A humble request to ALL brothers and sisters
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Salaam Natu,
It isn't important the people agree with me, but it is important that we all agree on one thing.
Please pardon my expression, but this is double edged statement. If we all agree on one thing, then essentially people do agree with you by natural default.
Also, I must say that you are asking for the wrong thing when you say that everyone should agree on one thing. That's not possible, nor is it meant to be that way. If everyone here establish a set of criteria for all to believe in, this is going right back into the direction of organized religion and sectarianism.
Peace be with you,
Damon. -
Peace brother Damon. I think I'm being misunderstood here. Its like this, there is a distinction between physical salata and non-physical salat, and sectarians mock us all becuase some of us do things one way, and other do things other ways, so with that theuy get the excuse to disregard God alone. All I'm saying is that we get together and debate to come to one conclusion - this has nothing to do with what I see as the right way - all I'm saying is that we get into some kind of structured debate and work things out, and becuyase the quran is clear we should be able to come to one unified conclusion, instead of having some people prostrating to jerusalem, some to mecca and some not at all. I am not trying to promote my own standing, rather, its best if we all come together and work things out systematically, so that we don't end up with some considering others as idolaters etc. I hope it doesn't seem as though I'm trying to promote my own veiws.
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God bless you Natu,
I fully support your endevour. Without unity on the most essential issues we can forget about being taken seriously and becoming a serious force for God's good that can be reckoned with..there is way too much disunity on the fundamentals, and some ppl who may be interested in endless debate would rather keep it that way. Let us all unite as God commands and follow his simple prescription
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
People need to remember this more often and the other verses where God commands us to stay united like the bricks of one wall.
Unity can be acheived with hard work and persistence...it is the devil's false ideas that inform us there is no truth, its all subjective...this is one of the most destructive philosophies ever known, the philosophy of "post-modernism"
While there is truth, we must accept there are different shades of it. Only by a rigorous and OPEN MINDED analysis of the verses can we reach a conclusion... WOULD IT MAKE ANY SENSE FOR GOD TO SEND US A SCRIPTURE OF GUIDANCE IF IT WERE NOT MEANT FOR US TO DERIVE A CORRECT UNDERSTANDING AND UNITE BEHIND IT?????
I have tried to address some of the issues regarding unity, in a long post of mine that got buried under the endless raging debates on this forum.. I have outlined a blue print based on Quran on short term and long term objectives that I think we must follow and have asked for people's feedback. I encourage everyone to revive that discussion, which in many ways relates to your aims as well...on how we can proceed to constructively tackle the controvertial issues that divide us. Please check it out here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3267
If we all learn to be honest with ourselves and strive hard to reach the truth sincerely then God will show it to us as this is a divine guarantee
None can grasp it (the Quran) except the sincere.
Therefore any failure to reach a common consensus, is due to ignorance or a failing on our part?.Many reasons for this include following our own egos, prejudices, or prejudging certain issues all cloud our minds. The truth is out there for us to grab. And only concern for our faith and sincere devotion will truly free our minds and lead us to God?s guidance.
For example, for those who still say they follow Quran Alone according to 638, 114, 115 and many other verses, and YET STILL choose to pray 5 times a day as if it were a divine decree, why don?t you show us where you reach your conclusions from? This is the whole point of your project on debating?by debating we introduce new verses we were not aware of that will nullify preconceived notions in our minds, and by following the best argument we will draw nearer and nearer to the truth as 3918 commands. We cannot just sit by and accept the status quo which is currently interpreting God?s religion into oblivion!!
Peace,
Omar
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Peace Natu,
On the one hand, I understand your desire for a unified front. I've been there myself. But on the other hand, what I've grown to believe from this forum and others, as well as from my humble research, is that there is unity in diversity.
The Qur'an says that it is clear and concise- perfectly explained in full detail. At the same time, it says that we are all different, so that we may learn from each other.
