The Will of God and Destiny versus the free will of Man
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Remember ,because the trial can also be as a group of people/communities/.... Sometimes we force choices on each other. Does this mean GOD changed that or does it still come under our choices?
no it appear to me he is the master chooser for everything .. everything choice ..
like he choose who will born in poor family who will born in rich.. he choose ur /mine face,race,religion,country,parents,reletives..he choose the time period .. he choose the choices for us in which when we claim we have free willed but infact it was perfectly the will of God behind our so called freewill.. our so called freewill is nothing if there is not a will of good ,like see i wanted to study something else but without my will i study something else .
What about those enslaved,oppressed? Is it their free will? Is it GOD s will? Is it other...?
yes they are slaves becoz God creates the ranks so that he test us for what he provide us..
its totally the will of God , in which poor slave is unable to do anything against it.. same goes with disable person. poor person and any shit of society ..
same goes with rape case... if there is a will of God the rape will happen, if there is a will of God to stop that rape.. the police will come miracously .. and save the lucky girl becoz that girl is favored by God... rest of the girls deserve rape...?Does GOD overall plan consists of the whole ,part,or of each individual human?
as per human mind God must be accounntable for each and and every atom of this universe..
same like when he listen to every caller when they called to God...?
thats the other matter . the reply of call is in silent mode which our ears cannnot interpret...Think about this way as well,if any human...For example Hitler,Stalin,Ghandi, ...were born in different eras ,will the choices of millions who were involved in their times have been different?
thats very interesting question.. but why i will think like that, who i am? to ask such questions
he created and perfecgted everything according to his plan..
sometimes he make hitler/changees khan to punish people
sometimes he send the travellor with moses to save the parents by killing an innocent kid?his will is everything .. if he wanted he can save , if he wanted to destroy somebody he dnt even care about kids like soddom ,gomorrah ,nation lot, noah and lot of nation which get destroyed including the package of innocent kids... some may b in their early childhood.. like infant...
Yes GOD has the full picture,we have our own little picture. GOD is saying His justice prevails,hence we have got to believe Him when He says "No soul can be blamed for another,nor is GOD unjust to a single human!!!".
why he create a picture in which we cannot see a full picture , why confuse creation by such artisty...
why we beleive when we dnt know what future beholds..
same like when apolitican promise to give shelter to the poor after winning he forget that shelter...
so even in this life god is unable to provide shelters to lot of people in africa.. why i m so sure there will b a shelter hereafter...? what is the evidence for it apart from some ink words .. written back in history...GOD has given us ,in His message,how to make the right decision and the instinct to seek Him and His message. I believe that decision is our own to make,yes each individual. And there lies the issue.
yeh problem is this we cant make our decision.. things happen spontaneously and surprisingly we do it what time demads us to do..
example.. there is a human fault if a girl try to seduce him by different methods , eventually his will power will get break after some timei mean same like a hungry person when u offer him meal he cant refuse it.. same goes with body and natural fault of human body in which u are totally depend on the functions of body not on ur decision..
GOD bless you.
Peace.God bless you too brother..
for me my blessing is strange
he blessed me with my father death when i didnt even able to speak at nine months age..
he blessed me with the uncles full of opressors(where i get afraid more of them instead of God)
he blessed my every honest work with unsuccess work/business
he blessed my mother with lot of pain the women who i always see praying five times a day(sometimes night prayer tajjad) with one prayer longer than an hour..
she prays a lot when i asked from my elder sisters they say same thing .. so basically if she is (75 my sister who is 52 no) she saw her praying but what is the reward .. all of her kids are miles away from her and .. anyway... the reward of 50 years prayers i can clearly see..what i wish more from my God ... i m waiting for more blessings...or perhaps one day i will be one of those who according to quran are losers..
that dosent matter anyway becoz what i can do if he write a loser in my destiny or anybody else destiny..
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Peace EdQ, all
Here is my understanding of this issue
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607740.msg385483#msg385483There is no contradiction between free will and destiny.
Peace Someone,
Good description!
