If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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The difference is that those people know where did The Quran came from the story of its creation and story of the man who brought it and why it makes more true to be a book of revelation from God.
Whereas, the Quranists just take the book and say we act as if the islamic history doesn't exists and the hadith doest exist so we dont really care how this book came into being and that it is indeed the book brought my a man named Mohammad.
The question is simple The Quranists can only say The Quran is indeed from God by using circular logic, saying it is so beacause it is written in the book itself. Whereas, the non-Quranists actually know the chain-narration and can back up their belief that this book is the same book that a prophet by the name Mohammad uttered around 14 centuries ago.
You repeat yourself nd you do not seem to know how to read Nobody here has said the he or she believes tht the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so. You hve said nobodyelse.
Do you need to know of the correctnes of a mathematics book to know the author? No you do not. You read the book and you check what it says, whether it checks with itself and whether it checks with your own capcity of logic. If it does, it is correct, even if you do know nor give a damn about who the author is. On the other hand if it does nto check you can cll on the uthor till the frogs grow hair, it will not check. It is as simple as that.
You may need to know who authored something to affirm its correctness or incorrectness because you do not have criteria, you do not trust yourself to make a judgment. Other people do have criteria and do hve judgment, even if you do not give them permission.
Salaam
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There's no such thing as "If we deny". I deny it, you can believe in your hadiths.
None can mislead those guided by God.
Don't let the door hit you on your way out. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion048.gifPeace.
Im reasoning, while people trying to ridicule and act humorous
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You repeat yourself nd you do not seem to know how to read Nobody here has said the he or she believes tht the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so. You hve said nobodyelse.
Do you need to know of the correctnes of a mathematics book to know the author? No you do not. You read the book and you check what it says, whether it checks with itself and whether it checks with your own capcity of logic. If it does, it is correct, even if you do know nor give a damn about who the author is. On the other hand if it does nto check you can cll on the uthor till the frogs grow hair, it will not check. It is as simple as that.
You may need to know who authored something to affirm its correctness or incorrectness because you do not have criteria, you do not trust yourself to make a judgment. Other people do have criteria and do hve judgment, even if you do not give them permission.
Salaam
Well You know, based on your reasoning, I can find a very insightful and intelligent book and just say that based on my own intelligence I find it very intelligent thus it must be from God, the creator and controller of this world.
Or go again into circular reasoning and say it is from the Lord of the Universe because it says in the book so.
Why than The Quran, You think you can't find other intelligne books and claim they are from God?
wow, folks, just wow
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Well You know, based on your reasoning, I can find a very insightful and intelligent book and just say that based on my own intelligence I find it very intelligent thus it must be from God, the creator and controller of this world.
Or go again into circular reasoning and say it is from the Lord of the Universe because it says in the book so.
Why than The Quran, You think you can't find other intelligne books and claim they are from God?
wow, folks, just wow
Those are all your problems, dear Hansi, not my problems, and I have to many useful things to do to try to convince you of anything. You asked something, I answered. As to your last question, ask about another book or whateer you want to ask, I am not going to scan now the whole universe to find for you something that makes you tickle.
Everything is from God, in fact. Only going through other "hands" it is "unGoded". So, no, there nothing very difficult in finding what is from God. The trouble lies in Purifying what is form God from the human additions. In that sense, the Qur'an is pure. There are many pure things when we take them without the trappings. The Qur'n has no trappings, that is why it does not trap to many people, because people like trappings.
Salaam
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Peace -- if divine up to you regardless; see page from MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
https//s2.postimg.org/80gdanptl/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v38-50.jpg
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There is a minority of people who may blindly accept whatever a book said, e.g. author of book claims it is the work of God. However, many will think over this claim, and put it to the test.
See above post and ponder over How does one verify a truth?
This is the same way in which to verify Quran
see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658Can also see http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271968#msg271968Note the above assumes you are a genuine truthseeker and will thus follow up and ponder over the points. I do not think you are sincere, I think you are a troll.
See this thread for the perfect example
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403478#msg403478 -
Thank you very much Wakas for the links, I will study them.
Im not a troll, and if I did come off as one, I was mistaken.
I sincerely try to be as objective as I can, and if I did make mistakes in regards being objective it must have been my limited understanding of something due to my level of advancement at that particular point of time.
