Kaba Corruption
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Salaam,
You might try using the invisible web, which are specialized search engines with massive databases that you cannot excess via the visible web, such as google or yahoo.
Try using http//www.intelliseek.com/search.htm or http//dir.lycos.com/Reference/Searchable_Databases or http//www.profusion.com
I personally prefer the last one.
Joe
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Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
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I couldn't agree with you more, becuase we are never told to do 'physical sajda' - we are only ever told to submit. Not to prostrate.
Khi- I think u didnt understand me. Let me rephrase it
U mean 2 say tht submitting(Arabic =sajda) 2 anyone besides GOD is FINE, ALRIGHT whereas doing physical prostration(ANOTHER MEANING IF NOT THE PRIMARY OF the Arabic word 'sajda') ONLY 2wards, NOT 4, a particular direction WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok?How can you be physically prostrated while sitting down? Perhaps there's a reason why God made the Earth Spherical, to prove that we're not supposed to prostrate in the direction of the 'kaba'
Khi- Ofcourse u can be prostrated while sitting down too. Sunnis pray salat by sitting n they bow n prostrate their head on a table. Also sajda is ALWAYS DONE IN THE SITING POSITION. So whts ur pt? N ur 2nd pt doesnt make sense 4 i gave u the reasons already.
This is making no sense we're not told to prostrate to any throne, and God never told us to prostrate along the direction of walking. If the kaba is further than your horizon, then you cannot possibly face it, you'll always be facing out into space. Thats the reason why God made the Earth spherical.
Khi- This is the logical sesne of it in the Arabic language. It's a very old custom n has always been understood in this way. Therefore the horizon part makes no sense. It's the direction in which we walk tht we reach the kaaba which cnts.
OK, so do you you approve of the Jews wailing wall? - That's their idol! Just becuase the muslim idol is a lot larger and sculpted less ornately doesn't mean it is an idol. We need to be very careful, if we can even idolise our own egos, we can certainly idolise a sube shaped building made of stone.
Khi- If they expect tht the wall has some particular powers of forgiveness in it like the "Muslims" do with the black stone in the kaaba then tht is obviously wrong n idol worship. However if they only make the wall their Qiblah then it's perfectly fine. This depends entirely on the intentions. Didnt GOD tell the Jews in the Quran 2 make their homes their Qiblah
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into Qiblahs, and maintain the Contact Prayers (Salat). Give good news to the believers."It is not 'simply bricks', it is stone bricks, something God advises us not to set up as partners with him. God never commands prostrating to the 'kaba', and I never said that. Even a hindu prostrating towards a sculpture of Ganesh says that he/she is not prostrating to it, but prostrating in that direction along with the rest of the idolaters with him/her. The kaba is no different.
Khi- Stone/bricks r similar. Wht do u mean? No one sets those up as partners besides GOD. The "Muslims" only set up the black stone as a partner but thts a different issue. GOD does command 2 face the Masjidul Haraam in the Quran wherever we may be
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
N the following verse shows Masjudil Haraam is the Kaaba
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
So we see the clear relation n GOD's command 2 face it. The prostration is done only in tht direction NOT 2 it. Thts y i highlighted 2WARDS n NOT to it.Just becuase different valuesare given to it doesn't mean it is not an idol, we don't say that our egos can intercede for us, but they can still be our idols according to God. The 'kaba' can also most certainly be an idol if you prostrate towards it, even though it hasn't been considered as one for centuries. I hope I made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
Khi- As i said it depends not on wht we say but on wht our intentions r. N the Kaaba cannot be an idol just 4 turning our faces 2wards it wherever we r as commanded by GOD in the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Natu,
Most people have a tendency to attach themselves to a routine or a set of laws, and no matter what you do they will defend them even when sufficient evidence is produced. Or maybe they just don't understand.
This Qiblah and physical prayer issue is a VERY BIG ISSUE, clarity is needed or maybe is already here on this topic. I think it is a test to differentiate between those who believe and don't. My opinion aside, this is a big issue and must be dealt with thoroughly.
I personally disown all these ideas and objects associated with GOD because it makes no sense to me and I see no significance in these objects and ideas. They restrict and make the religion hard, God made it easy, let's go back to basics and stay there!
Peace Nural
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Peace brother idmkhizar
First you have to prove that Allah has commanded us to TURN OUR FACES IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM "WHILE PRAYING"
There was no MASJID in MECCA, let alone the MASJID AL HARAM.
According to the history of Islam, there was no MASJID around the KAABA and the area around KAABA was called MASJID AL HARAM.
In the absence of a structure how did the prophet turned his face in the direction of the OPEN PLACE
Since there is no word "SALAAT" in all the 8 verses, revealed in the context of the QIBLAH, your belief that it is a command to face MASJID AL HARAM while PRAYING is 100% CONJECTURE.
