Your stand on alcohol consumption based on Quran
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@OnlyOneGod Have you looked at this topic on previous threads?
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602930
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121
Based on my study and individual understanding, alcohol is not haram (follow your ~own~ understanding, not mine).
Is there really anything new to be said about this topic? According to the Bible (John 21-11), Jesus (Peace upon all Prophets) turned water to wine. Wine in paradise (4715), wine from grapes (1667), prohibition from praying while "befogged" (443), avoiding Satan (590), endogenous fermentation, natural occurrence of alcohol, water as an intoxicant...all this and more has already been discussed. It's enough to drive a person to drink!
732 Say "Who has made forbidden the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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quran does not say
lie is haram
dishonesty is haram
cheating is haram
robbery is harambut quran say us to stay away from it .. for our own Good
same thing "ijtanabu" quran used it for alcohol and gambling
we should stay away from it too.. for our own goodalthough the verse indicate stay away from devil(shaitan)/evil
the word quran use in 2219 is is translated as sin not as "HARM"
in all other occassions this word is understood as "SIN"so we should avoid sin at any cost..
the catagory is although not like a "PIG" meat thats why people do it in general bothering not much about it same as they lie ,cheat and do other small sins without bothering much..
but in some cases alcohal related accidents cost the lives of people and society so its better if we stay away from this thing..
I agree that Alcohol related issues can be very devastating not only to the individual but also (in some instances) to the people around them. So why then is pig haram or eating dead meat and blood haram and yet alcohol that can potentially have society wide implications come in the category of "ijtanabu"? Obviously its Gods wisdom but then does it mean that we can consume alcohol as long as we don't go overboard? Because I find Haram to mean something that is a not allowed at all, while alcohol does not seem to fall within that category.
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The question put up in this thread is not whether alcohol is haram or not but the stand on alcohol concumption based on Qur'an.
If alcohol is the work of shaytan and corrupting but it is not haram, that is great. We can have a great time with shaytan's corrupting work any time we feel like it. It is not haram.
Who fears shaytan and his works if it is not haram? Why should we be held up from the corrupt worok of Shaytan if it is not haram. What can be wrong with it. We are so good so moderate why should we fear it and keep away from it as fromthe devil? Those whowant to spoil the fun cannot prohibit us what God does not prohibit. Is not that great. nd sometimes if you are moderte Shytan is so friendly...
Salaam
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The question put up in this thread is not whether alcohol is haram or not but the stand on alcohol concumption based on Qur'an.
If alcohol is the work of shaytan and corrupting but it is not haram, that is great. We can have a great time with shaytan's corrupting work any time we feel like it. It is not haram.
Who fears shaytan and his works if it is not haram? Why should we be held up from the corrupt worok of Shaytan if it is not haram. What can be wrong with it. We are so good so moderate why should we fear it and keep away from it as fromthe devil? Those whowant to spoil the fun cannot prohibit us what God does not prohibit. Is not that great. nd sometimes if you are moderte Shytan is so friendly...
Salaam
Actually the question is very clear on whether alcohol is "haram" based on the Quran. I think my first sentence in the OP clarifies that.
If you are going to deflect and talk about things that shaytan entices people towards then (just like the hadith lovers) you will declare a lot of things "haram" which God did not declare "haram".
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You are worng I do not cling to declaring haram anything at all, but you cling to something not being haram you make it problemless that is nto what the qur'an says. As to the categories haram nd halal as right or wrong equivalents and nothing asiade of that, that is hadithism in deed, and not Qur'an. Qur'an is far more intelligent and refined than that.
You seem to think that if it is not haram, called haram in Qur'an, you can go ahead and no problem, well it is not like that, you may do whatever you like but ypu will have to answer for what you do. Not labelling something haram does not turn people into irresponsible robots.
Salaam
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You are worng I do not cling to declaring haram anything at all, but you cling to something not being haram you make it problemless that is nto what the qur'an says. As to the categories haram nd halal as right or wrong equivalents and nothing asiade of that, that is hadithism in deed, and not Qur'an. Qur'an is far more intelligent and refined than that.
You seem to think that if it is not haram, called haram in Qur'an, you can go ahead and no problem, well it is not like that, you may do whatever you like but ypu will have to answer for what you do. Not labelling something haram does not turn people into irresponsible robots.
Salaam
I do not say that non-Haram things are acceptable. This is your own interpretation on my wordings. What I simply ask is whether alcohol is "haram" as per the Quran. If you bother to view my previous postings in this thread I clearly mention the devastating effect alcohol can have on the person and their family.
