Kaba Corruption
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Peace idris - I'll check them out now, thanks.
From the following site
http//szen.frens.net/archives/categories/articles/
http//szen.frens.net/archives/Datuk%20Awang-s.JPG
Datuk Awang Temple- An idol dressed in Muslim clothes in a mosque like structure with joss sticks burning in front of the altar
The highlight of the trip to the Koay Jetty for me was seeing this alter. Those that are familiar with the Muslim and Buddhist believe can take note of the uniqueness of the presence of both religions in one altar. This altar broke so many boundaries in my understanding of religions.
I don't know what to take from this one to be honest... I think it was someone very confused who made it.
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Peace, Im back with more
From http//www.therefinersfire.org/mecca.htm
Kaba is a cubic shrine in the middle of the city of Mecca. The shrine is covered by an expensive dark cloth made out of silk and satin, embroidered with golden koranic verses (and decorated by gems). On one of the corners of Kaba, there is a black stone covered by gold. This stone looks like a kind of meteor that can be found in the asteroid belt. The room inside Kaba is a forbidden place to visit. Only the king of the nation, the Imam (priests) of the city, and on rare occasions Muslim kings and princess are allowed to enter that room, (Nobody else knows what is displayed in its interior).
V interesting, no?
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Peace
Good on you Natu. Just keep digging. I do not claim to know excactly what the symbols are, but by looking at other cultures through history i can get an idea of what they definately ISNT!.
regards
Noah -
Salam all..
Nice effort to unravel the truths about Ka'ba.. but i m wondering how authentic and reliable can these proofs and sources be ?
Regards,
Truth.Seeker -
Peace
What would you call authentic and reliable. by what definition should we know such terms?
regards
Noah -
Salam Noah,
What would you call authentic and reliable. by what definition should we know such terms?
Well.. that is what I am confused about. When I read AididSafar's book, i had checked these things, but I was/am unsure about how to deal with these information, what is the criterion to decide whether a piece of information (historic) may be authentic, reliable ?
Regards,
truth.seeker -
Peace truth seeker
Well, the conclution i have come to so far is that history as it is tought is a lie. However, there have been good people throughout history who tried to enlighten people, only most of those were burned at the stake.
It is tricky, the only criteria i have avaible is to try and look at who said it, what theyre motifs might be and thats it. thats all any of us have to go by.One researcher i quote like is Jordan Maxwell. We do not draw the same conclutions, but are roughly on the same page. He is worth listening too, if you keep in mind that he wants to resell the new testament, aswell as inform.
So he has a conflict of interrest, but his research however is groundbreaking.Regards
Noah -
This is all interesting, but the possibility still exists that the Kabaa was made by Abraham and the people later fell into idolatry.
The possibility still exists that it wasn't built by Abraham too!
What I find interesting is the way you worded your post. 'Fell' into idolatry - isn't that exactly what people do when they fall prostrate to the kaba. But looking from far at the idea of prostrating to anything, be it a car or a building, their is something fishy going on... and considering the fact that we can even be idolising our own egos, I think we need to be very careful when we prostrate to something... thats my personal view anyway.
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The possibility still exists that it wasn't built by Abraham too!
Khi- Salam. Yes n tht shld be our main focus. We can easily disprove the Kaaba in SAudi 2day is not the Masjidul Haraam n Al-Kaaba as mentioned in the Quran by showing tht these were NOT the names of tht place in Mecca BE4 THE TIME OF THE PROPHET. Tht wld mean ppl later adjusted the places names according 2 Quranic terms 2 suit them. Uptil now this has not been shown.
What I find interesting is the way you worded your post. 'Fell' into idolatry - isn't that exactly what people do when they fall prostrate to the kaba. But looking from far at the idea of prostrating to anything, be it a car or a building, their is something fishy going on... and considering the fact that we can even be idolising our own egos, I think we need to be very careful when we prostrate to something... thats my personal view anyway.
Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command. So is GOD commanding idol worship. Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship. Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat. Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless! -
Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command.