Allah never commanded the Prophet to face KAABA but MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed.
Remember the MASJID AL HARAM is the TRUTH from the Lord and the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK know it.
A structure built by mankind can never be the truth from Allah.
WUDIcA
Placed / setWas the cubic structure set or placed or built? Without doubt mankind built it and therefore it was not Allah WHO built the House, because Allah never BUILDS anything but CREATES FROM NOTHING and PLACES.
WA- ASHRAQAT AL- 'ARD. BI- NOR RABB -HAA WA- WUD.IcA AL- KITAAB WA- JE'A BI- AN- NABEYEN WA- ASH- SHUHADAA' WA- QUD.IYA BAYNA -HUM BI- AL- H.AQQ WA- HUM LAA YUZ.LAMON 3969
And the heaven He has raised high, and He has (WAD.AcA) SET up the Balance. 557
And the earth He has (WAD.AcA) PLACED for the creatures. 5510
And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be (WUD.IcA) PLACED (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged. 3969
the BAYT was PLACED / SET for MANKIND and not BUILT.
The BAYT is appointed FOR MANKIND but it is GUIDANCE FOR THE AALAMEN.
Is there anyone in the world who has been guided by the KAABA?
Verily the first House set apart unto mankind was that at Bakka, blest, and a GUIDANCE UNTO THE WORLDS. 396
A MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION
CAN THE KAABA GUIDE EVERYONE? (AALAMEN)
Thanks.
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PEACE ALL
The following ayats would appear to eliminate Ibrahim even being in the area of Mecca, because if he was there, then, there was a warner before Muhammad.
2846 And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful.
323 Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.
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peace all
priest just nailed it down there, wow...Im not going to argue against Allah
Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
Interresting, can you point me in direction of where i can look at this?
And what makes you conclude that?Some symbols have been around for as long as written history and properbly before, and they have allway meant the same thing, just they had various names. The celtic sun symbol is one bright example. It turned into the zodiac, that is still a circle with a cross, just with some extra fillings. The vikings refered to this particular symbol as "sol hjulet" (sunwheel), and it is the same thing it represents today, even though its name changed.
Language change but symbols have a way of preserving their meaning and function.
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From
http//www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1322985/postsThe translation of the word ?hell? is ge,enna (gheh'-en-nah) in Greek. This Greek word derives it meaning from the Hebrew word, ?Gehinam? which is a reference to the Valley belonging to Hinnam in the Old Testament. In both Joshua 158 and Nehemiah 1130 this valley is referenced and is the historical background to which Jesus points. In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it. The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue. You can imagine that a brass statue would become exceedingly hot, even to the point of glowing red as brass would with such a fire inside it continually. And what the Jews did was place one of their youngest children in the burning hands of this statue and sacrifice their children alive. Their children would be set in the fiery hot hands of this heated furnace and burned until dead, as if to cook them alive. In some twisted and warped fashion, the fathers thought that such a sacrifice to this god would bless the other children and their home. There was a continual fire in the idol and thus, a continual shrieking and crying could be heard from the sacrifices of passing their children through this fire. It is even recorded in some of the writings of the Puritans that the Jews continued to play music and ring bells to drown out the sounds of the shrieking and crying of their children. Such a thing is unimaginable but recorded in such passages as 2 Chr. 336; 2 Ks 163, Jer. 731; 3235; and Lev. 1821. It was not until righteous king Josiah came along that this place was destroyed as recorded in 2 Kings 2310. This is a grotesque and sick picture, however, it is the picture which Jesus is reminding the Jews about as he uses the term ?hell.? Hell is the place of continual fire and burning; a place of unending torture. Its analogical history is one of warped and twisted sin, but its reality is a cause to which the God of the universe should be feared, for He has the power to cast men into a real and literal hell.
I've read about this elsewhere too. Ahmed Ali actually mentions it in his translation of the Quran as well. Google 'Hinnam hell' or something like that for more.
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peace riz
In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it.
Here you have molec. Personally i belive the story of the golden calf to be connected. But the trail has led me to two places and im unsure wich is correct. Either it is a refference to molec, or it has to do with the zodiac and the sign of the bull.
http//home.planet.nl/~reijd050/grove/molech_examples.gif
The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue.
The idea of the eternal flame is an old pagan one. And the symbol is videly used still today.
Remember in the Quran there is more than one warning that the people of the book will do anything and not be pleased with us untill we return to their relegion. Well...I think thats what they are doing even today, through symbolism, and by that subliminal messaging.