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So it is not declared haram, so what. What do you get out of that? Yu can go ahead and drink and no qualms?
The question is not whether it is haram or halal but whether youa re well advised to do it or not.God does nto say that if you do not do anything haram you are a good person or that you are muslim.
On the other hand it is not me who puts shaytan on the scene but the Qur'an. You may want to make light of it or ridicule it, but it is there, and it does nto say that shaytan "entices", as you put it, but says that spirits (amongst other things) are "rijsun min 3amal ash-shaytan", are a corruption work of shaytan, so really the fact that it is not called haram, really what does tell you, that you may go and drink? It is like saying to somebody "yes your are freeto go inside that building that is crumbling under the fire". It is not forbidden to go into it, but why would you want to do such a thing? For the kicks?
If it is to guarantee a right that you are harping on the not haram, do nto worry we do all of us have that right, but that makes the question more difficult and not easier and if God did not call it haram it is because He knows it is more difficult than that. Not any prohibition but only the very strong conviction can keep anybody from drinking and encouraging thereby others to drink.
Salaam
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So it is not declared haram, so what. What do you get out of that? Yu can go ahead and drink and no qualms?
The question is not whether it is haram or halal but whether youa re well advised to do it or not.God does nto say that if you do not do anything haram you are a good person or that you are muslim.
On the other hand it is not me who puts shaytan on the scene but the Qur'an. You may want to make light of it or ridicule it, but it is there, and it does nto say that shaytan "entices", as you put it, but says that spirits (amongst other things) are "rijsun min 3amal ash-shaytan", are a corruption work of shaytan, so really the fact that it is not called haram, really what does tell you, that you may go and drink? It is like saying to somebody "yes your are freeto go inside that building that is crumbling under the fire". It is not forbidden to go into it, but why would you want to do such a thing? For the kicks?
If it is to guarantee a right that you are harping on the not haram, do nto worry we do all of us have that right, but that makes the question more difficult and not easier and if God did not call it haram it is because He knows it is more difficult than that. Not any prohibition but only the very strong conviction can keep anybody from drinking and encouraging thereby others to drink.
Salaam
Ok then why did God create a "Haram" category of things? Why did God say not to put things into this category unless God himself did not do so? Is that not stated in the Quran?
What is the value of this so called "haram" category if you feel that you can insert other things to fall within it which God did not within the Quran? What is the difference between the Quranic Haram and the things you want to insert into it?
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Peace, it?s straight forward advice especially detrimental if done together/combination like gambling and drunk.
2219 asked they you about l-khamri/the inebriant and the wager say in them dual ith'mun/detriment great and gains (i.e. medicinal when taken in moderation e.g. glass of wine perhaps, analytics study, etc. hence still useful) to the humankind ith'muhum/and detriment them dual greater from benefit them dual...
590 O you the ones believes ye of only the inebriant and the wager and the monuments/altars for sacrifice and the arrows filthiness from work the devil so avoid ye him that may you succeeding 591 only intends the devil that cause between you the hostility and the hatred in the inebriant and the wager and hinder you about remembrance the god and from the connection so can be you ceasing?
443 O you the ones believes ye of not approach ye of the connection and are you sukr/intoxicated until thou know ye of what thou saying?
1667 and from fruits the date palms and the grapes thou taking from it sakaran/intoxicant of and provision of good of indeed in such surely sign for folk reasoning
It?s also important to note that years ago water especially not running or in containers could have harmful microorganisms and make people sick same as today when visiting some third world countries e.g. Mexico hence people drank beer/wine especially when on long voyages.
This reminds me of the book "The Turkish Letters of Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq" him traveling to Istanbul at time of Suleiman the Magnificent via Balkans when he encounters Janissaries (one of my great grandfathers was their imam/spiritual leader lol) which their function when not at war was to "police and protect? Christians under Ottoman rule. He says they were respectful, often silent, and one would think they were monks without knowing them. They also liked wine and when offered drank all they could since they considered it a sin to have even a small sip so either way the punishment was equal.
https//books.google.com/books/about/The_Turkish_Letters_of_Ogier_Ghiselin_de.html?id=AnynLQ_cgjYC
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I agree that Alcohol related issues can be very devastating not only to the individual but also (in some instances) to the people around them. So why then is pig haram or eating dead meat and blood haram and yet alcohol that can potentially have society wide implications come in the category of "ijtanabu"? Obviously its Gods wisdom but then does it mean that we can consume alcohol as long as we don't go overboard? Because I find Haram to mean something that is a not allowed at all, while alcohol does not seem to fall within that category.
actually there is a difference in between PIG and alcohol
PIG is filth
alcohol is danger(highly inflammeable)i usually prefer not to talk about this issue as i witness one of my frd family effected by this thing its kinda senstive topic for me.. i will not advise anybody to go near it..
but the fact and the wording of God is far above emotions
so lets summarise it for last time..