To me, the message is that the book is for individuals as a whole. Does that make sense?
Let me use the example of Iblis
I believe Iblis is a very human consequence of freewill. In other words, iblis is the effect caused by straying away from God. It is a state of consciousness, not a being whose job it is to tempt us.But there are plenty here who disagree with me and they bring up strong arguments to support their belief. And that is fine, because the result is the same. Iblis as a being or as a state of consciousness has the same effect on the psyche it is against the flow of God.
In short, the beauty of free-minds is that there is no set doctrine. Our goal is to learn, and keep learning, and be completely tolerant of all beliefs under the flag of One God.
so that we don't end up with some considering others as idolaters etc.
Let people say what they want to say. The free-minded end up gravitating here because they're sick of being told what to believe. Let each person come to his/her own conlusions, and we can discuss each topic to learn from each other respectfully. The goal is spiritual development, in perfect harmony, not in our forms, but in our intentions.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
I se what you mean Tay, its just that, I think if we came to a fixed conclusion, like we all did with rejecting ALL hadith books instead of just a few, if we united on this topic (Which is a fundamental, not something like an understanding of God which can easily be left to individual interpretation), then it will be a lot easier for people to come to God alone, they won't run away on just the clause that the quran is unclear on the topic of salat, so we need to go to hadith boos. So this is to serve several purposes.
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Come to a unified understanding of salat, whether that is physical or non-physical, whoever decides to change view, me or anyone else (I am still learning though - I'm a non-arab).
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Be confident enough on that decision so that it can be said on the main page of free-minds to avoid too much confusion for new brothers/sisters accepting God alone, arab or non-arab.
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Remove the possibilty for sectarians to give the excuse that Quran doesn't give details of salat, so we needhadith books, and thus to prevent them from pulling more brothers and sisters into their grasp of authority.
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Peace be with you Natu,
Its like this, there is a distinction between physical salata and non-physical salat, and sectarians mock us all becuase some of us do things one way, and other do things other ways, so with that theuy get the excuse to disregard God alone.
You may possibly be under the impression that I don't know what you're going through, but believe me, I do. I was exactly where you are half a year ago.
The sectarrians will always find reasons to mock us and they will disgregard the GOD Alone message not because of our disunity on the salat issue, but because they do not have the heart of monotheism. I have come to learn very recently that people can offer any and all kinds of reasons to force themselves into believing what they WANT to believe. If they couldn't mock us on the salat issue, they will just find something else to mock us about and use THAT as a different excuse to ignore the GOD Alone message.
All I'm saying is that we get together and debate to come to one conclusion
I'm afraid that this simply isn't possible. We all have arrived here through different paths. It is because of these different paths that we have different outlooks in life...including how we see certain issues that we discuss here. You should keep in mind that the sectarians have absolutely no room to mock us. They are not 100% unified themselves. There are many different madhaabs that dictate whether or not one folds his hand or hold them at his sides among other things.
becuyase the quran is clear we should be able to come to one unified conclusion
Yes you are correct, the Quran is clear. One thing that is definately clear that I always stick to is what GOD says in 37....that HE ALONE knows the True Meaning of many things we read in The Quran. I have my way of seeing salat and there are probably 10 different views than my own from others here....and I am perfectly fine with that knowing that only GOD knows best.
instead of having some people prostrating to jerusalem, some to mecca and some not at all.
Once again, I am here to remind you that we are going to have this no matter what. I am saying this to you because as I said earlier I was exactly where you are about half a year ago. I am trying my utmost to save you the heartache and disappointment.
I am not trying to promote my own standing, rather, its best if we all come together and work things out systematically, so that we don't end up with some considering others as idolaters etc.
There are many different views of salat by people here that are different than my own. I do not consider these people as idolaters just because our views on salat (among other things) are different from each other.
I hope it doesn't seem as though I'm trying to promote my own veiws.
