Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.
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I am sorry, but if I have to read a hundred pages long diatribe as to why daraba means anything else other than beating then it only proves that traditionalists are correct in regards to 434. Explanation must be easy and sound, not a hundred pages long "interpretation" and a game with word-root play.
Woeful reply.
Ironically, your dismissal of my arguments is likeable to Sam's response to your arguments (i.e. dismissed without analysis, thus baseless and illogical). Hypocrisy in action.
Regarding your diatribe against Sam Gerrans, sorry but I choose not to respond to personal theories.
http//static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111345/3162370-tumblr_m5poz8mwre1rxhbuao1_250.jpg
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I am sorry, but if I have to read a hundred pages long diatribe as to why daraba means anything else other than beating then it only proves that traditionalists are correct in regards to 434. Explanation must be easy and sound, not a hundred pages long "interpretation" and a game with word-root play.
If you happen to open the Quran for the first time. You know nothing about 434. You don't know anything about traditionalists or reformists, you just happen to open the book. What will you see in 434? Exactly. You will not have all these interpretive appendices that you and Mazhar cited here, you will just read it . And my argumentation at least comes from reason.
Read part 4 the summary with conclusion it's not hundred pages.
Also I don't get your "read as is" reasoning. If you happen to open the book and read what it says it's all subject to your understanding of the word in the socio-cultural context of how it is used, you can't escape bias. For example the word "hijab" is often used to mean headscarf, it never used to be so droned in to mean that. People used to use other words more commonly such as esharb and tarha. Today Non-Muslims use the term hijab to mean headscarf. So if I open the book and see the word hijab if I take your as is approach then I believe there would be flaws.
I'd imagine Sam Gerrans gets alot of criticism it's a shame he didn't take you seriously but I guess you didn't provide an alternative theory just a disagreement.
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Woeful reply.
Ironically, your dismissal of my arguments is likeable to Sam's response to your arguments (i.e. dismissed without analysis, thus baseless and illogical). Hypocrisy in action.
Regarding your diatribe against Sam Gerrans, sorry but I choose not to respond to personal theories.
So apparently sending funny images is your primary argument? In regards to my 'diatribe' which is just a few lines long, compared to the link you have provided which demands a vast amount of time to be invested to understand the author's research to justify his cite instead of beat argument, I am sorry, I will stick to reason rather than personal novels.
I did read some of it though, while its argument around divorce and authority sounds more or less intact, it's main focus surrounding the root drb is just something which only proves my initial conclusion on the subject - the explanation should be simple, as simple as a few line shorts. It's either black or white, there is nothing in the middle. I refuse to speculate further, because I reject the traditions and hadiths, unlike yourself who clearly ceases to follow one tradition but turns to other traditions .
To see how your own diatribes are similar to hadiths, open any traditional explanation of controversial verses or hadiths - clergymen write similar diatribes so as to justify this or the other and I am supposed to believe it? Why not explain it simple in a few lines, as I do instead of writing novels based on somebody's else research? Again, if I happen to open the Qur'an for the first time I won't have all these appendices with me. If I happen to read Qur'an in the prison, I won't have all these unnecessary appendices with me.
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Read part 4 the summary with conclusion it's not hundred pages.
Also I don't get your "read as is" reasoning. If you happen to open the book and read what it says it's all subject to your understanding of the word in the socio-cultural context of how it is used, you can't escape bias. For example the word "hijab" is often used to mean headscarf, it never used to be so droned in to mean that. People used to use other words more commonly such as esharb and tarha. Today Non-Muslims use the term hijab to mean headscarf. So if I open the book and see the word hijab if I take your as is approach then I believe there would be flaws.
I'd imagine Sam Gerrans gets alot of criticism it's a shame he didn't take you seriously but I guess you didn't provide an alternative theory just a disagreement.
First of all, there is nothing scary or 'bad' about hijab as a headscarf, it's way better than if a woman sprays strong perfume all other her body so that I know she is passing by a kilometer before I can actually see her. You can't reject modesty in Qur'an. What is 'bad', however, is a black bag which women are forced to wear in some parts of the world. So I frankly do not understand all the Qur'an alone hysteria over hijab. If she wants she can wear it and still look good and modest at the same time. Plus the hijab does not have to look like arabic headscarf, it can be a stylish hat. You can check Valeriya Porohova - she is an author of the Qur'an translation in Russia.
Secondly, I was talking more about people who originate from Arabic familes and speak Arabic at home. The links people provided here imply that I should learn or study Arabic myself otherwise I won't be able to make sure that what is written there in regards to the translation of root dbr is actually true. In fact, I still struggle to find the same roots in Qur'anic verses when I try to do my own research because I can barely read Arabic. It takes a while. And I only believe somethign I can personally experience. My argumentation is based on reason only not a novel long diatribe which implies I need to accept it. I don't even know if the author of the 'novel' is Arabic himself.
