Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.

Makaveli

Indeed Makaveli! I do understand your frustration and position. This man in my opinion has clearly insulted your intelligence, by stonewalling you. You could also be forgiven for thinking that by him pulling rank, he feels superior to you. Yes of course it is right to think of all those people who will be influenced by him. Unfortunately getting yourself upset will not change his views; however I do appreciate why you felt the need to express this important issue.

Na, I don't care about people blocking me ;D, but Quran alone community is quite disorganized to say the least, and I wanted personally to surround myself with people whose opinion I trust and who I believe are spreading good message. There is too much information on the Internet, most of it is useless or straight harmful. Perhaps one day I will myself learn Arabic and devote a work to the study of the Quran and there are reasons why is this impossible right now, including finances, but until then I do study Quran based on observable findings. And to me, it is best to separate good from hypocrisy so as not to fall in deception.

simonejamilla

Na, I don't care about people blocking me ;D, but Quran alone community is quite disorganized to say the least, and I wanted personally to surround myself with people whose opinion I trust and who I believe are spreading good message. There is too much information on the Internet, most of it is useless or straight harmful. Perhaps one day I will myself learn Arabic and devote a work to the study of the Quran and there are reasons why is this impossible right now, including finances, but until then I do study Quran based on observable findings. And to me, it is best to separate good from hypocrisy so as not to fall in deception.

Disorganized indeed! That sounds like an achievable and very commendable goal! May God keep our feet firmly on the right path, and not let our hearts deviate from that path after God has guided us. sun

Makaveli

Disorganized indeed! That sounds like an achievable and very commendable goal! May God keep our feet firmly on the right path, and not let our hearts deviate from that path after God has guided us. ) sun

Regarding the right path, something came to my mind randomly. Studying God's message takes devotion, patience and reason. Reason is especially important. This is what differentiates us from other creatures, which do not possess mind capacity as we do. I can see a lot of people wasting their times getting high or drunk, thinking about having fun from weekend to weekend, dreaming of material wishes (cars, ladies, resorts), doing fake jobs such as betting, currency exchange or making money of parasitic stuff like youtube blogging. Some people get depressed for months over trivial stuff, which does not matter in the first place. People fall for deceitful scams such as patriotism.

I mean, look at this guy , he is totally stupid. He is a complete idiot, his face, everything about him https//www.washingtonpost.com/video/world/russian-reporter-gets-punched-during-live-broadcast/2017/08/03/dc3ff166-7848-11e7-8c17-533c52b2f014_video.html?utm_term=.74973402d0b7

and it is not just because the guy is drunk, there is an article on him, he is like that as usual https//www.rt.com/sport/399354-journalist-thug-punched-tv-reporter/

Funny thing is, the journalist for the Russian propaganda TV who was hit was making a report for Russian's Airborne Troops Day, which is a day when slaves get drunk and swim in the fountains (the guy on the video is reported to be not a soldier, simply a drunkard who likes to fight) https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAuW9hmk_6c , and he was hit by the very target audience of their. They create pro-governmental propaganda for the population of slaves, i.e. exactly those people. The guy who hit the journalist was screaming anti-Ukrainian stuff. Such an irony )

People like this will never use their mind and reason to study God's message, they simply won't, they are not capable of it. Only committed and reasonable believers will try to find truth, and it is impossible without investing in yourself, without actually acquiring knowledge and 'training' your mind. Without work and patience it is not possible. A drunk animal will never understand it, he will only blindly follow what his TV and beer tell him.

That being said, God has chosen a perfect way for people to both, find truth, AND develop themselves at the same time ) God's message creates no blind slaves and this itself is great, it shows there is point in life.