The whole world is a wash with eternal flames, we need to step back and ask ourself. why?
from freerepublic.
http//www.users.bigpond.com/SCHIP/scans/Eternal_Flame.jpghttp//www.rendtheheavens.org/images/Thunder%20Bay/Novomuskovsk%20-%20eternal%20flame.JPG
http//photos.nondot.org/2002-04-20-Washington-DC/2002-04-22/normal/18%20-%20JFK%20Eternal%20Flame.jpghttp//thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/Eternal-Flame.jpg
large image of eternal flame at arc de triomphe.The funny thing is that it is always conected to other diety's, such as samiramis, diana, dagon, nimrod etc etc..
As for the link it was very interresting thank you, but i still fail to see why back enginering history makes the Quran manmade? Well it IS manmade in the sense that God did not write it, but inspire it to a human (is inspire the right word?). )
Im searching for the truth about things, i belive that God requires no less.
I do not claim to know it, nor do i claim that i ever will unless God wants me to. But there are a lot of things going on around us that simply doesnt make any sense unless you start to connect it to ancient worship of diety's that where in a lot of cases, representations of planetary movement.the names may differ, the functions ascribed to them doesnt.
regards
Noah -
Guys we've got some fresh kit about Zam Zam, from...
http//www.vinnomot.com/SKhan/HolyWater.htmI would recommend that it is read with an open mind - (may be found offensive)
Once upon a time there was a prophet. His name was Abraham. He had two wives, Sara and Hagar. First wife Sara did not have any children but Hagar gave birth to Ismail, who became another prophet of the World Series. Abraham was unemployed and Allah did not send the social security check to time. The triple had no money to buy milk or water for the newly born son. So Abraham sent Hagar and her newborn son hundreds of miles away and abandoned them in the middle of the desert. When Hagar was running between the hills of Safa and Marwa in the search of water with an empty feeding bottle, baby Ismail became impatient and kicked the sand. Hurray! A pool of water surfaced and shaped itself into a well, the famous holy hole that will be called Zam Zam.
Muhammad, the quack doctor used to sprinkle the holy water of Zam Zam on sick people and make them drink the same. Since then, Zam Zam water became the holy water for Muslims. Every year, Muslims from all over the world visit Mecca and dance around the black cubicle. Pilgrims drink from Zam Zam to purify their souls and supposedly be cured from any disease that they may have. They also rub their noses and clean the wax of their ear with this holy water, a process called ablution or wuduu. Upon receiving the certificate of Al-Haj, they collect a bottle of Zam Zam water that will be used as medicine when they return home. They also dip their future burial clothes in the Zam Zam.
The Ganges River, also known as Ganga of Indian sub-continent that runs for 1560 miles from Himalayas to the ocean is more than just flowing water. When Hindus take a bath in this holy river, their sins are washed away. Their souls become pure by touching the water of Ganges or by consuming it. Obviously, Hindus call this river, savior of this world.
There are many conflicting and confusing stories regarding the origin of Ganga. According to Valmiki's Ramayana, Ganga was the daughter of Himalaya and Menaka. Himalaya is a mountain, whereas Menaka was a nymph and a nymphomaniac as well. Menaka cheated her husband and disappeared with her boyfriend Vishwamitra. During Menakas absence, her daughter Ganga was forced to live in a vessel. Menaka had good connections with other gods. According to Krittivas' Ramayana, the deities wanted Ganga to marry Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva was a very powerful god and as handsome as Elvis Presley. Until today, Hindu women worship the private part of Lord Shivas body. Anyway, Menaka called Gangas cell phone but no response! She called all of Gangas friends but none had a clue. Being unable to find Ganga, Menaka cursed Ganga to attain the form of water.
In an oasis, a small pond with a continuous supply of water may be a geological wonder but not a miracle. Yet Muslims believe, Zam Zam is a miracle because it never runs out of water. There are many natural wonders in this world that follow natures rule and Geyser is one of them. Geysers are hot springs that erupt hot, steaming water, sometimes at random and sometimes at a regular interval of time. The eruption of water stays for 1-20 minutes and it may go as high as 200 ft. There are several geysers in the Yellowstone park of America, one square mile basin of this park is home to hundreds of geysers and some are very hot springs, at the surface boiling point of 199? F / 93? C.
Fortunately, Muhammad or Allah did not know about these geysers. If they had the knowledge of geysers; they would have accepted these Geysers as miracles and command Muslims to throw all infidels in the boiling waters instead of grilling them.
People of other religions did not find enough holy water to take shower, so they depend on blessed water. The biblical river Jordan has lost its glamour and importance due to political unrest of Middle East. Now Christians, Jews and Buddhists use blessed water from their priests to drive away evils and be sanctified.
The irony of this story is the peculiar similarities between Muslims and Hindus despite their enmity. Muslims believe the myth of Zam Zam and Hindus are convinced with the story of Ganges water. They have one thing in common- Purify soul with miracle water.
Can a bottle of Zam Zam water clean the dark soul of a terrorist or a bucket of dirty and unhygienic water of Ganges change the heart of a Hindu? It was OK for ancient people to practice these ancient rituals but not for the people of the 21st century! Zam Zam water, blessed water and Ganges water are not the miracles; the miracle is the people of 21st century who believe them.