So if a person fluent in Arabic reads the Qur'an what will he see in 434? I have personally seen people who claim to be from Arabic families and countries and translate certain verses not the way traditionalists translate them. I also know that many Arabs despite knowing the language do not understand the Qur'an. Therefore, I believe the logical apporach is more important rather than the diatribe based on the root research.
Now, regarding the Sam Gerran's, I suggest you read my message to him once again. It is clear that I lean towards reformist translation of the term in 434 for a number of reasons, which are based on Sam Gerran's findings, but also my own observation. Beat in the context just does not make sense for a number of numbered points.
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Never said anything was scary or bad about hijab nor was I rejecting modesty. I was simply letting you know how meanings can develop and morph - this is my view coming from an Arabic speaking background. Besides you have pointed out people who are fluent in Arabic can translate certain verses differently.
I re-read your post I now see your stance is that ?leave? is the best suited translation in counteracting the beat interpretation. Thing is the verse mentions steps to take from ?fear of ill conduct?, so based on your logical understanding, what kind of leave is it?
Root system just helps people understand basic meanings of words. After all, words have an etymology and not everyone is a walking dictionary/encyclopedia. Just like one would read a word they are unfamiliar with in English, people use dictionaries to help understand. I don't see the big deal in the equivalent in other languages.
Peace
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Never said anything was scary or bad about hijab nor was I rejecting modesty. I was simply letting you know how meanings can develop and morph - this is my view coming from an Arabic speaking background. Besides you have pointed out people who are fluent in Arabic can translate certain verses differently.
I re-read your post I now see your stance is that ?leave? is the best suited translation in counteracting the beat interpretation. Thing is the verse mentions steps to take from ?fear of ill conduct?, so based on your logical understanding, what kind of leave is it?
Root system just helps people understand basic meanings of words. After all, words have an etymology and not everyone is a walking dictionary/encyclopedia. Just like one would read a word they are unfamiliar with in English, people use dictionaries to help understand. I don't see the big deal in the equivalent in other languages.
Peace
My stance on leave vs beat here is specifically based on Sam Gerrans's interpretation of 434. I asked him to review his interpretation because it does not make sense, as it is a subject to numerous questions, including mine. If he claims his Last Revelation is the way he needs to further elaborate on 434 as it is arguably the most important verse , as I exlained in one of my later messages on Facebook . What he is basing his argument on is Eastern Orthodox 'Domostroi', which is the same as if he said "Look, all traditional hadiths use 'beat your wives' so why do I have to translate it any other way?"
In case proposing anything, especially based on his so-called "pan-textual analysis", I strongly believe he has to base his findings on Quran alone and not take examples of traditional Christian books of conduct.
Again, I see nothing "ubnormal" in wives being beat by men throughout the history. I can even admit that some wives deserve to be beaten (but then again, why marry one in the first place in case she is the one from whom you fear !?). My standpoint here is specifically based on finding the truth in the Quran. I studied his translation until I have reached his stance on 434 which I totally failed to accept, given his dubious methodology in this one. And after a brief "conversation" with him on Facebook I decided to completely abandon anything related to Sam Gerrans, as I now consider him a hypocrite. But that's me.
Regarding the languages, semitic one's are especially focused on roots rather than words themselves, that is why it is complex for me to just research Arabic definitions, given complexity of semitic letters themselves for someone who comes from other than Arabic background, compared to if I would just look for German words, for instance, or any other Germanic language.
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Also,relying on anyone s translation to agree with yours is futile, Why?
Because no matter what others say,our job is to check all the details and agree with some,disagree with some or disagree with most or disagree completely with all.The fact remains humans are interpreting GOD s words. Humans means background,issues,traditions,bias,ego...etc. Who has not got issues,including messengers and Nabis.?
Agree to disagree and move on to keep going searching for your truth. Only GOD and His words are perfection.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
you can have your own understanding of things but you don't have to bash on the guy.
Everyone has his/her own views on hypocrisy. I expressed mine. And I believe people who consider themselves Quran alone believers should know about his true personality. If you do not consider him a hypocrite, that's fine with me. As I said in my post - in no way I am asking anybody to abandon his translation. I did so because I have reasons to do so based on Sam's personality and actions . I regret studying his work.
Irony is how he translated the beggining of the 434 - And those from whom you fear haughtiness. Well, thats he who is haughty towards others, based on his "responses" on social media. Such people will never deserve my attention let alone support.
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Also,relying on anyone s translation to agree with yours is futile, Why?
Because no matter what others say,our job is to check all the details and agree with some,disagree with some or disagree with most or disagree completely with all.The fact remains humans are interpreting GOD s words. Humans means background,issues,traditions,bias,ego...etc. Who has not got issues,including messengers and Nabis.?