No, I don't see you as trying to promote your own views. I see you as someone who truly wants unity and brotherhood. It wasn't very long ago that I was there myself. But I had to come to realize that it is best that I don't stress myself over interpretations of certain issues but instead concentrate on what I do know for sure, such as feeding the poor, promoting charity, showing respect and kindness to my parents and sharing this message with others when the proper opportunity arises.
Remove the possibilty for sectarians to give the excuse that Quran doesn't give details of salat, so we needhadith books, and thus to prevent them from pulling more brothers and sisters into their grasp of authority.
The sectarians will find plenty of reasons to go to the hadith books no matter what. And the only ones who will get pulled into their graps are those who, like them, wish to find reasons to follow something other than GOD Alone.
I truly believe you should give special regard to what Tay is saying here. He and Zenje are the ones responsible for putting the final touches on my present views and understanding concerning this issue.
Peace be with you,
Damon. -
Salaam Damon, Natu n all...
Well said brother Damon... you said most of what I thought about, but didn't know quite how to put it. D
Bro Natu, if it's other people (sectarian or not) you're worried about, then you're wasting some serious energy. Think about how you got where you are. Was it intellect? Was it hard evidence? Was it pure reasoning? While those maybe a small part of the picture... remember this, God guides. We seem to discount that fact a lot, even as people who claim to follow God alone. But that's a whole nother story. )
If it's unity you want, through a community banded together, perhaps there's 2 or even more of us who share many ideals... so? Do the number of people affect the strength? Abraham was called a 'nation' all by himself. idea Think about that. The members here do not make decisions for others just because they came to an agreement about a topic or word. That's pretty much how the hadith you and I reject came into being. People decided what was real (sahih) and what wasn't. roll
Hope that made some sense. Peace!
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Peace Natu,
You say you know what I mean, but your post suggests otherwise. In short, my point is, the very nature of what this forum has manifested itself into goes against the notion of an agreed position on a topic. If we unanimously agree on a specific topic, we are no longer "free-minds.org", we are "the people who define salat as ______ ". People come here because there is no agenda being pushed. There is no definition that is the basis for which thoughts should be plugged into.
You stated,
Be confident enough on that decision so that it can be said on the main page of free-minds to avoid too much confusion for new brothers/sisters accepting God alone, arab or non-arab.
Following this suggestion would consequently categorize all members of this forum into a new sect.
Please understand, I can see and appreciate your passion in this regard. I can see that you want to make a difference, and you want to open eyes, the same way you feel your eyes have been opened.
But as Damon and Zenje said, (and I'm paraphrasing) you are here not because of the free-minds.org forum, but because you have a free mind. God-Alone is the only flag we need to wave.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Damon,
You stated
He and Zenje are the ones responsible for putting the final touches on my present views and understanding concerning this issue.
I had no idea, and I am truly humbled. You've definitely helped me as well, and I'm not saying that just to return the compliment. You've been exemplary in your sincerity and energy, and your thoughts always seem to spark some new thoughts of my own.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Hello Natu,
No, I did not believe that you were promoting your ideas when I put my original question to you. I felt that you needed a consensus so that you could be more confident in your beliefs. But I see your need for consensus is to rebut sectarian mocking and also not calling others Idolaters.
Do you know why sectarians mock you?
When you think for yourself Natu, sectarians lose the power over you and they hate that. They can't deal with it. That is why the Ulemas of the Islamic Empire hated human reason so much that they officially closed the doors of "Ithijihad" (independent reasoning) around 12th Century and by closing the doors of independent reasoning they doomed the Islamic enterprise to an inevitable death.When others deny you to think for yourself Natu, they mock your God-given reasoning faculty. They undermine your human dignity. If we are to come a consensus on anything on this forum, it will undermine the ethos of FREE-MINDS and I would not want that. We are here to debate and discuss so that we can refine our own understanding of Scripture, God and Religion and not enforce any views.
