Kaba Corruption
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peace all
priest just nailed it down there, wow...Im not going to argue against Allah
Did you know that the word Jahannam (hell) actually comes from the the valley of Hannam in Israel? Human sacrfices used to be made there in the ancient days. So according to your guys logic so far, the Quran is actually man made and mixes pagan and jewish history into it.
Interresting, can you point me in direction of where i can look at this?
And what makes you conclude that?Some symbols have been around for as long as written history and properbly before, and they have allway meant the same thing, just they had various names. The celtic sun symbol is one bright example. It turned into the zodiac, that is still a circle with a cross, just with some extra fillings. The vikings refered to this particular symbol as "sol hjulet" (sunwheel), and it is the same thing it represents today, even though its name changed.
Language change but symbols have a way of preserving their meaning and function.
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From
http//www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1322985/postsThe translation of the word ?hell? is ge,enna (gheh'-en-nah) in Greek. This Greek word derives it meaning from the Hebrew word, ?Gehinam? which is a reference to the Valley belonging to Hinnam in the Old Testament. In both Joshua 158 and Nehemiah 1130 this valley is referenced and is the historical background to which Jesus points. In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it. The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue. You can imagine that a brass statue would become exceedingly hot, even to the point of glowing red as brass would with such a fire inside it continually. And what the Jews did was place one of their youngest children in the burning hands of this statue and sacrifice their children alive. Their children would be set in the fiery hot hands of this heated furnace and burned until dead, as if to cook them alive. In some twisted and warped fashion, the fathers thought that such a sacrifice to this god would bless the other children and their home. There was a continual fire in the idol and thus, a continual shrieking and crying could be heard from the sacrifices of passing their children through this fire. It is even recorded in some of the writings of the Puritans that the Jews continued to play music and ring bells to drown out the sounds of the shrieking and crying of their children. Such a thing is unimaginable but recorded in such passages as 2 Chr. 336; 2 Ks 163, Jer. 731; 3235; and Lev. 1821. It was not until righteous king Josiah came along that this place was destroyed as recorded in 2 Kings 2310. This is a grotesque and sick picture, however, it is the picture which Jesus is reminding the Jews about as he uses the term ?hell.? Hell is the place of continual fire and burning; a place of unending torture. Its analogical history is one of warped and twisted sin, but its reality is a cause to which the God of the universe should be feared, for He has the power to cast men into a real and literal hell.
I've read about this elsewhere too. Ahmed Ali actually mentions it in his translation of the Quran as well. Google 'Hinnam hell' or something like that for more.
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peace riz
In this valley owned by Hinnam, the idolatrous Jews setup a statue of Molech; a foreign god of the neighboring peoples. This large statue was in the form of a man with his hands stretched out before him, his palms being turned up ? as if he was going to receive something. Now this statue, made of brass, and hollow out, was stoked with wood and a fire was kindled in it.
Here you have molec. Personally i belive the story of the golden calf to be connected. But the trail has led me to two places and im unsure wich is correct. Either it is a refference to molec, or it has to do with the zodiac and the sign of the bull.
http//home.planet.nl/~reijd050/grove/molech_examples.gif
The fire was kindled continually so that sacrifices could be offered in the hands of this statue.
The idea of the eternal flame is an old pagan one. And the symbol is videly used still today.
Remember in the Quran there is more than one warning that the people of the book will do anything and not be pleased with us untill we return to their relegion. Well...I think thats what they are doing even today, through symbolism, and by that subliminal messaging.
The whole world is a wash with eternal flames, we need to step back and ask ourself. why?
from freerepublic.
http//www.users.bigpond.com/SCHIP/scans/Eternal_Flame.jpghttp//www.rendtheheavens.org/images/Thunder%20Bay/Novomuskovsk%20-%20eternal%20flame.JPG
http//photos.nondot.org/2002-04-20-Washington-DC/2002-04-22/normal/18%20-%20JFK%20Eternal%20Flame.jpghttp//thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/Eternal-Flame.jpg
large image of eternal flame at arc de triomphe.The funny thing is that it is always conected to other diety's, such as samiramis, diana, dagon, nimrod etc etc..
As for the link it was very interresting thank you, but i still fail to see why back enginering history makes the Quran manmade? Well it IS manmade in the sense that God did not write it, but inspire it to a human (is inspire the right word?). )
Im searching for the truth about things, i belive that God requires no less.
