Kaba Corruption
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The possibility still exists that it wasn't built by Abraham too!
Khi- Salam. Yes n tht shld be our main focus. We can easily disprove the Kaaba in SAudi 2day is not the Masjidul Haraam n Al-Kaaba as mentioned in the Quran by showing tht these were NOT the names of tht place in Mecca BE4 THE TIME OF THE PROPHET. Tht wld mean ppl later adjusted the places names according 2 Quranic terms 2 suit them. Uptil now this has not been shown.
What I find interesting is the way you worded your post. 'Fell' into idolatry - isn't that exactly what people do when they fall prostrate to the kaba. But looking from far at the idea of prostrating to anything, be it a car or a building, their is something fishy going on... and considering the fact that we can even be idolising our own egos, I think we need to be very careful when we prostrate to something... thats my personal view anyway.
Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command. So is GOD commanding idol worship. Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship. Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat. Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless! -
Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command.
The angels except iblis, submitted to adam, they didn't prostrate to him, how would Adam benefit from that? The angels submitted becuase they were to help make the world work, like distribute the rain and wind, not to come to Earth and carry on prostrating to Adam.
Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship.So if someone is on a throne how can they prostrate? - the physics just don't work out my friend, they submitted to him by accepting what he was saying.
Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat.
This is the point where logic falters. Do we accept that a hindu prostrating to an idol of Ganesh (Elephant) - (see surah al-fil) is comitting idol worship. Now if you ask the hindu who does that, they won't say we see that this stone idol has power, we are only facing it! Thats is exactly the same with the kaba. Just becuase many of us are from from it and don't realise that we are prostrating to it, (whilst acrtually facing up into space), it doesn't mean that its a bigger idol soit the physical direction doesn't matter. In my view, the closer you get, the more you realise that it is idol worship, imaine what the person closest to a wall of the kaba would be feeling inside, when prostrating to it 'why am I doing this?' but whould probably carry on thinking God ordered us to prostrate to the idol.
Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless!
"Ofcourse prostrating to the black cube IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship." people prostrate to the kaba thinking they are doing a good thing, (i.e. with the hope to attain salvation). GOD Bless!
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The angels except iblis, submitted to adam, they didn't prostrate to him, how would Adam benefit from that? The angels submitted becuase they were to help make the world work, like distribute the rain and wind, not to come to Earth and carry on prostrating to Adam.
Khi- Salam. So u mean 2 say tht submitting 'sajda' 2 anyone besides GOD is ok while doing physical 'sajda' ONLY 2wards tht thing WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok? I think this doesnt make sense at all.
So if someone is on a throne how can they prostrate? - the physics just don't work out my friend, they submitted to him by accepting what he was saying.
Khi- The kings in the past used 2 be physically prosrated 2 while they sat on the throne. Otherwise how can we face the kaaba on a spherical earth? The pt is 2 take tht direction of walking in which we reach the thing 2 be prostrated. Similar is the case with the throne. We simply face the throne if the person is on it from the side where he climbs it, since walking tht direction wld lead us eventually up the throne n 2 the person.
This is the point where logic falters. Do we accept that a hindu prostrating to an idol of Ganesh (Elephant) - (see surah al-fil) is comitting idol worship. Now if you ask the hindu who does that, they won't say we see that this stone idol has power, we are only facing it!
Khi- Y else wld he face an elephant structure which is an image of a living being. Theres a lot of difference of facing a wall, bricks n cement or an image of living things. The latter obviously shows ulterior motives.
Thats is exactly the same with the kaba. Just becuase many of us are from from it and don't realise that we are prostrating to it, (whilst acrtually facing up into space), it doesn't mean that its a bigger idol soit the physical direction doesn't matter. In my view, the closer you get, the more you realise that it is idol worship, imaine what the person closest to a wall of the kaba would be feeling inside, when prostrating to it 'why am I doing this?' but whould probably carry on thinking God ordered us to prostrate to the idol.
