Would You cut someones hand if they stole?
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i think he preffered the traditional translations despite of knowing there are some better interpretation also i wonder he did not give their reference in 5 38 ..
anyways..here is gift for him if he thinks God is confusing people
1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said "Come out to them," so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands, and they said "Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!
did womens cutt off their hands or it was just a mark of injury? (whats your common sense say in this event)
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peace hansolo,
I know sports are good for the body, however, our linguistics acrobatics with the Clear Quran is a bit disappointing to say the least.
Well, let's put it to the test......... if you are a genuine truth seeker you will welcome such an approach
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The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 538 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same 1st verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, please tell us how many out of the 14 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
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The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times in The Quran. The 2nd verb form expresses intensity/frequency of the action. Please tell us how many out of the 17 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
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The more intense 2nd verb form is used alongside hands only twice in Quran - please tell us does it mean cutting off hands in these verses? Yes/No.
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Please explain the plural use of "aydi" (hands) in 538. Note that the Arabic plural means 3 or more hands, thus iqtaa should be done to 3 or more hands.
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When lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many (all?) consider this punishment to be far worse. Please explain why this is.
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The recurring theme of justice in The Quran is equivalence or less, i.e. one cannot go overboard in punishment with respect to the crime. Please explain what happens if someone steals a slice of bread according to Quran.
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Are there any other corroborating verses in Quran which support hand-cutting-off for theft? Yes/No. If yes, cite them.
8 ) the only working example of theft in Quran is in the story of Joseph , please tell us what the punishment for theft is in this story?
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moreover lets say logically a thief get punished first time by get his hands chopped off..
after that if he manage to rob/steal/theft again, then what part of body get chopped off..?
is it not a free license to him , like do it(theft) as much as you can and no punishment can apply to you as you have no hands any more.. hmm
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Brother Imran,
What about the
533 - Free-Minds.org Translation The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
Are You ready to do this things to those enemies of God? Al those swine eating, land corrupting, unbelievers ? (SARCASM)
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well, read the verse before and after 5 33 for a clear picture,
your thread is dealing with theft...
if you wan to discuss 5 33 open a new thread and ask again same thing there , i ll get to you with logic .dnt mix two things
(theft and murder)eye for an eye
hand for hand
life for life
but its better if you forgive.. -
Salam,
538
And the male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their
resources?as a penalty for what they have earned?to be made
an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.No cutting of limbs for theft. The punishment given in 533 is not for theft.
In pretext of FM Quran, there's a good explanation
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off (Iqta)
his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for
their crime and Allah is Exalted in power. (Qur?an 53If we had based our opinion solely on verse 538 as shown above, then
our understanding would be that the hands of thieves are to be severed
completely. If this is indeed what God has commanded, then we have no
option but to hear and obey.However, in this particular case, we find that a small check against the real
life example given in the Qur?an of Joseph and his brothers and how they
dealt with the issue of theft leads us to a completely different conclusion?They said ?By God, you know we have not come to cause corruption
in the land, and we are not thieves!?
They said ?What shall be the
punishment, if you are not truthful?? They said ?The punishment is that
he in whose saddlebag it is found will himself serve as the punishment. It is
so that we punish the wicked.
?? (Qur?an 1273-75)The law of God that Joseph applied against his brother in the matter
of theft did not lead to any amputation of the hand or any other mindless
act of violence. It did, however, lead to the brother being made to remain
behind and work as a penalty against that which he was accused of stealing.
Looking back at verse 538 with the correct translation we see a
completely different understanding from that found by Yusuf Ali?And the male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their resources?
as a penalty for what they have earned?to be made an example of
from God. God is Noble, Wise.? (Qur?an 53The correct understanding of the verse not only matches the live
example given in the Qur?an, but it also comes in-line with the other
checks and balances that God has given such as the punishment not
exceeding the crime (16126).Salam
PS. I wouldn't cut anyone's hand if they stole
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Why don't you stay on topic and provide proof that the Quran orders hands to be cut off for theft
he dnt have it, otherwise he never missed the reply of my first post...
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hansolo , the picture below best describe the running after theft... >
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/1a/04/3e1a047138e74490a162595525df5ddf.jpg
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538 Wa al sariqu wa al sariqatu fa iqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun
Aydiya - plural
huma - third person masculine dualGod mentions both the male and female thief here for a reason. We have 2 people here and we have "aydiyahuma" meaning "each of their (dual) resources (plural)." Even if you want to translate it as "hands" then it would be "cut each of their 3 or more hands" which makes no sense. Therefore it has to mean resources/power. The word choices thougout this verse has a purpose.
538 As for the male thief and the female thief, you shall cut/cut off/disable/put an end to their means/resources/power for either of them as a recompense/reparation/penalty for what they did/for their doing/crime. This is to serve as a deterrent/an example from God. God is powerful/mighty, wise/judicious/authoritative.
539 Whoever turns/repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Does this sound just to you? You get both hands cut off and then you can repent without your hands and it's all good?
1270 When he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in his brother's bag. Then a caller cried out "O you in the caravan, you are thieves!"
1271 They said, turning towards them "What is it you are missing?"
1272 He said, "We are missing the measuring bowl of the King, and whoever finds it shall receive a camel-load; I guarantee this."
