Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.

imrankhawaja

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

exactly ... peace

just wanted you to answer these questions if you can

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608757.msg393695#msg393695

interestingly wakas also asked four similar questions from one of the flat earth expert pazazu and he run like zebera lol

and there are more than enough flat earth threads why not carry a discussion there ..

Makaveli

You like to research on topics that interest you but ignore other logical matters? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/nocomment.gif

Citing random quotes has nothing to do with logic. You are just desperately trying to defend your point, but it is clear a fancy quote is enough for you to make a point as long as its content is relevant to you, without even looking at the source of the quote or its context. In case the quote is a reference to the fascisting propagandist such as Goebbels, then how can you be sure that the modern FET movement was not created by the same means?

Regarding the logic, one definition of logic, which comes to mind is "interrelation or sequence of facts or events". You said, for instance

Without a globe earth circling the sun through the far reaches of space, we do not have the BIG BANG.
Without the Big Bang, we do not have EVOLUTION.
Without evolution, we are more likely to accept creation as an act of intelligent design by a DIVINE CREATOR.

Excuse me? Just what?!? We would not have scientific theories if the Earth was proved to be stationary? Scientific observations were around in any civilization. Even early Muslim scholars, notably Ibn Sina and al-Razi were scientists. And how evolution is even related to the big bang? Evolution i.e. how organisms change over time have nothing to do with the process of Creation of living organism. If God created Universe by the means of big bang, that is all right, but it has nothing to do with stationary Earth. You are not being consistent.

Faith

exactly ... peace

just wanted you to answer these questions if you can

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608757.msg393695#msg393695

interestingly wakas also asked four similar questions from one of the flat earth expert pazazu and he run like zebera lol

and there are more than enough flat earth threads why not carry a discussion there ..

Peace,
Your questions regarding flat earth are similar to the hadithers who go on to ask about how they'd need to pray if not for hadiths, and all the other questions surrounding their bemused faces. You mentioned flat earth before me, take your own advice before advicing others, eh?

Citing random quotes has nothing to do with logic. You are just desperately trying to defend your point, but it is clear a fancy quote is enough for you to make a point as long as its content is relevant to you, without even looking at the source of the quote or its context. In case the quote is a reference to the fascisting propagandist such as Goebbels, then how can you be sure that the modern FET movement was not created by the same means?

Peace,
As long as its content is relevant to my reasons, yeah. You have an issue with that? I don't care for the source because I know its source cannot be proven as a fact, unlike you.. who believes in wikipedia sources. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/3110.gif

Excuse me? Just what?!? We would not have scientific theories if the Earth was proved to be stationary? Scientific observations were around in any civilization. Even early Muslim scholars, notably Ibn Sina and al-Razi were scientists. And how evolution is even related to the big bang? Evolution i.e. how organisms change over time have nothing to do with the process of Creation of living organism. If God created Universe by the means of big bang, that is all right, but it has nothing to do with stationary Earth. You are not being consistent.

Thought you had no clue on the subject?
The muslim scholars you mentioned, I don't care for either. I cannot uphold what I have no knowledge of.
Maybe you should tread carefully on who's sources you read from outside of the Qur'an. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

As long as its content is relevant to my reasons, yeah. You have an issue with that? I don't care for the source because I know its source cannot be proven as a fact, unlike you.. who believes in wikipedia sources. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/3110.gif

Please provide a single proof of where I said I believe wikipedia sources. What I said, however, is that wikipedia is a good place to start, as long as you want and if you don't want to have more information on the mentioned events, why even bother mentioning it? And you can also use sources which wikipedia article refers to.

The muslim scholars you mentioned, I don't care for either. I cannot uphold what I have no knowledge of.

Then why do you state the Earth is flat, without any knowledge besides the talks around the FET community? As for the Muslim scientists , I say Muslim because these guys were around the Golden Muslim Age. And some of their works, including Al-Qanun fi t-Tibb I have read . It is always nice to see how they addressed medicine back then. What is wrong with reading and expanding your worldview ?

Maybe you should tread carefully on who's sources you read from outside of the Qur'an. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

I actually do, by checking the sources. Why do you think I've brought up the issue with random quotes in the first place? Because this mechanism works the same way any propaganda does, including spread of hadiths. As long as people lack the critical thinking, they will believe anything as long as it sounds fancy to them.