Definitely, the people of 80th century will be shocked when they learn about this holy water business and they will be laughing their heads off. So, lets honor our future generation and take a moment to laugh!
V interesting, no?
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Satire is a powerful weapon. Sher Khan is not the best practitioner I have read but I understand where he is coming from.
The Onion - has a very good satirical line in it today...
"(Christian) Heaven less opulent than Vatican... reports disappointed pope"
Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope
HEAVEN?The soul of Pope John Paul, which entered heaven last week following a long illness, expressed confusion and disappointment Saturday, upon learning that the Celestial Kingdom of God to which the departed faithful ascend in the afterlife is significantly less luxurious than the Vatican's Papal Palace, in which the pope spent the past 26 years of his earthly life.
"Where are all the marble statues, sterling-silver chalices, and gem-encrusted scepters?" the visibly disappointed pope asked. "Where are the 60-foot-tall stained-glass windows and hand-painted cupolas? Where are the elaborately outfitted ranks of Swiss Guards? Why isn't every single surface gilded? This is my eternal reward?"
Heaven, according to the New Testament, has "brilliance like a very costly stone... of pure gold, like clear glass..." with "twelve gates... each gate a single pearl." Yet the pope, who spoke from the afterlife, said heaven is nothing like the "solid-gold city" detailed at length by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelations.
"Evidently, the Bible was not intended to be taken literally, after all," John Paul II said. "Don't get me wrong It's very nice up here?quite beautiful and serene. It's just not as fancy as what I'm accustomed to. If I'd known heaven was going to be like this, I would've taken one last tour through my 50 rooms of velvet-draped thrones and priceless oil paintings before saying 'Amen' and breathing my last."
According to the pope, heaven is merely a place of unending peace and happiness, wherein all the spirits of the Elect live together forever in perfect harmony and goodness, basking in the rays of God's divine love.
Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope"Up here, everyone is equal," John Paul II said. "No one has to go through an elaborate bowing ritual when they greet me. And do you know how many times my ring has been kissed since I arrived? None. Up here, I'm mingling with tax collectors, fishermen, and whores. It's just going to take a little getting used to, is all."
The pope said it is amusing to think that he has been waiting for this "so-called Paradise" his entire life.
"I spent almost 84 years reciting novenas and Hail Marys to get to this restful place," John Paul II said. "If I'd wanted peace, quiet, and pretty clouds, I could've moved to the Italian Riviera. Frankly, this afterlife represents a significant drop in my standard of living."
"Well, they always said you can't take it with you," he added.
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And more... (http//www.salagram.net/VWH-World.html)
- It is well known that Mohammed smashed all the deities except of that of Allah, and buried them in the cellars of the Temple. The Black Stone is black with reddish tones and yellow particles. It is an ovoid shape, about 111 inches wide and 15 inches high. This is typical shape and colour of Shiva-linga. In the book World Vedic Heritage it is said, "The general belief that Kaba is only a Shiva temple is not true. It is originated as a Vedic Shrine depicting the Vedic version of the creation with a reclining Vishnu's navel forming the centre of the cosmic theme. A whole pantheon of Vedic gods surrounded Vishnu. Mohammed destroyed them all. The Shiva-linga stone wrenched away from its base was retained as a sacred symbol because it was the special patron and a faceless deity of Mohammed's Kuru-ishi household. He was a Shaivite. That was why those insisting that the caliphate remain in his family are known as Shaivas, now called Shias (Shiites).
- An Ancient Sanskrit scripture known as "Harihareshwar Mahatmay has (a couplet) which mentions Lord Vishnu's holy foot prints to be at three main centres in the world, namely one in Gaya (India), the other in Mecca, and the third near Shukla Teertha. Thus today what Muslims treat as Mohammed's foot prints, are actually that of Lord Vishnu's.
Other Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions inside the Kaba walls, and what they are no body is allowed to study. - Namaz has its Sanskrit meaning as well, it is made of two Sanskrit letters nama and yaja, meaning to bow and worship.
V interesting, no?
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From (http//doormann.tripod.com/the0.htm)...
Kailash is the mountain of god Shiva, who is sitting there in eternal meditation with his wife Parvati.
Like in the Ka'bah in Mecca there is a tradition in Tibet to circumambulate something several times. This multiple 'Circumambulation' or 'Kora' around the Mt. Kailash - which is the home of Shiva, the Creator and Destroyer - is celebrated to a special date from the tibetian moon calendar, and a special 'spiritual cleaning or spiritual 'washing' (like the bath in the Ganges river) has a great meaning.http//doormann.tripod.com/kaailashpi.jpg
"Pilgrims at Circumambulation at the Mt. Kailash"V interesting, no?