Can we really blame exmuslims for leaving faith?

[huruf]

I understand what you say, baitachal, I said something to that effect also in the thread on

any good articles woman can lead prayers...

On the other hand I am realle adverse to the guilt focus. Pointing out guilt most of the time only creates hindrances and does not help in the least. We are all somewhat guilty at some point or other, but most of the time when a third person points out the guilt it is th wrong guilt.

Guilt is a wrong feeling. I fyou know what you have done wrong, correct, without guilt. If you don't know what you have done wrong, pointing out guilt will push you down, not up.

You have to analyse your doings and outlooks and subjacent stands without guilt, objectively, not to condemn you or save you, BUT TO KNOW. And when you know you will be able to come up with better views of everything and with better attitudes.

Nobody wrongs him or herself knowingly. What most people do wrong for htemsleves, they do not realise. As it were, they are on automatic pilot set on the wrong course.

One always must ask her or himself, what his or her motives are. Why does one act and think the way one does. Not cheating one self, sincerity towards and with oneself is the first stake inbuilding any character for goodness.

Salaam

[A_Submitter]

--

[EdQ]

Salam Baitchal,

I responded to this question on another one of your posts - I don't understand why people define themselves by what they are not.

I do think that some people turn away from Islam because of the stigma associated with it, or because of negative stereotypes promoted by the media, or by the Hadithist versions, but if they turn away then they were probably just following other men - not the actual faith of Islam.

Salam
Ed

[HP_TECH]

It is also perfectly possible for someone to have accepted the faith and then led astray by Allah

I do not deny such a possibility.

Meaning I do not think that all ex-muslims that have ever existed, were never at any point real believers.
Perhaps they were and then became disbelievers.

In the end, if Allah intends for them to astray, are you the one to guide them?

[EdQ]

Me?

[HP_TECH]

No just in general. I should have used a different pronoun, maybe we.
Also more or less directed at the OP

[EdQ]

It is also perfectly possible for someone to have accepted the faith and then led astray by Allah

I do not deny such a possibility.

Meaning I do not think that all ex-muslims that have ever existed, were never at any point real believers.
Perhaps they were and then became disbelievers.

In the end, if Allah intends for them to astray, are you the one to guide them?

I am re-visiting this question of ex-Muslims. This is my personal view.

I think that many of us at some point in our lives have been "in love" with another person.
We probably thought that this thing called LOVE which we felt was real (although we couldn't touch it) - some of us probably fell "out of love" with that person.

To me, belief in a higher power is more spiritual and uplifting than the other (non-touchable) thing called love.

So when we believe in God alone, that belief should change our foundations - after all we believe (when we actually are believing) that through our belief and the ensuing righteous actions, we will gain access to the gardens of hereafter.

This belief should change our fundamental being as if affects not only our life on this planet, but the hereafter. I.e more profound than even love.

If someone chooses to disbelieve for whatever reason, then perhaps the faith was not really in their heart in the first place - this is why they found a substitute for the faith - even if it was disbelief. They would otherwise not have risked the foundations of this life and the hereafter.

I know many Hadithists, Christians & Jews who go through life "believing" and then stop and become atheists. Its almost as if they were blindly following a set of rituals than having believed in the first place.

All of these groups cannot blame anyone but themselves - they follow peer pressure and follow their peers - without really critically assessing what they are doing. They work to be part of a group and they want to bring others into their group and become bigger and more potent. That is not my idea of belief.

Salam
Ed

[imrankhawaja]

everybody is what he is..

nobody is dishonest with their own self.. thats why we have sunni, shia, christian, jews, buddists, hindus, sikh
black, white, poor, rich, handsome, ugly, normal,abnormal,athiest,agnostic and lot more flavors that are created by God..

he is the one who creates all this so that he test us with what he provide us..

but in the end thats the brain and abilty of a person is responsible for what he is .. who is to blame ?

what is the fault of an athiest whose mind is unable to understand the nature of God or demi gods that every religion of this planet have...

some worship kabba and muhammand
some worship jesus and maryum
some worship ram, sita, hanuman
some worship budda
some worship baba guru nanak

idols and idols everywhere...

athiest is intelligent in all of the above .. atleast he is not a blind follower

[A_Submitter]

everybody is what he is..

