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Ramadan

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Man_of_Faith
    wrote on last edited by
    #32

    I basically do what Cerberus suggests around the clock, year around.

    Be well
    Qarael Amenuel

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    • B Offline
      B Offline
      brook
      wrote on last edited by
      #33

      Plausible occurs mid-summer or 1st month after full moon summer solstice...

      Definitely.

      ------1-----------2-------3--------4--------5---------6-------7-------8--------9-------10------11-------12------13
      21 Jan 642-20 Feb-22 Mar-20 Apr-19 May-18 Jun-17 Jul-15 Aug-14 Sep-13 Oct-12 Nov-12 Dec
      10 Jan 643-09 Feb-11 Mar-10 Apr-09 May-07 Jun-07 Jul-05 Aug-03 Sep-03 Oct-01 Nov-01 Dec-31 Dec
      29 Jan 644-28 Feb-29 Mar-27 Apr-27 May-25 Jun-25 Jul-23 Aug-21 Sep-21 Oct-19 Nov-19 Dec
      17 Jan 645-16 Feb-18 Mar-16 Apr-16 May-15 Jun-14 Jul-13 Aug-11 Sep-11 Oct-09 Nov-08 Dec
      07 Jan 646-05 Feb-07 Mar-05 Apr-05 May-04 Jun-03 Jul-02 Aug-01 Sep-30 Sep-30 Oct-28 Nov-28 Dec
      26 Jan 647-24 Feb-26 Mar-24 Apr-24 May-22 Jun-22 Jul-21 Aug-19 Sep-19 Oct-18 Nov-17 Dec

      Notes

      Here iddah is
      series of the full moons
      from Jan to Jan.

      A series of the full moons
      is 12 full moons (936)

      The 354 days of a 12-moon series
      fall 11 days shorter than the 365-day solar year,
      and this makes the moons come
      11 days earlier.

      When the 11 days
      add up to 29.5 days or more,
      a 13th moon appears.

      The 13th moon
      makes the moons in the next series come
      19 days later.

      Time of the full moon
      immediately after the summer solstice
      is fixed between June 21 and July 21.
      That is the shahr ramadan-hot moon.

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      • C Offline
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        clashncruz
        wrote on last edited by
        #34

        Salamu Alaykum Brook,

        This is a misquote of 936. Here is the full beginning of that verse

        The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year).

        Yes 12 months in a year (not 12 full moons by the way, as there can be more than 12), about 30 days each, gives us our Lunar Year. Which is why Ramadan is starting in about 9 days and will go for about 30 days after that insha'Allah.

        Again, no one has addressed 584 which clearly states that two months of fasting=60 days, therefore logically 1 month of fasting=30 days. I do not see what is so difficult for everyone to understand here. Am I missing something?

        Best regards and Salaam,

        Clash.

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        • N Offline
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          Noon_waalqalami
          wrote on last edited by
          #35

          This is a misquote of 936. Here is the full beginning of that verse

          The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year).

          Peace -- which word is year?

          Again, no one has addressed 584 which clearly states that two months of fasting=60 days, therefore logically 1 month of fasting=30 days. I do not see what is so difficult for everyone to understand here. Am I missing something?

          Did you not understand my prior post i.e. # of days fasting does not correlate with feeding # of poor?

          584 so who not find so fast/abstinence shahrayni/lunar cycles two successive two from before that touch dual so who not able so provide sustenance sixty poor of ...

          60 poor = 60 days

          quote author=Noon waalqalami link=topic=9609522.msg405045#msg405045 date=1495059216

          It doesn't always correlate see below feed (10) poor or if no wherewithal (3) days...