"ijtanab" from devil
"ithm" are in themlet say forget about alcohol , if you consider a Gun there are both good and harm in it too
apply everything in general you can have benefits and harms both.. so God did not prohibited it as we know alcohol as a chemical is something important to b used for killing bacteria and infections , medical use.. mouthwash use.. perfume useso according to Quran yeh its not in the list of "haram" but while addressing alcohol God already told us the dangerous properties of this substance.. and these dangerous properties are exist in evething literal
like this laptop and internet.. either read a quran thorough it, give a charity through it.. but you can also watch porn and disturb/abuse people by same medium. do cyber crime and fraud by same medium
so i dnt think so its hard to understand what author want us to tell..
nobody have a right to declare something "haram" which is not haram by God..
the problemtic thing for making it haram is the verse in which you are advice to stay away from sala if you are intoxicated by default what does it mean.. are we allowed to take it on other hours?
and the event of jospeh and the example of wine rivers, there is not any pig rivers/roast in heavens why?
thats my last post on this thread becoz trully i dnt not want anybody to consume alcohol but it will not change the fact when we collect all the verses of alcohol its totally different than pig..
God bless you
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actually there is a difference in between PIG and alcohol
PIG is filth
alcohol is danger(highly inflammeable)i usually prefer not to talk about this issue as i witness one of my frd family effected by this thing its kinda senstive topic for me.. i will not advise anybody to go near it..
but the fact and the wording of God is far above emotions
so lets summarise it for last time..
"ijtanab" from devil
"ithm" are in themlet say forget about alcohol , if you consider a Gun there are both good and harm in it too
apply everything in general you can have benefits and harms both.. so God did not prohibited it as we know alcohol as a chemical is something important to b used for killing bacteria and infections , medical use.. mouthwash use.. perfume useso according to Quran yeh its not in the list of "haram" but while addressing alcohol God already told us the dangerous properties of this substance.. and these dangerous properties are exist in evething literal
like this laptop and internet.. either read a quran thorough it, give a charity through it.. but you can also watch porn and disturb/abuse people by same medium. do cyber crime and fraud by same medium
so i dnt think so its hard to understand what author want us to tell..
nobody have a right to declare something "haram" which is not haram by God..
the problemtic thing for making it haram is the verse in which you are advice to stay away from sala if you are intoxicated by default what does it mean.. are we allowed to take it on other hours?
and the event of jospeh and the example of wine rivers, there is not any pig rivers/roast in heavens why?
thats my last post on this thread becoz trully i dnt not want anybody to consume alcohol but it will not change the fact when we collect all the verses of alcohol its totally different than pig..
God bless you
Ok, seems like people are deflecting. Atleast you agree that Quran is not clear on its guidance related to alcohol. Btw i do consume alcohol and that is why I had this query.
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I disagree that the Qur'an is not clear in its guidance. It cannot be clearer. But if we demand that it says what it does not say, that is something different.
Why should we subject God's guidance to an absur rule of saying haram or halal? push button A or button B. What if God does not want us to respond to buttons? What if He wants us something else from us? Who is here exacting from whom?
Salaam
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733
Say, ?My Lord has prohibited only the shameful acts, whether open or secret, and the ithm, and unjust aggression, and that you associate with Allah anything for which He has not sent any authority, and that you attribute to Allah any thing about which you do not have sure knowledge.
2219
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, ?In both there is great ithm, and some benefits for people. And their sin is greater than their benefit.?
So ithm is haram.
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Know what else the Almighty has prohibited? hmm
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is permissible, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
If one doesn't want anything to do with alcohol--don't. On the other hand, don't create lies saying that it is prohibited. It isn't prohibited.
We are warned about dangers associated with drinking. If drinking is prohibited, those dangers are moot--as are the benefits.
The prohibition against praying while intoxicated would be redundant if intoxication was already prohibited. The example of Paradise has rivers of wine in it. The Prophet Jesus (Peace upon all Prophets) is said to have turned water to wine. There is no outright prohibition against alcohol--where else is anything that is prohibited approached so obliquely? Why does 1667 talk about making intoxicants, if they are "forbidden" to consume?
It boggles my mind that so many of those that purport to follow the Guidance chase after their desires instead.
