Kaba Corruption
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Peace Natu,
I too vehemently was against the idea of physical prostration until I was given a sign that confirmed for me the verses which indicate that it is most certainly a way of reverencing the God.
17107 Proclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
17108 They say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
17109 They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
You may argue, but who prostrates on their chins now?
I don't think this is a command to prostrate on ones chin, but rather a description of what these people do/did. One may equally prostrate by placing one's head on the floor, or by lying face down completely prostrate as the term technically means. What matters is the humbling of the individual.
I disagree with a need for physical direction however; there is no authority for facing a physical direction from my understanding. All directions belong to God and that is what is clear both from the reading and from logic.
Regards.
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Peace Truth,
My personal understanding of the bit about the chins is that its the chins that fall!
Let me explain, firstly, this cannot possibly be anything to do with prostrating, becuase it looks like a bit of a funny way to prostrate.
Normally, you would get arrogant big timers walking the Earth with their heads up, but those who humbly submit, they have their heads lowered in humility to God, they are not proud of themselves. So technically, I see this verese as an excellent description of how people ought to appear, how a believer would look!
Is my understanding logical?
Perhaps we might want to add that verse (17109) to the following thread so it can be discussed systematically. Thanks Truth! (Have a look Truth, you might like the way things are going)...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
Look forward to seeing you there.
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Peace Natu,
Your understanding needs to be examined a little. If the verse were referring to the posture of believers' heads then it naturally leads to the question of why that position is important?
In fact the question must be... for whom is the head held low?
The head slumped position is a position of weakness assumed for the benefit of show or despondency. God never wants us to assume this position. If we show humility it must be in a direct and straightforward way.
6722 Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a straight road?
Be upright and be confident. There is no command to slump one's head to show humility. Humbleness is manifest in one's acts and speech more than their outward show.
The prostration of 17109 is not related to a show for men. It is a way of reverencing the tremendousness of God's blessings upon us. Some people get it, and some don't.
Regards.
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
(We'll discuss it with everyone together, my arabic isn't too good so i can't justify my understanding, we shall discuss at the above linked thread in due time, God willing.) For now, lets carry on finding out what people have to say about the kaba...
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Salaam,
You might try using the invisible web, which are specialized search engines with massive databases that you cannot excess via the visible web, such as google or yahoo.
Try using http//www.intelliseek.com/search.htm or http//dir.lycos.com/Reference/Searchable_Databases or http//www.profusion.com
I personally prefer the last one.
Joe
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Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
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I couldn't agree with you more, becuase we are never told to do 'physical sajda' - we are only ever told to submit. Not to prostrate.
Khi- I think u didnt understand me. Let me rephrase it
U mean 2 say tht submitting(Arabic =sajda) 2 anyone besides GOD is FINE, ALRIGHT whereas doing physical prostration(ANOTHER MEANING IF NOT THE PRIMARY OF the Arabic word 'sajda') ONLY 2wards, NOT 4, a particular direction WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok?How can you be physically prostrated while sitting down? Perhaps there's a reason why God made the Earth Spherical, to prove that we're not supposed to prostrate in the direction of the 'kaba'
Khi- Ofcourse u can be prostrated while sitting down too. Sunnis pray salat by sitting n they bow n prostrate their head on a table. Also sajda is ALWAYS DONE IN THE SITING POSITION. So whts ur pt? N ur 2nd pt doesnt make sense 4 i gave u the reasons already.
This is making no sense we're not told to prostrate to any throne, and God never told us to prostrate along the direction of walking. If the kaba is further than your horizon, then you cannot possibly face it, you'll always be facing out into space. Thats the reason why God made the Earth spherical.
Khi- This is the logical sesne of it in the Arabic language. It's a very old custom n has always been understood in this way. Therefore the horizon part makes no sense. It's the direction in which we walk tht we reach the kaaba which cnts.
OK, so do you you approve of the Jews wailing wall? - That's their idol! Just becuase the muslim idol is a lot larger and sculpted less ornately doesn't mean it is an idol. We need to be very careful, if we can even idolise our own egos, we can certainly idolise a sube shaped building made of stone.
