The Will of God and Destiny versus the free will of Man

huruf

Knowing the views of other Quran-only Muslims is never a futile thing and indeed it is the reason why many of us are posting on here and discussing issues of importance to us.

I can understand if issues of importance to me are not important to others - and this is fine.

Peace
Ed

I did not mean it that way but rather that no matter how many times this is discussed nover will the debate be closed. In a way it is insoluble.

Salaam

EdQ

I did not mean it that way but rather that no matter how many times this is discussed nover will the debate be closed. In a way it is insoluble.

Salaam

Sure. I get you. To tell you the truth many Quran-Alone Muslims have not agreed on many issues so I am not expecting 100% agreement, but the process by which Quran-alone Muslims arrive at their conclusions is illuminating for me and the reason for me to be in these debates.

Salam
Ed

Cerberus

"Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from yourself. "

One logic that can be taken is that whenever you follow your consciousness into decision making, good/beneficial things happen, because you have taken the right decision, and you have used the gift of God (i.e your mind), which is the key to saving yourself in this life.

On the other hand, everything bad is from yourself, whenever you don't follow the mind, the consciousness, the spirit, the God in you, and you follow your low self, your easily triggered, impulsive, desiring, doubtful,...., greedy self instead. In other words you make a bad decision by default.

It's either behaving according to the consciousness or behaving otherwise. One is good, and brings good, and the other is bad and brings bad.

And yes, one consideration to be taking is that your consciousness is not separate from God, the little quiet voice in the back of your head telling you not to do that stupid thing, however your devil telling you to do it, shouting out of your heart, exciting, catchy, noisy. Of course, the little voice in the back of the head no longer gets heard. You have followed Satan, who only suggests things to you, and lets you decide.

Bottom line is that we are likely to have an entirely free will. Everything in this earth is about us. What we do.
The will of God is to test us. While our will is tested. Which means we are not free to take the tests, we are forced to, the outcome though is totally up to us, otherwise what's the point of a test if the result are from God ? It's us who are being tested.

imrankhawaja

its a difficult question due to two reasons

1 things are not clear
2 author of quran dnt want to clear the things that belong to the nature of himself..

sometimes it appears all things including destiny and outcomes are happening with the law designed by God..

sometimes it appears God can do anything he want... he can break his own law anytime he want..

sometimes it appears to us all things happened with the will of God
sometimes it appears somethings happened due to our own actions

sometimes it appears in practical life . the person who cheat get successful
sometimes it appears a person who want to walk on right path is unsuccessful in his every attempt and eventually he take a short cut what we say cheat/dishonesty..

sometimes it appears he creates the situation to test us
sometimes it appears he is the one who make us laugh and cry

its all there so that nobody can exactly understand the nature of nature..
we cannot understand , we will not understand...

he make so much attraction in this planet and material of this planet so that we fight with eachother for these materials..

how stupid we are we know all this and stilll do it.. God was right human being is ignorant and fool he accept that trust... welcome to the reality

hawk99

Peace EdQ,

Indeed we do have free will within the parameters/limits set by Allah! hmm

peace

imrankhawaja

actually we need to think from different angle..

do we really have freewill?
or are we fully able to make a freewill?

willing a freewill is also under the command of God..
example i willed to study engineering but my will didnt happen so i ended up with commerce (without my freewill)

are we able to make a freewill, i m not talking about outcomes i m talking about choosing a choice?
are we really able to choose a choice for ourself? or we have to send a request for willing our will?

the more i think about it more i get confuse..

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Remember ,because the trial can also be as a group of people/communities/.... Sometimes we force choices on each other. Does this mean GOD changed that or does it still come under our choices?
What about those enslaved,oppressed? Is it their free will? Is it GOD s will? Is it other...?
Does GOD overall plan consists of the whole ,part,or of each individual human?
Think about this way as well,if any human...For example Hitler,Stalin,Ghandi, ...were born in different eras ,will the choices of millions who were involved in their times have been different?
Yes GOD has the full picture,we have our own little picture. GOD is saying His justice prevails,hence we have got to believe Him when He says "No soul can be blamed for another,nor is GOD unjust to a single human!!!".
GOD has given us ,in His message,how to make the right decision and the instinct to seek Him and His message. I believe that decision is our own to make,yes each individual. And there lies the issue.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Someone

Salam All,

I am really interested in this question - it is one that many faiths and religions try and grapple with.