I do not claim to know it, nor do i claim that i ever will unless God wants me to. But there are a lot of things going on around us that simply doesnt make any sense unless you start to connect it to ancient worship of diety's that where in a lot of cases, representations of planetary movement.the names may differ, the functions ascribed to them doesnt.
regards
Noah -
Guys we've got some fresh kit about Zam Zam, from...
http//www.vinnomot.com/SKhan/HolyWater.htmI would recommend that it is read with an open mind - (may be found offensive)
Once upon a time there was a prophet. His name was Abraham. He had two wives, Sara and Hagar. First wife Sara did not have any children but Hagar gave birth to Ismail, who became another prophet of the World Series. Abraham was unemployed and Allah did not send the social security check to time. The triple had no money to buy milk or water for the newly born son. So Abraham sent Hagar and her newborn son hundreds of miles away and abandoned them in the middle of the desert. When Hagar was running between the hills of Safa and Marwa in the search of water with an empty feeding bottle, baby Ismail became impatient and kicked the sand. Hurray! A pool of water surfaced and shaped itself into a well, the famous holy hole that will be called Zam Zam.
Muhammad, the quack doctor used to sprinkle the holy water of Zam Zam on sick people and make them drink the same. Since then, Zam Zam water became the holy water for Muslims. Every year, Muslims from all over the world visit Mecca and dance around the black cubicle. Pilgrims drink from Zam Zam to purify their souls and supposedly be cured from any disease that they may have. They also rub their noses and clean the wax of their ear with this holy water, a process called ablution or wuduu. Upon receiving the certificate of Al-Haj, they collect a bottle of Zam Zam water that will be used as medicine when they return home. They also dip their future burial clothes in the Zam Zam.
The Ganges River, also known as Ganga of Indian sub-continent that runs for 1560 miles from Himalayas to the ocean is more than just flowing water. When Hindus take a bath in this holy river, their sins are washed away. Their souls become pure by touching the water of Ganges or by consuming it. Obviously, Hindus call this river, savior of this world.
There are many conflicting and confusing stories regarding the origin of Ganga. According to Valmiki's Ramayana, Ganga was the daughter of Himalaya and Menaka. Himalaya is a mountain, whereas Menaka was a nymph and a nymphomaniac as well. Menaka cheated her husband and disappeared with her boyfriend Vishwamitra. During Menakas absence, her daughter Ganga was forced to live in a vessel. Menaka had good connections with other gods. According to Krittivas' Ramayana, the deities wanted Ganga to marry Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva was a very powerful god and as handsome as Elvis Presley. Until today, Hindu women worship the private part of Lord Shivas body. Anyway, Menaka called Gangas cell phone but no response! She called all of Gangas friends but none had a clue. Being unable to find Ganga, Menaka cursed Ganga to attain the form of water.
In an oasis, a small pond with a continuous supply of water may be a geological wonder but not a miracle. Yet Muslims believe, Zam Zam is a miracle because it never runs out of water. There are many natural wonders in this world that follow natures rule and Geyser is one of them. Geysers are hot springs that erupt hot, steaming water, sometimes at random and sometimes at a regular interval of time. The eruption of water stays for 1-20 minutes and it may go as high as 200 ft. There are several geysers in the Yellowstone park of America, one square mile basin of this park is home to hundreds of geysers and some are very hot springs, at the surface boiling point of 199? F / 93? C.
Fortunately, Muhammad or Allah did not know about these geysers. If they had the knowledge of geysers; they would have accepted these Geysers as miracles and command Muslims to throw all infidels in the boiling waters instead of grilling them.
People of other religions did not find enough holy water to take shower, so they depend on blessed water. The biblical river Jordan has lost its glamour and importance due to political unrest of Middle East. Now Christians, Jews and Buddhists use blessed water from their priests to drive away evils and be sanctified.
The irony of this story is the peculiar similarities between Muslims and Hindus despite their enmity. Muslims believe the myth of Zam Zam and Hindus are convinced with the story of Ganges water. They have one thing in common- Purify soul with miracle water.
Can a bottle of Zam Zam water clean the dark soul of a terrorist or a bucket of dirty and unhygienic water of Ganges change the heart of a Hindu? It was OK for ancient people to practice these ancient rituals but not for the people of the 21st century! Zam Zam water, blessed water and Ganges water are not the miracles; the miracle is the people of 21st century who believe them.
Definitely, the people of 80th century will be shocked when they learn about this holy water business and they will be laughing their heads off. So, lets honor our future generation and take a moment to laugh!
V interesting, no?
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Satire is a powerful weapon. Sher Khan is not the best practitioner I have read but I understand where he is coming from.
The Onion - has a very good satirical line in it today...