Isn't there a verse in the Quran that goes something along the lines that those who were to die and were hiding from confrontation would still go to the exact places where they were meant to die when their time came. Its seems like paths to the end as well as the timing are set by God. I may not have got the exact meaning but this is how I read it.But I wonder if it is more than just the end objective that is set for us - for example, there may be some poor Palestinian baby who is born to be persecuted by the European occupation in Israel and another rich useless baby born to President Trump set for living life in the fast lane. I am not saying that one path is better than the other - only that maybe, the paths are set and each is tested according to their means - and tested equally.
I keep pondering over these issues but appreciate your diagram. I also agree that there has to be no conflict between free will and destiny - its probably just that the human mind needs to grapple with such issues for some time...
Salam
Ed -
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are we able to make a freewill, i m not talking about outcomes i m talking about choosing a choice?
are we really able to choose a choice for ourself? or we have to send a request for willing our will?the more i think about it more i get confuse..
Salam,
The way I see it, we can indeed choose to think what we want - but that would just be fantasizing if there were no outcomes associated with the decision. ie I choose to fly - but not without an outcome... (extreme example of course!)
Ed
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what about the free will of God?
I feel constant and variable can be a way to understand that. He is constant, but his force makes us variable.
I have struggled with this question for a while and now have the following understanding from reading the Quran
God had indeed set a destiny for everything - everything good and bad that happens to all life (including us).
I THINK that it is how we react to each situation that allows us rise up spiritually.
I seek refuge in God from Satan the Outcast. I THINK that GOD knows what we are thinking (ie what is in our breasts), but not what we will think or intend next (as much as this goes against the concept of ALL-KNOWING). This SEEMS to be a way to reconcile destiny with free will for me but it is weak due to obvious pitfalls.I'll try giving my own reflection. You see, I am in management. My first degree was all about business. I utilize it through consultations. If someone gives me current description of their business I can tell what will happen to it in the future. I can imagine the cores quite well and I have been right many times. Anyone one can do it simply by knowing all that goes in businesses. We can apply the same formula to other professions and end up with the same results. Even soccer players can calculate where the ball will go just by observing the body language of the other team players.
For God, this kind of seeing the future should be a piece of cake because he is the creator of all of us. It is like he knows the consequences of what we will get in the future just by looking at what we are doing now simply because everything belongs to him. He knows our cells. He can see it all.
We can then ask about those sudden accidents. Can we have control over them? I believe yes. Let's not forget that God did greatly favor some groups in the past. So despite him being all knowing, he allows us to enter the future the way we want.
yes they are slaves becoz God creates the ranks so that he test us for what he provide us..
its totally the will of God , in which poor slave is unable to do anything against it.. same goes with disable person. poor person and any shit of society ..
same goes with rape case... if there is a will of God the rape will happen, if there is a will of God to stop that rape.. the police will come miracously .. and save the lucky girl becoz that girl is favored by God... rest of the girls deserve rape...?We can make sure to not anyone become disable and poor. Even rape can be eliminated, but we let the foxes leave every time. We all have the power change things. I can give a simple example. You see, in our country, there is a joke about white neighborhoods. According to it, you can leave your car unlocked and windows open at one of them for a month and still not get it vandalized or stolen. The simple idea is that whites are honest and you can trust them. They were able to build this reputation by being strict about how they should never do such crimes. Similarly, in UAE, people always made fun of how their cities had no homeless. What I am trying to say is that collective actions work, but we just don't always do that. In a way, we humans are letting the crimes happen and by this, we are welcoming the negative power God made to teach us a lesson. Quite similar to karma.
Destiny is simply based on formula of God. The concept is definitely quite confusing, but I believe we might be missing some more elements. These days I have been wondering whether souls are forever, flying and entering different creations of God. It feels as if we are never gone. The body decomposes and turns into something else in the soil. That can then start a new journey in other shapes. Can it be possible even for our souls which look like mists to do something similar? That would somehow make us constant energy/particles also.
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Salam,
The way I see it, we can indeed choose to think what we want - but that would just be fantasizing if there were no outcomes associated with the decision. ie I choose to fly - but not without an outcome... (extreme example of course!)
Ed
its a poor example...
becoz it was our dream not free will to fly in the sky...