Namely, God has set a destiny for everything - yet, what about the free will of God?

I have struggled with this question for a while and now have the following understanding from reading the Quran

God had indeed set a destiny for everything - everything good and bad that happens to all life (including us).
I THINK that it is how we react to each situation that allows us rise up spiritually.
I seek refuge in God from Satan the Outcast. I THINK that GOD knows what we are thinking (ie what is in our breasts), but not what we will think or intend next (as much as this goes against the concept of ALL-KNOWING). This SEEMS to be a way to reconcile destiny with free will for me but it is weak due to obvious pitfalls.

I am not sure if God sets destinies for shorter periods on the night that is better than a thousand nights (for example).

I feel this subject is not an easy one to understand so would be interested in knowing what others have understood from the QURAN (not Hadith or Bible or Talmud).

Salam
Ed

Peace EdQ, all

Here is my understanding of this issue
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607740.msg385483#msg385483

There is no contradiction between free will and destiny.

imrankhawaja

Remember ,because the trial can also be as a group of people/communities/.... Sometimes we force choices on each other. Does this mean GOD changed that or does it still come under our choices?

no it appear to me he is the master chooser for everything .. everything choice ..
like he choose who will born in poor family who will born in rich.. he choose ur /mine face,race,religion,country,parents,reletives..

he choose the time period .. he choose the choices for us in which when we claim we have free willed but infact it was perfectly the will of God behind our so called freewill.. our so called freewill is nothing if there is not a will of good ,like see i wanted to study something else but without my will i study something else .

What about those enslaved,oppressed? Is it their free will? Is it GOD s will? Is it other...?

yes they are slaves becoz God creates the ranks so that he test us for what he provide us..
its totally the will of God , in which poor slave is unable to do anything against it.. same goes with disable person. poor person and any shit of society ..
same goes with rape case... if there is a will of God the rape will happen, if there is a will of God to stop that rape.. the police will come miracously .. and save the lucky girl becoz that girl is favored by God... rest of the girls deserve rape...?

Does GOD overall plan consists of the whole ,part,or of each individual human?

as per human mind God must be accounntable for each and and every atom of this universe..
same like when he listen to every caller when they called to God...?
thats the other matter . the reply of call is in silent mode which our ears cannnot interpret...

Think about this way as well,if any human...For example Hitler,Stalin,Ghandi, ...were born in different eras ,will the choices of millions who were involved in their times have been different?

thats very interesting question.. but why i will think like that, who i am? to ask such questions

he created and perfecgted everything according to his plan..

sometimes he make hitler/changees khan to punish people
sometimes he send the travellor with moses to save the parents by killing an innocent kid?

his will is everything .. if he wanted he can save , if he wanted to destroy somebody he dnt even care about kids like soddom ,gomorrah ,nation lot, noah and lot of nation which get destroyed including the package of innocent kids... some may b in their early childhood.. like infant...

Yes GOD has the full picture,we have our own little picture. GOD is saying His justice prevails,hence we have got to believe Him when He says "No soul can be blamed for another,nor is GOD unjust to a single human!!!".

why he create a picture in which we cannot see a full picture , why confuse creation by such artisty...
why we beleive when we dnt know what future beholds..
same like when apolitican promise to give shelter to the poor after winning he forget that shelter...
so even in this life god is unable to provide shelters to lot of people in africa.. why i m so sure there will b a shelter hereafter...? what is the evidence for it apart from some ink words .. written back in history...

GOD has given us ,in His message,how to make the right decision and the instinct to seek Him and His message. I believe that decision is our own to make,yes each individual. And there lies the issue.

yeh problem is this we cant make our decision.. things happen spontaneously and surprisingly we do it what time demads us to do..
example.. there is a human fault if a girl try to seduce him by different methods , eventually his will power will get break after some time

i mean same like a hungry person when u offer him meal he cant refuse it.. same goes with body and natural fault of human body in which u are totally depend on the functions of body not on ur decision..

GOD bless you.
Peace.