But once you acquire this knowledge, it is easy I guess to fall in the trap of arrogance, this is something smart people should be careful of, that's what I believe. There is a test for everyone. Dull people are tested to find their way out of stupidity, smart people are tested with new challenges, such as arrogance and how to live knowing many things others do not observe. That is my personal problem as I have family members who well, know nothing, they watch TV and some of them consider me to be a member of some cult because I do not accept their blind traditions and what propaganda says D I used to frequently debate with people during nightouts in my city and people several times asked me if I am a Jehovah witness (!), even though there was nothing about Bible or anything in our discussions, it was mostly socio-philosophical, just wow. But that's a reality.

Wakas

peace,

I have a feeling that he used your articles.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess it's possible.

reel

Your issue was with him though? Years back I publicly outed what I considered a bigot, and tbh it didn't do any good, just made me look like a big headed plonker! In hindsight, I would have just given my understanding, with supporting evidence from the Qur'an.

No judgement! Just passing on some advice! jedi

I consider this thread to be important. We have the right to know if a person is up to something suspicious in the name of what we believe before that person exploits it and it becomes too late for us to do anything against his atrocity. OP provided some info. It is for us to research the accuracy and come to conclusion. At this point, I don't see honesty in Gerrans. I'll elaborate that in my reply to OP below.

So who is Mr. Gerrans, a talker, a doer, or a manipulative snob who blocks people but necessarily preserves his 'right' of last word by sending a video about what a doer he is and these noisy talkers, who point out some of the things they do not agree with?

I don't think anyone in the community thinks government is always right.

We all criticize our own governments' crimes. But he is silent on Putin and uses the exact words used against those who reject Putin's ideology. One of those words is "liberal".

We are aware of elites and all. We too believe in conspiracy theories. But a Quran follower needs to be genuine in his dealings. That's opposite to Prince text. Realpolitik doesn't care about ethics. So it doesn't make sense for Gerrans to claim to be Qurancentric. His wife-beating verse explanation echos how sectarians approach Quran.

Perhaps, he is a shill? There is a love triangle for natural resources at Middle East. My government usually prefers the hardcore orthodox rulers to make the love possible. To kick that out, Russia would obviously try the opposite, aka, secularism? So far Sam's principles look like he wants people to rebel against the orthodox rulers. But using of Quran only movement seems like a terrible choice. I don't see it working.

Anyways, this is from his youtube link

My note to 434 reads
"Arabic araba. Various imaginative interpretations of this instance of this word exist, particularly among more intelligent and Qur'an-focused Muslims. Their efforts notwithstanding, the verb araba still does mean to beat or spank or strike and in the context here there is little else that it could mean.

Comment So intelligent and Quran focused Muslims come up with imaginative interpretations? Any proof? Okay, now Sam will tell us how daraba still means beat in 434.

Naturally, this single sentence can be wrest from its context and made much of by people who feel that they benefit from so doing. I leave such people to enjoy whatever it is they think they gain from their activities. We all go to God.

Comment I thought Quran was sent for the benefit of people. So if they don't accept daraba as beating they have to answer God? Okay, now Sam will tell us how daraba still means beat in 434.

My position is this the judicious spanking of a recalcitrant wife has been practiced by husbands who wished to achieve and maintain domestic harmony since time immemorial. It is recommended in the medieval Russian Orthodox handbook (Domostroi), for example, and was practiced commonly in both ancient and later Western culture prior to the moral degradation which began in earnest following WWI and then with accelerated force following WWII.

However, wife-spanking is still practiced today quite widely within certain Christian circles, and information attesting to its efficacy and value within both religious and non-religious households is not difficult to find.

Comment Sure in many cultures, people have been beating their wives. Okay, now Sam will tell us how daraba still means beat in 434. Or is it more like God is cool with the wife beating because its been happening for a long time?Oh wait, I thought Sam wants independence from conformism.

Contemporary liberals will be outraged by these facts, just as they are outraged by most facts.

Comment Which facts is he talking about? I still don't see how daraba
means beat in 434. Maybe in the next part he will explain.

The high divorce rates, confusion of roles, demonstrable dysfunction, moral relativity and celebration of blatant perversion which are standard fare among the victims of Cultural Marxism serve as an indication of the extent to which one should be guided by such people.