100 years ago we achieved this dream with the help of wright brothers...
willing a freewill is also an element which is missed by all scholars , becoz nobody really knows it,nor creator reveals it to anybody..
example the sons of adam one willed to kill another...
he did it..if the wish of both of them granted it would never happen...
so we come back to same loopwhats going on ? it appears to me he creates the situation even after knowing the outcomes of situations, becoz he is God, and he is fully knowledgeable that what will happen if i create a situation like this..
so its up to God what situations he create for people.
if situation is promising then there is no trouble
if situation is not according to your plan you will create a trouble...are you trouble maker or its God who create the situations?
i wish my elders brother of this forum help me understanding this i asked this thing plantey of times but no success yet..
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its a poor example...
becoz it was our dream not free will to fly in the sky...
100 years ago we achieved this dream with the help of wright brothers...
willing a freewill is also an element which is missed by all scholars , becoz nobody really knows it,nor creator reveals it to anybody..
example the sons of adam one willed to kill another...
he did it..if the wish of both of them granted it would never happen...
so we come back to same loopwhats going on ? it appears to me he creates the situation even after knowing the outcomes of situations, becoz he is God, and he is fully knowledgeable that what will happen if i create a situation like this..
so its up to God what situations he create for people.
if situation is promising then there is no trouble
if situation is not according to your plan you will create a trouble...are you trouble maker or its God who create the situations?
i wish my elders brother of this forum help me understanding this i asked this thing plantey of times but no success yet..
OK let me try one last time here.
Lust and desire are not the same thing as making them gods that are to be worshipped.
It's like fanatics who make religion a drug that pushes the to extremes.
Your postings with a recent poster were about making gods out of your desires or worshipping your desires.
Salam
Ed -
OK let me try one last time here.
Lust and desire are not the same thing as making them gods that are to be worshipped.
It's like fanatics who make religion a drug that pushes the to extremes.
Your postings with a recent poster were about making gods out of your desires or worshipping your desires.
Salam
Edi was thinking you will gona reply me the answers what i m looking for ...
like the example of adams sons lust or desire ad role of God/religion in it -
Everything when it is due. This was the issue being discussed.
Salam
Edlol i think i also include you in the list of those who are unable to crack this core message of first human opression..
dnt worry take ur time. its not that easy question to answer i myself unable to solve it..
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I think I may have confused some threads.
Will respond later.
Salam
Edyes u did lol
but u dnt need to b worry sometimes in math exam i mix answers of different questions i mean formulas ...the math of religion is not that easy what i figure..
every sect is trying to apply formula in different things ..
in math formula never give you wrong answer
in religion formula gives u multiple answers (u need to select it) -
its a poor example...
becoz it was our dream not free will to fly in the sky...
100 years ago we achieved this dream with the help of wright brothers...
willing a freewill is also an element which is missed by all scholars , becoz nobody really knows it,nor creator reveals it to anybody..
example the sons of adam one willed to kill another...
he did it..if the wish of both of them granted it would never happen...
so we come back to same loopwhats going on ? it appears to me he creates the situation even after knowing the outcomes of situations, becoz he is God, and he is fully knowledgeable that what will happen if i create a situation like this..
so its up to God what situations he create for people.
if situation is promising then there is no trouble
if situation is not according to your plan you will create a trouble...are you trouble maker or its God who create the situations?
i wish my elders brother of this forum help me understanding this i asked this thing plantey of times but no success yet..
Ok, I will start to try to get my threads sorted out here - it looks like my hiking trip really had an affect on me!
Anyway, I will to fly and I am not able to it means I do not have the will - I don't mean about flying in airplanes. I mean like superman.
You have responded that this is a dream.This is precisely my point. When one wills to do something that they cannot do it is fantasizing.
So even if you will to do a degree in being an engineer but your training takes you to get a degree in something else, then you were dreaming.
If I will something I am actually able to do and I want to do and I can achieve then I have realized my will. Otherwise my will is an useless exercise of intellectual gratification and not will at all.
Salam
Ed -
I feel constant and variable can be a way to understand that. He is constant, but his force makes us variable.