Faith

Please provide a single proof of where I said I believe wikipedia sources. What I said, however, is that wikipedia is a good place to start, as long as you want and if you don't want to have more information on the mentioned events, why even bother mentioning it? And you can also use sources which wikipedia article refers to.

Peace,
You didn't particularly say it, but it showed from your passion regarding Putin's crimes in which you had no knowledge of except from your external readings. Citing wikipedia as if that'd back your claims.

Then why do you state the Earth is flat, without any knowledge besides the talks around the FET community? As for the Muslim scholars, I say Muslim because these guys were around the Golden Muslim Age. And some of their works, including Al-Qanun fi t-Tibb I have read . It is always nice to see how they addressed medicine back then. What is wrong with reading and expanding your worldview ?

I actually do, by checking the sources. Why do you think I've brought up the issue with random quotes in the first place? Because this mechanism works the same way any propaganda does, including spread of hadiths. As long as people lack the critical thinking, they will believe anything as long as it sounds fancy to them.

Actually, I see the flat horizon through my own EYES. Are you going to tell me my eyes are flawed now?
Your claims of Putin's crimes are dubious too if I must say. There's nothing you can say to prove his crimes.
Seems like you're not concerned towards God of these logical facts. You could still embark on this journey to seeking the truth, but only God can attest to that.
Because of that mechanism? Just like how you lack the critical thinking in trusting your sources. You still can't answer on how that quote would harm anyone, your comparison for hadiths has no correlation to a simple quote. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/4hu5109.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
You didn't particularly say it, but it showed from your passion regarding Putin's crimes in which you had no knowledge of except from your external readings. Citing wikipedia as if that'd back your claims.

Your claims of Putin's crimes are dubious too if I must say. There's nothing you can say to prove his crimes.

That is seldom an argument. You write because you want to write something without any reasoning? I said wikipedia is a good place to start. I've also added a documentary of bombings in 1999, which is factural and convincing enough. And which you probably did not even watch. Plus I probably know more about power and corruption in Russia to claim certain things. He was the director of FSB in 1998 and for the most of his career he was strongly associated with this criminal organization. The bombings in September 1999 were an obvious excuse to penetrate Chechnya for the second Chechen war, which started in October 1999.

Regarding the knowledge, that is true, I do not have access to some knowledge, because I am not there when bombings and evil plots are made. But it does not exclude reasoning, search for the facts and research. But at least I have reliable information to back up my claims, which FET followers barely do.

Actually, I see the flat horizon through my own EYES. Are you going to tell me my eyes are flawed now?

Oreally'? I too see the flat horizon, while standing on the ground... This paper gives some overview of curvature http//thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf

Because of that mechanism? Just like how you lack the critical thinking in trusting your sources. You still can't answer on how that quote would harm anyone, your comparison for hadiths has no correlation to a simple quote. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/4hu5109.gif

It is actually quite correlated. By blindly accepting a quote with an added reference to Lenin you act the same way as hadith believers do when they are presented with fancy stories with dubious authorship.

Faith

Regarding the knowledge, that is true, I do not have access to some knowledge, because I am not there when bombings and evil plots are made. But it does not exclude reasoning, search for the facts and research. But at least I have reliable information to back up my claims, which TEF followers barely do.

Oreally'? I too see the flat horizon, while standing on the ground... This paper gives some overview of curvature http//thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf

It is actually quite correlated. By blindly accepting a quote with an added reference to Lenin you act the same way as hadith believers do when they are presented with fancy stories with dubious authorship.

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif
You have nothing except man made science research.
Math is a human construct. It proves nothing.
God blesses humans with blessings and wisdom, yet they boastfully place their achievements on their doings. They are nothing without God's blessings and wisdom.
"This paper gives some overview of curvature" So does my toiletpaper. Nothing but man made inventions.

Makaveli

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif
You have nothing except man made science research.
Math is a human construct. It proves nothing.
God blesses humans with blessings and wisdom, yet they boastfully place their achievements on their doings. They are nothing without God's blessings and wisdom.
"This paper gives some overview of curvature" So does my toiletpaper. Nothing but man made inventions.

Consistency and hard work are greater than blah-blah. The following verse comes to mind 919. These who prefer an easy life are not the same as those who believe in the Last Day and strive in the cause of God. Talking is easier than doing math.

People invest years into math and physics. In terms of the flat Earth theory, it took me few days to understand their primary arguments, it was easy. But it did not convince me enough, given the overwhelming counter-information. Even now all you can provide is the horizon you see, nothing specific. I am not a physicist myself, but I used to discuss flat earth issue with a person who is, and he wasn't my opponent, in fact he is a friend of me. Scientific talk is not equal to civik discussion.