God bless you too brother..

for me my blessing is strange

he blessed me with my father death when i didnt even able to speak at nine months age..
he blessed me with the uncles full of opressors(where i get afraid more of them instead of God)
he blessed my every honest work with unsuccess work/business
he blessed my mother with lot of pain the women who i always see praying five times a day(sometimes night prayer tajjad) with one prayer longer than an hour..
she prays a lot when i asked from my elder sisters they say same thing .. so basically if she is (75 my sister who is 52 no) she saw her praying but what is the reward .. all of her kids are miles away from her and .. anyway... the reward of 50 years prayers i can clearly see..

what i wish more from my God ... i m waiting for more blessings...or perhaps one day i will be one of those who according to quran are losers..

that dosent matter anyway becoz what i can do if he write a loser in my destiny or anybody else destiny..

EdQ

Peace EdQ,

Indeed we do have free will within the parameters/limits set by Allah! hmm

peace

Salam/Peace hawk99,

I would tend to agree!

Ed

EdQ

Peace EdQ, all

Here is my understanding of this issue
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607740.msg385483#msg385483

There is no contradiction between free will and destiny.

Peace Someone,

Good description!
Isn't there a verse in the Quran that goes something along the lines that those who were to die and were hiding from confrontation would still go to the exact places where they were meant to die when their time came. Its seems like paths to the end as well as the timing are set by God. I may not have got the exact meaning but this is how I read it.

But I wonder if it is more than just the end objective that is set for us - for example, there may be some poor Palestinian baby who is born to be persecuted by the European occupation in Israel and another rich useless baby born to President Trump set for living life in the fast lane. I am not saying that one path is better than the other - only that maybe, the paths are set and each is tested according to their means - and tested equally.

I keep pondering over these issues but appreciate your diagram. I also agree that there has to be no conflict between free will and destiny - its probably just that the human mind needs to grapple with such issues for some time...

Salam
Ed

EdQ

.......

are we able to make a freewill, i m not talking about outcomes i m talking about choosing a choice?
are we really able to choose a choice for ourself? or we have to send a request for willing our will?

the more i think about it more i get confuse..

Salam,

The way I see it, we can indeed choose to think what we want - but that would just be fantasizing if there were no outcomes associated with the decision. ie I choose to fly - but not without an outcome... (extreme example of course!)

Ed

reel

what about the free will of God?

I feel constant and variable can be a way to understand that. He is constant, but his force makes us variable.

I have struggled with this question for a while and now have the following understanding from reading the Quran

God had indeed set a destiny for everything - everything good and bad that happens to all life (including us).
I THINK that it is how we react to each situation that allows us rise up spiritually.
I seek refuge in God from Satan the Outcast. I THINK that GOD knows what we are thinking (ie what is in our breasts), but not what we will think or intend next (as much as this goes against the concept of ALL-KNOWING). This SEEMS to be a way to reconcile destiny with free will for me but it is weak due to obvious pitfalls.

I'll try giving my own reflection. You see, I am in management. My first degree was all about business. I utilize it through consultations. If someone gives me current description of their business I can tell what will happen to it in the future. I can imagine the cores quite well and I have been right many times. Anyone one can do it simply by knowing all that goes in businesses. We can apply the same formula to other professions and end up with the same results. Even soccer players can calculate where the ball will go just by observing the body language of the other team players.

For God, this kind of seeing the future should be a piece of cake because he is the creator of all of us. It is like he knows the consequences of what we will get in the future just by looking at what we are doing now simply because everything belongs to him. He knows our cells. He can see it all.

We can then ask about those sudden accidents. Can we have control over them? I believe yes. Let's not forget that God did greatly favor some groups in the past. So despite him being all knowing, he allows us to enter the future the way we want.

yes they are slaves becoz God creates the ranks so that he test us for what he provide us..
its totally the will of God , in which poor slave is unable to do anything against it.. same goes with disable person. poor person and any shit of society ..
same goes with rape case... if there is a will of God the rape will happen, if there is a will of God to stop that rape.. the police will come miracously .. and save the lucky girl becoz that girl is favored by God... rest of the girls deserve rape...?