I have struggled with this question for a while and now have the following understanding from reading the Quran
I'll try giving my own reflection. You see, I am in management. My first degree was all about business. I utilize it through consultations. If someone gives me current description of their business I can tell what will happen to it in the future. I can imagine the cores quite well and I have been right many times. Anyone one can do it simply by knowing all that goes in businesses. We can apply the same formula to other professions and end up with the same results. Even soccer players can calculate where the ball will go just by observing the body language of the other team players.
For God, this kind of seeing the future should be a piece of cake because he is the creator of all of us. It is like he knows the consequences of what we will get in the future just by looking at what we are doing now simply because everything belongs to him. He knows our cells. He can see it all.
We can then ask about those sudden accidents. Can we have control over them? I believe yes. Let's not forget that God did greatly favor some groups in the past. So despite him being all knowing, he allows us to enter the future the way we want.
We can make sure to not anyone become disable and poor. Even rape can be eliminated, but we let the foxes leave every time. We all have the power change things. I can give a simple example. You see, in our country, there is a joke about white neighborhoods. According to it, you can leave your car unlocked and windows open at one of them for a month and still not get it vandalized or stolen. The simple idea is that whites are honest and you can trust them. They were able to build this reputation by being strict about how they should never do such crimes. Similarly, in UAE, people always made fun of how their cities had no homeless. What I am trying to say is that collective actions work, but we just don't always do that. In a way, we humans are letting the crimes happen and by this, we are welcoming the negative power God made to teach us a lesson. Quite similar to karma.
Destiny is simply based on formula of God. The concept is definitely quite confusing, but I believe we might be missing some more elements. These days I have been wondering whether souls are forever, flying and entering different creations of God. It feels as if we are never gone. The body decomposes and turns into something else in the soil. That can then start a new journey in other shapes. Can it be possible even for our souls which look like mists to do something similar? That would somehow make us constant energy/particles also.
Salam reel,
Apologies for any confusion in me getting my threads crossed.
I will attempt to correct this by posting the right message on the right thread (and I marvel I don't fully understand the Quran!).You have a good take on these things - but what do you make of how different some peoples lives are to others - like the poor Palestinian youngster getting persecuted or the privileged European boy - their lives/paths are very different - and probably also their ends. It seems that an "accident" of birth would create this inequality unless of course some of our paths were destined to be so different.
Both the persecuted person and the privileged person would be given tests in this lower life - and they would respond according to their intentions but their paths are so different and well,.... unequal.
Did you read the verse in the Quran that says that those who were avoiding going to battles for fear of death would still arise and go to the very positions where they were to die - it almost reads as they can make small decisions but the bigger ones like when they are to die are already set.
Salam
Ed -
This is precisely my point. When one wills to do something that they cannot do it is fantasizing.
So even if you will to do a degree in being an engineer but your training takes you to get a degree in something else, then you were dreaming.
no actually i gave you an example of one of my biggest choice of life in which circumstances forces me to change my passion in to just a degree label...
i was good at science instead of commerce thts why my grading was drop down to c fom a..
what i m trying to tell you are we really freewill creation or our wills are also the name of a system what God create in a box..
we only will what is a will of God too
if God dnt will , our freewill hold no worth..when we willing to take an action and we assume it is done because it was a freewill of human
opposite happen when God will is something else compare to human ..thats the confusing part
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Salam reel,
Apologies for any confusion in me getting my threads crossed.
I will attempt to correct this by posting the right message on the right thread (and I marvel I don't fully understand the Quran!).You have a good take on these thingsSalam bro,
Oh don't apologize. The concept in general is kind of hard to think about and put it all into words. It gets entangled in my head. That's why, I called it confusing. I don't understand the Quran fully either )- but what do you make of how different some peoples lives are to others - like the poor Palestinian youngster getting persecuted or the privileged European boy - their lives/paths are very different - and probably also their ends. It seems that an "accident" of birth would create this inequality unless of course some of our paths were destined to be so different.
Both the persecuted person and the privileged person would be given tests in this lower life - and they would respond according to their intentions but their paths are so different and well,.... unequal.