This thread has already deviated from its initial goal, please refer to the respective flat earth threads, and if you can convince me that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. Or, in case during my lifetime I will discover something which will make me realize that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. I have nothing against the Earth being flat, but the available pseudo-science talk around it does not convince me.

Faith

Consistency and hard work are greater than blah-blah. The following verse comes to mind 919. These who prefer an easy life are not the same as those who believe in the Last Day and strive in the cause of God. Talking is easier than doing math.

People invest years into math and physics. In terms of the flat Earth theory, it took me few days to understand their primary arguments, it was easy. But it did not convince me enough, given the overwhelming counter-information. Even now all you can provide is the horizon you see, nothing specific. I am not a physicist myself, but I used to discuss flat earth issue with a person who is, and he wasn't my opponent, in fact he is a friend of me. Scientific talk is not equal to civik discussion.

This thread has already deviated from its initial goal, please refer to the respective flat earth threads, and if you can convince me that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. Or, in case during my lifetime I will discover something which will make me realize that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. I have nothing against the Earth being flat, but the available pseudo-science talk around it does not convince me.

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Believe you me, my goal is not to convince you of anything. The Guidance can only come from God.
8818 And to the sky, how was it raised?
8819 And to the mountains, how were they set?
8820 And to the land, how was it flattened?
8821 So remind, for you are but a reminder.

My theories don't come from man made research, but of God's words. God has perfected His creations, yet we look to Science authority. Photos can be altered.
0482 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

So what if people invest years into maths and physics. If they don't believe, nada. Except if God wills.
4701 Those who rejected and repelled from the path of God, He will mislead their works.

You're heavily invested into science, we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
0621 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

http//www.pic4ever.com/images/shake2.gif

Makaveli

What do you base your assumptions on? Simply because I disagree with the FET movement I am automatically pro-science? Flatenning and spreading in the Quran does not necessarily mean the Earth itself is flat. But the Quran also says about the stars (1612). And the flatearthers? They think there is no space and we live under the dome ;D

imrankhawaja

Peace,
Your questions regarding flat earth are similar to the hadithers who go on to ask about how they'd need to pray if not for hadiths, and all the other questions surrounding their bemused faces. You mentioned flat earth before me, take your own advice before advicing others, eh?

guys one more person is unable to answer those questions.. rotfl tempt yay police

Faith

What do you base your assumptions on? Simply because I disagree with the FET movement I am automatically pro-science? Flatenning and spreading in the Quran does not necessarily mean the Earth itself is flat. But the Quran also says about the stars (1612). And the flatearthers? They think there is no space and we live under the dome ;D

Peace,
Go find someone with a degree in physics to convince you, as that is your wish.
Verse 697 explains its use for us.
0697 And He is the One who made for you the stars, to guide you by them in the darkness of the land and the sea. We have explained the signs to a people who know.
So, where is this space that you refer to? Does your mind see "space" next to the land and sea? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/23emu.gif

5533 O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.
5534 So which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?
5535 He sends against both of you projectiles of fire, and of copper; so you will not succeed.

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

huruf

Obviously, earth is not flat, there are the mountains which make it impossible that the earth should be alled flat. Flat is the water surfaces, if one wants to look at them that way.

I find it arrogant that anybody attempts to close an argument by stating as if he or she were God It is so.

Fine, an opinion, nothing more and no matter how many times the person who speks so says that that is God's word, it is still his or her word. Nothing else. Merely an opinion.

So better support opinions with good arguments and not with sentences which not even God employs with such arrogance, which obviously in God it would not be arrogance but a statement of fact. He can, men can't.

Salaam

Makaveli

What is funny tin foil flatearthers, including gerrans is that they put an emphasis on conspiracy without any methodological common sense. For intance, when I say government are criminals I have tons of personal experience and reliable information to sum up my argument, and I do not consider it a conspiracy, because they do not even hide that they are criminals whose job is to manipulate the blind masses.

All right, back to Mr. "I have no time for personal theories" Garrans.