The angels except iblis, submitted to adam, they didn't prostrate to him, how would Adam benefit from that? The angels submitted becuase they were to help make the world work, like distribute the rain and wind, not to come to Earth and carry on prostrating to Adam.
Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship.So if someone is on a throne how can they prostrate? - the physics just don't work out my friend, they submitted to him by accepting what he was saying.
Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat.
This is the point where logic falters. Do we accept that a hindu prostrating to an idol of Ganesh (Elephant) - (see surah al-fil) is comitting idol worship. Now if you ask the hindu who does that, they won't say we see that this stone idol has power, we are only facing it! Thats is exactly the same with the kaba. Just becuase many of us are from from it and don't realise that we are prostrating to it, (whilst acrtually facing up into space), it doesn't mean that its a bigger idol soit the physical direction doesn't matter. In my view, the closer you get, the more you realise that it is idol worship, imaine what the person closest to a wall of the kaba would be feeling inside, when prostrating to it 'why am I doing this?' but whould probably carry on thinking God ordered us to prostrate to the idol.
Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless!
"Ofcourse prostrating to the black cube IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship." people prostrate to the kaba thinking they are doing a good thing, (i.e. with the hope to attain salvation). GOD Bless!
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The angels except iblis, submitted to adam, they didn't prostrate to him, how would Adam benefit from that? The angels submitted becuase they were to help make the world work, like distribute the rain and wind, not to come to Earth and carry on prostrating to Adam.
Khi- Salam. So u mean 2 say tht submitting 'sajda' 2 anyone besides GOD is ok while doing physical 'sajda' ONLY 2wards tht thing WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok? I think this doesnt make sense at all.
So if someone is on a throne how can they prostrate? - the physics just don't work out my friend, they submitted to him by accepting what he was saying.
Khi- The kings in the past used 2 be physically prosrated 2 while they sat on the throne. Otherwise how can we face the kaaba on a spherical earth? The pt is 2 take tht direction of walking in which we reach the thing 2 be prostrated. Similar is the case with the throne. We simply face the throne if the person is on it from the side where he climbs it, since walking tht direction wld lead us eventually up the throne n 2 the person.
This is the point where logic falters. Do we accept that a hindu prostrating to an idol of Ganesh (Elephant) - (see surah al-fil) is comitting idol worship. Now if you ask the hindu who does that, they won't say we see that this stone idol has power, we are only facing it!
Khi- Y else wld he face an elephant structure which is an image of a living being. Theres a lot of difference of facing a wall, bricks n cement or an image of living things. The latter obviously shows ulterior motives.
Thats is exactly the same with the kaba. Just becuase many of us are from from it and don't realise that we are prostrating to it, (whilst acrtually facing up into space), it doesn't mean that its a bigger idol soit the physical direction doesn't matter. In my view, the closer you get, the more you realise that it is idol worship, imaine what the person closest to a wall of the kaba would be feeling inside, when prostrating to it 'why am I doing this?' but whould probably carry on thinking God ordered us to prostrate to the idol.
Khi- As i said the kaaba is made in no image of any animated being. It is simply bricks. The only two reasons which wld come 2 mind while one is protrating 2WARDS NOT 2 it r 1) GOD commanded it as u rightly said so tht 2) there be discipline throughout.
"Ofcourse prostrating to the black cube IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship." people prostrate to the kaba thinking they are doing a good thing, (i.e. with the hope to attain salvation). GOD Bless!
Khi- Lemme rephrase my statment. Ppl believe tht the black stone has the power 2 forgive n they kiss it coz they think tht wld lead 2 their sins being forgiven. However nobody thinks abt forgiveness just by facing the kaaba. It is a command of GOD yes n a discplinary act which is supposed 2 promote unity. Hindus have no such concept of focus. They believe in intercession of their idols similar 2 tht of the black stone in the kaaba which r obviously wrong. I hope i made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
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Peace.
Khi- Salam. So u mean 2 say tht submitting 'sajda' 2 anyone besides GOD is ok while doing physical 'sajda' ONLY 2wards tht thing WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok? I think this doesnt make sense at all.