"(Christian) Heaven less opulent than Vatican... reports disappointed pope"
Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope
HEAVEN?The soul of Pope John Paul, which entered heaven last week following a long illness, expressed confusion and disappointment Saturday, upon learning that the Celestial Kingdom of God to which the departed faithful ascend in the afterlife is significantly less luxurious than the Vatican's Papal Palace, in which the pope spent the past 26 years of his earthly life.
"Where are all the marble statues, sterling-silver chalices, and gem-encrusted scepters?" the visibly disappointed pope asked. "Where are the 60-foot-tall stained-glass windows and hand-painted cupolas? Where are the elaborately outfitted ranks of Swiss Guards? Why isn't every single surface gilded? This is my eternal reward?"
Heaven, according to the New Testament, has "brilliance like a very costly stone... of pure gold, like clear glass..." with "twelve gates... each gate a single pearl." Yet the pope, who spoke from the afterlife, said heaven is nothing like the "solid-gold city" detailed at length by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelations.
"Evidently, the Bible was not intended to be taken literally, after all," John Paul II said. "Don't get me wrong It's very nice up here?quite beautiful and serene. It's just not as fancy as what I'm accustomed to. If I'd known heaven was going to be like this, I would've taken one last tour through my 50 rooms of velvet-draped thrones and priceless oil paintings before saying 'Amen' and breathing my last."
According to the pope, heaven is merely a place of unending peace and happiness, wherein all the spirits of the Elect live together forever in perfect harmony and goodness, basking in the rays of God's divine love.
Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope"Up here, everyone is equal," John Paul II said. "No one has to go through an elaborate bowing ritual when they greet me. And do you know how many times my ring has been kissed since I arrived? None. Up here, I'm mingling with tax collectors, fishermen, and whores. It's just going to take a little getting used to, is all."
The pope said it is amusing to think that he has been waiting for this "so-called Paradise" his entire life.
"I spent almost 84 years reciting novenas and Hail Marys to get to this restful place," John Paul II said. "If I'd wanted peace, quiet, and pretty clouds, I could've moved to the Italian Riviera. Frankly, this afterlife represents a significant drop in my standard of living."
"Well, they always said you can't take it with you," he added.
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And more... (http//www.salagram.net/VWH-World.html)
- It is well known that Mohammed smashed all the deities except of that of Allah, and buried them in the cellars of the Temple. The Black Stone is black with reddish tones and yellow particles. It is an ovoid shape, about 111 inches wide and 15 inches high. This is typical shape and colour of Shiva-linga. In the book World Vedic Heritage it is said, "The general belief that Kaba is only a Shiva temple is not true. It is originated as a Vedic Shrine depicting the Vedic version of the creation with a reclining Vishnu's navel forming the centre of the cosmic theme. A whole pantheon of Vedic gods surrounded Vishnu. Mohammed destroyed them all. The Shiva-linga stone wrenched away from its base was retained as a sacred symbol because it was the special patron and a faceless deity of Mohammed's Kuru-ishi household. He was a Shaivite. That was why those insisting that the caliphate remain in his family are known as Shaivas, now called Shias (Shiites).
- An Ancient Sanskrit scripture known as "Harihareshwar Mahatmay has (a couplet) which mentions Lord Vishnu's holy foot prints to be at three main centres in the world, namely one in Gaya (India), the other in Mecca, and the third near Shukla Teertha. Thus today what Muslims treat as Mohammed's foot prints, are actually that of Lord Vishnu's.
Other Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions inside the Kaba walls, and what they are no body is allowed to study. - Namaz has its Sanskrit meaning as well, it is made of two Sanskrit letters nama and yaja, meaning to bow and worship.
V interesting, no?
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From (http//doormann.tripod.com/the0.htm)...
Kailash is the mountain of god Shiva, who is sitting there in eternal meditation with his wife Parvati.
Like in the Ka'bah in Mecca there is a tradition in Tibet to circumambulate something several times. This multiple 'Circumambulation' or 'Kora' around the Mt. Kailash - which is the home of Shiva, the Creator and Destroyer - is celebrated to a special date from the tibetian moon calendar, and a special 'spiritual cleaning or spiritual 'washing' (like the bath in the Ganges river) has a great meaning.http//doormann.tripod.com/kaailashpi.jpg
"Pilgrims at Circumambulation at the Mt. Kailash"V interesting, no?
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Is there any limit to how sly they get?
http//doormann.tripod.com/kabah008.jpg
They deliberately put the door in (so that tall Shiva can walk in easily), and so that the people walking around it cannot force their way ito it! Perhaps this modification was the reason the kaba was damaged and remad. Just a thought, is the door open, or do they lock poor old Shiva inside? Just look at how dark the cement has become at the bottom of the walls compared to higher parts where people cannot get to, all that palm sweat and saliva! shock ?