With tinfoilers that is another story. I have just read gerrans's interpretation of 5533 - 5535. This guy is simply parroting the FES (tin foil flat earth society) argument that NASA is a teleshow which uses green screen. So all these THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of employees, from cleaning ladies to military advisers to engineers to operators and so on, they ALL are there just to conspire and nobody since the 1950's has not yet confessed, i.e. released a single video confession? Not to mention there are space companies in Russia, India and China, and there are a lot of employees too and none yet gave their confession since the beggining of all this? Brilliant bravo

Surely they might use a green screen there and here but obviously that has nothing to do with conspiracy, they are working with public so they want to present the people beautiful picture for their videos. But other than that it is clear that there are expeditions. There are people who reportedly spent 30 mill to go for a private space trip. You want to say they spent 30 mill just for the sake of the show? Why then is he writing a book if that was all for the show ? https//www.amazon.com/Explore-Create-Pursuit-Frontiers-Creative/dp/006228665X

I do not support NASA. Was it my will I would tremendously limit funding for most of space projects because there are more important social projects to invest in. But when I am presented with tinfoil "personal theories" regarding flat Earth and NASA conspriacy I cannot help but admit I am just cyclying around their narrow loop of logic. I personally couldn't care less in case the Earth is flat. In fact, I'd like the flat model even more compared to the sphere, but telling me that it is flat because NASA uses green screen is simply insulting to me because I have to spend time arguing with these tinfoilers.

Pathetic to argue with these people. elektro

good_logic

Why would one want to argue? It is futile for both,back and forth waste of time!

GOD has thrown the truth at falsehood, Truth will prevail regardless of arguments.

Today ,we are only starting ( thanks to "wait,I am also waiting" strong argument of GOD in Qoran) to decipher what Qoran is really saying to us. For example what is "Madda Al Ard"? What is "Yukawwiru Al-Layl Ala Al-Nahar"? What is "...Illa Li-Yaabuduni...!"?....etc

I am going to go off subject here just for few sentences to show that our understanding has got to change if we are sincere about pondering Qoran,here is a basic example

For centuries we were told "Uububu Allah" means serve/ worship( I myself leant towards these for a while!). i.e the rituals? Well they are far far away from the truth of Qoran.
If we ponder Qoran we find all people are "Ibad Al-rahman" and there are different types.

"Wama Khalktu...Illa Li-Yabuduni" Cannot mean serve/ worship GOD, because GOD explains it elsewhere in Qoran as "Sirat Al-Muataquim"

"...Wa Ani Uubuduni, Hada Siratun Muataqueem". I will be short here and get to the meaning of "Sirat Al Muataqueem,which means "right conduct/behaviour/morals" which has to come by our choice from the freedom given by GOD. Remember Shaitan does not give us any freedom,he insists on his way(taghut) .
So GOD is saying I created the Jinn and humans only to give them the freedom of choice .Only to give them the choice of My (GOD s) system "Sirat Al Mustaqueem".

The rites?rituals are "the help needed " to succeed. "Iyaaka Naabudu Wa Iyyaka Nastaiinu" clears the two "Naabudu" means "by our right conduct and "Nastaiinu" means by rituals we seek your help because of our love for GOD and His system.
So "Naabudu" has nothing to do with worship or service or rituals in the context of all the verses in Qoran

GOD willing,I will open a thread to discuss this in detail and many other "misconceptions" that have been fed to us for centuries about GOD s message.
For now I apologise for some off topic here .
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

good_logic

Oh ,we have gone off topic here discussing the shape of the earth.
This young lady has something to say,I said similar about our earth in many topics here
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDSTdZ3Ybtw

This is also futile , not important the shape of the earth. The shape of our "sirat" is very important . Is it "straight"?( Mustaqueem)

GOD bless.
Peace.

Faith

So all these THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of employees, from cleaning ladies to military advisers to engineers to operators and so on, they ALL are there just to conspire and nobody since the 1950's has not yet confessed, i.e. released a single video confession? Not to mention there are space companies in Russia, India and China, and there are a lot of employees too and none yet gave their confession since the beggining of all this? Brilliant bravo

Peace,
Because there are thousands of employees during the space show, eh? There is something called restricted access in an environment like theirs. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion053.gif

20105 And they ask you about the mountains, so say "My Lord will annihilate them completely."
20106 "Then He will leave it as a smooth plain."
20107 "You will not see in it any crookedness or curves."
This perfectly tells you how God will make it evident that the Earth is flat on the Day, by destroying the mountains.

20108 On that Day, they will follow the caller, there is no crookedness to him. And all voices will be humbled for the Almighty, you will not be able to hear except whispers.
There is no crookedness/curvity/unevenness in God's creation.

