A humble request to ALL brothers and sisters
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Salaam Damon, Natu n all...
Well said brother Damon... you said most of what I thought about, but didn't know quite how to put it. D
Bro Natu, if it's other people (sectarian or not) you're worried about, then you're wasting some serious energy. Think about how you got where you are. Was it intellect? Was it hard evidence? Was it pure reasoning? While those maybe a small part of the picture... remember this, God guides. We seem to discount that fact a lot, even as people who claim to follow God alone. But that's a whole nother story. )
If it's unity you want, through a community banded together, perhaps there's 2 or even more of us who share many ideals... so? Do the number of people affect the strength? Abraham was called a 'nation' all by himself. idea Think about that. The members here do not make decisions for others just because they came to an agreement about a topic or word. That's pretty much how the hadith you and I reject came into being. People decided what was real (sahih) and what wasn't. roll
Hope that made some sense. Peace!
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Peace Natu,
You say you know what I mean, but your post suggests otherwise. In short, my point is, the very nature of what this forum has manifested itself into goes against the notion of an agreed position on a topic. If we unanimously agree on a specific topic, we are no longer "free-minds.org", we are "the people who define salat as ______ ". People come here because there is no agenda being pushed. There is no definition that is the basis for which thoughts should be plugged into.
You stated,
Be confident enough on that decision so that it can be said on the main page of free-minds to avoid too much confusion for new brothers/sisters accepting God alone, arab or non-arab.
Following this suggestion would consequently categorize all members of this forum into a new sect.
Please understand, I can see and appreciate your passion in this regard. I can see that you want to make a difference, and you want to open eyes, the same way you feel your eyes have been opened.
But as Damon and Zenje said, (and I'm paraphrasing) you are here not because of the free-minds.org forum, but because you have a free mind. God-Alone is the only flag we need to wave.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Damon,
You stated
He and Zenje are the ones responsible for putting the final touches on my present views and understanding concerning this issue.
I had no idea, and I am truly humbled. You've definitely helped me as well, and I'm not saying that just to return the compliment. You've been exemplary in your sincerity and energy, and your thoughts always seem to spark some new thoughts of my own.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Hello Natu,
No, I did not believe that you were promoting your ideas when I put my original question to you. I felt that you needed a consensus so that you could be more confident in your beliefs. But I see your need for consensus is to rebut sectarian mocking and also not calling others Idolaters.
Do you know why sectarians mock you?
When you think for yourself Natu, sectarians lose the power over you and they hate that. They can't deal with it. That is why the Ulemas of the Islamic Empire hated human reason so much that they officially closed the doors of "Ithijihad" (independent reasoning) around 12th Century and by closing the doors of independent reasoning they doomed the Islamic enterprise to an inevitable death.When others deny you to think for yourself Natu, they mock your God-given reasoning faculty. They undermine your human dignity. If we are to come a consensus on anything on this forum, it will undermine the ethos of FREE-MINDS and I would not want that. We are here to debate and discuss so that we can refine our own understanding of Scripture, God and Religion and not enforce any views.
But we can discuss and debate the physical and non-physical nature of salat and this is a good thing to do but to reach consensus? No. I think we should not. We should decide for ourselves if we need to pray 3 or 5 times a day or not at all.
You have recently changed your mind about code 19 - did someone force you? No. You came to your own conclusion by reading divergent views from many forum members. And it is a good conclusion. But the important think is that you came to the conclusion yourself and not because FREE-MINDS had an official view on this topic.
As for idolatry ? why call anyone idolater? Why label anyone with idolatry? I do not label anyone like this. I think its about time we let go of labels and see humanity in a more compassionate sense?
I believe you are sincere Natu and your aim is very noble and that you want others to benefit like the way you have benefited. And that is a good thing. But we can help others by encouraging them to think for themselves, by empowering individuals to think for themselves?
Take care.
Regards,
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Peace be with you Tay,
He and Zenje are the ones responsible for putting the final touches on my present views and understanding concerning this issue.
I had no idea, and I am truly humbled. You've definitely helped me as well, and I'm not saying that just to return the compliment. You've been exemplary in your sincerity and energy, and your thoughts always seem to spark some new thoughts of my own.
May peace be upon you,
TayYes, In the following thread, http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39112&highlight=#39112 , alot of people had given really positive and intelligent feedback. But the feedback that I received from You and Zenje is what had affected me the most. And it is not just based on that one thread alone. Plenty posts that I have read by you and Zenje have affected my stance on alot of issues tremendously.