We can make sure to not anyone become disable and poor. Even rape can be eliminated, but we let the foxes leave every time. We all have the power change things. I can give a simple example. You see, in our country, there is a joke about white neighborhoods. According to it, you can leave your car unlocked and windows open at one of them for a month and still not get it vandalized or stolen. The simple idea is that whites are honest and you can trust them. They were able to build this reputation by being strict about how they should never do such crimes. Similarly, in UAE, people always made fun of how their cities had no homeless. What I am trying to say is that collective actions work, but we just don't always do that. In a way, we humans are letting the crimes happen and by this, we are welcoming the negative power God made to teach us a lesson. Quite similar to karma.

Destiny is simply based on formula of God. The concept is definitely quite confusing, but I believe we might be missing some more elements. These days I have been wondering whether souls are forever, flying and entering different creations of God. It feels as if we are never gone. The body decomposes and turns into something else in the soil. That can then start a new journey in other shapes. Can it be possible even for our souls which look like mists to do something similar? That would somehow make us constant energy/particles also.

imrankhawaja

Salam,

The way I see it, we can indeed choose to think what we want - but that would just be fantasizing if there were no outcomes associated with the decision. ie I choose to fly - but not without an outcome... (extreme example of course!)

Ed

its a poor example...

becoz it was our dream not free will to fly in the sky...

100 years ago we achieved this dream with the help of wright brothers...

willing a freewill is also an element which is missed by all scholars , becoz nobody really knows it,nor creator reveals it to anybody..

example the sons of adam one willed to kill another...
he did it..

if the wish of both of them granted it would never happen...
so we come back to same loop

whats going on ? it appears to me he creates the situation even after knowing the outcomes of situations, becoz he is God, and he is fully knowledgeable that what will happen if i create a situation like this..

so its up to God what situations he create for people.

if situation is promising then there is no trouble
if situation is not according to your plan you will create a trouble...

are you trouble maker or its God who create the situations?

i wish my elders brother of this forum help me understanding this i asked this thing plantey of times but no success yet..

EdQ

its a poor example...

becoz it was our dream not free will to fly in the sky...

100 years ago we achieved this dream with the help of wright brothers...

willing a freewill is also an element which is missed by all scholars , becoz nobody really knows it,nor creator reveals it to anybody..

example the sons of adam one willed to kill another...
he did it..

if the wish of both of them granted it would never happen...
so we come back to same loop

whats going on ? it appears to me he creates the situation even after knowing the outcomes of situations, becoz he is God, and he is fully knowledgeable that what will happen if i create a situation like this..

so its up to God what situations he create for people.

if situation is promising then there is no trouble
if situation is not according to your plan you will create a trouble...

are you trouble maker or its God who create the situations?

i wish my elders brother of this forum help me understanding this i asked this thing plantey of times but no success yet..

OK let me try one last time here.

Lust and desire are not the same thing as making them gods that are to be worshipped.

It's like fanatics who make religion a drug that pushes the to extremes.

Your postings with a recent poster were about making gods out of your desires or worshipping your desires.

Salam
Ed

imrankhawaja

OK let me try one last time here.

Lust and desire are not the same thing as making them gods that are to be worshipped.

It's like fanatics who make religion a drug that pushes the to extremes.

Your postings with a recent poster were about making gods out of your desires or worshipping your desires.

Salam
Ed

i was thinking you will gona reply me the answers what i m looking for ...
like the example of adams sons lust or desire ad role of God/religion in it

EdQ

i was thinking you will gona reply me the answers what i m looking for ...
like the example of adams sons lust or desire ad role of God/religion in it

Everything when it is due. This was the issue being discussed.

Salam
Ed

EdQ

I think I may have confused some threads.
Will respond later.
Salam
Ed

imrankhawaja

Everything when it is due. This was the issue being discussed.

Salam
Ed

lol i think i also include you in the list of those who are unable to crack this core message of first human opression..

dnt worry take ur time. its not that easy question to answer i myself unable to solve it..

imrankhawaja

I think I may have confused some threads.
Will respond later.
Salam
Ed

yes u did lol
but u dnt need to b worry sometimes in math exam i mix answers of different questions i mean formulas ...

the math of religion is not that easy what i figure..

every sect is trying to apply formula in different things ..
in math formula never give you wrong answer
in religion formula gives u multiple answers (u need to select it)