Khi- If they expect tht the wall has some particular powers of forgiveness in it like the "Muslims" do with the black stone in the kaaba then tht is obviously wrong n idol worship. However if they only make the wall their Qiblah then it's perfectly fine. This depends entirely on the intentions. Didnt GOD tell the Jews in the Quran 2 make their homes their Qiblah
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into Qiblahs, and maintain the Contact Prayers (Salat). Give good news to the believers."It is not 'simply bricks', it is stone bricks, something God advises us not to set up as partners with him. God never commands prostrating to the 'kaba', and I never said that. Even a hindu prostrating towards a sculpture of Ganesh says that he/she is not prostrating to it, but prostrating in that direction along with the rest of the idolaters with him/her. The kaba is no different.
Khi- Stone/bricks r similar. Wht do u mean? No one sets those up as partners besides GOD. The "Muslims" only set up the black stone as a partner but thts a different issue. GOD does command 2 face the Masjidul Haraam in the Quran wherever we may be
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
N the following verse shows Masjudil Haraam is the Kaaba
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
So we see the clear relation n GOD's command 2 face it. The prostration is done only in tht direction NOT 2 it. Thts y i highlighted 2WARDS n NOT to it.Just becuase different valuesare given to it doesn't mean it is not an idol, we don't say that our egos can intercede for us, but they can still be our idols according to God. The 'kaba' can also most certainly be an idol if you prostrate towards it, even though it hasn't been considered as one for centuries. I hope I made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
Khi- As i said it depends not on wht we say but on wht our intentions r. N the Kaaba cannot be an idol just 4 turning our faces 2wards it wherever we r as commanded by GOD in the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Natu,
Most people have a tendency to attach themselves to a routine or a set of laws, and no matter what you do they will defend them even when sufficient evidence is produced. Or maybe they just don't understand.
This Qiblah and physical prayer issue is a VERY BIG ISSUE, clarity is needed or maybe is already here on this topic. I think it is a test to differentiate between those who believe and don't. My opinion aside, this is a big issue and must be dealt with thoroughly.
I personally disown all these ideas and objects associated with GOD because it makes no sense to me and I see no significance in these objects and ideas. They restrict and make the religion hard, God made it easy, let's go back to basics and stay there!
Peace Nural
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Peace brother idmkhizar
First you have to prove that Allah has commanded us to TURN OUR FACES IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM "WHILE PRAYING"
There was no MASJID in MECCA, let alone the MASJID AL HARAM.
According to the history of Islam, there was no MASJID around the KAABA and the area around KAABA was called MASJID AL HARAM.
In the absence of a structure how did the prophet turned his face in the direction of the OPEN PLACE
Since there is no word "SALAAT" in all the 8 verses, revealed in the context of the QIBLAH, your belief that it is a command to face MASJID AL HARAM while PRAYING is 100% CONJECTURE.
Allah never commanded the Prophet to face KAABA but MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed.
Remember the MASJID AL HARAM is the TRUTH from the Lord and the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK know it.
A structure built by mankind can never be the truth from Allah.
WUDIcA
Placed / setWas the cubic structure set or placed or built? Without doubt mankind built it and therefore it was not Allah WHO built the House, because Allah never BUILDS anything but CREATES FROM NOTHING and PLACES.
WA- ASHRAQAT AL- 'ARD. BI- NOR RABB -HAA WA- WUD.IcA AL- KITAAB WA- JE'A BI- AN- NABEYEN WA- ASH- SHUHADAA' WA- QUD.IYA BAYNA -HUM BI- AL- H.AQQ WA- HUM LAA YUZ.LAMON 3969
And the heaven He has raised high, and He has (WAD.AcA) SET up the Balance. 557
And the earth He has (WAD.AcA) PLACED for the creatures. 5510
And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be (WUD.IcA) PLACED (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged. 3969
the BAYT was PLACED / SET for MANKIND and not BUILT.
The BAYT is appointed FOR MANKIND but it is GUIDANCE FOR THE AALAMEN.
Is there anyone in the world who has been guided by the KAABA?
Verily the first House set apart unto mankind was that at Bakka, blest, and a GUIDANCE UNTO THE WORLDS. 396
A MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION
CAN THE KAABA GUIDE EVERYONE? (AALAMEN)
Thanks.