The privileged European boy is not so privileged after all when we see how our western society is structured currently. We surely have good welfare programs, but money can't buy love. Hence, suicide is common in most of European regions.
Both the boys are victims of the choices made by their parents. You can check out <a href="http//www.afidated.com/2016/01/theories-of-mary-parker-follett.html">Mary Follett's Group Process</a> to see how it is all happening. What today you and me decide and do will impact not only our own, but also other people's future. It is all about the intermingling of the individualism and group.
Did you read the verse in the Quran that says that those who were avoiding going to battles for fear of death would still arise and go to the very positions where they were to die -
Salam
EdBut then we also have
those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.The sad thing is that it doesn't seem like he is supporting the Palestinians and certain verses seem to suggest that they are choosing to be persecuted
497 Indeed, those whom the angels take while wronging themselves - will say, "In what were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination.
4 98-99 Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way - For those it is expected that Allah will pardon them, and Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.
We do know for sure that Palestinians have the option to migrate. Majority of the Christians among them and plenty of other people around the world do that to avoid persecution. Palestinians, just like Israelis can also demand for far better land. They are capable of fresh start because they are open minded and have thirst for progress. They can give their children a better tomorrow.
It would be interesting to see how Israel and its supporters around the world will react if Palestine says, "Okay, we give up. We'll let you fulfill all your goals".
it almost reads as they can make small decisions but the bigger ones like when they are to die are already set.
Yeah, from my observation, I believe at least five things are predetermined for an individual and they are birth, the place where he takes birth , death and day of judgement. We also know that every human being on earth will face challenges of some sort. I wonder how the world will be if these challenges didn't exist.
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Please refer to my other post to you.
PEACE
Edwhich other post? did you really find the answer of that question what i ask (story of adam sons) bravo
i love to read that can you send me the link plz.. thanx
peace
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Salam Reel,
When I apologize to myself for my oversightedness I tend to broadcast it to others who feel the impact. Good or bad that't the way I do it. )
Salam bro,
Oh don't apologize. The concept in general is kind of hard to think about and put it all into words. It gets entangled in my head. That's why, I called it confusing. I don't understand the Quran fully either )The privileged European boy is not so privileged after all when we see how our western society is structured currently. We surely have good welfare programs, but money can't buy love. Hence, suicide is common in most of European regions.
I hate to say it because suicide is an easy way out and now the disgusting concept of assisted murder (suicide) is even legal in some states in the EU - but maybe suicide is better (ie killing oneself) then murdering others just because one has a death wish and a mistaken idea that by killing civilians one will get to paradise (eg ISIS). I would recommend assisted suicide to all of ISIS. I am really sick and tired of them as well as their western supporters like the US and UK secular Atheist governments who used them as to topple the dictator Assad.
Both the boys are victims of the choices made by their parents. You can check out <a href="http//www.afidated.com/2016/01/theories-of-mary-parker-follett.html">Mary Follett's Group Process</a> to see how it is all happening. What today you and me decide and do will impact not only our own, but also other people's future. It is all about the intermingling of the individualism and group.
Agree that the boys are victims of choices of their parents - but the destiny for the boys to be born into those circumstances was not - ie either could have fortuitously been born into the other circumstance - my point is that this process falls on the One who controls destiny and it is not really free will.
Then there is the will to improve on the part of the parents - many people do indeed improve - however, many do not improve and stay in the comfortable mess they find themselves in.
Agree also that our decision will impact us and others - but imagine if destiny finds me as an ISIS lowlife terrorist and you as Netanyahu the butcher? Imagine the kind of sickness we would be in as well as the sheer numbers of people our actions would affect? Then imagine the other extreme, if you were an accountant in middle management and I was a library clerk.... That would be quite different in terms of destinies... I am sure those destinies would make us see things in different ways to the first case..
But then we also have
those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.For me this illustrates destiny through and through. ie some people do not have the power to influence big decisions and constantly pray for help from our Creator. Others like Dhul Qarneyn (Surah 1 are endued to be in positions to affect the lives of others in a positive way. The "Muslim" world completely lacks any remote sign of a person with power and good intentions who wants to help others.