Dear Brother Natu, I hope that you are able to find the time to read that thread as well since it is very similar to what we are discussing in this thread.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I definitely understand the perspective of Tay and Damon (beautifully said guys, by the way) . However, the Qur'an seems to allude to a community of some sort. Whether this is 2 persons, or 2 billion, there seems to be some sort of organization amongst believers when it comes to God's system.
Someone's personal stage of Islam is just that personal. In my opinion, it has little to do with group consensus and everything to do with a man's relationship with the God, intent, and the Universe. No one can be our intercessors when it comes to eternity. Perhaps Salat is outside the realm of consensus since it is dealing with an extremely personal aspect of Islam (unlike social/community mandates such as taking care of orphans or fulfilling one's oaths).
In reality, we are already a "sect"...or, more specifically, we are result of sectarianism. Since we are all trying to follow the Qur'an Alone, and are striving for the monotheistic system of Abraham, we are "different" from most other sects of supposedly monotheistic systems based on the Books.
Just because we come to some sort of group/majority rules consensus on a central subject does not mean that the doors to ijtihad have to be closed on free-minds.org. It also does not mean that people cannot and should not follow their intuition and own judgment.
As a newbie here, I am going to take the time to confess some concerns. I would personally like to see a thorough discussion from different perspectives concerning Salat; particularly on a translational/theoretical level. Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources. And yes, it was my intelligence, senses, and intuition that got me to this point in the first place, but I am humble enough to know when my own knowledge and ignorance hinders me from utilizing my intelligence, senses, and intuition to even begin to come to a conclusion that I have peace with. When I had gotten to this point in the past, I simply sought some initial, factual information, and allowed my God given senses to run wild. With so many different discussions and interpretations, I can?t really do this with Salat. It would be great if we could agree on SOME aspects of salat as some sort of foundation.... Do you guys think that this is possible at all?
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Peace be with you SalikahDC,
the Qur'an seems to allude to a community of some sort.
The Quran alludes to a community of people who live their lives righteously and serving GOD Alone. I cannot see where The Quran alludes to a robotic community where everyone has to see eye-to-eye on every aspect of life.
Whether this is 2 persons, or 2 billion, there seems to be some sort of organization amongst believers when it comes to God's system.
This organization is for the proper governing of society not so that everyone has to have individual relationships with GOD based on the next man's immediate interpretation and/or views.
Someone's personal stage of Islam is just that personal
Exactly! That's the very point that I was trying to make.
Perhaps Salat is outside the realm of consensus since it is dealing with an extremely personal aspect of Islam
Yes, perhaps.
In reality, we are already a "sect"...or, more specifically, we are result of sectarianism. Since we are all trying to follow the Qur'an Alone, and are striving for the monotheistic system of Abraham, we are "different" from most other sects of supposedly monotheistic systems based on the Books.
No we are not a sect. We do not have the structure and ORGANIZATION needed to make us a sect. That is where they get the term ORGANIZED religion. Because it is organized to where there is a specific set of rules and mandates that it's adherents MUST follow and their is a Religious Leader who oversees the community and makes sure that the adherents are following these rules and thus worthy to be called brother or sister of the faith.
We do not have that. We are not structured or organized in such a fashion and neither does The Quran call for us to be so. Also keep in mind that those who do not follow this way will come up with some type of group name to label us with regardless. It is their way of cooking up an identity for us and for reference purposes.
Just because we come to some sort of group/majority rules consensus on a central subject does not mean that the doors to ijtihad have to be closed on free-minds.org. It also does not mean that people cannot and should not follow their intuition and own judgment.
The only consesus that The Quran mandates is what we all know concerning the Mukhamat signs of The Quran.....feeding the poor and hungry, standing up against oppression, showing kindness to orphans and our parents, speaking out against genocide and unnecessary war, sharing the GOD Alone message with others, volunteering for community service, etc. These are the deeds that The Quran Speaks of that will be taken into consideration in the hereafter on Judgement Day. This is the TRUE zakaa'. However, we cannot come to a concrete consesus concerning Salat and other Mutashabihaat concepts in The Quran.
I would personally like to see a thorough discussion from different perspectives concerning Salat;
I have been a free-minds member for two years and in the two years that I've been here, there have been on-going salat discussions and still no universal consesus. A strong community is made of those who are able and willing to agree to dis-agree and not let it affect their relationship with each other. That's my personal vision of a strong community.
Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources. And yes, it was my intelligence, senses, and intuition that got me to this point in the first place, but I am humble enough to know when my own knowledge and ignorance hinders me from utilizing my intelligence, senses, and intuition to even begin to come to a conclusion that I have peace with. When I had gotten to this point in the past, I simply sought some initial, factual information, and allowed my God given senses to run wild. With so many different discussions and interpretations, I cant really do this with Salat. It would be great if we could agree on SOME aspects of salat as some sort of foundation.... Do you guys think that this is possible at all?
The only thing that I can do to answer this is to refer you to The Quran 20114 and 551-2. These two passages along with 37 are what keep my heart content concerning this and other issues. I hope I was of some help to you.
Salaam.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Salat seems to be extremely important to a muslim's daily life (as it was to prophets delivering the message) and I am quite disheartened and overwhelmed that I hear 50 different things from 10 different sources.
Do not be disheartened SalikahDC. Think of these divergent views as individuals struggling to make sense of these things in their life. And these kind of struggle to understand can only lead to a better understanding of the Divine.
I think God's system is "unity" in Diversity. Is this a contradiction? I don't think so. Think of the wonderous Diversity of life on Earth. But scientists tell us that all life on earth, from bacterium to elephants, evolved from a common ancestor. That means we are related to each, and every other living thing, and also with every living thing that ever lived on this planet. A wonderous Diversity but there is also an underlying unity...I think the challenge is to learn to live and appreciate the divergent views of each individual that comes to this forum...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you all,
Natu, you are right on track, there needs to be unification of the INSTRUCTIONS from the God. If it were up to peoples desires, then what reason do we read and study this reading(quran)? We could just all follow whatever we each make up. NO, the God has given us instruction, guidance to the right path. Just like everyone agrees that "zakaat" is purification, so SHOULD we agree on "salaat". I think most are worn out thinking about it or debating it, but we must have patience and perserverance.
The problem is that most of the debates are subjective and most do not bring it to the objective level. Its like arguing wether it is hot or cold outside , which can go on all day, instead of agreeing on the objective statement that it is 55 degrees outside.
The fact that we are all debating(hajja), which is also an instruction from the God, PROVES that we all have the urge to be united with the same system. This is not robotic as Brother Damon stated, this is logical, just as we all eat food, we all brush our teeth, we all take showers/baths, etc.
Debating(hajja) is how we get to the truth
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The Quran alludes to a community of people who live their lives righteously and serving GOD Alone. I cannot see where The Quran alludes to a robotic community where everyone has to see eye-to-eye on every aspect of life.
I agree that the Qur'an does not allude to a robotic, over regulated community and didn't mean to insinuate otherwise. Actually, from my current understanding, differences in thought and opinion are not only inevitable, but welcomed.
"No we are not a sect. We do not have the structure and ORGANIZATION needed to make us a sect.
That is where they get the term ORGANIZED religion. Because it is organized to where there is a specific set of rules and mandates that it's adherents MUST follow and their is a Religious Leader who oversees the community and makes sure that the adherents are following these rules and thus worthy to be called brother or sister of the faith
.Are you talking about a "sect" or a "cult"?
Sect (noun)
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.Cult (noun)
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.the followers of such a religion or sect.I am definitely not big on labeling, but I wanted to give you the basis of my statement as to clarify my point. If we disagree, we disagree and its really not that big of a deal if we do. The bottom line is that many of us probably came to strive for God Alone from various paths and for various reasons and most of us here on free-minds.org seem to use the Qur'an as a guidance in our deen. Since we are different from others who use the Qur'an as a source of guidance, we are, technically, a sect. However, I will personally challenge this assertion because I have been inspired to revert BACK to a system and way of life and thought before widely popular sects and cults entered the picture (which is why I said that people who are inspired to think like us could be difined as a reaction to sectarianism rather than a simple sect...but most sects are reactionary....Its a circular arguement, I suppose).
From your statements, I am assuming that you think we do not have organization. Isn't this a form of organization?
The only consesus that The Quran mandates is what we all know concerning the Mukhamat signs of The Quran.....feeding the poor and hungry, standing up against oppression, showing kindness to orphans and our parents, speaking out against genocide and unnecessary war, sharing the GOD Alone message with others, volunteering for community service, etc. These are the deeds that The Quran Speaks of that will be taken into consideration in the hereafter on Judgement Day. This is the TRUE zakaa'.
