Religous Pluralism

Anoushirvan

There is one thing that bugs me. The quran says that he will not forgive mushrik and put them in fire forever (I cant remember but thats what the ayat said.) So billions of people in eternal fire for simply not believing = rahman raheem god? -X -\ -\ -\ -X nope....
How do you guys reconcile with that?

Indeed mushriks are the hosts of the Fire. They mix (shirk in Arabic) divine truth with false teachings.

So they cannot be successfull and they stay in a state of spiritual confusion, trapped in ivory tower, which is exactly the definition of Fire according to verse 2.17

217 Their example is like the one who lights a fire, so when it illuminates what is around him, God takes away his light and leaves him in the darkness not seeing.

An illustration of this situation happens in nations where priesthood has power on the minds. Priests are those that perform this mixing, and lead astray those who listen to them.

This is what Quran says, and this is what can be observed in practice, nations where truth is mixed with falsehood are dictatorships and are the illustration of Hell.

It is interesting to notice that successfull nations are Western nations, exactly those who managed to get rid of priesthood influence on civil affairs, and let reason and scientific process have priority over religion, or ideology.
This is an application of Abraham's way of life

675 And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty.
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those who disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said "My people, I am innocent of what you have set up."

Unfortunately, it may not last, because any creation has an end, and a new one must take place.

Compare this sickening history with today, where the Western nations are funding Saudi Arabia and its backward "Islamic" ideology to brain-wash young Sunni children to become the next generation of suicide bombers.
The West is supporting terrorists to destroy Syria - then those terrorists are coming back here to the West and murdering more innocent people.

So is it the fault of West if Muslim countries are in Hell ?

People who do not assume their responsabilities and constantly reject the fault of their situation on the others will never be successfull.

unknownuser

Gen statement;

I will always be a muslim/peacemaker and be in the deen/system of islam/peacemaking. Glad that won't ever change yay

I do believe god/allah. Although I don't understand his nature, and evil in relation to god. The quran, all abrahamic faiths, they paint a picture of this god who....well...is wrathful. This, and many external and internal evidences have led me to the conclusion of possible tamperment of the quran to paint this wrathful god. Simply to push followers away. I urge you all to think. When many people leave a religion, they go to athiesm. Because they can't reconcile with god, because the god they know isn't god, but god the religion , and the Holy books painted. Satan the controller wanted this, so I'm not above thinking he tampered with the text, just as I mentioned every other holy text was tampered with to form the religions we see today.

This sub has so many open minded users, many have inspired me to that. I'm sad to see all their accounts are dormant. I certainly don't want to start any debates with anyone who isn't free minded so I'll probably stay silent until they come back.

P.S shout out to reel and the wise huruf for being so awesome ignore ignore

EdQ

I'm not making any statements.

The users here who inspired me this aren't active anynore, I wish they were.

Putting aside the external and internal evidences, they're always things in the quran that make my moral compass uneasy. I've tried to reconcile with all of them...so many times....but it leads me to one conclusion I've found evidence for.

Ofc don't reply if you don't agree, it's a matter of insight and what my soul finds rest on.

I have never read your posts and gotten the idea of a person who is afraid to make statements.

Seeing as there is not direct statement but lots of indirect ones, I am reading that you do indeed feel that the Quran is corrupted.

I got that impression from your original posts too but just wanted to be sure.

Do you feel the Bible or Torah are corrupted?

unknownuser

Who do you mean by mushrik?

The bukhari a and muslim, the fatwa clerks and ulema? Fine, they have done true evil and deserve the worst.

But some random innocent monk who was probably a polytheists because that was his way of life, no, no way does he deserve eternal fire.

huruf

We are again playing with words and as we are duly taught by those who manipulate people to disguise the words of God and disguise reality.

Do we still not understand, tht believing in God and saying that one believe in God are two different things?

Do we still not understand that someboyd for whom the word "God" and "God" itself or Himself are two completely, copletely different things?

Do we still not understnd that when somebody who does not know what God is and merely understands the vision of God transmitted by other people who say they believe in God, but really think of their own idea of God?

How can that fabricate believers and disbelievers? How can anybody who "does nto believe in God, an be a musrik that is giver partners to God?

All this are nonsense and smoke and mirrors.

Truth is in the heart, in the downright goodness and belief in Justice which do we forget that it is a name og GOd, Al 3adl?

Do we think our whims are a description or definition of God?