V interesting, no?
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peace be upon you riz,
Shia'a comes from the word 'break' or 'split', it has nothing to do with Shiva. We should be more careful blindly accepting all this conjecture from Hindu sites.
I do agree, some of this info is rather shoddy and clearly false such as that but none the less a good amount of this information is very good and exposes the traditional "kaaba" cubed building for what it is, I do think the Shia and other traditional sects have their origin in pagan Hinduism, just don't think the term Shia comes from Shivites
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We should be more careful blindly accepting all this conjecture from Hindu sites.
Your right, I think we must stress that we should verify all information. Having said that, some things are turning out to be a bit convincingaren't they - but we must try to mke sure wedon't follow conjecture. Your right.
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From... (http//www.salagram.net/VWH-World.html) - as highlighted earlier...
...It is originated as a Vedic Shrine depicting the Vedic version of the creation with a reclining Vishnu's navel forming the centre of the cosmic theme...
http//geo.ya.com/travelimages/az-kaaba-bkstone.jpg
What do you guys think of it being shaped like a Navel rather than a female pudenda?
V interesting, no?
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Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command. So is GOD commanding idol worship. Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship. Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat. Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless!Peace idmkhizar,
Your post strikes me as contradictory, at odds with itself, where do you draw the line between idol worship and a 'disciplinary act'? Its simple numbers. If you tell people to prostrate before something material in this world, the chances of them falling into idolatory behaviour skyrockets. Even if they dont know it; we know in various verses that many people on judgement day will claim they werent idolaters, out of ignorance.
By the way, a reminder of a dictionary definition of the word 'idol'
- An image used as an object of worship.
- A false god.
- One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
- Something visible but without substance.
The entire concept of the cube disturbs me, not parts of it, but its existence itself, promoted by muslims.
God and Islam promote abstract thoughts (the entire concept of God in the first place is extremely abstract), there are many verses which force us to think sideways and not in black and white; to use our minds. I dont believe attaching myself to something concrete in this world (symbol, building, person, etc), will get me any closer to enlightenment. By abandoning such things I believe my chances are greater, enlightenment through actions is what I'm thinking these days. God has given us many choices, a great mercy on us all; to be good to people, the land and animals, to live on the straight path. Or not. Our choice.
Interesting thread Natu, keep it up.
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Peace,
Here are few more sites elaborating on kaba
- http//www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm
- http//www.aryawat.com/kaaba.htm
- http//www.haberer-meteorite.de/english/Culture%20and%20religion.htm
- http//www.meteorite.ch/en/basics/history.htm
- http//www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html
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First you have to prove that Allah has commanded us to TURN OUR FACES IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM "WHILE PRAYING"
Khi- Salam. Ur right the phrase doesnt mention during salat but says 'turn ur faces 2wards it wherever u r'. However 'qiblah' means salat direction
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Thus masjudul haraam is the qiblah. W can see the relation of qiblah 2 salt in
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
We thus see the relation here.There was no MASJID in MECCA, let alone the MASJID AL HARAM.
Khi- U mean there was NO MASJIDUL HARAAM IN MECCA BE4 THE REV. OF THE QURAN. Plz provide proof 4 tht. This is exactly wht i want 2 know. If u can show tht then the argument is over.
According to the history of Islam, there was no MASJID around the KAABA and the area around KAABA was called MASJID AL HARAM.
Khi- Heh? There was no masjid but the area around the kaaba was yet called MASJIDul Haraam? If this is so then this still means tht both masjidul haraam n kaaba were there in Mecca. I want 2 know whether they were not there by these names be4 the birth of Muhammad.
In the absence of a structure how did the prophet turned his face in the direction of the OPEN PLACE
Khi- If the place was there he cld have turned his face in tht direction. Rem we r talking abt a direction here. No Muslim worships the building.
Since there is no word "SALAAT" in all the 8 verses, revealed in the context of the QIBLAH, your belief that it is a command to face MASJID AL HARAM while PRAYING is 100% CONJECTURE.
Khi- I showed u the relation above.
Allah never commanded the Prophet to face KAABA but MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed.
Khi- Wasnt it? Above u said tht although the building wasnt there the place was still called Madjidul Haraam so logically it was there. Also kaaba n masjidul haraam r similar according 2 this Quranic verse
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people,...Remember the MASJID AL HARAM is the TRUTH from the Lord and the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK know it.