But we can discuss and debate the physical and non-physical nature of salat and this is a good thing to do but to reach consensus? No. I think we should not. We should decide for ourselves if we need to pray 3 or 5 times a day or not at all.
You have recently changed your mind about code 19 - did someone force you? No. You came to your own conclusion by reading divergent views from many forum members. And it is a good conclusion. But the important think is that you came to the conclusion yourself and not because FREE-MINDS had an official view on this topic.
As for idolatry ? why call anyone idolater? Why label anyone with idolatry? I do not label anyone like this. I think its about time we let go of labels and see humanity in a more compassionate sense?
I believe you are sincere Natu and your aim is very noble and that you want others to benefit like the way you have benefited. And that is a good thing. But we can help others by encouraging them to think for themselves, by empowering individuals to think for themselves?
Take care.
Regards,
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Peace be with you Tay,
He and Zenje are the ones responsible for putting the final touches on my present views and understanding concerning this issue.
I had no idea, and I am truly humbled. You've definitely helped me as well, and I'm not saying that just to return the compliment. You've been exemplary in your sincerity and energy, and your thoughts always seem to spark some new thoughts of my own.
May peace be upon you,
TayYes, In the following thread, http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39112&highlight=#39112 , alot of people had given really positive and intelligent feedback. But the feedback that I received from You and Zenje is what had affected me the most. And it is not just based on that one thread alone. Plenty posts that I have read by you and Zenje have affected my stance on alot of issues tremendously.
Dear Brother Natu, I hope that you are able to find the time to read that thread as well since it is very similar to what we are discussing in this thread.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I definitely understand the perspective of Tay and Damon (beautifully said guys, by the way) . However, the Qur'an seems to allude to a community of some sort. Whether this is 2 persons, or 2 billion, there seems to be some sort of organization amongst believers when it comes to God's system.
Someone's personal stage of Islam is just that personal. In my opinion, it has little to do with group consensus and everything to do with a man's relationship with the God, intent, and the Universe. No one can be our intercessors when it comes to eternity. Perhaps Salat is outside the realm of consensus since it is dealing with an extremely personal aspect of Islam (unlike social/community mandates such as taking care of orphans or fulfilling one's oaths).
In reality, we are already a "sect"...or, more specifically, we are result of sectarianism. Since we are all trying to follow the Qur'an Alone, and are striving for the monotheistic system of Abraham, we are "different" from most other sects of supposedly monotheistic systems based on the Books.
Just because we come to some sort of group/majority rules consensus on a central subject does not mean that the doors to ijtihad have to be closed on free-minds.org. It also does not mean that people cannot and should not follow their intuition and own judgment.
As a newbie here, I am going to take the time to confess some concerns. I would personally like to see a thorough discussion from different perspectives concerning Salat; particularly on a translational/theoretical level. Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources. And yes, it was my intelligence, senses, and intuition that got me to this point in the first place, but I am humble enough to know when my own knowledge and ignorance hinders me from utilizing my intelligence, senses, and intuition to even begin to come to a conclusion that I have peace with. When I had gotten to this point in the past, I simply sought some initial, factual information, and allowed my God given senses to run wild. With so many different discussions and interpretations, I can?t really do this with Salat. It would be great if we could agree on SOME aspects of salat as some sort of foundation.... Do you guys think that this is possible at all?
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Peace be with you SalikahDC,
the Qur'an seems to allude to a community of some sort.
The Quran alludes to a community of people who live their lives righteously and serving GOD Alone. I cannot see where The Quran alludes to a robotic community where everyone has to see eye-to-eye on every aspect of life.
Whether this is 2 persons, or 2 billion, there seems to be some sort of organization amongst believers when it comes to God's system.
This organization is for the proper governing of society not so that everyone has to have individual relationships with GOD based on the next man's immediate interpretation and/or views.
Someone's personal stage of Islam is just that personal
Exactly! That's the very point that I was trying to make.