          10 poor = 3 days
          200 poor = 60 days

          589 not will call you the god in the idle talk in right hands/oaths yours and however will call you in what pledge you the right hands/oaths so reparation its provide sustenance tentet (group of ten) poor from of moderate/middle what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or liberate neck (i.e. slave) so who not find so fast/abstinence trio (i.e. group of three successive) days such reparation right hands/oaths yours when have sworn you and that guard ye of right hands/oaths yours like such shows the god for you signs his that may you thanks giving

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          • M Offline
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            MissMarple77
            wrote on last edited by
            #36

            Hi everyone,
            it would be more useful to look at the context of verse 936 and 937 together.

            936 God ordained the months twelve in number when He created the heavens and the earth. Of these, four are sacred, according to the true Faith. Therefore do not sin against yourselves by violating them. But you may fight against the idolaters in all these months, since they themselves fight against you in all of them. Know that God is with the righteous.
            937 The postponement of sacred months is a grossly impious practice, in which the unbelievers are misguided. They allow it one year and forbid it in the next, so that they may make up for the months which God has sanctified, thus making lawful what God has forbidden. Their foul acts seem fair to them God does not guide the unbelievers.

            There are twelve months, of these four are sacred. In verse 937 we are told these sacred months are arbitrarily postponed from year to year. So the sacred months are recurrent every year. So we have in 936 the twelve months of a year. And not twelve full moons, because how can you postpone the full moon? You can only postpone the sacred months.

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            • B Offline
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              brook
              wrote on last edited by
              #37

              The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year).

              In 936 Allah is saying NOTHING
              concerning the solar year
              or the lunar year or the luni-solar year
              or ANY year system.

              All He is saying is
              that
              number of the full moons is? twelve,
              iddat al-shohoor? isn? ashere shahr.

              Another thing He is not saying is
              that
              number of the full moons is NOT thirteen.

              Allah is saying... number of "shahr"s is 12.
              He is not saying it is not, it can NOT be 13.

              So it is up to you to check to see
              whether it can be thirteen as well.

              For example
              the iddah of 2018-2019...
              can it have 13 full moons?

              Here is the times of the full moons of the iddah

              -------1------------2-------3--------4--------5--------6--------7-----------8------------9------10-------11-------12------13
              27 Jun 2018-26 Jul-24 Aug-23 Sep-22 Oct-21 Nov-21 Dec-20 Jan 2019-18 Feb-20 Mar-19 Apr-18 May-16 Jun
              17 Jul 2019...

              You do not have to believe these full moon times,
              so count the full moons of 2018-2019 YOURSELF.

              Next year start with the June moon when it is full
              and go on counting until the July moon of 2019.

              Please do that to check for yourself
              whether the number is 13 or not.

              And think
              what becomes of the 12-shahr lunar year
              when there are 13 "shahr"s up in the sky?

              Finally, the word shahr in 936...
              can it be month (lasting 29.5 days)?
              Is it possible?

              Ask yourself

              Since the number of the "shahr"s from June to June/July (that is, a solar year) is 13
              and since 13 times 29.5 equals 383.5 days,
              would there be room for those 383.5 days in a 365-day solar year? Is it possible?

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                clashncruz
                wrote on last edited by
                #38

                Salamu Alaykum Brook,

                Yes there can be 13 full moons in a year. It is called a Blue Moon, which is why Shahar means month and not full moon.

                "A "Blue Moon" is the name given to the second full moon in a calendar month. Because there are roughly 29.5 days between full moons, it is unusual for two full moons to "fit" into a 30 or 31 day month (and impossible to fit into a 28 or 29 day month, so February can never have a Blue Moon)...In January and March of 1999, we had a situation which only takes place about four times a century two Blue Moons occurring in the same year. The last time this happened was in January and April of 1961 and it will not happen again until January and March of 2018. " https//nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/blue_moon.html

                Also, still no one has answered about 584, which tells us that 2 months of fasting=feeding 60 poor people for the 60 days of the two months; thus, if you did not understand 2184-2190, here it is made clear for you that 1 month of fasting (Ramandan)= feeding thirty poor people for the 30 days of the month.

                Best regards and Salaam,

                Clash.