Khi- So the true n honest ppl of the book may well know tht the kaaba was the right place. Also this end statement of the verse can have another interpretation not referring directly 2 the masjidul haraam but 2 the Scripture i.e. the Quran Itself n tht It's content is truth.
A structure built by mankind can never be the truth from Allah.
Khi- As i said there r two different interpretations of tht statement in tht verse.
WUDIcA
Placed / setWas the cubic structure set or placed or built? Without doubt mankind built it and therefore it was not Allah WHO built the House, because Allah never BUILDS anything but CREATES FROM NOTHING and PLACES.
Khi- Ofcourse mankind built n cld have done so by inspiration of GOD.
the BAYT was PLACED / SET for MANKIND and not BUILT.
The BAYT is appointed FOR MANKIND but it is GUIDANCE FOR THE AALAMEN.
Khi- Ok so the already built House which was built by Abraham n Ishmael under GOD's instruction was thereafter SET 4 mankind. Again i see no prob here.
Is there anyone in the world who has been guided by the KAABA?
Verily the first House set apart unto mankind was that at Bakka, blest, and a GUIDANCE UNTO THE WORLDS. 396
A MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION
CAN THE KAABA GUIDE EVERYONE? (AALAMEN)
Thanks.
Khi- This is a good pt. However it may be used as an allegory here tht ppl by visiting tht House n gathering 2gether 2 remeber GOD r guided as a result of the process. GOD Bless!
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Peace idmkhizar,
Your post strikes me as contradictory, at odds with itself, where do you draw the line between idol worship and a 'disciplinary act'? Its simple numbers. If you tell people to prostrate before something material in this world, the chances of them falling into idolatory behaviour skyrockets. Even if they dont know it; we know in various verses that many people on judgement day will claim they werent idolaters, out of ignorance.
By the way, a reminder of a dictionary definition of the word 'idol'
- An image used as an object of worship.
- A false god.
- One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
- Something visible but without substance.
The entire concept of the cube disturbs me, not parts of it, but its existence itself, promoted by muslims.
God and Islam promote abstract thoughts (the entire concept of God in the first place is extremely abstract), there are many verses which force us to think sideways and not in black and white; to use our minds. I dont believe attaching myself to something concrete in this world (symbol, building, person, etc), will get me any closer to enlightenment. By abandoning such things I believe my chances are greater, enlightenment through actions is what I'm thinking these days. God has given us many choices, a great mercy on us all; to be good to people, the land and animals, to live on the straight path. Or not. Our choice.
Interesting thread Natu, keep it up.
Khi- Salam beatnik. All i said is tht prostrating be4 someone cannot be considrted idol worship otherwsise wht wld u make abt 12100 in Quran where Joseph's family PROSTRATED(sajda) BE4 JOSEPH, NOT GOD? GOD Bless!
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Peace brother idmkhizar
Khi- Salam. Ur right the phrase doesnt mention during salat but says 'turn ur faces 2wards it wherever u r'. However 'qiblah' means salat direction
In which dictionary you have "QIBLAH" = SALAAT DIRECTION?
I will be obliged to you if you could name the dictionary, because I have 8 dictionaries and I don't find it.
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt FOR THE TIME BEING, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
From where you got "FOR THE TIME BEING" Are these words in the verse? There is no word QIBLAHS (plural) but QIBLAH only (singular).
Does this mean that every JEW faced his HOUSE? Where is the command to face the Houses while PRAYING? How are you so sure that the verse commands to FACE Masjid Al Haram WHILE PRAYING? Are you not FOLLOWING CONJECTURES?
TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING VERSE.
Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not FOLLOW thy Qiblah (MASJID AL HARAM); nor art thou to be a FOLLOWER of their Qiblah; nor indeed will they FOLLOW each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong. 2145
In the above verse there is NO COMMAND to FACE THE QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM
Clear instructions are from Allah to FOLLOW the QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM.
How did the prophet and his followers FOLLOWED the PRAYING DIRECTION (MASJID AL HARAM)
The prophet is warned that he should NOT be a FOLLOWER of their QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) JERUSALEM
What is the DANGER involved in FOLLOWING the JERUSALEM as a PRAYING DIRECTION?
WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD "FOLLOW" and "FOLLOWER" OF PRAYING DIRECTION?
Try to ponder on the above verse while keeping in mind the words FOLLOW and FOLLOWER.
NO one can FOLLOW praying direction and NO one can be a FOLLOWER of praying direction.
