PLEASE DON'T RUN AWAY
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Peace.
I am Natu, the author of the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=42884#42884
I would like to invite Layth, Edip and anyone else who supports physical ritual worship, who has sufficient knowledge to debate the issue, to participate in the thread shown above. 'Salat' is too important an issue to disregard before continuing the promotion of God alone. We would be extremely grateful if somebody who supports physical ritual worship came to participate in that thread. This is the way to bring unity on the subject of 'salat', as is appreciated by many who participate in that thread and those who read it. Thanks to all brothers and sisters who have already participated and those who intend to participate. Please tell us in this thread whether you intend to participate or not, so that arrangements can be made for the discussion to progress. Thanks.
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Peace brother Natu,
I would like to invite Layth, Edip and anyone else who supports physical ritual worship, who has sufficient knowledge to debate the issue, to participate in the thread shown above. 'Salat' is too important an issue to disregard before continuing the promotion of God alone. We would be extremely grateful if somebody who supports physical ritual worship came to participate in that thread.
Unless someone is willing to claim that The God and His "malaika" do "physical ritual worship" for the prophet (3356) and those who have faith (3343), then the fact that "salat" is not "physical ritual worship" is indisputable. Thus, even the staunchest Sunni has to admit that "salat" is not "physical ritual worship".
Another indisputable fact that even the most radical sectarian will admit is that the present "physical ritual" that sectarians named Salat cannot be constructed based on the great reading.
So the question is not whether "salat" is "physical ritual worship" or not. The question is can one or two verses from the great reading be taken in isolation and used to justify a preconceived idea that "salat" is "physical ritual worship"? The answer is "yes" and the same can be said about any preconceived falsehood. Sectarians take one or two verses in isolation to justify idolizing the prophet, stoning for adultery, and pretty much anything they imagine.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace.
I understand all of what you said in your post, but I still don't understand why as well as new members, key players (I'm trying not to say popular people or article writers) other than yourself still uphold physical ritual worship. I'm all fair and good rejecting physical ritual worship myself, but I worry that a few decades down the line our community will divide (if it isn't already that is), and I'd hate that to happen, without knowing why people engaged so strictly in physical ritual worship even after rejecting hadith books. So effectively the whole point of the thread was to bring unity, not to promote either view. But what I don't understand is that even though activity in the salat section of free-minds (other than 'THE THREAD - ...') had practically vanished apart from the many brothers and sisters reading and contributing to 'THE THREAD', people like Layth and Edip didn't turn up at all on that thread, and that is what worries me.
I hope I am wrong but it seems to me that they are satisfied as they are and can't be bothered discussing this, and it is thought that we can go on without unity as we are right now. It seems as though as long as we reject hadith books we're alright, but nobody is adressing the views of the many members (posibly the sizeable majority of members) of this website who see that there is one important issue from hadith books which people aren't rejecting, but here we are, still banging on about the pope and batteries from 2000 years ago. All this can come later, we need to firstly decide on the fundamentals - THIS IS THE TRUTH. We need to have one strong message to promote, not to get people to reject hadith books and leave them blundering as to what the fundamentals are. Fair enough we can have our different views, but NOT IN FUNDAMENTALS like salat - this is what stops people from accepting monotheism.
I simply cannot get my head round why people can go on debating hours on irrelevant things in other parts of free-minds, and not bother putting up even a single post in a thread that could possibly unify us all and save some from the fire, whoever that may be.
The way I see it, the aim of this website should not be to 'free your mind from hadith books', rather it should focus more on the one, perfect, clear, unambiguous message from God, which would reject all corruptions and not just a small fraction called 'hadith books'.
I don't know how best to put it, but the aim of what I will say now is to provoke the key players to start contributing...
IT IS THE TRUTH TO SAY THAT PHYSICAL RITUAL WORSHIP IS WRONG AND NOT SUPPORTED IN THE QURAN IN ANY WAY - IF ANYONE (NO MATTER HOW OLD OR EXPERIENCED) HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS THEN PLEASE PROCEED TO...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=42884#42884
I have purposefully been somewhat agressive in this post to raise awareness, but the thread I have just linked is nothing like this, people who have said things like...
I thank you for this very helpful and open minded discussion
SO this thread was built on an excellent premise and I intend to help bring a unified understanding.
I also do appreciate that all were repectful of the people that supported ritual prayer. At times, I saw the term idolator thrown from the beginning. It did not happen here and that is very appreciated.
In inviting to participate in that thread I'm not saying lets come and learn how to work round the Quran to reject physical worship, although the logic behind physical prostration in any direction is enough for me personally to reject physical ritual worship, I believe this has to be supported by the Quran as well, that is why we opened a thread to discuss the verses which may lead to physical ritual worship and it has been successful so far, it hasn't just been a match where we flame each other for our views.
The way I see it, we need to get to the every last detail in one thread so that a day can come when this website has either only articles which support physical ritual worship, or reject physical ritual worship as part of the conspiracies of the arabs, and not a mish mash of both which leads to confusion for both arabs and non-arabs, and gives an excuse for sectarians and non-muslims to mock us and reject the truth. I pray for the day that on the main page of this website there is a statement in bold letters that either says 'ritual worship is right' or 'ritual worship is wrong' instead of just mocking sectarians for their blunders.
MUSLIMS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE UNIFIED - IF WE ARE NOT UNIFIED ON THE FUNDAMENTALS OF ISLAM THEN WE CANNOT CALL OURSELVES A GROUP OF MUSLIMS - NO MATTER HOW CONFIDENT WE ARE THAT EACH ONE OF US IS RIGHT. THJIS IS HARSH BUT ITS THE TRUTH.
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peace be upon you Natu,
I actually think the understanding of slw on the forum is more unified than it seems.