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PEACE ALL
The following ayats would appear to eliminate Ibrahim even being in the area of Mecca, because if he was there, then, there was a warner before Muhammad.
2846 And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful.
323 Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.
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peace all
priest just nailed it down there, wow...Im not going to argue against Allah
Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
Interresting, can you point me in direction of where i can look at this?
And what makes you conclude that?Some symbols have been around for as long as written history and properbly before, and they have allway meant the same thing, just they had various names. The celtic sun symbol is one bright example. It turned into the zodiac, that is still a circle with a cross, just with some extra fillings. The vikings refered to this particular symbol as "sol hjulet" (sunwheel), and it is the same thing it represents today, even though its name changed.
Language change but symbols have a way of preserving their meaning and function.
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From
http//www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1322985/postsThe translation of the word ?hell? is ge,enna (gheh'-en-nah) in Greek. This Greek word derives it meaning from the Hebrew word, ?Gehinam? which is a reference to the Valley belonging to Hinnam in the Old Testament. In both Joshua 158 and Nehemiah 1130 this valley is referenced and is the historical background to which Jesus points. In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it. The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue. You can imagine that a brass statue would become exceedingly hot, even to the point of glowing red as brass would with such a fire inside it continually. And what the Jews did was place one of their youngest children in the burning hands of this statue and sacrifice their children alive. Their children would be set in the fiery hot hands of this heated furnace and burned until dead, as if to cook them alive. In some twisted and warped fashion, the fathers thought that such a sacrifice to this god would bless the other children and their home. There was a continual fire in the idol and thus, a continual shrieking and crying could be heard from the sacrifices of passing their children through this fire. It is even recorded in some of the writings of the Puritans that the Jews continued to play music and ring bells to drown out the sounds of the shrieking and crying of their children. Such a thing is unimaginable but recorded in such passages as 2 Chr. 336; 2 Ks 163, Jer. 731; 3235; and Lev. 1821. It was not until righteous king Josiah came along that this place was destroyed as recorded in 2 Kings 2310. This is a grotesque and sick picture, however, it is the picture which Jesus is reminding the Jews about as he uses the term ?hell.? Hell is the place of continual fire and burning; a place of unending torture. Its analogical history is one of warped and twisted sin, but its reality is a cause to which the God of the universe should be feared, for He has the power to cast men into a real and literal hell.
I've read about this elsewhere too. Ahmed Ali actually mentions it in his translation of the Quran as well. Google 'Hinnam hell' or something like that for more.
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peace riz
In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it.
Here you have molec. Personally i belive the story of the golden calf to be connected. But the trail has led me to two places and im unsure wich is correct. Either it is a refference to molec, or it has to do with the zodiac and the sign of the bull.
http//home.planet.nl/~reijd050/grove/molech_examples.gif
The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue.
The idea of the eternal flame is an old pagan one. And the symbol is videly used still today.
Remember in the Quran there is more than one warning that the people of the book will do anything and not be pleased with us untill we return to their relegion. Well...I think thats what they are doing even today, through symbolism, and by that subliminal messaging.
The whole world is a wash with eternal flames, we need to step back and ask ourself. why?
from freerepublic.
http//www.users.bigpond.com/SCHIP/scans/Eternal_Flame.jpghttp//www.rendtheheavens.org/images/Thunder%20Bay/Novomuskovsk%20-%20eternal%20flame.JPG
http//photos.nondot.org/2002-04-20-Washington-DC/2002-04-22/normal/18%20-%20JFK%20Eternal%20Flame.jpghttp//thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/Eternal-Flame.jpg
large image of eternal flame at arc de triomphe.The funny thing is that it is always conected to other diety's, such as samiramis, diana, dagon, nimrod etc etc..
As for the link it was very interresting thank you, but i still fail to see why back enginering history makes the Quran manmade? Well it IS manmade in the sense that God did not write it, but inspire it to a human (is inspire the right word?). )
Im searching for the truth about things, i belive that God requires no less.
I do not claim to know it, nor do i claim that i ever will unless God wants me to. But there are a lot of things going on around us that simply doesnt make any sense unless you start to connect it to ancient worship of diety's that where in a lot of cases, representations of planetary movement.the names may differ, the functions ascribed to them doesnt.
regards
Noah