Noody, nobody can name anybody else believer or disbelievers.
We do have at times, when very grave decisions have to be made, take those decisions trying to get our most honest idea of the motives and truth of others, but that does not make us infallible. We just behave as we can.

In view of all this it is nonsense to attribute to God the nonsense we fabricate ourseles.

God, AL 3ADL, aS-Salaam, Al-Haqq, Al Baseer, doe snot need our petty opinions to know to the bottom the truth of avery person, not a catalogue pronnouncement, but the most inner truth and reality of every creature.

May H hay mercy on everyone of us. We will all need it, and may He be most forgiving and and most benevolent.

Salaam

EdQ

So is it the fault of West if Muslim countries are in Hell ?

People who do not assume their responsabilities and constantly reject the fault of their situation on the others will never be successfull.

So by this hateful logic, why is the West so keen to have a piece of this so called "hell" and to plant Europeans on a corner of it and call it Israel?

Do you agree it is hateful to taint all "Muslim" countries as being in hell?

unknownuser

All religious books are corrupted, IMO. As much as I see wisdom quran, some of it is DEFINATELY divine, I simply can't accept it's infallibility. It doesn't matter how many multiple meanings, a raheem god would not have put 434 in, and let countless women suffer by it. Ofcourse if that is my reasoning I wonder why god let it be corrupted.... again, I'm studying the nature of god and trying to learn.

And I've gotten the impression from you that you're not very nice ignore

Joking joking joking......

Although I wish some of the older users were here, what they said was truly thought provoking and got me to think. Sigh I should have waited for them to be online again before making this post, ah I suppose I'll just stay silent now.

unknownuser

Huruf sun sun sun sun sun

EdQ

And I've gotten the impression from you that you're not very nice ignore

Joking joking joking......

Surely, one cannot constantly make statements and say those who are not in agreement are not nice.... even if one says it is a "joke".

I have only attempted to draw your previous views on whether the Quran is faithful or corrupted.

As such, I am actually unsure why some posters on this forum claim to be Quran-only muslims (or hide what they are) when they are clearly averse to Islam and the Quran-only view.

My personal view is that it is that the Quran is faithful and a preserved message from God.

As this portal is a portal for many non-Muslims to come and discuss the Quran-only perspectives, I find it strange that there are views of some who claim to be Quran-only muslims (apparently) who say the Quran is actually corrupt.

Ie, is that really being a Quran only muslim?

imrankhawaja

peace baitachal,

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

from the lens of women , it seems unfair
from the lens of men , it seems (fair) only if he is in a situation when wife is cheating with him and poor husband suddenly get to know about it.

i wish god never put any men on this situation.. i am a man and i experience this situation in lot of cases and i feel more confident that this book is exactly from God...

only a test of fire make fine steel

this verse is not for any women , this is for the poor husband..
this verse is not about women and man its about husband and wife..
when comes to mother and father (i wonder why womens didnt think islam(peacemaking) advise kids to pay respect to their mom more than father)

the verse is a nightmare for the husbands who have kids and they found out their wife cheating .. (no women can feel it) so these verses are not for womens this verse is for a "cheating wife"..

after that husband life will become hell , he will keep thinking about kids , he will get suspicious either he is a real father of kids , he ll get suspicious about every single move of her wife...
he literally become a living dead .. and the responsible wife just ruined not only the husband life but also the life of kids..

and some after shocks.. study shows that 50% kids get physcological disorders in the cases of hus &wife seperation..

cheating wife is a clearly evil creature ...

on the other hand faithful wife is blessing of God and blessing of kids..
look its not about women its about cheating wife..

may God protect us all from the evil womens and evil mens.. group

Anoushirvan

So by this hateful logic, why is the West so keen to have a piece of this so called "hell" and to plant Europeans on a corner of it and call it Israel?

Do you agree it is hateful to taint all "Muslim" countries as being in hell?

It is not hateful, it is reality as described in Quran, and it is not helpful for people to hide truth to them.
But most people have aversion for truth.

Hell and Paradise are not afterlife. People who say that don't read Quran carefully.
Hell and Paradise are states of the nations on Earth.

3974 And they said "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the land, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!"

It's clear that Paradise is on earth and for those who are entitled to the promise of God.

Is any Muslim country today the land that was promised in this verse ? No way.
I'm sad for people who live in and who believe it's the lobby of Paradise.

EdQ

It is not hateful, it is reality as described in Quran, and it is not helpful for people to hide truth to them.
But most people have aversion for truth.

Hell and Paradise are not afterlife. People who say that don't read Quran carefully.
Hell and Paradise are states of the nations on Earth.