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                • N Offline
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                  Noon_waalqalami
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #39

                  Yes there can be 13 full moons in a year. It is called a Blue Moon

                  Peace, yes correct.

                  http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

                  fullmoon # year

                  Jan 12 1 2017
                  Feb 11 2
                  Mar 12 3
                  Apr 11 4
                  May 10 5
                  Jun 9 6
                  Jul 9 1 after summer solstice
                  Aug 7 2
                  Sep 6 3
                  Oct 5 4
                  Nov 4 5
                  Dec 3 6
                  Jan 2 7 2018
                  Jan 31 8
                  Mar 2 9
                  Mar 31 10
                  Apr 30 11
                  May 29 12
                  Jun 28 1 after solstice
                  Jul 27 2
                  Aug 26 3
                  Sep 25 4
                  Oct 24 5
                  Nov 23 6
                  Dec 22 7
                  Jan 21 8 2019
                  Feb 19 9
                  Mar 21 10
                  Apr 19 11
                  May 18 12
                  Jun 17 13
                  Jul 16 1 after solstice
                  Aug 15 2
                  Sep 14 3
                  Oct 13 4
                  Nov 12 5
                  Dec 12 6
                  Jan 10 7 2020
                  Feb 9 8
                  Mar 9 9
                  Apr 8 10
                  May 7 11
                  Jun 5 12
                  Jul 5 1 after solstice

                  Also, still no one has answered about 584, which tells us that 2 months of fasting=feeding 60 poor people for the 60 days of the two months; thus, if you did not understand 2184-2190, here it is made clear for you that 1 month of fasting (Ramandan)= feeding thirty poor people for the 30 days of the month.

                  No, already answered you twice see 589 feed 10 poor is 3 days hence no correlation -- please confirm you read this?

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                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    MissMarple77
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #40

                    In 936 Allah is saying NOTHING
                    concerning the solar year
                    or the lunar year or the luni-solar year
                    or ANY year system.

                    All He is saying is
                    that
                    number of the full moons is? twelve,
                    iddat al-shohoor? isn? ashere shahr.

                    That's correct that 936 and 937 says nothing about wether it is a lunar year or a solar year. There are just the twelve months of a year. If it would be translated as "full moons" it would mean a lunar year.

                    Another thing He is not saying is
                    that
                    number of the full moons is NOT thirteen.

                    Allah is saying... number of "shahr"s is 12.
                    He is not saying it is not, it can NOT be 13.

                    That's not logical. Here is a statement about a certain number. And if there are twelve, it implies, it can not be 13 nor any other number.

                    Also in verse 2185 there is no full moon, because the fasting days are in plural, not only one day of the full moon

                    Therefore whoever of you is present in that month let from wrong. Therefore whoever of you is present in that month let him fast. But he who is ill or on a journey shall fast A SIMILAR NUMBER OF DAYS later on.

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                    • B Offline
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                      brook
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #41

                      During the same time
                      as the earth rotates around the sun ONCE, the moon rotates around the earth 12 TIMES
                      which means
                      the moon?s 12 rotations AND the earth?s 1 rotation?
                      that is, the two rotations... are simultaneous.

                      The only difference
                      is that when the moon has completed its 12 rotations in 354 days
                      the earth has 11 more days to complete its rotation in 365 days.

                      When the 11 days add up to 29.5 days or more,
                      a 13th moon appears
                      which means that this time the moon makes 13 rotations around the earth instead of 12
                      while the earth makes its 1 rotation around the sun
                      and the two rotations are simultaneous.

                      If shahr in 936 meant lunar month,
                      13 months would make 383.5 days
                      and there would be NO ROOM for the whole 383.5 days in the 365-day solar year.

                      So
                      SHAHR in 936 can not be a 29.5-day MONTH,
                      SHAHR in 936 is only a 1-night FULL MOON.

                      What manages to find room for themselves in the 365-day solar year are the 13 full moons
                      by having certain days from the first of the 13 months in the previous solar year
                      and by having certain days from the last of the 13 months in the following solar year.