Khi- As i said the kaaba is made in no image of any animated being. It is simply bricks. The only two reasons which wld come 2 mind while one is protrating 2WARDS NOT 2 it r 1) GOD commanded it as u rightly said so tht 2) there be discipline throughout.
"Ofcourse prostrating to the black cube IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship." people prostrate to the kaba thinking they are doing a good thing, (i.e. with the hope to attain salvation). GOD Bless!
Khi- Lemme rephrase my statment. Ppl believe tht the black stone has the power 2 forgive n they kiss it coz they think tht wld lead 2 their sins being forgiven. However nobody thinks abt forgiveness just by facing the kaaba. It is a command of GOD yes n a discplinary act which is supposed 2 promote unity. Hindus have no such concept of focus. They believe in intercession of their idols similar 2 tht of the black stone in the kaaba which r obviously wrong. I hope i made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
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Peace.
Khi- Salam. So u mean 2 say tht submitting 'sajda' 2 anyone besides GOD is ok while doing physical 'sajda' ONLY 2wards tht thing WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok? I think this doesnt make sense at all.
I couldn't agree with you more, becuase we are never told to do 'physical sajda' - we are only ever told to submit. Not to prostrate.
Khi- The kings in the past used 2 be physically prosrated 2 while they sat on the throne. Otherwise how can we face the kaaba on a spherical earth?
How can you be physically prostrated while sitting down? Perhaps there's a reason why God made the Earth Spherical, to prove that we're not supposed to prostrate in the direction of the 'kaba'
The pt is 2 take tht direction of walking in which we reach the thing 2 be prostrated. Similar is the case with the throne. We simply face the throne if the person is on it from the side where he climbs it, since walking tht direction wld lead us eventually up the throne n 2 the person.
This is making no sense we're not told to prostrate to any throne, and God never told us to prostrate along the direction of walking. If the kaba is further than your horizon, then you cannot possibly face it, you'll always be facing out into space. Thats the reason why God made the Earth spherical.
Khi- Y else wld he face an elephant structure which is an image of a living being. Theres a lot of difference of facing a wall, bricks n cement or an image of living things. The latter obviously shows ulterior motives.
OK, so do you you approve of the Jews wailing wall? - That's their idol! Just becuase the muslim idol is a lot larger and sculpted less ornately doesn't mean it is an idol. We need to be very careful, if we can even idolise our own egos, we can certainly idolise a sube shaped building made of stone.
Khi- As i said the kaaba is made in no image of any animated being. It is simply bricks. The only two reasons which wld come 2 mind while one is protrating 2WARDS NOT 2 it r 1) GOD commanded it as u rightly said so tht 2) there be discipline throughout.
It is not 'simply bricks', it is stone bricks, something God advises us not to set up as partners with him. God never commands prostrating to the 'kaba', and I never said that. Even a hindu prostrating towards a sculpture of Ganesh says that he/she is not prostrating to it, but prostrating in that direction along with the rest of the idolaters with him/her. The kaba is no different.
Khi- Lemme rephrase my statment. Ppl believe tht the black stone has the power 2 forgive n they kiss it coz they think tht wld lead 2 their sins being forgiven. However nobody thinks abt forgiveness just by facing the kaaba. It is a command of GOD yes n a discplinary act which is supposed 2 promote unity. Hindus have no such concept of focus. They believe in intercession of their idols similar 2 tht of the black stone in the kaaba which r obviously wrong. I hope i made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
Just becuase different valuesare given to it doesn't mean it is not an idol, we don't say that our egos can intercede for us, but they can still be our idols according to God. The 'kaba' can also most certainly be an idol if you prostrate towards it, even though it hasn't been considered as one for centuries. I hope I made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
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Peace Natu,
I too vehemently was against the idea of physical prostration until I was given a sign that confirmed for me the verses which indicate that it is most certainly a way of reverencing the God.
17107 Proclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
17108 They say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
17109 They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
You may argue, but who prostrates on their chins now?