I couldn't agree with you more, becuase we are never told to do 'physical sajda' - we are only ever told to submit. Not to prostrate.
Khi- The kings in the past used 2 be physically prosrated 2 while they sat on the throne. Otherwise how can we face the kaaba on a spherical earth?
How can you be physically prostrated while sitting down? Perhaps there's a reason why God made the Earth Spherical, to prove that we're not supposed to prostrate in the direction of the 'kaba'
The pt is 2 take tht direction of walking in which we reach the thing 2 be prostrated. Similar is the case with the throne. We simply face the throne if the person is on it from the side where he climbs it, since walking tht direction wld lead us eventually up the throne n 2 the person.
This is making no sense we're not told to prostrate to any throne, and God never told us to prostrate along the direction of walking. If the kaba is further than your horizon, then you cannot possibly face it, you'll always be facing out into space. Thats the reason why God made the Earth spherical.
Khi- Y else wld he face an elephant structure which is an image of a living being. Theres a lot of difference of facing a wall, bricks n cement or an image of living things. The latter obviously shows ulterior motives.
OK, so do you you approve of the Jews wailing wall? - That's their idol! Just becuase the muslim idol is a lot larger and sculpted less ornately doesn't mean it is an idol. We need to be very careful, if we can even idolise our own egos, we can certainly idolise a sube shaped building made of stone.
Khi- As i said the kaaba is made in no image of any animated being. It is simply bricks. The only two reasons which wld come 2 mind while one is protrating 2WARDS NOT 2 it r 1) GOD commanded it as u rightly said so tht 2) there be discipline throughout.
It is not 'simply bricks', it is stone bricks, something God advises us not to set up as partners with him. God never commands prostrating to the 'kaba', and I never said that. Even a hindu prostrating towards a sculpture of Ganesh says that he/she is not prostrating to it, but prostrating in that direction along with the rest of the idolaters with him/her. The kaba is no different.
Khi- Lemme rephrase my statment. Ppl believe tht the black stone has the power 2 forgive n they kiss it coz they think tht wld lead 2 their sins being forgiven. However nobody thinks abt forgiveness just by facing the kaaba. It is a command of GOD yes n a discplinary act which is supposed 2 promote unity. Hindus have no such concept of focus. They believe in intercession of their idols similar 2 tht of the black stone in the kaaba which r obviously wrong. I hope i made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
Just becuase different valuesare given to it doesn't mean it is not an idol, we don't say that our egos can intercede for us, but they can still be our idols according to God. The 'kaba' can also most certainly be an idol if you prostrate towards it, even though it hasn't been considered as one for centuries. I hope I made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
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Peace Natu,
I too vehemently was against the idea of physical prostration until I was given a sign that confirmed for me the verses which indicate that it is most certainly a way of reverencing the God.
17107 Proclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
17108 They say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
17109 They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
You may argue, but who prostrates on their chins now?
I don't think this is a command to prostrate on ones chin, but rather a description of what these people do/did. One may equally prostrate by placing one's head on the floor, or by lying face down completely prostrate as the term technically means. What matters is the humbling of the individual.
I disagree with a need for physical direction however; there is no authority for facing a physical direction from my understanding. All directions belong to God and that is what is clear both from the reading and from logic.
Regards.
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Peace Truth,
My personal understanding of the bit about the chins is that its the chins that fall!
Let me explain, firstly, this cannot possibly be anything to do with prostrating, becuase it looks like a bit of a funny way to prostrate.
Normally, you would get arrogant big timers walking the Earth with their heads up, but those who humbly submit, they have their heads lowered in humility to God, they are not proud of themselves. So technically, I see this verese as an excellent description of how people ought to appear, how a believer would look!
Is my understanding logical?
Perhaps we might want to add that verse (17109) to the following thread so it can be discussed systematically. Thanks Truth! (Have a look Truth, you might like the way things are going)...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
Look forward to seeing you there.