Comment And these things are happening because people don't want to beat their wives?

Some women prefer a man who is forceful ? they simply do. If a woman has grown up with a father who is strict, it will be difficult for her to respect a man who lets her manipulate or belittle him.

Comment And beating is a part of that?

In addition, many married couples attest to the fact that when the man takes full charge of his wife it both saves the marriage and infuses it with vital energy and commitment.

Comment And beating is a part of taking full charge of the wife? What's the meaning of full charge?

In the Qur?anic context, one must not forget that this verse is directed to those who heed warning (see 429). Both parties accept the Qur'an and have access to it. The woman will know that if she pushes the man far enough he must ? in keeping with the Qur'an ? respond eventually as outlined at 434.

Comment In the Quranic context, one must not forget that marriage is for living with a person in peace. Both parties accept the Quran and with that they accept

And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.3021

In addition, many married couples attest to the fact that when the man takes full charge of his wife it both saves the marriage and infuses it with vital energy and commitment.

What's the definition of pushing him far enough?Looks like God isn't letting the guy beat her if she does immorality openly.

O you who believe! Not (is) lawful for you that you inherit the women (by) force. And not you constraint them so that you may take a part (of) what you have given them except that they commit immorality open. And live with them in kindness. But if you dislike them, then perhaps that you dislike a thing and Allah placed in it much good.419

She can, of course, initiate separation proceedings at any time. If she has not done so and has pushed her husband beyond admonishment and separate sleeping arrangements, it is reasonable to assume that she is in tacit agreement with what is to follow.

As intelligent, reasonable people of good will we can take it for granted that actual crimes against the person are to be responsibly prosecuted; if we are not intelligent, reasonable people of good will, our primary problems reside there and not in the quality of the guidance we are given."

Comment And the husband should also know what he might get if he beats her

And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you and not transgress. Indeed, Allah (does) not like the transgressors.2190

My comment at the end of the book reads
"The Qur?an lists remedial applications in the case of a marriage which is going wrong. The last resort among these remedial applications is for the husband to spank the wife. Some choose now not to read this passage in this way under modern pressures, but the context and the Arabic are clear enough.

Naturally, some would see this as a barbaric abuse of a woman?s rights.

Comment I think it is vandalism of God's property.

And people who think this way may take solace in the fact that within a Qur?anic marriage the woman is at all times aware of her rights she knows the list of remedial applications should she treat her husband with contempt and ? should that list be initiated ? where the couple are on that list and what comes next.

Also, naturally, she has the right to initiate divorce at any time before this last stage is reached.

For those who do not consider a man?s exercise of undiluted mastery over his wife anathema to the natural order, the woman has the right ? should she wish to exercise it ? to remain within the marriage and indirectly require her husband to take charge.

This is within a broader legal context where outright violence against someone who has done no violence to you is itself a crime requiring equal requital."

Comment Sam has not given any proof that the word in the verse does mean spanking/beating. His approach to Quran at this point seems not so different from how it is approached in sects. Just like them, his view ignores the verses which contradict his interpretation of 434 and even marriage. Just like them, the view seeks guidance from the past people without considering whether what they did is ethical or unethical. That surprisingly contradicts his principle of getting independence from conformism. Being Muslim means being in a state of peace and not being in a state of robot.

He claims to be consistent, but I do not find that in his work.

I also don't believe Quran followers would say the following for that video unless they are very very new to the idea

Brent Morgan6 months ago
Excellent stuff! Spare the rod, spoil the wife
Reply 2

Black Ram1 day ago
women love the bad boy, they also love a real tough man..puts them in there place... face the fact.... this is why nice guys finish last... face it, women like a man who says no and is in control. spank her, she will appreciate it.
Reply 1

BRUQBEATS4 weeks ago
Thanks Sam. Interesting Indeed.
Reply 1

Me MyselfAndI6 months ago
Lol! I agree with all you said tho!
Reply 1

Taz Mirza6 months ago
thanks Sam another brilliant talk well done
Reply 2
Taz Mirza
Taz Mirza6 months ago
Europe is a s*** hole for many reasons

Philip Voerding6 months ago
Brother Sam Gerrans, if you will let me call you that, I think you hit the ... oops, better not write it that way haha ... you gave a personally reasonable and historically accurate description of the problem revolving around what is nowadays a controversial ayah in the Quran.