                      Those certain days are 18.5 days in total (383.5 ? 365 = 18.5).

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                      • C Offline
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                        clashncruz
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #42

                        Salamu Alaykum Noon,

                        Thanks for 589, no I did not see that you mentioned that before.

                        I will have to disagree however as it seems we are comparing apples and oranges.

                        One issue is fasting the month of Ramadan, thirty days. The reason we get one day of not fasting=feeding one poor person during Ramadan is because of verses 2183-4

                        "O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,- (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew." 2183-4

                        The fact that there are 30 days in the month of Ramadan and if you were to miss fasting all of those days for some reason, maybe you were on a voyage in the North Pole and the Sun was setting that year for example, it would be considered a "hardship" and you would make up the days later by feeding 1 poor person for each day. This is fine and in the context of fasting, no problems here.

                        Your example from 589 is about someone who has taken an oath and then broken it. Let's look at the whole verse

                        "Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." 589

                        This verse clearly gives people an ability to atone for breaking their oaths, which is great. The price is feeding 10 people, clothing 10 people, or giving a slave their freedom; these are very high prices. If you are unable to do this because of poverty then you can make it up with a lesser fast, but it is preferable to pay one of the first of the three high prices, and most everyone can afford to feed 10 people, even in the poorest villages I have lived in the Peruvian Andes I have witnessed that. Thus, I do not think these things can be compared as one is a command to fast during Ramadan (and God reminds us, "it is better for you if you fast, if you only knew&quot, while the other is an expiation for a broken oath, and this expiation (3 days of fasting) has been lessened extremely from the first three high prices to put ease on the one who is unable.

                        These are extreme cases and not the norm, while the Qur'an allows for these situations to occur, I do not think we should elevate disparate and less clear verses over clear verses.

                        We should all remember,

                        "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." 37

                        Best regards and Salaam,

                        Clash.

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                          Noon_waalqalami
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #43

                          Salamu Alaykum Noon,

                          Thanks for 589, no I did not see that you mentioned that before.

                          I will have to disagree however as it seems we are comparing apples and oranges.

                          One issue is fasting the month of Ramadan, thirty days. The reason we get one day of not fasting=feeding one poor person during Ramadan is because of verses 2183-4

                          Peace clash,

                          No that is an assumption.

                          Here it is not stated i.e. one can feed 1 poor (whole duration) or 1,000,000 poor/day ...

                          2184 days of maddtin so who be among you illness of or on journey so count from days another and on the ones can afford it ransom sustenance poor ...

                          Here exactly stated for offense breaking an oath ...

                          589 ... so reparation its provide sustenance tentet (ten group) poor from of moderate/middle what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or liberate neck (i.e. slave) so who not find so fast/abstinence trio days ...

                          Here exactly stated for this offense...

                          584 so who not find so fast/abstinence shahrayni/lunar cycles two successive two from before that touch dual so who not is able so provide sustenance sixty poor of

                          Hence no correlation.

                          SHAHR in 936 is only a 1-night FULL MOON.

                          Peace brook -- still have to "skip count" 13th full moon...

                          http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

                          fullmoon # year

                          Jan 2 7 2018
                          Jan 31 8
                          Mar 2 9
                          Mar 31 10
                          Apr 30 11
                          May 29 12
                          Jun 28 1 after solstice
                          Jul 27 2
                          Aug 26 3
                          Sep 25 4
                          Oct 24 5
                          Nov 23 6
                          Dec 22 7
                          Jan 21 8 2019
                          Feb 19 9
                          Mar 21 10
                          Apr 19 11
                          May 18 12
                          Jun 17 13 <--- skip count
                          Jul 16 1 after solstice
                          Aug 15 2
                          Sep 14 3
                          Oct 13 4
                          Nov 12 5
                          Dec 12 6
                          Jan 10 7 2020
                          Feb 9 8
                          Mar 9 9
                          Apr 8 10
                          May 7 11
                          Jun 5 12
                          Jul 5 1 after solstice

                          btw, see mother of all threads by brother DR. Ayman (hasn't been on forum for a while) ...

