Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.

Faith

Except not a single proof exists that Lenin actually said it ;D. By stating people believe in round Earth because it is passed from generation to generation you fall into the same trap by attributing random quotes to people that probably never said so, because these quotes are common on the Internet, whereas sources are never referenced. Not to mention the same 'repeated lie' can be attributed to the Flat Earth theory, the same mechanism which started the whole thing.

Peace,
That's not the point, I didn't quote him to provide a proof. The quote itself is pretty understandable. Where's the harm in the quote?
Only those of weak faith are troubled by things that challenge their views. You can't have it both ways. It's either the Qur'an, or science. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/consoling2.gif
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/earthhug.gif http//www.pic4ever.com/images/15.gif

What my personal stance is, there is no good or bad government, they are all opressors, Putin or the US government, it does not matter, they are all criminals to the core. Putin used to blow houses in Moscow in '99 https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings and did countless of other crimes / US government faked 9/11 and did countless of other crimes against humanity including nuclear bombings of peaceful citizens in August of '45.

The same can be said for you when you reference wikipedia. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/sigh.gif

496 - O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
That's not the point, I didn't quote him to provide a proof. The quote itself is pretty understandable. Where's the harm in the quote?

As long as you do not claim it is attributed to someone, when in fact its not.

The same can be said for you when you reference wikipedia. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/sigh.gif

Uum, first of all, wikipedia includes sources and was given as a basic source to acknowledge on this particular event. There is also documentary on how the FSB tried to hide the facts and they several times changed their official position on the issue once it turned out their initial fairytale did not work and the community exposed them.

Here is the documentary in English https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sx2YmSXDy8

Secondly, this wiki article contains various views, including those of Western scholars, so it is quite an okay source for someone outside of Eastern-European and Russian background to get a quick information on bombings in Russia in 1999.

496 - O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

So why don't you investigate the origin of the quote before posting it ? Is your belief in the flat earth theory based on the same populism as the Internet quotes?

Faith

As long as you do not claim it is attributed to someone, when in fact its not.

So why don't you investigate the origin of the quote before posting it ? Is your belief in the flat earth theory based on the same populism as the Internet quotes?

Peace,
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. - Garfield http//www.pic4ever.com/images/25r30wi.gif
Better? Author of the quote means nothing to me, the quote speaks volumes.

Tell me, would you have said the same thing if I didn't include the author? Ponder over that. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/34y5mvr.gif

Secondly, this wiki article contains various views, including those of Western scholars, so it is quite an okay source for someone outside of Eastern-European and Russian background to get a quick information on bombings in Russia in 1999.

an okay source = Facts? Where did you acquire this knowledge? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/298.gif

Makaveli

Tell me, would you have said the same thing if I didn't include the author? Ponder over that. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/34y5mvr.gif

Yeah, because you don't know the context of the quote, you don't know who said it, perhaps Hitler or Goebbels, in fact this quote is often attributed to them, and you don't know why was it said. As I said, the flat earth theory became popular probably by the same means how famous propagandists brainwashed masses and used the same technique, which is quite described in the quote you used.

an okay source = Facts? Where did you acquire this knowledge? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/298.gif

Read my post again and do your own research, there are plenty of facts.

Faith

Yeah, because you don't know the context of the quote, you don't know who said it, perhaps Hitler or Goebbels, in fact this quote is often attributed to them, and you don't know why was it said. As I said, the flat earth theory became popular probably by the same means how famous propagandists brainwashed masses and used the same technique, which is quite described in the quote you used.

Peace,
So if I state a quote, it has to conform with the author's beliefs? No thanks, this is me stating it for MY reasons. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/gen152.gif

5338 - None can carry the burdens of another.

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
So if I state a quote, it has to conform with the author's beliefs? No thanks, this is me stating it for MY reasons. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/gen152.gif

You can say it in your own words, otherwise you are just chasing popular misquotes to make it look like as if it is something relevant.

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Okay, a guy who either has a degree in physics or has seen the ice wall and the edge of the world says the Earth is flat . Whatever. This thread is dedicated to Sam Gerran's interpretation of 434, if you want to start a thread on the flat Earth theory please do so and tell me why exactly the Earth is flat. And there we can have a discussion, you are free to do so. I just don't want this thread to be buried under unrelated posts.

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

Faith

You can say it in your own words, otherwise you are just chasing popular misquotes to make it look like as if it is something relevant.

Peace,
If it isn't a popular quote, then it's irrelevant? Try reasoning. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/1657.gif

Okay, a guy who either has a degree in physics or has seen the ice wall and the edge of the world says the Earth is flat . Whatever. This thread is dedicated to Sam Gerran's interpretation of 434, if you want to start a thread on the flat Earth theory please do so and tell me why exactly the Earth is flat. And there we can have a discussion, you are free to do so. I just don't want this thread to be buried under unrelated posts.