I agree with you on the above. To me, the aforementioned is the universal foundation of our diversity (if this makes sense). The above "deeds" are applicable cross culture, cross gender, cross class.
The only thing that I can do to answer this is to refer you to The Quran 20114 and 551-2. These two passages along with 37 are what keep my heart content concerning this and other issues. I hope I was of some help to you
.I actually have 551-2 and 37 marked in my Qur'an as the "read if you are frustrated" verses. I read them last night and gained peace. Thanks for the referral.
ONE
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Peace everybody,
Dear Kyle,
The fact that we are all debating(hajja), which is also an instruction from the God, PROVES that we all have the urge to be united with the same system. This is not robotic as Brother Damon stated, this is logical, just as we all eat food, we all brush our teeth, we all take showers/baths, etc.Say "Let each work ACCORDING TO HIS OWN. You Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."
(Quran, 1784)As you said, we all eat food, we all brush our teeth and we all take showers and baths. What I am pointing out is that it is both unnecessary and illogical that we all brush our teeth in the same motion as each other, using the same hand as each other and brushing in a specific order as each other. It is not necessary or logical to eat the same way, using the same hand, chewing our food a certain way or holding our untensils in the same hand. I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Just do what has to be done and follow what has to be followed, but let's not continue to delude ourselves into thinking that we have to do things exactly alike nor do we have to follow the same exact views alike either.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Bro, perhaps you should go and reread my post. I did not in any shape or form insinuate that we should be clones when it comes to deen-particularly regarding our personal stage of Islam. I said the exact opposite.
ONE
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Peace be with you SalikahDC,
Are you talking about a "sect" or a "cult"?
Sect (noun)
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.Cult (noun)
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.the followers of such a religion or sect.In all honesty and actuality, I ask you is there Really difference here? Extremist, Cult-Like sunnis believe that a righteous woman is one who covers her hair. Most Liberal sunnis from other so-called muslim Sects believe the sam exact thing. Sunni sects and sunni extremist cults alike believe in Pilgrimage to Mecca and they all actually believe that this Pilgrimage erases past sins and mistakes and gives them a clean slate. So is there really any difference?
If we disagree, we disagree and its really not that big of a deal if we do.
That's exactly how I feel. I said earlier that I believe that a strong community is made up of people who will have these disagreements and still remain united on the fundamental issues.
Since we are different from others who use the Qur'an as a source of guidance, we are, technically, a sect.
The fact that there is not a unified view concerning salat actually invalidates this statement. The sunnis and shiahs may not agree on exactly HOW their physical prayer is to be peformed, but they definately agree that it is a physical prayer towards Mecca. Many people here are very much divided on this one issue alone, let alone scores of other issues. This fact alone makes us non-sectarian since we do not have a unified view on alot of these issues. We are just a group of people who come together to share their own individual understandings on certain issues. A sect is already agreed upon about the issues that we discuss here.
I actually have 551-2 and 37 marked in my Qur'an as the "read if you are frustrated" verses. I read them last night and gained peace. Thanks for the referral.
You are welcome and I'm glad if I am able to be of any help to you.
On a related note I would like to share with everyone that a Muslim is not simply one who submits to GOD. Literally, the term muslim is one who is a peaceful person. I am 100% at peace with knowing that only GOD makes muslims, that He is the one who teaches and guides and only He knows the exact truth. I am at peace having my understandings and respecting others who have different understandings than mine. Because in the end only GOD knows 100% for sure. I am perfectly happy and at peace with this. No worrys, no stress, no drama. This is why I no longer participate in ideological debates anymore. Only GOD guides and only He knows best who is deserving of His guidance. With this understanding, I believe that I truly know what it means to be a Muslim.
ONE.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be with you SalkihaDC,
Bro, perhaps you should go and reread my post. I did not in any shape or form insinuate that we should be clones when it comes to deen-particularly regarding our personal stage of Islam. I said the exact opposite.
Yes I'm aware that you said the opposite, I was commenting on how you and Natu would like discussions to be held so that we can come to a unified view and understanding of Salaat. I apologize, maybe I should've pointed that out when I made that particular statement. My apologies.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Natu Lotetree
Present the evidence for your ideas of what 'Solaa' is all about and then the rest of us can decide and think for ourselves and pick the best way or continue in our own way. Natu I wouldn't worry about those who unjustly label others and I'm sure you wouldn't. Disregard them unless they have evidence.