Perhaps Salat is outside the realm of consensus since it is dealing with an extremely personal aspect of Islam
Yes, perhaps.
In reality, we are already a "sect"...or, more specifically, we are result of sectarianism. Since we are all trying to follow the Qur'an Alone, and are striving for the monotheistic system of Abraham, we are "different" from most other sects of supposedly monotheistic systems based on the Books.
No we are not a sect. We do not have the structure and ORGANIZATION needed to make us a sect. That is where they get the term ORGANIZED religion. Because it is organized to where there is a specific set of rules and mandates that it's adherents MUST follow and their is a Religious Leader who oversees the community and makes sure that the adherents are following these rules and thus worthy to be called brother or sister of the faith.
We do not have that. We are not structured or organized in such a fashion and neither does The Quran call for us to be so. Also keep in mind that those who do not follow this way will come up with some type of group name to label us with regardless. It is their way of cooking up an identity for us and for reference purposes.
Just because we come to some sort of group/majority rules consensus on a central subject does not mean that the doors to ijtihad have to be closed on free-minds.org. It also does not mean that people cannot and should not follow their intuition and own judgment.
The only consesus that The Quran mandates is what we all know concerning the Mukhamat signs of The Quran.....feeding the poor and hungry, standing up against oppression, showing kindness to orphans and our parents, speaking out against genocide and unnecessary war, sharing the GOD Alone message with others, volunteering for community service, etc. These are the deeds that The Quran Speaks of that will be taken into consideration in the hereafter on Judgement Day. This is the TRUE zakaa'. However, we cannot come to a concrete consesus concerning Salat and other Mutashabihaat concepts in The Quran.
I would personally like to see a thorough discussion from different perspectives concerning Salat;
I have been a free-minds member for two years and in the two years that I've been here, there have been on-going salat discussions and still no universal consesus. A strong community is made of those who are able and willing to agree to dis-agree and not let it affect their relationship with each other. That's my personal vision of a strong community.
Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources. And yes, it was my intelligence, senses, and intuition that got me to this point in the first place, but I am humble enough to know when my own knowledge and ignorance hinders me from utilizing my intelligence, senses, and intuition to even begin to come to a conclusion that I have peace with. When I had gotten to this point in the past, I simply sought some initial, factual information, and allowed my God given senses to run wild. With so many different discussions and interpretations, I cant really do this with Salat. It would be great if we could agree on SOME aspects of salat as some sort of foundation.... Do you guys think that this is possible at all?
The only thing that I can do to answer this is to refer you to The Quran 20114 and 551-2. These two passages along with 37 are what keep my heart content concerning this and other issues. I hope I was of some help to you.
Salaam.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources.
Do not be disheartened SalikahDC. Think of these divergent views as individuals struggling to make sense of these things in their life. And these kind of struggle to understand can only lead to a better understanding of the Divine.
I think God's system is "unity" in Diversity. Is this a contradiction? I don't think so. Think of the wonderous Diversity of life on Earth. But scientists tell us that all life on earth, from bacterium to elephants, evolved from a common ancestor. That means we are related to each, and every other living thing, and also with every living thing that ever lived on this planet. A wonderous Diversity but there is also an underlying unity...I think the challenge is to learn to live and appreciate the divergent views of each individual that comes to this forum...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you all,
Natu, you are right on track, there needs to be unification of the INSTRUCTIONS from the God. If it were up to peoples desires, then what reason do we read and study this reading(quran)? We could just all follow whatever we each make up. NO, the God has given us instruction, guidance to the right path. Just like everyone agrees that "zakaat" is purification, so SHOULD we agree on "salaat". I think most are worn out thinking about it or debating it, but we must have patience and perserverance.
The problem is that most of the debates are subjective and most do not bring it to the objective level. Its like arguing wether it is hot or cold outside , which can go on all day, instead of agreeing on the objective statement that it is 55 degrees outside.