1273 They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the wrongdoers."
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The verbal sentence has prefixed conjunction particle which shows cause and effect, and initiates an apodosis clause. Thus this sentence is a subordinate clause. Verb is imperative, second person, plural, masculine, of base form made from - verbal noun. This form of verb does not include in its semantic ambit the act of amputation to cut off some appendage/part of the body. This fact is also evident from its direct object a possessive phrase, first noun is plural which signifies three and more objects. Obviously a convicted thief does not have three or more hands which could be imputed.
Allah the Exalted has laid down retributive justice system wherein the punishment is proportionate in response to crime.Its Form-II can have the signification of amputation, and of splitting
refer 7124; 7160 -
So all you Qur'an alone community fans, once again, who will execute lashings and cutting of hands provided that you somehow organize your welfare under the same roof so to speak? I asked the fascist Gerrans this question, he removed the comment. Don't remove mine. Answer honestly.
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Don't fall for Makavelli's weak traps.
Rather ask him, where in the Quran it states one should sever the hand of a thief?
The grammar, syntax, morphology of the verse are a clear indication that it is not referring to literal hands but MEANS, ability etc...
Agents nope
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Don't fall for Makavelli's weak traps.
Rather ask him, where in the Quran it states one should sever the hand of a thief?
The grammar, syntax, morphology of the verse are a clear indication that it is not referring to literal hands but MEANS, ability etc...
Agents nope
Umm..nope. It means what it means, any attempt to disprove this can as well be attributed to the whole Qur'an. So if you take somethign as literal and the other what you prefer as methaprohical, which methodology do you use in order to understand the Qur'an? In case the language is associative/methaprohical, it means you understand the Qur'an in a wrong way, not just the verse about cutting off hands (literally). So what is your methodology? How many wives can you have in accordance with 351?
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For my answer I just thought about if I were able to actually chop off a hand but its far too freaky for me. I'm glad that the Qur'an might be demonstrated as not telling people to do that, I thought that is very useful and interesting. I'd again also not like tgat law for fear of getting my hand chopped off. If anyone wanted to chop me though I'd want to end their life for sure. I have a very drastic self preservation policy and mechanism and animalistically hate anyone who wishes any level of harm upon me and generally wish immediate death upon such. I'd wish they would be killed outright by God if they wanted to poison my food or cause me a stomach ache or even some small distress of mine pleases them.
So to Makaveli I would admit that if he wishes harm upon me I wish infinite harm upon him, if he wishes me to falter or fall I wish he didn't even exist or live to have those wishes.
Exactly, you do follow animalistic instincts, and you are deluded if you think you have anything to protect. And you would be wrong, because your jugement is based on the idea of revenge.
Like Machiavelli said, better to be feared than loved.
That was the point of my question. How is the so-called qur'an alone community any different from narcissistic dictatorship, which is described in the Prince?
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In comparing the Bible and the Qur'an, the Qur'an seems a kinder and more restrained book than the lunacy found in the Bible.
I would not say a book, due to the nature of the fabricated modern Arabic, contains NO and NOT in every other sentence and vows of retribution for those it defines as disbelievers to be anything else other than lunacy.
At the end of the day we are human beings, a kind of animal closely related to other animals, and we should be working on making our experience a more pleasant one and contributing to what we consider to be good and better and best of all.
Or you can try to be something higher than animal, like reducing your instinctive drive and emotions, for instance and judge the situation or events around you without excess of emotions.
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I'm not sure that reduced emotionality is always better or safer, which is why I brought up those animal studies contrasting it with the enotionally handicapped psychopaths.
Rationality itself is a necessary absurdity. There is no sense for example in noses being on faces or faces existing as they do or flowers etc. Its all absurdity from nowhere and baseless. Of all these chaotic things though, ideas like care and justice have emerged. The Qur'an simply warns people with the suggestion that these things are fromna source that invents them and can change them and will judge and punish and reward the humans, notions it also is said to have invented baselessly without any real reference as is necessary for the Topmost or First and Ultimate, it makes things up ex nihilo or from and by itself.
So people are supposed to think a bit and carefully run on the strategy they think might best lead to their survival and increased sense of benefit, pleasure, and reward, like animals, even in a maze.
I do agree than justice is among one of the most abused definitions out there. So is logic, which itself is not absolute, of course not. This is why when people judge by executing the silly commandments like 100 lashes or even stoning to death, which appeared due to what I call in the other thread as 'materialistic monotheism', it looks pity, not just. But every action you do can be attributed to your animalistic motivation, something that the authors on this stuff would write, or something, which, in turn, resists your animalistic actions. You always have the choice but you are often confronted with emotions, such as when you pray for someone to 'be dealed with', this is so primitive I can't describe it in words. But if you try to make the person better or simply leave instead of being emotional and curse or impose your power upon someone, this is how you choose to go against the animal in you to become something higher.
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That's logic and there's no room for emotion.
If you talk of logic as something absolute, which by definition it is, you can't be 100% unemotional as a human being unless of course you are a machine. You judge situations based on emotions even if you act like a coldblooded autistic.
Mandatory reading for you The Snow Queen, Andersen, H.C.