The first translation I ever read, Pichthal's Translation (Sunni Muslim), translated the passage as "scourge" and yes, back in 1995 that bothered me. Rashad Khalifa had "beat lightly". The 12er Shia Muslim translation by S. V. Mir Ahmad Ali has "beat likely", with commentary from Agha Pooya quoting a 12er Shia Muslim hadith which says that the Prophet commanded believers to love their wives and treat them decently. A naturalized 12er Shia Muslim brother stated that in classic times, if a married woman and a man married to a different woman were caught flirting and carrying on immodestly, the man would be publicly beaten. The woman, on the other hand, would be privately admonished and hit, but no marks were to be left on her skin. I believe this is still the case in some non-Western countries.

You brought up the manual from the medieval Russian Orthodox Church. It reminded me of attending a ROCOR Parish listening to Russians who emigrated to the USA 20 years ago when I was having problems with Western Christianity and checking out Orthodoxy. I remember hearing the mostly immigrant choir at the Parish of Saint Panteleimon, chanting the Lord's Prayer in Old Church Slavonic ... all I could hear were booming Russian baritones voices with Sopranos. It was so beautiful, even more beautiful than the two Psalms and the Beatitudes during the chanting of the Antiphons ... but I have hopelessly digressed.

The British "Rule of Thumb" supports your thesis. I have read some Zen Stories (nope, I'm not a Buddhist) where either the Monk would ask a question, or the Abbot would ask a question and the Monk would give an unenlightened answer or no answer, and the Monk would hit the Monk really hard. This even happened to women who wanted to be enter the monastery in some cases. Why don't Rinzai Zen instructors do this to their Western students anymore?

I'm 57 years old and some of that modernist/Marxist conditioning has had an influence on me, also. I used to defend the ayah in question as meaning "to separate", also, especially after 911, but I do believe it means a spanking used as a last resort to save a marriage, and its not a beating.

God blessed me with a better wife than I deserve, a Filipina woman who likes the current Philippines President Duterte. A strong, conservative woman with old school family values, and a Roman Catholic. I believe she has a better world view than I do, growing up as a working class Filipina. If anyone deserves a good spanking in this marriage, it certainly isn't her, hehe.

peace,

Thanks for clarifying. I guess it's possible.

You're welcome )

Wasn't she the one who bravely rebelled the Pharoah's evil tyranny. She has served The Almighty (SWTY) well for standing up against that satanic madman.

Yeah, she remains nameless. I see a good lesson from her story. She was against him and even wanted God to save her from him, but then realized her love after he was hurt. What I understand from this is that sometimes we may hate someone we have relationship with. We may stand against their unethical behavior, but if we ask for the negative from God as a solution between us and them then along with them we risk suffering. Its like "be careful about what you wish for".

simonejamilla

I consider this thread to be important. We have the right to know if a person is up to something suspicious in the name of what we believe before that person exploits it and it becomes too late for us to do anything against his atrocity. OP provided some info. It is for us to research the accuracy and come to conclusion. At this point, I don't see honesty in Gerrans.

Agreed! I did actually have a conversation with him a few years back. He invited me to look into his philosophy, and I did. I have since not looked any further, as I disagreed with him more so then I agreed. At that time he was trying to set up a community for like minded people. Haven't a clue whether or not he achieved his goal? peace

Mazhar

I'm 57 years old and some of that modernist/Marxist conditioning has had an influence on me, also. I used to defend the ayah in question as meaning "to separate", also, especially after 911, but I do believe it means a spanking used as a last resort to save a marriage, and its not a beating.