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

He belives in chemtrails conspiracy, flat earth and many other opinions, which oppose official stances on some events. This is not to critisize Sam, but just to point out what kind of person he is.

You brought up the flat earth yourself.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/no.gif

6712 - As for those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, they have attained forgiveness and a great reward.
God will expose the plotters, and the signs are clear.

Without a globe earth circling the sun through the far reaches of space, we do not have the BIG BANG.
Without the Big Bang, we do not have EVOLUTION.
Without evolution, we are more likely to accept creation as an act of intelligent design by a DIVINE CREATOR.

Earth is flat, brother. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
If it isn't a popular quote, then it's irrelevant? Try reasoning. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/1657.gif

No, you just make it look like relevant by adding Vladimir Lenin, without any previous research whatsoever. I remember when I was following Muslims and people used to quote fake hadiths on women tears and how God counts them. Even to my ears I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Your quote has nothing to do with proof of flath Earth. In fact, it only proves how theories like flat Earth arise = they are propagated on the Internet and once enough people believe these dubious claims it automatically becomes a miracle or 'truth' for them, because they believe if they unite while believing it, it automatically becomes true.

https//ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5

You brought up the flat earth yourself.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/no.gif

So? It was relevant because we discussed views of Gerrans. And Gerrans is one of those people for whom it is enough to hear some random talk in the convincing tone to believe something.

Faith

No, you just make it look like relevant by adding Vladimir Lenin, without any previous research whatsoever. I remember when I was following Muslims and people used to quote fake hadiths on women tears and how God counts them. Even to my ears I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Your quote has nothing to do with proof of flath Earth. In fact, it only proves how theories like flat Earth arise = they are propagated on the Internet and once enough people believe these dubious claims it automatically becomes a miracle or 'truth' for them, because they believe if they unite while believing it, it automatically becomes true.

https//ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5

So? It was relevant because we discussed views of Gerrans. And Gerrans is one of those people for whom it is enough to hear some random talk in the convincing tone to believe something.

Peace,
This is how my mind works regarding this quote. "If Vladimir Lenin has said that, then he speaks the truth." That quote can be said about anything e.g. How most muslims are being deceived by hadiths. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif
You speak of research, yet go on to say

P.S. I am not disrespecting flateathers, God knows best, but I won't claim something is wrong or right as long as I do not have a clue on the subject.

You like to research on topics that interest you but ignore other logical matters? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/nocomment.gif

I could see that it was written specifically for contemporary social networks and have no historical or spiritual background, yet the sheep massively quoted it because it sounded cool.

Man made history doesn't interest me, only the Qur'an's history. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

imrankhawaja

Earth is flat. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

exactly ... peace

just wanted you to answer these questions if you can

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608757.msg393695#msg393695

interestingly wakas also asked four similar questions from one of the flat earth expert pazazu and he run like zebera lol

and there are more than enough flat earth threads why not carry a discussion there ..

Makaveli

You like to research on topics that interest you but ignore other logical matters? http//www.pic4ever.com/images/nocomment.gif

Citing random quotes has nothing to do with logic. You are just desperately trying to defend your point, but it is clear a fancy quote is enough for you to make a point as long as its content is relevant to you, without even looking at the source of the quote or its context. In case the quote is a reference to the fascisting propagandist such as Goebbels, then how can you be sure that the modern FET movement was not created by the same means?

Regarding the logic, one definition of logic, which comes to mind is "interrelation or sequence of facts or events". You said, for instance

Without a globe earth circling the sun through the far reaches of space, we do not have the BIG BANG.
Without the Big Bang, we do not have EVOLUTION.
Without evolution, we are more likely to accept creation as an act of intelligent design by a DIVINE CREATOR.

Excuse me? Just what?!? We would not have scientific theories if the Earth was proved to be stationary? Scientific observations were around in any civilization. Even early Muslim scholars, notably Ibn Sina and al-Razi were scientists. And how evolution is even related to the big bang? Evolution i.e. how organisms change over time have nothing to do with the process of Creation of living organism. If God created Universe by the means of big bang, that is all right, but it has nothing to do with stationary Earth. You are not being consistent.

Faith

exactly ... peace

just wanted you to answer these questions if you can

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608757.msg393695#msg393695

interestingly wakas also asked four similar questions from one of the flat earth expert pazazu and he run like zebera lol

and there are more than enough flat earth threads why not carry a discussion there ..

Peace,
Your questions regarding flat earth are similar to the hadithers who go on to ask about how they'd need to pray if not for hadiths, and all the other questions surrounding their bemused faces. You mentioned flat earth before me, take your own advice before advicing others, eh?