If you try to say that the Earth is round at present time, and that it'll be flat in the future.. you're suggesting that God has to change His creation of Earth from round to flat.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know.

The large numbers supporting the pseudoscience, will result to nothing.
0745 "The ones who repel from the path of God, and sought to make it crooked; and regarding the Hereafter they were rejecters."
0748 And the people standing on the elevated platform called on men they recognized by their features, they said "What good did your large number do for you, or what you were arrogant for?"

1801 Praise be to God who has sent down the Book to His servant, and He has not made in it any crookedness.
Crookedness of the shape of the earth, but not His Book.. yeah right. No crookedness anywhere in God's creation.

Indeed, Earth is flat. Praise be to God, Lord of the worlds. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/bonheur.gif

Makaveli

Because there are thousands of employees during the space show, eh? There is something called restricted access in an environment like theirs.

What are you talking about? There is not a single industry where workers don't know what is happening on the jobs. Try working somewhere outside of your own home. And again, my concern is still relevant, since the beggining of space projects in late 50's not a single austranaut/military serviceman associated with space projects/workers in the indusry/cleaning ladies/accountants/you name it did CONFESS to the public that they were staging flights all these years.

There is quite a bit of information about the moonlanding hoax and that casts some serious doubts, given the 2001 A Space Odyssey movie which aired just few months before Apollo 11. And given the atmosphere of the Cold War that could be possible . But that does not prove nonexistance of space expeditions as a whole, again where are the confessions of the "stage actors" and thousands of other people involved? There are a lot of confessions of drug dealers who confess not because they are wanted by the police but because of their conscience so that they turn away from this lifestyle and convert to some religion. Where is the conscience, which is still a big factor in our decision-making, of all these NASA 'space actors' over all these years?

Faith

What are you talking about? There is not a single industry where workers don't know what is happening on the jobs. Try working somewhere outside of your own home. And again, my concern is still relevant, since the beggining of space projects in late 50's not a single austranaut/military serviceman associated with space projects/workers in the indusry/cleaning ladies/accountants/you name it did CONFESS to the public that they were staging flights all these years.

There is quite a bit of information about the moonlanding hoax and that casts some serious doubts, given the 2001 A Space Odyssey movie which aired just few months before Apollo 11. And given the atmosphere of the Cold War that could be possible . But that does not prove nonexistance of space expeditions as a whole, again where are the confessions of the "stage actors" and thousands of other people involved? There are a lot of confessions of drug dealers who confess not because they are wanted by the police but because of their conscience so that they turn away from this lifestyle and convert to some religion. Where is the conscience, which is still a big factor in our decision-making, of all these NASA 'space actors' over all these years?

Peace,
You're waiting for a confession? Come on my man, the second an engineer involved in some matter of a space programme comes through, you call it a conspirary theory movement. Be truthful to yourself.

Drug dealers are wanted by the Police/Government. Space programmes such as NASA are backed by the Government and not wanted by the police.
Space folk get praised from most people, drug dealers on the other hand don't. The stigma in being a drug dealer affects their daily life events such as dating etc. The uncertainty of drug dealers being killed during drug exchanges. The consequences are heavy for the drug dealers.
Unleash your determination to seek for the truth. What we've been taught in school isn't always the truth.
Be free.http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion021.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
You're waiting for a confession? Come on my man, the second an engineer involved in some matter of a space programme comes through, you call it a conspirary theory movement. Be truthful to yourself.

Drug dealers are wanted by the Police/Government. Space programmes such as NASA are backed by the Government and not wanted by the police.
Space folk get praised from most people, drug dealers on the other hand don't. The stigma in being a drug dealer affects their daily life events such as dating etc. The uncertainty of drug dealers being killed during drug exchanges. The consequences are heavy for the drug dealers.
Unleash your determination to seek for the truth. What we've been taught in school isn't always the truth.
Be free.http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion021.gif

Nope if that person was actually in space people would listen. They probably would, in such a case, try to present some evidence of him being drunk or whatnot, but people would listen. I would. And there are none of those cases.

Regarding the drug dealers, as I said, there are cases when criminals simply quit their lifestyle for reasons other than threat of being prosecuted, such as their conscience. Or, they can be prosecuted and later quit their lifestyle for good . And later they speak out how awful such lifestyle was. What about austranauts who lost their contracts? Why would not they try to take revenge on NASA and confess?