                          Hot/"ramadan" Answer https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

                          Peace

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                          • C Offline
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                            clashncruz
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #44

                            I am not sure I understand your response Noon. What is your argument exactly?

                            Obviously everyone can choose to follow what they want, but from the previous conversations I have had here for years including those over the past week or so I cannot say I have seen stronger evidence against fasting the month than I have seen evidence for fasting the month; thus, I will fast insha'Allah. To each their own.

                            Ramadan Mubarak/Kareem everyone, however you may be celebrating it!

                            Salaam,

                            Clash.

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                              Noon_waalqalami
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #45

                              I am not sure I understand your response Noon. What is your argument exactly?

                              Peace clash, it's simple this statement below is not true...

                              Quote clashncruz
                              "The reason we get one day of not fasting=feeding one poor person during Ramadan is because of verses 2183-4"

                              It does NOT say how many poor to feed per day and left to the individual...
                              2184... and on the ones can afford it ransom sustenance poor ...

                              If wealthy feed 1,000 each day or feed 1 poor person entire duration.

                              Cannot use 584 & 589 to justify 2184 means feed 1 poor = 1 day

                              Those are different circumstances/amounts; read/calculate carefully.

                              10 poor = 3 days fast or 3.33 poor persons/day not 1 person/day!

                              589 ... so reparation its provide sustenance tentet (10 group) poor from of moderate what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or liberate neck (i.e. slave) so who not find so fast/abstinence trio days ...

                              584 so who not find so fast/abstinence shahrayni/lunar cycles two successive two from before that touch dual so who not is able so provide sustenance sixty poor of

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                                Noon_waalqalami
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #46

                                The main question is this you awake alone on remote island or middle of desert.

                                Without knowing the date/year and no one to help -- which month is Ramadan?

                                Similar to sleepers awakening in the cave...

                                1811 so strike we of on ears theirs in the cave years number of 1812 furthermore raised we them to know/make evident which the parties two calculates they to what stays they duration of

                                These are plausible solutions...

                                1. count 12 full moons after two equinoxes when day and night are equal length; skip occasional 13th

                                2. count 12 full moons after winter solstice shortest day or summer longest day; skip occasional 13th

                                3. Ramadan always first new month after full moon of summer solstice
                                  i.e. count 12 full moons skip occasional 13th as shown with perf 558