Citing random quotes has nothing to do with logic. You are just desperately trying to defend your point, but it is clear a fancy quote is enough for you to make a point as long as its content is relevant to you, without even looking at the source of the quote or its context. In case the quote is a reference to the fascisting propagandist such as Goebbels, then how can you be sure that the modern FET movement was not created by the same means?

Peace,
As long as its content is relevant to my reasons, yeah. You have an issue with that? I don't care for the source because I know its source cannot be proven as a fact, unlike you.. who believes in wikipedia sources. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/3110.gif

Excuse me? Just what?!? We would not have scientific theories if the Earth was proved to be stationary? Scientific observations were around in any civilization. Even early Muslim scholars, notably Ibn Sina and al-Razi were scientists. And how evolution is even related to the big bang? Evolution i.e. how organisms change over time have nothing to do with the process of Creation of living organism. If God created Universe by the means of big bang, that is all right, but it has nothing to do with stationary Earth. You are not being consistent.

Thought you had no clue on the subject?
The muslim scholars you mentioned, I don't care for either. I cannot uphold what I have no knowledge of.
Maybe you should tread carefully on who's sources you read from outside of the Qur'an. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Makaveli

As long as its content is relevant to my reasons, yeah. You have an issue with that? I don't care for the source because I know its source cannot be proven as a fact, unlike you.. who believes in wikipedia sources. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/3110.gif

Please provide a single proof of where I said I believe wikipedia sources. What I said, however, is that wikipedia is a good place to start, as long as you want and if you don't want to have more information on the mentioned events, why even bother mentioning it? And you can also use sources which wikipedia article refers to.

The muslim scholars you mentioned, I don't care for either. I cannot uphold what I have no knowledge of.

Then why do you state the Earth is flat, without any knowledge besides the talks around the FET community? As for the Muslim scientists , I say Muslim because these guys were around the Golden Muslim Age. And some of their works, including Al-Qanun fi t-Tibb I have read . It is always nice to see how they addressed medicine back then. What is wrong with reading and expanding your worldview ?

Maybe you should tread carefully on who's sources you read from outside of the Qur'an. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

I actually do, by checking the sources. Why do you think I've brought up the issue with random quotes in the first place? Because this mechanism works the same way any propaganda does, including spread of hadiths. As long as people lack the critical thinking, they will believe anything as long as it sounds fancy to them.

Faith

Please provide a single proof of where I said I believe wikipedia sources. What I said, however, is that wikipedia is a good place to start, as long as you want and if you don't want to have more information on the mentioned events, why even bother mentioning it? And you can also use sources which wikipedia article refers to.

Peace,
You didn't particularly say it, but it showed from your passion regarding Putin's crimes in which you had no knowledge of except from your external readings. Citing wikipedia as if that'd back your claims.

Then why do you state the Earth is flat, without any knowledge besides the talks around the FET community? As for the Muslim scholars, I say Muslim because these guys were around the Golden Muslim Age. And some of their works, including Al-Qanun fi t-Tibb I have read . It is always nice to see how they addressed medicine back then. What is wrong with reading and expanding your worldview ?

I actually do, by checking the sources. Why do you think I've brought up the issue with random quotes in the first place? Because this mechanism works the same way any propaganda does, including spread of hadiths. As long as people lack the critical thinking, they will believe anything as long as it sounds fancy to them.

Actually, I see the flat horizon through my own EYES. Are you going to tell me my eyes are flawed now?
Your claims of Putin's crimes are dubious too if I must say. There's nothing you can say to prove his crimes.
Seems like you're not concerned towards God of these logical facts. You could still embark on this journey to seeking the truth, but only God can attest to that.
Because of that mechanism? Just like how you lack the critical thinking in trusting your sources. You still can't answer on how that quote would harm anyone, your comparison for hadiths has no correlation to a simple quote. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/4hu5109.gif

Makaveli

Peace,
You didn't particularly say it, but it showed from your passion regarding Putin's crimes in which you had no knowledge of except from your external readings. Citing wikipedia as if that'd back your claims.

Your claims of Putin's crimes are dubious too if I must say. There's nothing you can say to prove his crimes.

That is seldom an argument. You write because you want to write something without any reasoning? I said wikipedia is a good place to start. I've also added a documentary of bombings in 1999, which is factural and convincing enough. And which you probably did not even watch. Plus I probably know more about power and corruption in Russia to claim certain things. He was the director of FSB in 1998 and for the most of his career he was strongly associated with this criminal organization. The bombings in September 1999 were an obvious excuse to penetrate Chechnya for the second Chechen war, which started in October 1999.