Agree to disagree and move on to keep going searching for your truth. Only GOD and His words are perfection.
GOD bless.
Peace.Peace,
This thead is not about his work, except for 434 which is biased in my own opinion. It is notably about Sam Gerrans. It is not my intention to slander Gerrans, but to show others. For those of similar views, they will make their own conclusions. If he can't discuss something about his own work with his own followers, block them but then keeps sending his video without giving a chance to further discuss on the issue - he is worse than those fascistic 'psycopaths' about which he writes his articles and often makes videos.
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well, you gotta give him some credits for making an entire video so that people (like yourself) are discouraged from sending him their theories and try to convince him with it. There must be thousands of people doing that.
and obviously his translation is his translation, and his project, and so are his videos. people who are interested in it can buy it. No one is forcing anyone. His stuff has his name all over it. What do you even expect from him? You got your merch lol
even if you think that he didn't handle the situation in the best possible way (debatable), it doesn't make him a hypocrite, or 'someone worth calling out'. people make mistakes.
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well, you gotta give him some credits for making an entire video so that people (like yourself) are discouraged from sending him their theories and try to convince him with it. There must be thousands of people doing that.
and obviously his translation is his translation, and his project, and so are his videos. people who are interested in it can buy it. No one is forcing anyone. His stuff has his name all over it. What do you even expect from him? You got your merch lol
even if you think that he didn't handle the situation in the best possible way (debatable), it doesn't make him a hypocrite, or 'someone worth calling out'. people make mistakes.
Again, if you fail to see hypocrisy in what he does, based on his attitude towards the elite , but then acts in the same snobish and fascistic manner after I ask him to once again review his 434 because it has flaws, to say the least - that's completely fine by me. I am not insisting that everyone should abandon his work. I did. Everybody chooses his/her own actions, I just hope these are wise actions everyone takes.
If he blocks people to debate with him on his own work, by challenging others to write similar works, this is simply pathetic. His own work is not blocked, it is out there, released .
Another part of his notalbe hypocrisy is him asking for money , but does not tell as to what his project is going to be https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcSbQliAeXg
So people according to him are 'doers' if they invest into something they have no clue about? Ridiculous. This and mostly the latest actions related to my experience with him made me conclude on the subject. Again, I am not asking anyone to have the same attitude towards him as I do. Read his work, invest into him, get blocked by him if you disagree - whatever.
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Peace Makaveli.
I get your point and you are right to highlight the injustice/ban.My aim /intend is not to criticise but advise that nobody should follow/rely on others.
Everyone should pick what is best from others or leave altogether.
Of course if anyone wants to follow/rely on anyone they are free to do so. This is in general,not intended for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
It still funny that only after your incident with him that you somehow woke up from your illusion. And he somehow turned into that terrible hypocrite bad guy.
Illussion of what? It was first time of me reading his work, after which I decided to contact him, since he was friended with me on Facebook. As the message suggests, it was quite surprising to find out his translation of 434, but honestly I also felt this way since no previous attempts at translating it in a liberal manner convinced me enough.
But his own interpretation is flawed, to say the least, it can be easily observed once you read my points. I bet anyone can easily make up some points against his interpretation (in case one reads it of course, and familiarizes himself with Sam's 434). So my point was I'd rather use reformist translation of 434 and I asked him to review this because his assumptions are based on dubious sources of research. Just because he made a huge work , does not mean he has to abandon any outside attempts at pointing out probable mistakes of his, in the same manner fascists and traditionalists abandon any attempts .
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Peace Makaveli.
I get your point and you are right to highlight the injustice/ban.My aim /intend is not to criticise but advise that nobody should follow/rely on others.
Everyone should pick what is best from others or leave altogether.
Of course if anyone wants to follow/rely on anyone they are free to do so. This is in general,not intended for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.That is exactly my point, thank you brother. Peace.
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Irony is how he translated the beggining of the 434 - And those from whom you fear haughtiness.
Peace ? was he consistent?
434 ... thou fearing nushza-hunna/recalcitrant theirs (feminine pl.)
4128 and if woman fear she from husband hers nushz-an/recalcitrant ofLikewise ?in context? what do you think it means?
434 ? wa-arib-hunna/and ??? ye them (feminine pl.)
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
signifies, (S, Msb,) or signifies also, (TA,) and (Msb, TA) so does , (Msb, K, TA,) (assumed tropical) He turned away from, avoided, shunned, or left, him, or it; (S * Msb, K * TA; *) namely, a person, (TA,) or a thing.
(tropical) He disposed, or accommodated, and subjected, himself to such a thing, or such an affair.
signifies also (tropical) He was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground
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Explanation must be easy and sound, not a hundred pages long "interpretation" and a game with word-root play.
Just read the semantic components of English verb "strike" the meanings of Arabic verb will become explicit. I have already given the link which incorporates its usage in Qur'aan.