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
If one rejects the Hadith (ie. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud), the Tafsir (ie. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi), and the History (ie. al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, al-Waqidi, Ibn Ishaq), then the entire historical context of the Qur'an, along with any proof of Muhammad's existence, is lost.
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
It is what a book says which judges it. Logic is cold but effective.
(if the sectarian interpretation is what it says then there is no reason to give it any attention)
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
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Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cry me a river chump.
God knows.
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/fight.gif -
Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."Again quoting the Quran, anyways please take some time and think about that verse. Ayah 230 has been the starting point of my doubts against the current interpretation of the Quran and the Arabic language.
Ask yourself, What does a successive authority of God really mean? Who is the successive authority? Adam? If yes, then the Angels were there with him so why would they assume that he'll shed blood and cause corruption? If not Adam but the Human race, then again why would they make such an assumption? If it's Satan, then why would God make him a successive authority? According to these verses if it IS the human race, aren't the Angels right?... All these questions can never be answered because no matter what it won't add up, something will be missing.
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Ask yourself, What does a successive authority of God really mean? Who is the successive authority? Adam? If yes, then the Angels were there with him so why would they assume that he'll shed blood and cause corruption? If not Adam but the Human race, then again why would they make such an assumption? If it's Satan, then why would God make him a successive authority? According to these verses if it IS the human race, aren't the Angels right?... All these questions can never be answered because no matter what it won't add up, something will be missing.
A commentary
"The angels understood the ultimate behavior of the said vicegerent from the words, ?in the earth?.
A vicegerent appointed in the earth would certainly be created from material components; he would necessarily be bestowed with two basic traits of desire and anger; the earth is a place of unceasing struggle and constant confrontation; its resources are limited, its opportunities finite; but the proposed vicegerent's desire would be unlimited, infinite. The condition of the earth and earthly things was hardly reassur?ing.
Its creatures were subjected to ever-continuing deterioration and disintegration; its good was always turning into bad; it was a place where an individual could not live without a group having similar characteristics and traits. Keeping all this in view, the angels at once understood that what Allah intended to create was not only an individual, but a species.
The members of that species would have to live together, cooperating with one another; that is to say, they would have to establish a society, a social order. And with a venture like this, they were bound to cause mischief and to shed blood.
On the other hand, they knew that vicegerency - setting one thing in place of another - was unthinkable unless the vicegerent were a true copy of his predecessor in all the characteristics, traits and intrinsic abilities.
The proposed earthly creature was to be made vicegerent of Allah in the earth. Allah has got for Himself the best names, the sublime attributes; His mercy and power are beyond the comprehension of His creatures; He, in His person, is untouched by any defect; and, in his actions, is free from all kinds of evil and disorder.
How could an earthly vicegerent, with all his defects and deficiencies, represent the majesty and splendor of Allah in the earth? Well, could a lowly creature of earth be a mirror of divine beauty and sublimity?"
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People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Away with you chump.
God knows while you do not.
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion015.gif -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
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Salam/Peace,
If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Do you imagine that people who existed during the time of revelation were all cheerful and happy to accept the Quran? The Quran tells us its own history, and in that history we are told that the majority of recipients rejected, mocked, and ridiculed the Book and its messenger (crazy, magic, poet. etc..).
Most of us accepted the Quran based on the consistency of its message and the soundness of its words - it claimed it was from God and many of us accepted that was indeed its source.
Now, if you need the human element to convince you of the Quran, then perhaps its own proof has not hit you yet....
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
So untrue. The Quran gives us its name(s), it gives us its history, it gives us the reaction of those who received it as well as the messenger...What we know about Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Jospeh, John, Solomon, David, Mary, Lot, Abraham, etc. is all from the detailed Book that gave us their stories to the level which we need to know (no more, no less). That is a historic book par excellence...Silly is to read what the people invented and wrote about Solomon murdering people, or Moses wrestling with God, or Mohammed being a pedophile and a murderer.
I like this version of God and His messengers much more than the version(s) you are looking for.
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Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
Wht valid point? He hands his own judgment on people (you inluded) right and left, even lying, based on his also own opinions on them and does not give a single point to hold his judgment valid or invalid. Just an opinion, his opinion which he seems to consider the only valid one.
Salaam