WE can be FOLLOWERS of the QURAN, PROPHET, and SCHOLARS, IMAMS etc. but WE can never be FOLLOWERS of the PRAYING DIRECTIONS.Khi- U mean there was NO MASJIDUL HARAAM IN MECCA BE4 THE REV. OF THE QURAN. Plz provide proof 4 tht. This is exactly wht i want 2 know. If u can show tht then the argument is over.
There is no need to provide any proof that there was no MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran and neither you can prove that there was any MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran
You won't find a single mosque in a country where there are no Muslims, because it is not just needed for NON MUSLIMS, then how you expect MASJID to built before prophet Muhammad in a city of 100% Kaafirs. There was not a single mosque in INDIA just 1300 years before, because there were no MUSLIMS in INDIA.
There is no MANDIR in SAUDI ARABIA, because there are no KAAFIR CITIZENS and the SAUDI authorities do not allow this. In the above context how you expect the KAAFIRS to build a MASJID, which is not of their use, and again the MASJID is for ALLAH in whom they disbelieve.
Khi- Wasnt it? Above u said tht although the building wasnt there the place was still called Madjidul Haraam so logically it was there
When I said that the area around KAABA is called the MASJID AL HARAM it does not mean that I said it or believe it. It is there in the Islamic History.
You can clearly see a small picture of a MASJID nearly 100 feet away from the KAABA (THIS PICTURE IS DISPLAYED ON THE NET AND IS HARDLY 100 YEARS OLD).
Now the verse says TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS THE MASJID AL HARAM.
But unfortunately you TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA, which is against the command of the Quran.NEVER, NEVER did Allah say that TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA.
If MASJID AL HARAM was there and the KAABA was also there before the revelation of the QURAN, then why Allah did not command to face KAABA and instead said face MASJID AL HARAM?.
Why you don't face the 100 feet away MASJID AL HARAM (as per the picture which is nearly 100 years old) instead of facing KAABA?
Did Allah command you to FACE THE KAABA?
Khi- So the true n honest ppl of the book may well know tht the kaaba was the right place.Also this end statement of the verse can have another interpretation not referring directly 2 the masjidul haraam but 2 the Scripture i.e. the Quran Itself n tht It's content is truth.
The People of the Book knew the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons.
How about THOSE people of the BOOK who never visited MECCA in their lifetime, and died outside MECCA, did they know the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons? Allah never said the people of the BOOK of MECCA but to THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN THE BOOK and in THOSE people ALSO INCLUDED who were residing in EGYPT, IRAQ, and JORDAN etc. did THOSE know the MASJID AL HARAM?
The verse does not point to the Quran but to the MASJID only. READ PROPERLY
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. And verily those who are vouchsafed the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. 2144
The SUBJECT is not Quran but the TURNING of the FACE towards the QIBLAH, MASJID AL HARAM and that is the truth.
THE CORRUPTION
And FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJTA) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. 2149So FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJ) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM; and wheresoever you (all) are turn your faces towards it lest there be no plea against you among the people except those of them that are wrong-doers; so fear them not but fear Me; and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided. 2150
There is no COMMAND to pray FACING the Masjid Al Haram
Have you ever pondered over the two separate commands?
The command to the prophet FROM WHERESOEVER you GO FORTH turn your face towards the Masjid Al Haram
The command to the believers WHERESOEVER YOU ARE, then turn your faces towards the Masjid Al Haram
SO FROM WHERESOEVER (KHARAJTA) YOU (PROPHET) go forth (into battle) / to attack / to rise / fight (against) / to rebel, to revolt (against) / exit / emerge / come out / DEPART / LEAVE / retire / exude / effuse / project / stick out / dismount / alight / disembark / get out / step out / emanate / issue / arise / originate / draw away / segregate / separate / secede / dissent / disagree / depart / expel / dislodge / evict / drive / exile THEN TURN YOUR FACE TOWARDS / IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM.
The most appropriate meaning of KHARAJ is GO FORTH (into battle) / to attack / to fight (against)
And if they had intended to (KHUROJ) GO FORTH, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind, and it was said (to them), "Sit you among those who sit (at home)." Had they (KHARAJO) GONE FORTH with you, they would have added to you nothing except disorder, and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you, and there are some among you who would have listened to them. And Allah is the All-Knower of the Zalimun 946/47
Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have (KHARAJ) COME FORTH with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. 942
How will you explain "KHARAJTA" in the above verse in the ABSENCE of the word " SALAAT"
It is high time that the MUSLIMS should start looking for EVERY word of the verse before jumping to conclusions.
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed, 111
The verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED; it means that in HIS PERFECTED VERSE there is no SALAAT, and when you add SALAAT, then it means that you are PERFECTING the VERSES OF ALLAH.