1777 Such was the way of those whom We had sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
https//www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible
Oh, maybe the Almighty meant no change ~except~ for alcohol? nope
Are there those that want to create a new religion and abstaining from alcohol is one of the rites? Interested parties can proceed in peace without me.
732 Say "Who has made forbidden the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
Maybe like the wine in the example of Paradise?
There are different types of excess in this world. Parsimony is an excess, and extravagance is an excess. Don't fall into excesses.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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My take is very simple. What does GOD really say about "Khamr"?
- That we extract it/make it from fruits/food. It benefit us and harms us.
2 )Avoid "Khamr" for its harm outweighs its benefit.
For me there is no need to play any more gymnastics with GOD s words. Avoid means do not come anywhere near it!!!!!
To me this clearly means avoid "Khamr". There is no need for me to use other words like haram or halal. I am to avoid it full stop .i.e do not come anywhere near it,like I am to avoid idolatry and other harmful things.
Those who say you can drink"Khamr" in moderation ( And how much is moderation?)are not applying GOD s word "Avoid it".
One may say GOD said you make it,and do not approach salat intoxicated,yes but also added "avoid it" altogether. And I cannot find "drink it"(in moderation) anywhere in Qoran.Now ,used in other beneficial product and in controlled measure, It is called something else as in medicine etc...
For me ,Qoran is crystal clear. I am to "Avoid" Khamr.
GOD bless .
Peace. - That we extract it/make it from fruits/food. It benefit us and harms us.
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peace Gl
avoid what ?
avoid from it(alcohol). or
avoid from him(devil) -
Imran,you told me once that even a four year old will understand some words.
So,you avoid Shaytan but you do not avoid his works?
What is wrong with this logic brother?
Common, you are cleverer than that!
Do not come anywhere near any of his works including "Khamr". How can this not be simple?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
There seems to be here an inended war
Haram or not haram. We are just kids, we do not want any explanations nor anything we just want to be told the magic words haram or halal. And if we refuse to use those words, they are still pushed down our throats as if we did have an investment on them and extracted royal profits out of them.
God did not use them, those words concerning spirits. How dare God speak to us so obscurely as to say things without stating clearly that whatever it is speaking about is halal or haram? Since those are not used, we decide for ourselves and whatever is not haram is halal. But God did not use the word halal either, so...
But He did speak. g l. and others have reminded us of the "avoid" injunction, and it means something, it reminds us that it is us, our attitude that has command in the question. It is something we must do voluntarily, not because we are ordered to but because we are warned and we know by ourselves what is at stake.
Of course spirits are attractive, if they weren't we would not need to be convinced, but since they are, we do have to adopt a stand through our will. Nothing but our will and God's mercy will save us from the work of shaytan in spirits.
Why do those who defend the goodness of drinking turn the tables on those who insist on the evil of alcohol to accuse them of attempting to impose something they did not try to impose?
Who in the first place is trying to convince anybody of anything? If somebody wants to drink, he or she does not need anybody's permission in this forum or anywhere. They believe it is not wrong? Fine so, why do they ask? To get some alibi for their drinking? Why should they need it?
God is nto telling us anything new either in the Qur'an. The evils of alcohol are known since time immemorial. The attitude of anybody conscious of them would be not to ask that everybody is prohibited from drinking but rather that everybody is conscious of those evils, that work of shaytan, and out of their own will AVOID IT. That is the only effective way known of fighting those kinds of social evils. Nobody is thinking of hunting down drinkers or anything alike. So what is the problem? Who has a problem? I do not have any problem. I am quite capable of sharing a table with somebody who drinks in a meal or on any other ocasion. Rather sometimes it is the non drinker who is ridiculed because he or she "does not want to by happy an enjoy". No problem for me. I can perfectly live with that and many other things and enjoy without the magic of "halal" spirits. I do not need any alibi nor permission from anybody to behave the way a think I should.
So what is the problem with those that drink or would like to drink and ask about the Qur'an and do not like it if some people do not agree with them in their conclusions as to what the Qur'an is saying or intending?
Their question is a question that they should answer themselves, and in fact they answer themselves, so the remaining question is why they would seek the approval of those others who do not extract from Qur'an the "go ahead, there is nothing wrong with it"?
We are all grown ups, we know what we have to do or not to do. We do not have to give permission for anything to anybody nor do we need it in our turn. Just friendly discussion in order to study ourselves and our behaviour and learn what we might learn, but it is not us who will gurantee immunity or penance for anybody. Each person should ask her or himself his or her motives and grounds ofr what he or she does or does nto do.
So no need to accuse anybody of anything or get upset if there is disagreement.
Salaam and may we all find peace and be delivered from evil.