I don't think this is a command to prostrate on ones chin, but rather a description of what these people do/did. One may equally prostrate by placing one's head on the floor, or by lying face down completely prostrate as the term technically means. What matters is the humbling of the individual.
I disagree with a need for physical direction however; there is no authority for facing a physical direction from my understanding. All directions belong to God and that is what is clear both from the reading and from logic.
Regards.
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Peace Truth,
My personal understanding of the bit about the chins is that its the chins that fall!
Let me explain, firstly, this cannot possibly be anything to do with prostrating, becuase it looks like a bit of a funny way to prostrate.
Normally, you would get arrogant big timers walking the Earth with their heads up, but those who humbly submit, they have their heads lowered in humility to God, they are not proud of themselves. So technically, I see this verese as an excellent description of how people ought to appear, how a believer would look!
Is my understanding logical?
Perhaps we might want to add that verse (17109) to the following thread so it can be discussed systematically. Thanks Truth! (Have a look Truth, you might like the way things are going)...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
Look forward to seeing you there.
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Peace Natu,
Your understanding needs to be examined a little. If the verse were referring to the posture of believers' heads then it naturally leads to the question of why that position is important?
In fact the question must be... for whom is the head held low?
The head slumped position is a position of weakness assumed for the benefit of show or despondency. God never wants us to assume this position. If we show humility it must be in a direct and straightforward way.
6722 Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a straight road?
Be upright and be confident. There is no command to slump one's head to show humility. Humbleness is manifest in one's acts and speech more than their outward show.
The prostration of 17109 is not related to a show for men. It is a way of reverencing the tremendousness of God's blessings upon us. Some people get it, and some don't.
Regards.
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
(We'll discuss it with everyone together, my arabic isn't too good so i can't justify my understanding, we shall discuss at the above linked thread in due time, God willing.) For now, lets carry on finding out what people have to say about the kaba...
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Salaam,
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Try using http//www.intelliseek.com/search.htm or http//dir.lycos.com/Reference/Searchable_Databases or http//www.profusion.com
I personally prefer the last one.
Joe
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Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
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I couldn't agree with you more, becuase we are never told to do 'physical sajda' - we are only ever told to submit. Not to prostrate.
Khi- I think u didnt understand me. Let me rephrase it
U mean 2 say tht submitting(Arabic =sajda) 2 anyone besides GOD is FINE, ALRIGHT whereas doing physical prostration(ANOTHER MEANING IF NOT THE PRIMARY OF the Arabic word 'sajda') ONLY 2wards, NOT 4, a particular direction WHILE SUBMITTING 2 GOD is not ok?How can you be physically prostrated while sitting down? Perhaps there's a reason why God made the Earth Spherical, to prove that we're not supposed to prostrate in the direction of the 'kaba'
Khi- Ofcourse u can be prostrated while sitting down too. Sunnis pray salat by sitting n they bow n prostrate their head on a table. Also sajda is ALWAYS DONE IN THE SITING POSITION. So whts ur pt? N ur 2nd pt doesnt make sense 4 i gave u the reasons already.
This is making no sense we're not told to prostrate to any throne, and God never told us to prostrate along the direction of walking. If the kaba is further than your horizon, then you cannot possibly face it, you'll always be facing out into space. Thats the reason why God made the Earth spherical.
Khi- This is the logical sesne of it in the Arabic language. It's a very old custom n has always been understood in this way. Therefore the horizon part makes no sense. It's the direction in which we walk tht we reach the kaaba which cnts.
OK, so do you you approve of the Jews wailing wall? - That's their idol! Just becuase the muslim idol is a lot larger and sculpted less ornately doesn't mean it is an idol. We need to be very careful, if we can even idolise our own egos, we can certainly idolise a sube shaped building made of stone.