Thanks
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In which dictionary you have "QIBLAH" = SALAAT DIRECTION?
I will be obliged to you if you could name the dictionary, because I have 8 dictionaries and I don't find it.
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt FOR THE TIME BEING, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
From where you got "FOR THE TIME BEING" Are these words in the verse? There is no word QIBLAHS (plural) but QIBLAH only (singular).
Does this mean that every JEW faced his HOUSE? Where is the command to face the Houses while PRAYING? How are you so sure that the verse commands to FACE Masjid Al Haram WHILE PRAYING? Are you not FOLLOWING CONJECTURES?
Khi- From 1087 we can conclude tht Qiblah= Salat direction coz of the relation
'waj'alu bayootakum QIBLATAN WA AQEEMUSSALAH'. So there is a clear relation btw salah n qiblah. Wht else can u derive from tht verse?TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING VERSE.
Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not FOLLOW thy Qiblah (MASJID AL HARAM); nor art thou to be a FOLLOWER of their Qiblah; nor indeed will they FOLLOW each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong. 2145
In the above verse there is NO COMMAND to FACE THE QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM
Khi- Qiblah was always unmderstood 2 be a direction 4 salah as indicated by 1087. I understood the above verse tht the kaafirs did not enjoin unity during their slah but wanted 2 be divided.
Clear instructions are from Allah to FOLLOW the QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM.
How did the prophet and his followers FOLLOWED the PRAYING DIRECTION (MASJID AL HARAM)
Khi- They turned 2 it during salah.
The prophet is warned that he should NOT be a FOLLOWER of their QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) JERUSALEM
Khi- How do u know their, the kaafir's, qiblah was Jerusalem n not perhaps something else like mabe their own homes?
What is the DANGER involved in FOLLOWING the JERUSALEM as a PRAYING DIRECTION?
Khi- Since theres no mention of Jerusalem anywhere this qs of urs is irrelevant.
WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD "FOLLOW" and "FOLLOWER" OF PRAYING DIRECTION?
Khi- It's all abt discipline.
Try to ponder on the above verse while keeping in mind the words FOLLOW and FOLLOWER.
NO one can FOLLOW praying direction and NO one can be a FOLLOWER of praying direction.
Khi- I can follow a praying direction by turning 2wards it during my prayer cant i?
WE can be FOLLOWERS of the QURAN, PROPHET, and SCHOLARS, IMAMS etc. but WE can never be FOLLOWERS of the PRAYING DIRECTIONS.
Khi- How come? I dont see any sense here.
There is no need to provide any proof that there was no MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran and neither you can prove that there was any MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran
Khi- I believe theres need 2 do so. Since u r against following a physical qiblah the burden of proof is on u.
You won't find a single mosque in a country where there are no Muslims, because it is not just needed for NON MUSLIMS, then how you expect MASJID to built before prophet Muhammad in a city of 100% Kaafirs. There was not a single mosque in INDIA just 1300 years before, because there were no MUSLIMS in INDIA.
Khi- Did i use the word 'mosque'. NO! I said masjid n masjid means places of prostration/submission. Thus a mandra, church, synagogue, temple all r masjids. Now it depends whether u serve GOD Alone in them or others besides Him. Thus there obviously were masjids be4 Quran. Masjid is not a proper noun or name of a place as many ppl falsely suppose.
There is no MANDIR in SAUDI ARABIA, because there are no KAAFIR CITIZENS and the SAUDI authorities do not allow this. In the above context how you expect the KAAFIRS to build a MASJID, which is not of their use, and again the MASJID is for ALLAH in whom they disbelieve.
Khi- Explained above.
When I said that the area around KAABA is called the MASJID AL HARAM it does not mean that I said it or believe it. It is there in the Islamic History.
You can clearly see a small picture of a MASJID nearly 100 feet away from the KAABA (THIS PICTURE IS DISPLAYED ON THE NET AND IS HARDLY 100 YEARS OLD).
Now the verse says TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS THE MASJID AL HARAM.
But unfortunately you TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA, which is against the command of the Quran.Khi- Masjidul HAraam= Kaaba. Plz read
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.NEVER, NEVER did Allah say that TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA.
Khi- He doesnt need 2 coz they r one n the same thing.
If MASJID AL HARAM was there and the KAABA was also there before the revelation of the QURAN, then why Allah did not command to face KAABA and instead said face MASJID AL HARAM?.
Khi- As i said it doesnt matter since they r boith the same but i believe coz Masjidul Haraam is the whole area so tht it becomes more easy 4 ppl 2 pt in tht direction. Also Masjdul Haraam is more specific than kaaba which cld refer 2 other cubes as well so GOD hose the specific word.
