able to understand abstract commands. In the Quran, God always commands man to do what is good. But man has the power to disobey these commands. And if he disobeys, he will go to hell.

We are in agreement here. Howeve, homo s.s is not a malaika.

Maybe God would have make it simpler by not endowing man with the ability to do evil.

Now you are saying something quite different. You are sying man has the...ability..to do evil. But he was not created as an evil being nor where the malaika. The difference between the malaika and the homo sapien sapien is that, the malaika do not possess limited free will, meaning, they do not have the power to choose between doing right or wrong...they simply do what is right, because that is their created nature.

How could this malaika disobey ? Because it was the will of God it did. As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.

PRIESTYou cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.

No, the malaika have no free will ; and, Iblis, when he refused to prostrate to man, had no choice ; he did that because of his inner nature.
And since Iblis disobeyed , he got banned, and he was no longer called a malaika.

If Iblis had no choice and was simply created to do evil because that is his created nature, then why does Allah question his actions?

712 He said What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said I am better than he Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.

1532 He said O Iblis! what excuse have you that you are not with those who make obeisance?

3875 He said O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?

If, as you claim, Iblis had no choice, then why did Allah ask him why he disobeyed? If he were created to do just that, rebel and be evil, then there would be no need for Allah to ask why, it would be a dumb question. The question doesn't appear to be rhetorical, because Iblis gives a response

Main EntryRHETORICAL QUESTION A question asked without expecting an answer but for the sake of emphasis or effect. The expected answer is usually ?yes? or ?no.?; a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something.

OK, but the lesson of that is that you should consider the quran as a whole. You should not draw a rule and say there is no exception from one verse only.

On the contrary, it is you who needs to consider Al-Quran in total. I make it a habit to look for the tashreef and it appears that you do not, hence, your not being able to get past ayat 234, as your reason to believe that Iblis was one of the malaika. When one takes Al-Quran in total, as you suggest is the thing to do, then one knows that Iblis was not of the malaika.

God knows better

And He makes His knowledge known to us in His Quran. All we need to to is go get it; He's hid nothing from us nor has He given us mysteries.

Keep the following ayat in mind

2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to you but We reveal to you the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

Looking forward as always, to your reply.

Peace-

[Grourself]

Peace,

yusjudu and yusallimu

I have found sa-la-ma used in the Qur'aan for mankind who has the gift of free will to surrender. I note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.

Sa-ja-da=submit, submission = (English) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or SUPPLIANT BEHAVIOR; meekness; resignation. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; OBEDIENCE; COMPLIANCE.

Sa-la-ma = surrender= (English) To give up possession of; to yield; to resign; as, TO SURRENDER A RIGHT, PRIVILEGE, OR ADVANTAGE. give up or agree to FOREGO to the power or possession of another, surrender to something, to allow yourself to be controlled or influenced by something, to say officially that you want to stop fighting because you realize that YOU CANNOT WIN.

The obvious outcome of surrender is peace and security. In my humble understanding the two words are not synonyms. Allah?s forces have been made submissive to mankind. For mankind, the inheritors of the Earth, we surrender our free will for the Lord of the Worlds and our submissions belong to Allah alone (721.

[unknownuser]

Salaams Gourself , all,

you are depicting the Malaikaat as something other then human i think everything that obeys Allah trees e.t.c

but just one quistion the word in your referance (383, AND 1315)which you said means "All"

does it mean this please check up the following ayah's and may be we will all know what it means

check 28,and 230 as a start. (Here it means SOME )

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68

Salaams Gourself.

[Grourself]

Peace mz,

but just one quistion the word in your referance (383, AND 1315)which you said means "All"

does it mean this please check up the following ayah's and may be we will all know what it means

check 28,and 230 as a start. (Here it means SOME )

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68

I think you are mistaken. This is my reference

Man indeclinable conjunctive pronoun he, she, they, whosoever

Min Propositition used for expressing starting point, part of a whole, origin as, from, of some, amongst?

28 is some - ?min?

383 is whosoever-?man?

[unknownuser]

Salaams Gourself,

Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amannabiAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wamahum bimu/mineena

Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

Ma yawaddu allatheena kafaroomin ahli alkitabi wala almushrikeena an yunazzalaAAalaykum min khayrin min rabbikum waAllahu yakhtassubirahmatihi man yashao waAllahu thooalfadli alAAatheemi

It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.

In the first its some=man.
In the second man=whom.

WaAllahu khalaqa kulla dabbatinmin ma-in faminhum man yamshee AAala batnihiwaminhum man yamshee AAala rijlayni waminhum man yamsheeAAala arbaAAin yakhluqu Allahu ma yashaoinna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

Try.

http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html

But no boubt , may be i am wrong!

Salaams.

[Grourself]

Peace.

And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

The "man" in this case is a conjunctive pronoun, eg., he, they. The translator has just not included it. "...and some that (they=man) walk on two legs."