Khi- If they expect tht the wall has some particular powers of forgiveness in it like the "Muslims" do with the black stone in the kaaba then tht is obviously wrong n idol worship. However if they only make the wall their Qiblah then it's perfectly fine. This depends entirely on the intentions. Didnt GOD tell the Jews in the Quran 2 make their homes their Qiblah
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into Qiblahs, and maintain the Contact Prayers (Salat). Give good news to the believers."It is not 'simply bricks', it is stone bricks, something God advises us not to set up as partners with him. God never commands prostrating to the 'kaba', and I never said that. Even a hindu prostrating towards a sculpture of Ganesh says that he/she is not prostrating to it, but prostrating in that direction along with the rest of the idolaters with him/her. The kaba is no different.
Khi- Stone/bricks r similar. Wht do u mean? No one sets those up as partners besides GOD. The "Muslims" only set up the black stone as a partner but thts a different issue. GOD does command 2 face the Masjidul Haraam in the Quran wherever we may be
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
N the following verse shows Masjudil Haraam is the Kaaba
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
So we see the clear relation n GOD's command 2 face it. The prostration is done only in tht direction NOT 2 it. Thts y i highlighted 2WARDS n NOT to it.Just becuase different valuesare given to it doesn't mean it is not an idol, we don't say that our egos can intercede for us, but they can still be our idols according to God. The 'kaba' can also most certainly be an idol if you prostrate towards it, even though it hasn't been considered as one for centuries. I hope I made myself clear this time. GOD Bless!
Khi- As i said it depends not on wht we say but on wht our intentions r. N the Kaaba cannot be an idol just 4 turning our faces 2wards it wherever we r as commanded by GOD in the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Natu,
Most people have a tendency to attach themselves to a routine or a set of laws, and no matter what you do they will defend them even when sufficient evidence is produced. Or maybe they just don't understand.
This Qiblah and physical prayer issue is a VERY BIG ISSUE, clarity is needed or maybe is already here on this topic. I think it is a test to differentiate between those who believe and don't. My opinion aside, this is a big issue and must be dealt with thoroughly.
I personally disown all these ideas and objects associated with GOD because it makes no sense to me and I see no significance in these objects and ideas. They restrict and make the religion hard, God made it easy, let's go back to basics and stay there!
Peace Nural
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Peace brother idmkhizar
First you have to prove that Allah has commanded us to TURN OUR FACES IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM "WHILE PRAYING"
There was no MASJID in MECCA, let alone the MASJID AL HARAM.
According to the history of Islam, there was no MASJID around the KAABA and the area around KAABA was called MASJID AL HARAM.
In the absence of a structure how did the prophet turned his face in the direction of the OPEN PLACE
Since there is no word "SALAAT" in all the 8 verses, revealed in the context of the QIBLAH, your belief that it is a command to face MASJID AL HARAM while PRAYING is 100% CONJECTURE.
Allah never commanded the Prophet to face KAABA but MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed.
Remember the MASJID AL HARAM is the TRUTH from the Lord and the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK know it.
A structure built by mankind can never be the truth from Allah.
WUDIcA
Placed / setWas the cubic structure set or placed or built? Without doubt mankind built it and therefore it was not Allah WHO built the House, because Allah never BUILDS anything but CREATES FROM NOTHING and PLACES.
WA- ASHRAQAT AL- 'ARD. BI- NOR RABB -HAA WA- WUD.IcA AL- KITAAB WA- JE'A BI- AN- NABEYEN WA- ASH- SHUHADAA' WA- QUD.IYA BAYNA -HUM BI- AL- H.AQQ WA- HUM LAA YUZ.LAMON 3969
And the heaven He has raised high, and He has (WAD.AcA) SET up the Balance. 557
And the earth He has (WAD.AcA) PLACED for the creatures. 5510
And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be (WUD.IcA) PLACED (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged. 3969
the BAYT was PLACED / SET for MANKIND and not BUILT.
The BAYT is appointed FOR MANKIND but it is GUIDANCE FOR THE AALAMEN.
Is there anyone in the world who has been guided by the KAABA?
Verily the first House set apart unto mankind was that at Bakka, blest, and a GUIDANCE UNTO THE WORLDS. 396
A MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION
CAN THE KAABA GUIDE EVERYONE? (AALAMEN)
Thanks.