Why you don't face the 100 feet away MASJID AL HARAM (as per the picture which is nearly 100 years old) instead of facing KAABA?
Khi- Masjidul Haraam includes the Kaaba.
Did Allah command you to FACE THE KAABA?
Khi- He didnt need 2 as explained above.
The People of the Book knew the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons.
Khi- U didnt get it did u. Tht phrase doesnt refer 2 masjidul haraam but 2 the Quran
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this(Quran's message) is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Those who received the scripture recognize the truth HEREIN(not any masjid but Quran), as they recognize their own children. Yet, some of them conceal the truth, knowingly.
Did u get it now?How about THOSE people of the BOOK who never visited MECCA in their lifetime, and died outside MECCA, did they know the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons? Allah never said the people of the BOOK of MECCA but to THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN THE BOOK and in THOSE people ALSO INCLUDED who were residing in EGYPT, IRAQ, and JORDAN etc. did THOSE know the MASJID AL HARAM?
Khi- Since tht phrase doesnt talk abt masjidul haraam tall these qs r irrelevant.
The verse does not point to the Quran but to the MASJID only. READ PROPERLY
Khi- No it doesnt necessarily. There can be different interpretations as regards 2 this. U r bent on taking the one which suits ur purpose.
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. And verily those who are vouchsafed the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. 2144
The SUBJECT is not Quran but the TURNING of the FACE towards the QIBLAH, MASJID AL HARAM and that is the truth.
Khi- The main subject of the Quran is It's message being the truth. View this in relation with 2146
Those who received the SCRIPTURE recognize the TRUTH herein, as they recognize their own children. Yet, some of them conceal the truth, knowingly.
But lets take ur interpretation. Since Abraham built the Kaaba in Mecca 2gether with Ishmael the ppl of the book know it tht it's the true house of GOD but r deliberately concealing this coz most of them r racists n hate the Arabs. Therefore they abhor the possibility tht Abraham cld have gone 2 an Arab city n build the temple there.THE CORRUPTION
And FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJTA) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. 2149So FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJ) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM; and wheresoever you (all) are turn your faces towards it lest there be no plea against you among the people except those of them that are wrong-doers; so fear them not but fear Me; and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided. 2150
There is no COMMAND to pray FACING the Masjid Al Haram
Khi- This is a valid pt. However since we find in the Quran a mention 2 face a Qiblah also which is masjidul haraam n qiblah is related 2 salat in 1087 as well as masjid which is literally a place of submission we can thus draw a relation btw the three.
Have you ever pondered over the two separate commands?
Khi- Separate commands?
The command to the prophet FROM WHERESOEVER you GO FORTH turn your face towards the Masjid Al Haram
The command to the believers WHERESOEVER YOU ARE, then turn your faces towards the Masjid Al Haram
SO FROM WHERESOEVER (KHARAJTA) YOU (PROPHET) go forth (into battle) / to attack / to rise / fight (against) / to rebel, to revolt (against) / exit / emerge / come out / DEPART / LEAVE / retire / exude / effuse / project / stick out / dismount / alight / disembark / get out / step out / emanate / issue / arise / originate / draw away / segregate / separate / secede / dissent / disagree / depart / expel / dislodge / evict / drive / exile THEN TURN YOUR FACE TOWARDS / IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM.
The most appropriate meaning of KHARAJ is GO FORTH (into battle) / to attack / to fight (against)
And if they had intended to (KHUROJ) GO FORTH, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind, and it was said (to them), "Sit you among those who sit (at home)." Had they (KHARAJO) GONE FORTH with you, they would have added to you nothing except disorder, and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you, and there are some among you who would have listened to them. And Allah is the All-Knower of the Zalimun 946/47
Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have (KHARAJ) COME FORTH with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. 942
How will you explain "KHARAJTA" in the above verse in the ABSENCE of the word " SALAAT"
Khi- So according 2 u wht does GOD mean when He told the Prophet 2 face Masjidul Haraam from wherever he went forth?
It is high time that the MUSLIMS should start looking for EVERY word of the verse before jumping to conclusions.
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed, 111
The verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED; it means that in HIS PERFECTED VERSE there is no SALAAT, and when you add SALAAT, then it means that you are PERFECTING the VERSES OF ALLAH.
Thanks
Khi- This is a valid pt which came up in my mind also but then i saw 1087 n saw a relation. Plz explain tht 4 me 1st. Wht did GOD mean by Qiblah in tht verse n in the others? GOD Bless!