They usually stop at power to accumulate massive wealth.The sad thing is that it doesn't seem like he is supporting the Palestinians and certain verses seem to suggest that they are choosing to be persecuted
I think in general the so called "Muslim" world has been cursed by God partly for their invention of scriptures which they hold equal with the Quran but also for their general lack of care for humanity. So it is not just Palestinians but ALL so called "Muslims".
When "Muslims" realize their lack of development in life is due to God because "Muslims" have deserted God's last testament (and repent), I am sure God will grant the upper hand to Muslims who purify their faith and reject man-made scribbles.One thing is for sure - Palestine was taken in the Final Crusade by the Racial/Tribal Christians and the Talmudic Jewish extremists were duped into thinking they were getting the biblical "Israel" - what they were getting was a platform to be slaughtered ..... and gifted to them by Racial/Tribal Christians who saw this as the best way to take Palestine away from the "Muslims" - ie take the jewel and give to someone you hate - so the hated ones get alot of heat but you achieve your objective of getting access to Palestine when ever you want. Things have a way of coming full circle though.
Just imagine all the Jews killed by the Great Christian European, Hitler. Many of them were not able to escape - lots were helped by wealthy and decent Jews in Europe to come over here and change their identities and assimilate and others were sent by Hitler to Palestine.
Imagine just one single "Muslim" nation exists that helps Palestinians (like the Jews were helped) - as much as Iran cries as loud as possible about it all the time - but this is just world politics.
You are right God has willed Israel to exist and it is existing - for now. But many commentators are worried about its existence and sell-by date because it has become akin to the Nazi empire - murdering Palestinians.
No one is helping the Palestinians apart from a few Europeans with a shred of decency and a conscience.
If the Palestinians were to give up, Israel would just look to evict the Jordanians next - it is already working to secure its part of Syria by supporting ISIS and bombing Assad - it always allied with the Saudi Arabians and UK and US to try and destroy Syria.I realize this posting is getting very political but it does touch on the destinies of the people involved.
Your views are interesting.
Salam
Ed -
God bless you too brother..
for me my blessing is strange
he blessed me with my father death when i didnt even able to speak at nine months age..
he blessed me with the uncles full of opressors(where i get afraid more of them instead of God)
he blessed my every honest work with unsuccess work/business
he blessed my mother with lot of pain the women who i always see praying five times a day(sometimes night prayer tajjad) with one prayer longer than an hour..
she prays a lot when i asked from my elder sisters they say same thing .. so basically if she is (75 my sister who is 52 no) she saw her praying but what is the reward .. all of her kids are miles away from her and .. anyway... the reward of 50 years prayers i can clearly see..what i wish more from my God ... i m waiting for more blessings...or perhaps one day i will be one of those who according to quran are losers..
that dosent matter anyway becoz what i can do if he write a loser in my destiny or anybody else destiny..
i was influenced by negetive thinking of life due to which i just write whatsup comes in my mind..(without verification of heart) on other words my these statements are not really the way i presented them.. i want to add more things in it.. to complete the story this time heart and mind are activated..
i m blessed that after taking my father from me you blessed me 3 uncles full of love out of 4 , fourth one till date also claim he love me..
i m blessed that even after my stubborn nature of childhood nobody ever mistreat me , not in home or in outside.. (some small incidents happens with everybody life so its forgetabble anyway)..
i m blessed i have a mother full of love and care from my childhood till today..
i m blessed that i did great jobs and respected jobs in my life in which i never accused of being a dishonest worker on other hand i get awards and achievements throughout my academic and professional career..i m blessed tht my mother recover soon after pain with the blessing of God within a first year of cancer..(i never saw any cancer case recover so quick like this with in year at 75 years age)
i m blessed that my mother loves God and she said i m very happy from God for whatever he gives me and she said she is fully peaceful from heart .. (even after a tough life) now she is even more happy she travel to different parts of globe for looking her kids and gandkids.
the commments regarding my mother and God.. i have no right to express them .. (at my earlier post)..may God forgive all my shortcomings and misunderstandings from the selfish desires of innnerself..