Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited
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Salam alihawa.
With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.
Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.
Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this
494 O! Those who have put faith ? when you set forth in God?s path then clarify and do not say to those who offer you peace, ?You are not a faithful? seeking (mere) trifle of the life of the world ? then there are larger booties with God. That?s how you used to be from before. Then God favored upon you ? so clarify. Indeed of how you act - God happens to be All-aware.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?
May Allah guide us to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
salam arman,
With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.
so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?
do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."
you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.
please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.
even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.
sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.
Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this
Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?
May Allah guide us to the straight way.
Regards,
Armani think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.
it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.
do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?
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Salam alihawa.
With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.
Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.
Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this
Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?
May Allah guide us to the straight way.
Regards,
ArmanInteresting.
RED Yes. I would say that dismissing others as having wrong faith is generally the ego (which is part of the flesh (through mind and brain)) trying to defend itself against things (ideas) that it perceives as a threat to its existence. This happens when we have come under the illusion that we are parts of the world like ideas, religions, professions, gender, ethnicity etc. We identify with these things, these ideas. We create a mental construct out of various building blocks such as religion (etc), and then fool ourselves into believing that this is us. The ego obviously goes into defencive mode when its religion (for example) is questioned, because it is perceived as its very existence is at stake. In a way its existence is indeed threatened, because when our identity is only made up of ideas (religions etc) then what else can the ego think? Obviously, the issue is that we associate things with ourselves that are not us. Like we should not associate stuff with God, so we should also not associate stuff with ourselves.
If your mind feels it has to label others are "them" and "wrong", then your perception is very unholistic... which in turn means that it is blinded by this Earthly world. Like you say, faith can be a double edged sword, and the problem is that we can not see in what direction it is currently cutting, especially when it is cutting in the wrong way. Blind is blind. But the blind is dead sure of being seeing, ironically.
Also, this explains why people get so heated up and angry when debating things like religion, politics and ethnicity. The reason is that we have built an identity our of these packages of ideas. But is our soul made up of religion, politics and ethnicity? No. Perhaps we ought to reconsider our own very essence then.
I found it very interesting to learn about the quranic connection between the need of labeling others as unfaithful, and seeking worldy gain. It makes total sense.
Kind regards
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salam arman,
so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?
do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?For better or worse my intellect is all that my Master has given me to work with and I?ll live or die based on what I understand making the most sincere us of the sense of right and wrong that my Master has bestowed me. If I consider myself incapable and inadequate and hence blindly follow a scholar or even a book, I would be associating partner with my Master. I seek refuge to my Master for being among the ignorant.
this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.Good at least you recognized that this is a ?translation?. I do not agree to the above translation which translates amana billahi as ?believe in God? rather than as ?have faith in God?. The difference is vast and the implications are far reaching. This is how I translate this verse
262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."
you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.
please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.
I am not adding anything ? what Qur?an says is clearly out there ? I have provided the supporting verses and proofs which you say you don?t understand. I just shared with you my understanding? and my reasoning? accepting or rejecting is up to you.
even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.These are generic verses. I understand Iman as ?Faith? (as in I am faithful to my Master), you understand iman as believing. I see clear indications in Qur?an that the term Iman CANNOT mean ?believing? and I have shared such proofs in this very thread. Our debate is not about what the Qur'an says in Arabic - our debate is about the meaning and understanding thereof. We each can blame the other for attributing falsehood about God - but the true interpretation is only with God. Let us leave the matter to God then?
sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.
Any specific item I can help with?
i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.
it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.
do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?
It is not as simple as disregard them. Qur?an gives different treatment for the mu?min and kafir in terms of legal retribution ? for example in case of murder. We need to understand whom can we label as kafir and whom we cannot to correctly apply these rules. Besides in a globalized world we increasingly have to interact with people of non-religious background as our classmates, teachers, neighbors, employers and coworkers. We need clear understanding of whom we can earmark as kafir and whom we cannot.
I submit to my Master who runs the universe with Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice ? not to the God portrayed by any Book. The book (Qur?an) is not but a wise reminder. It is only the mercy of my Master that He helped me to see His signs in this book. Indeed I have faced my face to the One who framed the heavens and earth in precision and I am not among the ones associating partners with Him.
Guidance is only with my Master, He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.
Regards,
Arman -
FINAL STATEMENT
ALLAH explicitly spells out the answer to the OP in many ways in His Quran.
ALLAH defines who muh'minun are not the OP.
82-4
82 Innama almu/minoona allatheena itha thukira Allahu wajilat quloobuhum wa-itha tuliyat AAalayhim ayatuhu zadat-hum eemanan waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona
83 Allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wamimma razaqnahum yunfiqoona
84 Ola-ika humu almu/minoona haqqan lahum darajatun AAinda rabbihim wamaghfiratun warizqun kareemun82 Only the believers (are) those who when Allah is mentioned feel fear their hearts, and when are recited to them His Verses, they increase them (in) faith, and upon their Lord they put their trust.
83 Those who establish the prayer and out of what We have provided them they spend.
84 Those - they are the believers (in) truth. For them (are) ranks with their Lord and forgiveness and a provision noble. -
Allah's Covenant with mankind is pretty clear there are no grey areas unlike what is proposed by the OP.