                                new # full moon year

                                Jan 6 6 Jan 21 642
                                Feb 5 7 Feb 20
                                Mar 6 8 Mar 22
                                Apr 5 9 Apr 20
                                May 4 10 May 19
                                Jun 3 11 Jun 18
                                Jul 2 12 Jul 17
                                Aug 1 Ramadan Aug 15
                                Aug 31 2 Sep 14
                                Sep 29 3 Oct 13
                                Oct 29 4 Nov 12
                                Nov 27 5 Dec 12
                                Dec 27 6 Jan 10 643
                                Jan 25 7 Feb 9
                                Feb 24 8 Mar 11
                                Mar 25 9 Apr 10
                                Apr 24 10 May 9
                                May 23 11 Jun 7
                                Jun 21 12 Jul 7
                                Jul 21 Ramadan Aug 5
                                Aug 20 2 Sep 3
                                Sep 18 3 Oct 3
                                Oct 18 4 Nov 1
                                Nov 17 5 Dec 1
                                Dec 16 6 Dec 31
                                Jan 15 7 Jan 29 644
                                Feb 13 8 Feb 28
                                Mar 14 9 Mar 29
                                Apr 12 10 Apr 27
                                May 11 11 May 27
                                Jun 10 12 Jun 25
                                Jul 9 Ramadan Jul 25
                                Aug 8 2 Aug 23
                                Sep 6 3 Sep 21
                                Oct 6 4 Oct 21
                                Nov 5 5 Nov 19
                                Dec 5 6 Dec 19
                                Jan 3 7 Jan 17 645
                                Feb 2 8 Feb 16
                                Mar 3 9 Mar 18
                                Apr 2 10 Apr 16
                                May 1 11 May 16
                                May 30 12 Jun 15
                                Jun 29 13 skip Jul 14
                                Jul 28 Ramadan Aug 13
                                Aug 27 2 Sep 11
                                Sep 25 3 Oct 11
                                Oct 25 4 Nov 9
                                Nov 24 5 Dec 8
                                Dec 24 6 Jan 7
                                Jan 22 7 Feb 5 646
                                Feb 21 8 Mar 7
                                Mar 22 9 Apr 5
                                Apr 21 10 May 5
                                May 20 11 Jun 4
                                Jun 18 12 Jul 3
                                Jul 18 Ramadan Aug 2
                                Aug 16 2 Sep 1
                                Sep 15 3 Sep 30
                                Oct 14 4 Oct 30
                                Nov 13 5 Nov 28
                                Dec 13 6 Dec 28
                                Jan 11 7 Jan 26 647
                                Feb 10 8 Feb 24
                                Mar 12 9 Mar 26
                                Apr 10 10 Apr 24
                                May 10 11 May 24
                                Jun 8 12 Jun 22
                                Jul 7 Ramadan Jul 22

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                                • B Offline
                                  B Offline
                                  brook
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #47

                                  Peace, Noon.

                                  1. Ramadan always first new month after full moon of summer solstice

                                  Yes, this is the very truth.

                                  false crescent???..hot crescent/full moon
                                  16 June 2015???..16 June 2015/30 June
                                  05 June 2016???..05 July 2016/19 July
                                  26 May 2017???..23 June 2017/07 July
                                  16 May 2018??.?12 June 2018/27 June
                                  05 May 2019..?.?.01 July 2019/16 July

                                  -------1-----------2--------3-------4--------5--------6--------7-----------8-----------9-------10-------11------12-------13
                                  16 Jun 2015-15 Jul-13 Aug-12 Sep-11 Oct-10 Nov-09 Dec-08 Jan 2016-07 Feb-08 Mar-07 Apr-07 May-05 June
                                  05 Jul?

                                  The crescent of 05 June is full moon on 19 June
                                  which rises before the longest daytime (June 21),
                                  so it does not belong to the real shahr ramadan.

                                  The crescents, quarter moons, gibbouses, full moons?
                                  which Allah ordained (3639) on the day He created the skies and the earth (936)
                                  rise only in their fixed seasons of the solar year.

                                  Shahr ramadan/hot moon
                                  rises in hot summer,
                                  it never rises in cold winter.

                                  As I tried to explain before,
                                  man can never postpone the 13th moon IN THE SKY because his hands can never reach there.
                                  But they managed to do that ON PAPER which is falsely called islamic calendar

                                  -------1-----------2--------3-------4--------5--------6--------7-----------8-----------9-------10-------11------12-------13
                                  16 Jun 2015-15 Jul-13 Aug-12 Sep-11 Oct-10 Nov-09 Dec-08 Jan 2016-07 Feb-08 Mar-07 Apr-07 May-
                                  05 June-05 Jul?

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                                    clashncruz
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #48

                                    Salamu alaykum Noon,

                                    Ok I see your conundrum now. However, if you wake up on a deserted island with no one that knows about Ramadan, then how would you know about the Qur'an in the first place to even care one way or the other?

                                    Again, I think some of us are reading too much into this. Remember some verses are clear and some are allegorical, don't take the allegorical verses over the clear ones is my advice.

                                    As far as 2183-4 and 584 go, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on interpretations here Noon, as it seems clear to me that the expiation for not fasting one day is feeding one poor person.

                                    Best regards and Salaam,

                                    Clash.