That is exactly what is said in the Ayah, if we adhere to the syntax of the sentence.

The perception enfolded in the Arabic Root matches the semantic field of English verb "strike", and both share all the semantic components. One component of "strike" is to remove something away-displace.

Action immediately before is to distance the wife within the bed room. What is implied by distancing away the wife within the bed room is understood - suspension of matrimonial affair.

Next step is the continuation of the previous action if it fails. Separate them from the bed room. It is basic principle of Arabic that every word stemming from the Root must contain in it the basic perception of the Root which is to make something evident for others, understandable by others. Displacing the wife from the bedroom make it understood by others that the couple is not having matrimonial relation.

Thereby, others are asked to intervene to revive the relationship lest it is permanently broken.

Grand Qur'aan has prohibited domestic violence negating erroneous "belief" of beating one's wife.

Makaveli

We all criticize our own governments' crimes. But he is silent on Putin and uses the exact words used against those who reject Putin's ideology. One of those words is "liberal".

What my personal stance is, there is no good or bad government, they are all opressors, Putin or the US government, it does not matter, they are all criminals to the core. Putin used to blow houses in Moscow in '99 https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings and did countless of other crimes / US government faked 9/11 and did countless of other crimes against humanity including nuclear bombings of peaceful citizens in August of '45.

You cannot base the government relying on the Quran alone. You need hadiths and many additional side-literature in order to form the government and bureauracy. Quran is simply not enough to build an oppresive machine. I know what I am talking about. They tried to get me in the army in my country, I had a year long bureaucratic war, and in the end I did not go to army. Next, they wanted to force me for the so called alternative duty, i.e. they wanted me to work for a year in some junkie centre, they lost that too. There is no way I am giving oath and serve the criminals, just because I was born where I was born. It was random I was born in my country, I could be born in the elite family or I could be born in south africa, it does not matter.

Quran is also not about solely personal salvation as Gerrans states, it is about forming the community of believers. Community vs government there is a huge difference. One is ran by the leaders who can be replaced any time by the community, the other is based on electoral scams or scams based on the family right to rule (monarchy). One is about people working together, helping each other, where each member of the community is doing his work, there are no parasites, even disabled people will have place in the community. The government is about slaves and parasites. Slaves work, parasites consume goods by welfare. These devils wanted to get me in just such an organization, in the junkie centre where I would feed and take care of parasites who do not work, but who survive because they are granted welfare from the people who do work.

Why I believe Quran is not solely about personal salvation but also about the community of belivers is because it was revealed to the community and there are multiple verses which state how the communtiy should act in various situation, including punishment of adulturers, dealing with wartime captives, punishing thieves, protecting itself against opressors et cetera.

I consider this thread to be important. We have the right to know if a person is up to something suspicious in the name of what we believe before that person exploits it and it becomes too late for

Regarding Gerran's interpretation of 434, it makes no sense in the context if 'beat' or 'spank' is provided in the verse. My first message to him clearly shows how many questions there occurs in case we use beat. Suddenly, if we use leave, no questions arrise, at least not that many questions, it makes clear sense that after a man stopped sleeping with her and she is still arrogant, they should initiate divorce process, which is described in 435, just after the previous verse. In case we use beat, it does not explain what will happen AFTER that. I mean, what is the point of beating her in case it is about time they signed divorce? There is no point.

Now, regarding Gerran's traditional argument that wife beating helps preserve the families. I believe families are important only in case there are children involved, because growing up in the broken family creates risk of various deviation in child development. Other than that, families are not important in the Quran, it is better to stay celibate and do righteous deeds. The following verse comes to mind 828, 1846, 3437.

But most people fail at celibacy and therefore they are seeking for a spouse, naturally. That is all right but people make mistakes and often marry a wrong person. Just like a woman may marry a wrong man. Can she beat him to counter his arrogance? You can beat the pride out of a woman and make her zombie, but that is not righteous, this is oppression, which will not establish a happy family.