3974 And they said "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the land, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!"

It's clear that Paradise is on earth and for those who are entitled to the promise of God.

Is any Muslim country today the land that was promised in this verse ? No way.
I'm sad for people who live in and who believe it's the lobby of Paradise.

Oh dear, that's what happens when a hateful person tries to "interpret" the Quran.

I have reported your hateful comments to the moderators.

I guess some right-wing extremists think that where-ever their governments invade and murder innocents and then fire hellfire missiles into becomes hell.

huruf

Oh dear, that's what happens when a hateful person tries to "interpret" the Quran.

I have reported your hateful comments to the moderators.

I guess some right-wing extremists think that where-ever their governments invade and murder innocents and then fire hellfire missiles into becomes hell.

Not only that, EdQ, I like particularly this "pearl"

"Hell and Paradise are states of the nations on Earth."

Talk about collective punishment and how fair it is.

I have to admit that there are posters I just simply do not read, not because they make mad, but because they bore me. Once you have read one of their posts, you have read them all.

Salaam

Anoushirvan

Sorry to bore you guys, but collective punishment is clearly mentionned in Quran.

The Thamud, when one killed the camel.
The people of Lot, for whom Abraham tried to intercede without luck.
The people of Pharaoh, called a pervert one.

And this verse
1716 And if We wish to destroy a town, We allow its carefree to rule it, so then they commit wickedness in it, so then it deserves the sentence, so then We destroy it completely.

Only a few are saved, those people of the House.

Please read Quran with greater care.

And a side note for those who are in perplexity for my speech I'm a quranist, Quran is my book.

imrankhawaja

Please read Quran with greater care.

And a side note for those who are in perplexity for my speech I'm a quranist, Quran is my book.

RED exactly handshake

BOLD you should have to say like this i am a peacemaker(muslim with small m) who follow quran as a guidance from God..

there is not any quranist exist in quran in the system (deen)of God..

God bless you

unknownuser

Sorry inrankhwaja but the word used is "nushuz" disobedience. Not "fashiha" or adultery or cheating.

What is nushuz? A man can think his wife simply talking back to him is nushuz ill-conduct and he'll think he has the right to beat her. I'm shocked to hear this opinion from you.

Compare that to 4128, when the wife is experiencing nushuz whatsays the solution? "Peaceful reconciliation"???

Anyway this post isn't about 434 or the other darker verses, but to us to use our reasoning and fitrah.

This argument of "the quran is infallible because it says it's infalliable" is circular reasoning. There is simply no proof, even the oldest quran dates later.
Why are "Muslims" any more lucky than jew, Christians, Buddhists, athiests etc etc to have their book protected alone? God loves all his creatures. Why would he be so selective to love only few.

Again this is just my thoughts, but I will not limit my relationship with the god to what one book says, or one religion says. I want pray to him with love.

That being said, this is just my thoughts...eventhough I was happy being quranist...my soul didn't feel right. So I feel god showed me another way. Nothing is more important than my personal relationship with him.

The quran had one message, peacemaking and belief. sun sun I'm not sure how or why the cultists religion of oppression formed but oh well, negative entities and god.

I don't know why EdQ is always giving me cold responses but I don't really care. I should let what a book says or what a human says or what a religion says deter my faith in God.

Peace to all free minders sun sun

unknownuser

Again I don't think ALL OF quran is corrupt. Just the part where the merciful god is calling people donkeys and throwing people in eternal hell fire rotfl

The purpose of the quran IMO was to sent the DEEN/system of islam/peacemaking. Not to form a religion, or oppress people, or make set in stone laws that are apparently forbidden to improve, or to conquest, or to fight, or to enslave.
Too bad surahs like surah 9 and the all khizr story come in like falsehood.

Same with bible. Read some verses. BEAUTIFUL. JUST BEAUTIFUL. hail hail but then read some other verses...... & & violent, oppressive, horrible....

Same with all others. You can't say that religions have NOTHING to do with their books, because they do.

One system peacemaking sun

No religions....no divisions over books...

I'm glad I was able to read the Quran with my reading, my reading alone. I could see the underpinnings of guidance hail

Anoushirvan

BOLD you should have to say like this i am a peacemaker(muslim with small m) who follow quran as a guidance from God..

I disagree here a muslim in Quran is not a peacemaker but someone who strives to have a clear mind like Abraham.
Making peace in state of spiritual confusion is the dream of the tyrants.

Once you have clear mind, you know what a real peace is.

huruf