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                                      Noon_waalqalami
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #49

                                      Ok I see your conundrum now. However, if you wake up on a deserted island with no one that knows about Ramadan, then how would you know about the Qur'an in the first place to even care one way or the other?

                                      peace clash,

                                      not my conundrum; again see cave example or let's place you along with other imams or 1,000 "scholars" whoever in a deep sleep/comma then awake you on some remote island or in middle of desert; we can give you any hadith books along with Qu'ran, etc. not tell you date/year or tell you wrong date/year ask you et al which month is ramadan? They'll all be clueless!

                                      Again, I think some of us are reading too much into this. Remember some verses are clear and some are allegorical, don't take the allegorical verses over the clear ones is my advice.

                                      As far as 2183-4 and 584 go, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on interpretations here Noon, as it seems clear to me that the expiation for not fasting one day is feeding one poor person.

                                      nothing allegorical about clear verses and again you made an assumption "feed one poor per day" is not stated.

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                                        Noon_waalqalami
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #50

                                        Yes, this is the very truth.

                                        peace brook, yes see below Ramadan (RMD) 1st new month after summer solstice full moon either hemisphere.

                                        http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

                                        summer solstice June 20-22 northern hemisphere

                                        new shr# full moon year

                                        Dec 29 6 Jan 12 2017
                                        Jan 28 7 Feb 11
                                        Feb 26 8 Mar 12
                                        Mar 28 9 Apr 11
                                        Apr 26 10 May 10
                                        May 25 11 Jun 9
                                        Jun 24 12 Jul 9
                                        Jul 23 RMD Aug 7 (start fast new crescent ~July 24/25)
                                        Aug 21 2 Sep 6
                                        Sep 20 3 Oct 5
                                        Oct 19 4 Nov 4
                                        Nov 18 5 Dec 3
                                        Dec 18 6 Jan 2 2018
                                        Jan 17 7 Jan 31
                                        Feb 15 8 Mar 2
                                        Mar 17 9 Mar 31
                                        Apr 16 10 Apr 30
                                        May 15 11 May 29
                                        Jun 13 12 Jun 28
                                        Jul 13 RMD Jul 27
                                        Aug 11 2 Aug 26
                                        Sep 9 3 Sep 25
                                        Oct 9 4 Oct 24
                                        Nov 7 5 Nov 23
                                        Dec 7 6 Dec 22
                                        Jan 6 7 Jan 21 2019
                                        Feb 4 8 Feb 19
                                        Mar 6 9 Mar 21
                                        Apr 5 10 Apr 19
                                        May 4 11 May 18
                                        Jun 3 12 Jun 17
                                        Jul 2 13 skip Jul 16
                                        Aug 1 RMD Aug 15
                                        Aug 30 2 Sep 14
                                        Sep 28 3 Oct 13
                                        Oct 28 4 Nov 12
                                        Nov 26 5 Dec 12
                                        Dec 26 6 Jan 10 2020
                                        Jan 24 7 Feb 9

                                        summer solstice Dec 20-23 southern hemisphere

                                        new shr# full moon year

                                        Dec 29 12 Jan 12 2017
                                        Jan 28 RMD Feb 11 (start fast new crescent ~Jan 29/30)
                                        Feb 26 2 Mar 12
                                        Mar 28 3 Apr 11
                                        Apr 26 4 May 10
                                        May 25 5 Jun 9
                                        Jun 24 6 Jul 9
                                        Jul 23 7 Aug 7
                                        Aug 21 8 Sep 6
                                        Sep 20 9 Oct 5
                                        Oct 19 10 Nov 4
                                        Nov 18 11 Dec 3
                                        Dec 18 12 Jan 2 2018
                                        Jan 17 RMD Jan 31
                                        Feb 15 2 Mar 2
                                        Mar 17 3 Mar 31
                                        Apr 16 4 Apr 30
                                        May 15 5 May 29
                                        Jun 13 6 Jun 28
                                        Jul 13 7 Jul 27
                                        Aug 11 8 Aug 26
                                        Sep 9 9 Sep 25
                                        Oct 9 10 Oct 24
                                        Nov 7 11 Nov 23
                                        Dec 7 12 Dec 22
                                        Jan 6 RMD Jan 21 2019
                                        Feb 4 2 Feb 19
                                        Mar 6 3 Mar 21
                                        Apr 5 4 Apr 19
                                        May 4 5 May 18
                                        Jun 3 6 Jun 17
                                        Jul 2 7 Jul 16
                                        Aug 1 8 Aug 15
                                        Aug 30 9 Sep 14
                                        Sep 28 10 Oct 13
                                        Oct 28 11 Nov 12
                                        Nov 26 12 Dec 12
                                        Dec 26 13 skip Jan 10 2020
                                        Jan 24 RMD Feb 9

                                        2185 shahru/lunar cycle ramadan (heat) the one descends in it the Qur?an guidance to the humankind and clear signs from the guidance and the criterion so who witness among you l-shahra/the lunar cycle so should abstained it and who be illness of or on journey so count from days another intends the god with you the ease and not intends with you the hardship and to complete ye of l-idata/the count and to magnify ye of the god on what guide you and that may you thanks giving

                                        936 indeed iddata/count l-shuhri/the lunar cycles near/with the god two dual ten (twelve) shahran/lunar cycle of in book the god day creation the heavens and the land therein quartet prohibit such the creed the value so not thou wrong ye of in them souls yours and fight ye of the idolaters all like/as what fighting you all and know ye of that the god with the righteous

                                        937 only the postponement increase in the disregard misguided in it the ones disregard they of allowing it Aama/year of and prohibiting it Aama/year of to adjust count what prohibit the god so allow they of what prohibit the god beautified for them evil deeds theirs and the god not guided the folk the skeptics

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                                          brook
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #51

                                          An ultimatum from Allah and his messenger
                                          to the polytheists
                                          with whom you have made a treaty (91)

                                          "Travel freely in the land FOUR MOONS." (92).

                                          The ultimatum was declared
                                          on the day when the believers entered Mecca to take their town back from the polytheists,
                                          that is, June 16 of 630?s shahr ramadan.

                                          New moon? full moon
                                          June 16???June 30

                                          http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

                                          The reason why
                                          the conqurers had to concede to a treaty of ceasefire
                                          was this

                                          It was rather a short time before Mecca?s traditional feast days-hijaj (2827),
                                          so the sellers had started to prepare their stalls and early comers were everywhere.
                                          If the ceasefire were denied,
                                          they might have been unwittingly trampled upon (4825).

                                          And on the day of the great pilgrimage
                                          an announcement to the people from Allah and his mesenger
                                          "If you repent, it is best for you?" (93).

                                          That was Dhul Hijjah,
                                          second of the FOUR MOONS mentioned in 92,
                                          and it was the time to perform the religious rites called hajj,
                                          pilgrimage.

                                          Mecca?s commercial feasts and pilgrimage
                                          were simultaneous,
                                          and they happened at the same area.

                                          However,
                                          you could not perform pilgrimage
                                          during Dhul Hijjah (2196)

                                          When the FORBIDDEN moons have passed
                                          kill the polytheists wherever you find them
                                          (95).

                                          The FOUR MOONS are over,
                                          so kill them
                                          or they will kill you.

                                          When you meet the polythesits,
                                          strike the necks until you overcome them.
                                          Then tie them fast (474).

                                          To sum up

                                          1
                                          The four forbidden months are successive,
                                          They are not
                                          3 together and 1? months apart.

                                          2
                                          In the forbiddend moons
                                          it is forbidden
                                          to shed blood, hunting wild animals included (51-2, 595).

                                          3
                                          Of the 4 forbidden moons
                                          the first is Shahr Ramadan, hot moon
                                          the scond is Dhul Hijjah, hajj moon.

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