Regarding women who like forceful men. I might say a bizarre thing, but let's be perfectly honest here, a lot of modern women clearly hint they like force, physical force. They also dream of being r-word. I myself have met such women, if you treat them too lightly they abandon you, 100%.

BUT

That is not the way women are created biologically, that is not their nature. This is social programming. In the last century before the 60's reforms, namely sexual revolution, women were raised in patriarchal families and they were, for the most part, obedient to their husbands, but not everywhere it was the same. Chicago of the '20's-30's during the great depression was full of feminists, for instance, who danced in cabaret, drank with men, smoked cigars and had unlimited sex. But fpr the most part families everywhere including the West were patriarchal.

These days, however, women are told they are free, but certain social programming processes, namely dirt such as erotics and pornography, create in them fantasies about being molested, beaten and even raped. That has nothing to do with

A) Biology of women, because that is cultural not biological;

B) Normal. That is not normal, because that is social programming and psychological deviation;

C) It is certainly not Quranic, read 2229, divorces must be peaceful.

I also stated in this thread earlier that I belive some women actually deserve to be beaten not less than men, but what does it have to do with Quranic family? In 2221 Quran clearly says about avoiding marriage with women who are not of Quranic backgrounds, because they may be accostumed to certain cultural practices that are against God's revelation to the people. For instance, women who are not believers can be polygamous, i.e. adulturers. As I pointed out in my message to Gerran's, in 425 Quran says that whoever of believers cannot marry a free believing woman he is allowed to marry a girl of non-Quranic background (that is my personal interpretation, I yet have to look more into 425) , and if she commits adultery, for her it is half of punishment of believing women. What kind of half-beating must they have in 434 then?

Sam also says that his 434 is in the context of 429, that these set of verses are specifically targeted to the people who believe. Is he saying that all other verses, including 425, do not play a role in 434? That is Quranism and that is seldom different from Islamic abrogation of verses, where they abrogated some verses in the name of Sunna and hadiths.

Summing up the above, not only is Gerrans's interpretation of 434 flawed, it is base don TRADITIONAL sources and mindset. In 2170 God clearly says

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

Therefore, following traditions is not a smart move when you have Quran. Wife beating is still practiced even in the liberal west, in some junkie families. There are many totally stupid stuff happening in many places, such as women falsely accuse a man of rape because he ignores her or rejects her, and this man most of the time has no legal ground to be protected of false accusations. But what is happening everywhere does not mean that believers should copy it.

Even if Gerrans is correct, he should establish a more Quranic basis of his argumentation of 434. Right now the only Quranic basis is lingusitic one, but languages do change. Who knows what Arabic roots meant back then. I am sure most of you who speak English natively cannot talk proto-Germanic or Middle English. I am not saying everything in the Quran is about some other Arabic language, but context plays an important role in the analysis of verses, and Gerrans clearly missed the context, despite claiming otherwise.

imrankhawaja

hey guys i just read a little bit of this person work, (SAM GERRRANS)
and interestingly he believes in flat earth yay brickwall ignore

and he try to drive his theory based on the initials of chapters too
but as soon i read his views on flat earth, i lost my interest reading more of his work..

Faith

hey guys i just read a little bit of this person work, (SAM GERRRANS)
and interestingly he believes in flat earth yay brickwall ignore

and he try to drive his theory based on the initials of chapters too
but as soon i read his views on flat earth, i lost my interest reading more of his work..

Peace,
"The earth is a sphere; it spins through space while orbiting the sun, hurtling thousands of kilometers an hour inside our Milky Way Galaxy." http//www.pic4ever.com/images/3110.gif

A lie told often enough becomes the truth. - Vladimir Lenin http//www.pic4ever.com/images/wcsmiley.gif

"If one speaks of the words "Flat Earth", listeners snicker. The mental reflect of a flat plane from which a person might fall into an infinite space, creates this disrespect. A globe earth, because unproven.. is pseudoscience, yet believed worldwide and passed from generation to generation, and any who question it.. is mocked and ridiculed."