735-36
735 Ya banee adama imma ya/tiyannakum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee famani ittaqa waaslaha fala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona
736 Waallatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina waistakbaroo AAanha ola-ika as-habu alnnari hum feeha khalidoona735 O Children (of) Adam! If come to you Messengers from you relating to you My Verses, then whoever fears Allah, and reforms, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.
736 But those who deny Our Verses and (are) arrogant towards them those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it will abide forever. -
Belief is not as easy as people would think, just look around you!
If you are a believer, then in my understanding; one must have belief in
the Sustainer - l-qaymu (God),
the Sustainer - is the only judge (l-fatu),
the Sustainer - is the only guide (yahdī.
To whom one must have complete trust and reliance on, and call upon. (755, 4060)
This is nurtured by; One God consciousness, (yattaqna)
Learned through; reading the Qur'an (iq'ra). 96 1-6
Practiced by; doing acts of righteousness, following and implementing God's l-dni (system).
mn (Belief) is paramount to understanding the Qur'an, as it is written for the believers/God concious (lil'muttaqna), the rightly guided ones (muh'tadna), thus can only be understood by the sincere ones (l-mukh'lana).Please read srat l-nr (The Light) 2434-36 sun
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Amin means confidence/security/faith/trust in something. It does not mean believe/think/suppose, that stands for.
Primarily, a person should have faith in their own being, and called self-confidence in English.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace All,
I am wondering if anyone can point out a single instance in quran of the word "amina" or its derivatives being used in relation to the preposition meaning "in" rather than "with".
Imraan
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Amin means confidence/security/faith/trust in something. It does not mean believe/think/suppose, that stands for.
Primarily, a person should have faith in their own being, and called self-confidence in English.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelFaith, trust, security, are all part of belief.
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Faith, trust, security, are all part of belief.
Make sure it is not blind for Allah/God (SWTY) does not tolerate blind faith. Salamun Alaykum dear sister of Mankind. group
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Make sure it is not blind for Allah/God (SWTY) does not tolerate blind faith. Salamun Alaykum dear sister of Mankind. group
peace bravo handshake
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Peace All,
I am wondering if anyone can point out a single instance in quran of the word "amina" or its derivatives being used in relation to the preposition meaning "in" rather than "with".
Imraan
Groan! Now I feel compelled to answer your passive aggressive comment! "FAITH in" does that sound better! All the same, belief in God is my point, if you don't believe, then how can you have faith? voodoo
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Faith, trust, security, are all part of belief.
There are two different aspects of the same group of words.
There is one meaning which is to think or suppose something to be correct. The Arabic counterpart is Za Nun Nun.
There is another meaning which is to feel secure or safe, e.g. someone is self-confident. The Arabic counterpart is Alif Miim Nun.
In Arabic the two aspects use completely different roots so there cannot be a confusion like in English. A'min signifies when a person is confident as in "secure at heart". You cannot think or suppose something to be true with A'min but there has to be an absolute peace at heart.
The problem in English is that both words faith and believe are ambiguous in meaning, so they can mean that you think or suppose something to be correct. You cannot merely believe God to exist and use the word Amin in Arabic because it is too weak confidence. When you have amin this means confidence without doubt.
Also, if unspecified in discourse, amin alone refers to one's self-confidence primarily, it is to talk about the integrity of a person and how safe and secure they feel.
For this reason, amin is often left untranslated in texts because they doubt themselves how to translate the word properly into another.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace All,
I am wondering if anyone can point out a single instance in quran of the word "amina" or its derivatives being used in relation to the preposition meaning "in" rather than "with".
Imraan
The preposition Be is difficult to directly translate into English and have it make sense. But "amin b'Allah" means something more like "confidence with Allah" than "confidence in Allah", i.e. the traditional understanding of Allah makes it sound a little silly. So it is like "your Amin (confidence) is with Allah". It has to do more with trust than believing, like you are relying on Allah and the power of Allah. As mentioned, the strongest connotation is safety and security, the feeling of "peace at heart" because you know the power of Allah is potent and is with you and therefore you have no doubt.
What is important however, is to know what Allah is as a phenomenon, but that I will not delve into on this forum. I tried to help you with the word Amin in conjunction with the "beh" preposition.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
peace
I was not talking about what we think or feel. I am speaking about something that only a believer would experience. Call it the English Belief, Security, Peace, Guidance, Trust, Reliance, Servitude all have the flavour of what I am trying to convey. You must KNOW that God exists with doubt, if not then belief, faith, confidence, trust, safety, security etc... in God has not entered the heart.
4914 "The Desert-Arabs say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed yet; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds. God is Ever Forgiving and Merciful-to-all." (Safi Kaskas)
jedi
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Don't worry about some of the comments they are just playing semantics.
peace
I noticed! Thank you for the support, I was starting to feel quite violent! voodoo I felt like I needed the Free-Minds Forum version of the Oxford English Dictionary, as my copy was rendered Gobbledy Goop! jedi
