If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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No silly t llo. What is silly is to believe something because somebody tells so that it oh ever so wonderful.
The Qur'an does not need defece lawyers. It defends itself such as it is. You take it as you will but what is worth in Qur'an is not what others say about it but what it says about everything. That is why I blieve it and that is why I think it is from God, not because whoever else says whatever.
Same as someody tells methis is so good, Cervantes or whatever authro wrote it. So I read it and I find it mediocre, what does it help tht it is attributed to such and such?
Same with hadiths. They adscribe them tot he prophet so that can push an agenda. No adscription. Whatever is worth by itself that is what it is worth.
Salaam
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Peace hansolo.
It is me,your friend,silly logic!- You are reading this.
- You are human.
- You need to read/study Qoran.
- Have you attempted to do it.
- You have a smile on your face and you skipped No. 5.
You just checked to see if there is a No. 5. - You laugh at this because you are a fun loving person & there is no No 7 either.
- You are probably going to start again,I mean reading/studying Qoran.
Now that was silly.
Brother,the eyes,ears and brain are given to us to see what is really "silly".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The difference is that those people know where did The Quran came from the story of its creation and story of the man who brought it and why it makes more true to be a book of revelation from God.
Whereas, the Quranists just take the book and say we act as if the islamic history doesn't exists and the hadith doest exist so we dont really care how this book came into being and that it is indeed the book brought my a man named Mohammad.
The question is simple The Quranists can only say The Quran is indeed from God by using circular logic, saying it is so beacause it is written in the book itself. Whereas, the non-Quranists actually know the chain-narration and can back up their belief that this book is the same book that a prophet by the name Mohammad uttered around 14 centuries ago.
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There is also a difference between Islamic history and attributing lies /sayings /hadiths to the prophet.
History of who existed and when is there to be checked. Believe it or not is in reading the contents.
Exactly the same as believing Qoran or hadiths books ( sayings/commands/etc..) are checking/analysing the contents.
Simple really brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Hadith does not prove where the Qur?an came from, who wrote it, what happened after it was written, it is unmitigated conjecture, you can accept the unmitigated conjecture if you like, but that does not prove anything.
Hadith adds new things like prayer, worship, hierarchical religion, sovereigns, allows peadophilia, riba, exploitation, murder, rape, torture and much more, all these things are clearly not in the Qur?an yet are made to be through hadith, if you want to follow hadith then do so, but you cannot follow both the Qur?an and hadith as they are in conflict. Sadly the present translations of the Qur?an are hadithian based and so are extremely corrupt, even the original Arabic text is not as it was originally, largely due to the influence of hadith and invented religions.
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Abdun Nur,
But Quran does say this even according to the free-minds.org translation
533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
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The difference is that those people know where did The Quran came from the story of its creation and story of the man who brought it and why it makes more true to be a book of revelation from God.
Whereas, the Quranists just take the book and say we act as if the islamic history doesn't exists and the hadith doest exist so we dont really care how this book came into being and that it is indeed the book brought my a man named Mohammad.
The question is simple The Quranists can only say The Quran is indeed from God by using circular logic, saying it is so beacause it is written in the book itself. Whereas, the non-Quranists actually know the chain-narration and can back up their belief that this book is the same book that a prophet by the name Mohammad uttered around 14 centuries ago.
You repeat yourself nd you do not seem to know how to read Nobody here has said the he or she believes tht the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so. You hve said nobodyelse.
Do you need to know of the correctnes of a mathematics book to know the author? No you do not. You read the book and you check what it says, whether it checks with itself and whether it checks with your own capcity of logic. If it does, it is correct, even if you do know nor give a damn about who the author is. On the other hand if it does nto check you can cll on the uthor till the frogs grow hair, it will not check. It is as simple as that.
You may need to know who authored something to affirm its correctness or incorrectness because you do not have criteria, you do not trust yourself to make a judgment. Other people do have criteria and do hve judgment, even if you do not give them permission.
Salaam
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There's no such thing as "If we deny". I deny it, you can believe in your hadiths.
None can mislead those guided by God.
Don't let the door hit you on your way out. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion048.gifPeace.
Im reasoning, while people trying to ridicule and act humorous
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You repeat yourself nd you do not seem to know how to read Nobody here has said the he or she believes tht the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so. You hve said nobodyelse.
Do you need to know of the correctnes of a mathematics book to know the author? No you do not. You read the book and you check what it says, whether it checks with itself and whether it checks with your own capcity of logic. If it does, it is correct, even if you do know nor give a damn about who the author is. On the other hand if it does nto check you can cll on the uthor till the frogs grow hair, it will not check. It is as simple as that.
You may need to know who authored something to affirm its correctness or incorrectness because you do not have criteria, you do not trust yourself to make a judgment. Other people do have criteria and do hve judgment, even if you do not give them permission.
Salaam
Well You know, based on your reasoning, I can find a very insightful and intelligent book and just say that based on my own intelligence I find it very intelligent thus it must be from God, the creator and controller of this world.
Or go again into circular reasoning and say it is from the Lord of the Universe because it says in the book so.
Why than The Quran, You think you can't find other intelligne books and claim they are from God?
wow, folks, just wow
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Well You know, based on your reasoning, I can find a very insightful and intelligent book and just say that based on my own intelligence I find it very intelligent thus it must be from God, the creator and controller of this world.
Or go again into circular reasoning and say it is from the Lord of the Universe because it says in the book so.
Why than The Quran, You think you can't find other intelligne books and claim they are from God?
wow, folks, just wow
Those are all your problems, dear Hansi, not my problems, and I have to many useful things to do to try to convince you of anything. You asked something, I answered. As to your last question, ask about another book or whateer you want to ask, I am not going to scan now the whole universe to find for you something that makes you tickle.
Everything is from God, in fact. Only going through other "hands" it is "unGoded". So, no, there nothing very difficult in finding what is from God. The trouble lies in Purifying what is form God from the human additions. In that sense, the Qur'an is pure. There are many pure things when we take them without the trappings. The Qur'n has no trappings, that is why it does not trap to many people, because people like trappings.
Salaam
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Peace -- if divine up to you regardless; see page from MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
https//s2.postimg.org/80gdanptl/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v38-50.jpg
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There is a minority of people who may blindly accept whatever a book said, e.g. author of book claims it is the work of God. However, many will think over this claim, and put it to the test.
See above post and ponder over How does one verify a truth?
This is the same way in which to verify Quran
see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658Can also see http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271968#msg271968Note the above assumes you are a genuine truthseeker and will thus follow up and ponder over the points. I do not think you are sincere, I think you are a troll.
See this thread for the perfect example
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403478#msg403478 -
Thank you very much Wakas for the links, I will study them.
Im not a troll, and if I did come off as one, I was mistaken.
I sincerely try to be as objective as I can, and if I did make mistakes in regards being objective it must have been my limited understanding of something due to my level of advancement at that particular point of time.
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
If one rejects the Hadith (ie. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud), the Tafsir (ie. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi), and the History (ie. al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, al-Waqidi, Ibn Ishaq), then the entire historical context of the Qur'an, along with any proof of Muhammad's existence, is lost.
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
It is what a book says which judges it. Logic is cold but effective.
(if the sectarian interpretation is what it says then there is no reason to give it any attention)
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
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Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cry me a river chump.
God knows.
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/fight.gif