The fact that we are all debating(hajja), which is also an instruction from the God, PROVES that we all have the urge to be united with the same system. This is not robotic as Brother Damon stated, this is logical, just as we all eat food, we all brush our teeth, we all take showers/baths, etc.
Debating(hajja) is how we get to the truth
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The Quran alludes to a community of people who live their lives righteously and serving GOD Alone. I cannot see where The Quran alludes to a robotic community where everyone has to see eye-to-eye on every aspect of life.
I agree that the Qur'an does not allude to a robotic, over regulated community and didn't mean to insinuate otherwise. Actually, from my current understanding, differences in thought and opinion are not only inevitable, but welcomed.
"No we are not a sect. We do not have the structure and ORGANIZATION needed to make us a sect.
That is where they get the term ORGANIZED religion. Because it is organized to where there is a specific set of rules and mandates that it's adherents MUST follow and their is a Religious Leader who oversees the community and makes sure that the adherents are following these rules and thus worthy to be called brother or sister of the faith
.Are you talking about a "sect" or a "cult"?
Sect (noun)
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.Cult (noun)
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.the followers of such a religion or sect.I am definitely not big on labeling, but I wanted to give you the basis of my statement as to clarify my point. If we disagree, we disagree and its really not that big of a deal if we do. The bottom line is that many of us probably came to strive for God Alone from various paths and for various reasons and most of us here on free-minds.org seem to use the Qur'an as a guidance in our deen. Since we are different from others who use the Qur'an as a source of guidance, we are, technically, a sect. However, I will personally challenge this assertion because I have been inspired to revert BACK to a system and way of life and thought before widely popular sects and cults entered the picture (which is why I said that people who are inspired to think like us could be difined as a reaction to sectarianism rather than a simple sect...but most sects are reactionary....Its a circular arguement, I suppose).
From your statements, I am assuming that you think we do not have organization. Isn't this a form of organization?
The only consesus that The Quran mandates is what we all know concerning the Mukhamat signs of The Quran.....feeding the poor and hungry, standing up against oppression, showing kindness to orphans and our parents, speaking out against genocide and unnecessary war, sharing the GOD Alone message with others, volunteering for community service, etc. These are the deeds that The Quran Speaks of that will be taken into consideration in the hereafter on Judgement Day. This is the TRUE zakaa'.
I agree with you on the above. To me, the aforementioned is the universal foundation of our diversity (if this makes sense). The above "deeds" are applicable cross culture, cross gender, cross class.
The only thing that I can do to answer this is to refer you to The Quran 20114 and 551-2. These two passages along with 37 are what keep my heart content concerning this and other issues. I hope I was of some help to you
.I actually have 551-2 and 37 marked in my Qur'an as the "read if you are frustrated" verses. I read them last night and gained peace. Thanks for the referral.
ONE
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Peace everybody,
Dear Kyle,
The fact that we are all debating(hajja), which is also an instruction from the God, PROVES that we all have the urge to be united with the same system. This is not robotic as Brother Damon stated, this is logical, just as we all eat food, we all brush our teeth, we all take showers/baths, etc.Say "Let each work ACCORDING TO HIS OWN. You Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."
(Quran, 1784)As you said, we all eat food, we all brush our teeth and we all take showers and baths. What I am pointing out is that it is both unnecessary and illogical that we all brush our teeth in the same motion as each other, using the same hand as each other and brushing in a specific order as each other. It is not necessary or logical to eat the same way, using the same hand, chewing our food a certain way or holding our untensils in the same hand. I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Just do what has to be done and follow what has to be followed, but let's not continue to delude ourselves into thinking that we have to do things exactly alike nor do we have to follow the same exact views alike either.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Bro, perhaps you should go and reread my post. I did not in any shape or form insinuate that we should be clones when it comes to deen-particularly regarding our personal stage of Islam. I said the exact opposite.
ONE