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

A lie told often enough becomes the truth. - Vladimir Lenin http//www.pic4ever.com/images/wcsmiley.gif

Except not a single proof exists that Lenin actually said it ;D. By stating people believe in round Earth because it is passed from generation to generation you fall into the same trap by attributing random quotes to people that probably never said so, because these quotes are common on the Internet, whereas sources are never referenced. Not to mention the same 'repeated lie' can be attributed to the Flat Earth theory, the same mechanism which started the whole thing.

Faith

Except not a single proof exists that Lenin actually said it ;D. By stating people believe in round Earth because it is passed from generation to generation you fall into the same trap by attributing random quotes to people that probably never said so, because these quotes are common on the Internet, whereas sources are never referenced. Not to mention the same 'repeated lie' can be attributed to the Flat Earth theory, the same mechanism which started the whole thing.

Peace,
That's not the point, I didn't quote him to provide a proof. The quote itself is pretty understandable. Where's the harm in the quote?
Only those of weak faith are troubled by things that challenge their views. You can't have it both ways. It's either the Qur'an, or science. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/consoling2.gif
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/earthhug.gif http//www.pic4ever.com/images/15.gif

What my personal stance is, there is no good or bad government, they are all opressors, Putin or the US government, it does not matter, they are all criminals to the core. Putin used to blow houses in Moscow in '99 https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings and did countless of other crimes / US government faked 9/11 and did countless of other crimes against humanity including nuclear bombings of peaceful citizens in August of '45.

The same can be said for you when you reference wikipedia. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/sigh.gif

496 - O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
That's not the point, I didn't quote him to provide a proof. The quote itself is pretty understandable. Where's the harm in the quote?

As long as you do not claim it is attributed to someone, when in fact its not.

The same can be said for you when you reference wikipedia. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/sigh.gif

Uum, first of all, wikipedia includes sources and was given as a basic source to acknowledge on this particular event. There is also documentary on how the FSB tried to hide the facts and they several times changed their official position on the issue once it turned out their initial fairytale did not work and the community exposed them.

Here is the documentary in English https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sx2YmSXDy8

Secondly, this wiki article contains various views, including those of Western scholars, so it is quite an okay source for someone outside of Eastern-European and Russian background to get a quick information on bombings in Russia in 1999.

496 - O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

So why don't you investigate the origin of the quote before posting it ? Is your belief in the flat earth theory based on the same populism as the Internet quotes?

Faith

As long as you do not claim it is attributed to someone, when in fact its not.

So why don't you investigate the origin of the quote before posting it ? Is your belief in the flat earth theory based on the same populism as the Internet quotes?

Peace,
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. - Garfield http//www.pic4ever.com/images/25r30wi.gif
Better? Author of the quote means nothing to me, the quote speaks volumes.

Tell me, would you have said the same thing if I didn't include the author? Ponder over that. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/34y5mvr.gif

Secondly, this wiki article contains various views, including those of Western scholars, so it is quite an okay source for someone outside of Eastern-European and Russian background to get a quick information on bombings in Russia in 1999.

an okay source = Facts? Where did you acquire this knowledge? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/298.gif

Makaveli

Tell me, would you have said the same thing if I didn't include the author? Ponder over that. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/34y5mvr.gif

Yeah, because you don't know the context of the quote, you don't know who said it, perhaps Hitler or Goebbels, in fact this quote is often attributed to them, and you don't know why was it said. As I said, the flat earth theory became popular probably by the same means how famous propagandists brainwashed masses and used the same technique, which is quite described in the quote you used.

an okay source = Facts? Where did you acquire this knowledge? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/298.gif

Read my post again and do your own research, there are plenty of facts.