nobody is dishonest with their own self.. thats why we have sunni, shia, christian, jews, buddists, hindus, sikh
black, white, poor, rich, handsome, ugly, normal,abnormal,athiest,agnostic and lot more flavors that are created by God..

he is the one who creates all this so that he test us with what he provide us..

but in the end thats the brain and abilty of a person is responsible for what he is .. who is to blame ?

what is the fault of an athiest whose mind is unable to understand the nature of God or demi gods that every religion of this planet have...

some worship kabba and muhammand
some worship jesus and maryum
some worship ram, sita, hanuman
some worship budda
some worship baba guru nanak

idols and idols everywhere...

athiest is intelligent in all of the above .. atleast he is not a blind follower

'(
Atheist is in fact a blind follower because he/she rejects while not knowing why. They blindly follow the devil.

[imrankhawaja]

'(
Atheist is in fact a blind follower because he/she rejects while not knowing why. They blindly follow the devil.

no he did not rejects ,

actually he did not find any evidence of diety called version of gods

he jst trying to figuring it out , what is the reality , so he is on a mission same like once abraham was on mission
abraham test , the sun God, moon God, star God, but he disappointed by all of them

in the end he understand the one who create all this is eligibble for a God...

athiest is doing same thing he beleives what creates all this universe is force of nature (on other words he is very close to the real God)...

blind follwers are sunni, shia, christian ,jews, buddists , who dnt know their gods and demi gods they just make god in to human which is a clear offence against the nature of real creator

[Amra94]

'(
Atheist is in fact a blind follower because he/she rejects while not knowing why. They blindly follow the devil.

True that, they worship their desires aka following the devil

[imrankhawaja]

True that, they worship their desires aka following the devil

actually i come to know athiest dnt beleive in devils too rotfl
he did not worship his desires he is searching for truth ..
human being is designed to fullfill their desires like, eat,wear,understanding the nature etc..

[Amra94]

actually i come to know athiest dnt beleive in devils too rotfl
he did not worship his desires he is searching for truth ..
human being is designed to fullfill their desires like, eat,wear,understanding the nature etc..

Youre defending a group of people who mock believers nope

[imrankhawaja]

Youre defending a group of people who mock believers nope

no actually i m not defending anybody

i m telling you what they think..

ur only drawback is this you did not read the previous posts of the subject and did not comprehend what i m trying to convey ,,

anyway..
in short the sect athiest is not different than all other religious sects these are labels what community give to eachother..

now look we all have a label , quranist/ahle quran/God aloners
if you say this label infront of sunni/shia/ahle hadith they will think about you the same way how you are thinking about athiests..

according to them we are kaffirs/hadith rejectors/dwellers of fire/ ghustakhe rasool and lot of other flavours what they think..and on top of that we will go to hell because on the day of judgement we will not have the intercession of prophet ..

what i want to tell you in all my previous posts is this..
be a good human , thats what the first requirement of God system

if you are not a good human how can you be a good muslim(peacemaker) ...

and about mocking every beleiver sunni,shia,christian,jew,muslims all mock to eachother ..

True that, they worship their desires aka following the devil

now look at your bold part ...
it convey me a message that the one who serve his desire is a devil.. which is totally/absolutelty/definately wrong in my understandings

because if we did not serve our desires the whole concept of our purpose look imperfect...

even we have a desire to achieve janna(garden of bliss)
without desire humanbeing= 0

[EdQ]

.......

now look at your bold part ...
it convey me a message that the one who serve his desire is a devil.. which is totally/absolutelty/definately wrong in my understandings

because if we did not serve our desires the whole concept of our purpose look imperfect...

even we have a desire to achieve janna(garden of bliss)
without desire humanbeing= 0

The way I see this is that if your desire goes with the path that God has to tread in the Final Testament, then it has to be good. In other words if you desire to help people then that is good as God asks us to do this.
If you desire to save lives that is also good.

However, lets assume (for the sake of argument and totally theoretically), that you desire to fulfill your lust of food, hate, sex, murder etc - that is akin to worshiping the devil. The devil wants us to do stuff that goes against God and against what God ordains for humans.

Salam
Ed

[imrankhawaja]

In other words if you desire to help people then that is good as God asks us to do this.

However, lets assume (for the sake of argument and totally theoretically), that you desire to fulfill your lust of food, hate, sex, murder etc - that is akin to worshiping the devil. The devil wants us to do stuff that goes against God and against what God ordains for humans.

all these things are done with different angles..

like sex in marriage is not lust
the tasty food for surviving the stomach is not lust
the hate towards cruel is not lust
killing a killer/suicide bomber is not lust...

there is always right and wrong in everything ... not lust and desires

bold part i always do it and in the end i always disappointed because the one who i help , show their real face after a passage of time...

becoz i listen the commands to help needy.. if i never listen that command at first hand i probabaly not suffer the loss and depression which comes to me as a free package just becoz i listen some final testaments commands...
i wish i never heard those commands that save me from possible losses what i encounter in life...

but what is done so done.. now i will not gona help any needy .. its not that i m cruel its just i dnt want to get hurt again...

[EdQ]

all these things are done with different angles..

like sex in marriage is not lust
the tasty food for surviving the stomach is not lust
the hate towards cruel is not lust
killing a killer/suicide bomber is not lust...

there is always right and wrong in everything ... not lust and desires

bold part i always do it and in the end i always disappointed because the one who i help , show their real face after a passage of time...

becoz i listen the commands to help needy.. if i never listen that command at first hand i probabaly not suffer the loss and depression which comes to me as a free package just becoz i listen some final testaments commands...
i wish i never listen those commands that save me from possible lossed what i encounter in life...

so a person who overeats so gets sick is not indulging?
the man who worships his desire of sex and womanizes sporadically is not indulging?
hatred toward everyone is not hateful?

As I said in my post, if one eats for sustenance it if fine. It is not worshiping a desire.
Remember, worshiping means to make something to the crux of your life. imagine that with you examples...
If a man has sex with a woman in wedlock, in agreement with the woman - that is not worshiping his desire.
a suicide bomber killing hundreds of people does so as he worships his hate of humanity - justice is not a desire but an ordinance of God.

Salam
Ed

[huruf]

a suicide bomber killing hundreds of people does so as he worships his hate of humanity - justice is not a desire but an ordinance of God.

Salam
Ed

and if some non suicide bomber kills hundreds of people he doesn't worship his hate for humanity? What does he worship? Fun?

Salaam

[EdQ]

and if some non suicide bomber kills hundreds of people he doesn't worship his hate for humanity? What does he worship? Fun?

Salaam

I used suicide bomber as the previous poster referred to one.
For me a suicide bomber is the same as a soldier that "legally" kills lots of people in illegal invasions.
Or a politician like Blair who is responsible for genocide.

Here in Europe people don't really care which nations our armies invade or bomb and who they kill - not untill our shores see the refugees... then at that point, my neighbours get very upset - not at the invasions - but they get very angry at the refugees. They miss the irony.

Salam
Ed

[imrankhawaja]

so a person who overeats so gets sick is not indulging?
the man who worships his desire of sex and womanizes sporadically is not indulging?
hatred toward everyone is not hateful?

As I said in my post, if one eats for sustenance it if fine. It is not worshiping a desire.
Remember, worshiping means to make something to the crux of your life. imagine that with you examples...
If a man has sex with a woman in wedlock, in agreement with the woman - that is not worshiping his desire.
a suicide bomber killing hundreds of people does so as he worships his hate of humanity - justice is not a desire but an ordinance of God.

Salam
Ed

just see the colors of my message i told you in my post that lust,desires are not bad itself the act of right and wrong is bad ...

why you want to have a sex in wedlock if there is no lust...?
is having a sex in wedlock is different than having a sex with somebody else?

what is common in both of them? a state called climax(fun) thats what all is the basic theme of sex with or without wedlock..
on other words human being is a slave of that climax .. either he buy salves by wedlock or invade slaves by power like in ancient egypt pharoah invade the slaves instead of buying them

same like if a suicide bomder already planned to kill thousands of innocents i desire to stop him by killing ..
i know killing is same crime , if i kill an innocent or guilty i by default a killer? isnt it...

and about worship its an english transaltion of word "ibada" which is by default mean to serve something