The reason it may not seem that way is because we often get the same questions being raised and responded to, over & over again, when it has actually been discussed previously on the salat section of the forum.Out of curiousity, what articles are you referring to on this site that promote traditional-style prayer?
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
I actually think the understanding of slw on the forum is more unified than it seems.
But you said yourself the following in the thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3361
Some regular members here, and often new members, still believe salat=prayer, perhaps not identical to the traditional method but similar to it.
Theres the problem. And some kind of effort needs to be made to address it.
Out of curiousity, what articles are you referring to on this site that promote traditional-style prayer?
None promote the traditional-style prayer but there are definitely residues of hadiths resulting in prostration towards a physical direction, for example in the article by our man Layth (http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat.htm), which says things like
Individuals or groups holding the Salat must conform to a unifying direction which is facedThis feature can still be witnessed in the construction of todays temples which are designed with the place for Salat oriented in a specific direction.
The normal position is for Salat to be carried out while stationary and standing.
Once the recital period is complete, the ending phase of the Salat is marked by a physical prostration to the ground
As well as this, the section What is Difference between Islam and Sunni or Shia faiths? on the main page of this website makes no mention of salat, let alone rejection of physical prostration in a physical direction, which sectarians are happy about, thinking we cant explain it without hadith books thats why we are hiding it. This is the biggest problem somebody faces when they come across God alone, and on this website We need to be open about it and show the world that were not freaked out by this issue, and we can openly expose the truths of physical ritual worship. The truth is that we are not unified on the issue of salat thats why no mention is made of it on the main page of this site, if we were unified, then we would be just as proud of non physical salat as we are of abolishing Slavery, fasting during Menstruation. We should be equally as proud to say, abolishing of idols in Arabia instead of making something like a washing powder advert and saying How can anyone do that without having to go around fishing about in the articles forum of free-minds to decide on who to believe on the topic of salat? On top of that, no link is provided to Aidid Safars book in the articles section of the books section it is accepted that sometimes he goes over the top with redefining, but the principles are the truth are they not? Even if we are unified in the forum, we need to be unified on the rest of free-minds, the areas of the website that the majority of visitors see, so that they can see that we are unified, and it is easier for them to see the truth.
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peace Natu,
I said "Some regular members here, and often new members..."
Some doesn't imply significant or majority proportion. And as for new members, we will always have that, so this is to be expected.
I do not regard the article (by Br. Layth) you referenced as a "traditional-style prayer" article, just as you acknowledged. Thus, in my mind, there are none such articles on this site.
The thread of mine that you referenced only contained one member who responded to the challenge.
Wakas
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All I'm saying is that the salat issue is still a bit iffy, we need to get together and decide whether there is physical prostration towards a physical direction or not - that is the crucial difference. Once we're through that, I think we should be able to put up something about salat on the main page of the website for all sectarians to see that we're not running away from the issue and making infinite different interpretations o it. Do you get me?
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Dear Ayman
Do you mean that
- Salli Ala
and - Aqim el Salah
mean the same thing?
I understand the first to mean "support, encourage" and the second as "observe the contact prayer".
Peace,
Edip - Salli Ala
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Peace be upon you Natu,
Thanks again for the reminder! Many people need to realize that the VERY FIRST response of those in "hell" is "we were not of those aho maintained the process(salaat)! Salaat is the process of enlightenment.
Looks like you were successful in drawing out Edip to this thread! WOW!
This is good, maybe we can clear this matter up now. -
Peace,
Congratulations people! Edip came!
Edip, I understand that you are in support of a physical salat, I would like to kindly ask for your time to share your understanding of the verses in the Quran with those who support non-physical method.
I understand you are a busy man but I think many people have been waiting to hear from you about this topic.
Also I read you article about 'arab conspiricies...' article, I went through some of Mr Safar's work and I am impressed, I would like to hear your views on his ideas because you seemed to reject some of the concepts quite harshly at start. Mr Safar seems to have written in detail about the words and language of the Quran, just want to know whether you have seen this and would also like to see your analysis, maybe you can contribute to our understanding of 'Salat/solaa'
Peace
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Peace be upon you Edip,
Let me get the ball rolling again,
I understand the first to mean "support, encourage" and the second as "observe the contact prayer".
Lets deal with the basic verses first, that way we have a foundation to use when weighing the evidence of teh other verses in question. My first question to you is, How can "salaat" be "contact PRAYER" when the word "Du'a" is used all throughout this reading(quran) to mean Prayer/calling God?
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Peace be upon you Edip,
I guess you have chosen not to discuss this.
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Salaamun alaikum,
It is apparent that EDIP's post was directed to AYMAN and he is waiting for Ayman's answer. I think that when Ayman answers his question he will jump back in !! wink
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace be upon you,
So if Ayman never responds we cannot have a meaningful discussion?
O well, peace to all anyway.
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Peace Edip,
Do you mean that
- Salli Ala
and - Aqim el Salah
mean the same thing?
No they don't mean exactly the same thing. One is a verb, "salli", the other is a common noun "salah". However, they do describe the same process.
I understand the first to mean "support, encourage" and the second as "observe the contact prayer".
What do you base such understanding on? "Support, encourage" is certainly not the meaning given by Classical Arabic dictionaries. Also, this meaning cannot be construed from all other locations where derivatives of the root "sly/slw" are used.
You seem to be doing exactly like Aidid who you criticized for making up meanings that have no basis in Arabic or the great reading.
Moreover, logically your understanding doesn't add up because "yusalun" in 3356 is in the continuous present tense. We know for a fact that The God's support and encouragement (whatever that means) of the prophet was not continuous (for example see Chapter 80).
PS. Thanks Natu for the reminder. )
Peace,
Ayman
- Salli Ala