Regarding the knowledge, that is true, I do not have access to some knowledge, because I am not there when bombings and evil plots are made. But it does not exclude reasoning, search for the facts and research. But at least I have reliable information to back up my claims, which FET followers barely do.

Actually, I see the flat horizon through my own EYES. Are you going to tell me my eyes are flawed now?

Oreally'? I too see the flat horizon, while standing on the ground... This paper gives some overview of curvature http//thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf

Because of that mechanism? Just like how you lack the critical thinking in trusting your sources. You still can't answer on how that quote would harm anyone, your comparison for hadiths has no correlation to a simple quote. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/4hu5109.gif

It is actually quite correlated. By blindly accepting a quote with an added reference to Lenin you act the same way as hadith believers do when they are presented with fancy stories with dubious authorship.

Faith

Regarding the knowledge, that is true, I do not have access to some knowledge, because I am not there when bombings and evil plots are made. But it does not exclude reasoning, search for the facts and research. But at least I have reliable information to back up my claims, which TEF followers barely do.

Oreally'? I too see the flat horizon, while standing on the ground... This paper gives some overview of curvature http//thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf

It is actually quite correlated. By blindly accepting a quote with an added reference to Lenin you act the same way as hadith believers do when they are presented with fancy stories with dubious authorship.

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif
You have nothing except man made science research.
Math is a human construct. It proves nothing.
God blesses humans with blessings and wisdom, yet they boastfully place their achievements on their doings. They are nothing without God's blessings and wisdom.
"This paper gives some overview of curvature" So does my toiletpaper. Nothing but man made inventions.

Makaveli

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif
You have nothing except man made science research.
Math is a human construct. It proves nothing.
God blesses humans with blessings and wisdom, yet they boastfully place their achievements on their doings. They are nothing without God's blessings and wisdom.
"This paper gives some overview of curvature" So does my toiletpaper. Nothing but man made inventions.

Consistency and hard work are greater than blah-blah. The following verse comes to mind 919. These who prefer an easy life are not the same as those who believe in the Last Day and strive in the cause of God. Talking is easier than doing math.

People invest years into math and physics. In terms of the flat Earth theory, it took me few days to understand their primary arguments, it was easy. But it did not convince me enough, given the overwhelming counter-information. Even now all you can provide is the horizon you see, nothing specific. I am not a physicist myself, but I used to discuss flat earth issue with a person who is, and he wasn't my opponent, in fact he is a friend of me. Scientific talk is not equal to civik discussion.

This thread has already deviated from its initial goal, please refer to the respective flat earth threads, and if you can convince me that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. Or, in case during my lifetime I will discover something which will make me realize that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. I have nothing against the Earth being flat, but the available pseudo-science talk around it does not convince me.

Faith

Consistency and hard work are greater than blah-blah. The following verse comes to mind 919. These who prefer an easy life are not the same as those who believe in the Last Day and strive in the cause of God. Talking is easier than doing math.

People invest years into math and physics. In terms of the flat Earth theory, it took me few days to understand their primary arguments, it was easy. But it did not convince me enough, given the overwhelming counter-information. Even now all you can provide is the horizon you see, nothing specific. I am not a physicist myself, but I used to discuss flat earth issue with a person who is, and he wasn't my opponent, in fact he is a friend of me. Scientific talk is not equal to civik discussion.

This thread has already deviated from its initial goal, please refer to the respective flat earth threads, and if you can convince me that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. Or, in case during my lifetime I will discover something which will make me realize that the Earth is flat, I will gladly accept it. I have nothing against the Earth being flat, but the available pseudo-science talk around it does not convince me.

Peace, http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Believe you me, my goal is not to convince you of anything. The Guidance can only come from God.
8818 And to the sky, how was it raised?
8819 And to the mountains, how were they set?
8820 And to the land, how was it flattened?
8821 So remind, for you are but a reminder.

My theories don't come from man made research, but of God's words. God has perfected His creations, yet we look to Science authority. Photos can be altered.
0482 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

So what if people invest years into maths and physics. If they don't believe, nada. Except if God wills.
4701 Those who rejected and repelled from the path of God, He will mislead their works.

You're heavily invested into science, we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
0621 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

http//www.pic4ever.com/images/shake2.gif

Makaveli

What do you base your assumptions on? Simply because I disagree with the FET movement I am automatically pro-science? Flatenning and spreading in the Quran does not necessarily mean the Earth itself is flat. But the Quran also says about the stars (1612). And the flatearthers? They think there is no space and we live under the dome ;D

imrankhawaja

Peace,
Your questions regarding flat earth are similar to the hadithers who go on to ask about how they'd need to pray if not for hadiths, and all the other questions surrounding their bemused faces. You mentioned flat earth before me, take your own advice before advicing others, eh?

guys one more person is unable to answer those questions.. rotfl tempt yay police