Nural
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Peace Natu Lotetree
Present the evidence for your ideas of what 'Solaa' is all about and then the rest of us can decide and think for ourselves and pick the best way or continue in our own way. Natu I wouldn't worry about those who unjustly label others and I'm sure you wouldn't. Disregard them unless they have evidence.
Nural
Hello Nural,
The debate on this topic is whether we should reach a consensus on each topic discussed and have that consensus as an official rule of the FreeMinds.org. I say what is your view on that matter....?
Regards,
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The debate on this topic is whether we should reach a consensus on each topic discussed and have that consensus as an official rule of the FreeMinds.org. I say what is your view on that matter....?
Peace Lotetree
I would like to answer you question on behalf of Nural. I've been waiting for someone to ask the question in just the way you worded it.
First and foremost, this is "free-minds", so there are no "official rules", because even if there were, it would mean nothing, people would do what they wish, this website has no authority over anyone, nor do I claim to have any authority in opening THE THREAD
Secondly, the aim of what I am trying to do at the moment is not to reach a common consensus, but to call for clarification for a few things - 'THE THREAD' of the salat section being a key tool for this to be done.
As it is, topics like how to pay zakat (traditionally understood as religious tithe), or topics like whether messengers will come after Muhammad are of less importance than some others. The reason I have tried to work for a structured and peaceful open minded debate is that the issue in question - salat - could (as a sizeable majority would agree) amount to idolatry, whilst others would disagree, and all due respect must be given to peoples views. Taking different views is healthy, because it expresses our individuality and the talent of our lord who created us, but in some concepts even a little slackness can lead to dire consequences (we can subconsciously even set up our own egos as idols beside God). As far as having different personal interpretations, this is fine, some people who accept physical salat pray differently to others who also accept it, and the twice daily commitments of non-physical salat are also done in a number of ways amongst those who reject physical salat. These are the differences we can be soft on, like whether we should be like God or not, but in fundamentals, we need to work extremely hard to find the truth.
We can all have our independent methods of interpreting things, but if for example, somebody says that the Quran says that there are two gods (please not that I am not claiming this of those who accept physical salat, it is merely an example, manor of speaking), then this is blatant misunderstanding of the Quran. The issue we face today is whether physical salat is correct or not, and the foundations of such an issue lie in the Quran - this is not subjective. It would appear to many people on this forum, that if we accept physical salat then we are committing idolatry (all brothers and sisters please don't debate this here, the appropriate thread is available for this), and this is an extremely important issue to discuss, for our own benefit, and the benefit of those who may be missing out on credit from God (by rejecting physical salat), or indulging in idol worship (by accepting physical salat).
Some would say that this difference alone could distinguish between a believer and a disbeliever. And in such an instance, I believe that it is a matter of emergency that we all leave our selfishness behind and try to help each other. As may be found in 'THE THREAD', my position is such that I appreciate that there are weakness on both sides of the argument and I behave open-mindedly. It is not such that I am trying to get people to understand or anything - I merely worry that there may be some amongst us who may be being led astray whilst thinking they are believers. Please forgive me for wording this in such as way, but I really could not put it down in a clearer way.
The worst thing we can do is set up an idol besides God, and if any topic has even the slightest substance to make some tiny connection with idolatry, then it is our duty as Muslim brothers and sisters to work together and see what the truth is. Some may be happy as they are, (physical or non physical salat), which I personally do not approve of, we need to work together to understand this topic which was covered up as a taboo subject by the sectarians. But as guided people, it is our duty at least to help ourselves. If this involves debate on a fundamental, then so be it, but we cannot disregard something which has even the slightest connection to setting up idols, for fear for ourselves and for our brothers and sisters, we need to come together and clear up misunderstandings. Salat is a fundamental, we need to clear up misunderstandings, whether they turn out to be on part of those who accept physical salat or those who reject it. My position on this issue will remain neutral until all relevant verses have been successfully discussed in THE THREAD of the salat section. I will not discuss this in this thread; one thread is enough to make all results and findings easily accessible to all.
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Hello Natu,
Thanks for the clarification again...
First and foremost, this is "free-minds", so there are no "official rules", because even if there were, it would mean nothing, people would do what they wish, this website has no authority over anyone....
Agreed. Lets keep it this way.
But I agree with you as I said before on debating Salat. So lets begin this on the relevant thread or shall we open a new thread so that members can begin a fresh?
Take care.
Regards,