Faith

Yeah, because you don't know the context of the quote, you don't know who said it, perhaps Hitler or Goebbels, in fact this quote is often attributed to them, and you don't know why was it said. As I said, the flat earth theory became popular probably by the same means how famous propagandists brainwashed masses and used the same technique, which is quite described in the quote you used.

Peace,
So if I state a quote, it has to conform with the author's beliefs? No thanks, this is me stating it for MY reasons. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/gen152.gif

5338 - None can carry the burdens of another.

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
So if I state a quote, it has to conform with the author's beliefs? No thanks, this is me stating it for MY reasons. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/gen152.gif

You can say it in your own words, otherwise you are just chasing popular misquotes to make it look like as if it is something relevant.

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Okay, a guy who either has a degree in physics or has seen the ice wall and the edge of the world says the Earth is flat . Whatever. This thread is dedicated to Sam Gerran's interpretation of 434, if you want to start a thread on the flat Earth theory please do so and tell me why exactly the Earth is flat. And there we can have a discussion, you are free to do so. I just don't want this thread to be buried under unrelated posts.

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

Faith

You can say it in your own words, otherwise you are just chasing popular misquotes to make it look like as if it is something relevant.

Peace,
If it isn't a popular quote, then it's irrelevant? Try reasoning. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/1657.gif

Okay, a guy who either has a degree in physics or has seen the ice wall and the edge of the world says the Earth is flat . Whatever. This thread is dedicated to Sam Gerran's interpretation of 434, if you want to start a thread on the flat Earth theory please do so and tell me why exactly the Earth is flat. And there we can have a discussion, you are free to do so. I just don't want this thread to be buried under unrelated posts.

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

He belives in chemtrails conspiracy, flat earth and many other opinions, which oppose official stances on some events. This is not to critisize Sam, but just to point out what kind of person he is.

You brought up the flat earth yourself.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/no.gif

6712 - As for those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, they have attained forgiveness and a great reward.
God will expose the plotters, and the signs are clear.

Without a globe earth circling the sun through the far reaches of space, we do not have the BIG BANG.
Without the Big Bang, we do not have EVOLUTION.
Without evolution, we are more likely to accept creation as an act of intelligent design by a DIVINE CREATOR.

Earth is flat, brother. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
If it isn't a popular quote, then it's irrelevant? Try reasoning. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/1657.gif

No, you just make it look like relevant by adding Vladimir Lenin, without any previous research whatsoever. I remember when I was following Muslims and people used to quote fake hadiths on women tears and how God counts them. Even to my ears I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Your quote has nothing to do with proof of flath Earth. In fact, it only proves how theories like flat Earth arise = they are propagated on the Internet and once enough people believe these dubious claims it automatically becomes a miracle or 'truth' for them, because they believe if they unite while believing it, it automatically becomes true.

https//ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5

You brought up the flat earth yourself.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/no.gif

So? It was relevant because we discussed views of Gerrans. And Gerrans is one of those people for whom it is enough to hear some random talk in the convincing tone to believe something.

Faith

No, you just make it look like relevant by adding Vladimir Lenin, without any previous research whatsoever. I remember when I was following Muslims and people used to quote fake hadiths on women tears and how God counts them. Even to my ears I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Your quote has nothing to do with proof of flath Earth. In fact, it only proves how theories like flat Earth arise = they are propagated on the Internet and once enough people believe these dubious claims it automatically becomes a miracle or 'truth' for them, because they believe if they unite while believing it, it automatically becomes true.

https//ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5

So? It was relevant because we discussed views of Gerrans. And Gerrans is one of those people for whom it is enough to hear some random talk in the convincing tone to believe something.

Peace,
This is how my mind works regarding this quote. "If Vladimir Lenin has said that, then he speaks the truth." That quote can be said about anything e.g. How most muslims are being deceived by hadiths. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif
You speak of research, yet go on to say

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

You like to research on topics that interest you but ignore other logical matters? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/nocomment.gif

I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Man made history doesn't interest me, only the Qur'an's history. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif