If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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Well You know, based on your reasoning, I can find a very insightful and intelligent book and just say that based on my own intelligence I find it very intelligent thus it must be from God, the creator and controller of this world.
Or go again into circular reasoning and say it is from the Lord of the Universe because it says in the book so.
Why than The Quran, You think you can't find other intelligne books and claim they are from God?
wow, folks, just wow
Those are all your problems, dear Hansi, not my problems, and I have to many useful things to do to try to convince you of anything. You asked something, I answered. As to your last question, ask about another book or whateer you want to ask, I am not going to scan now the whole universe to find for you something that makes you tickle.
Everything is from God, in fact. Only going through other "hands" it is "unGoded". So, no, there nothing very difficult in finding what is from God. The trouble lies in Purifying what is form God from the human additions. In that sense, the Qur'an is pure. There are many pure things when we take them without the trappings. The Qur'n has no trappings, that is why it does not trap to many people, because people like trappings.
Salaam
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Peace -- if divine up to you regardless; see page from MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
https//s2.postimg.org/80gdanptl/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v38-50.jpg
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There is a minority of people who may blindly accept whatever a book said, e.g. author of book claims it is the work of God. However, many will think over this claim, and put it to the test.
See above post and ponder over How does one verify a truth?
This is the same way in which to verify Quran
see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658Can also see http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271968#msg271968Note the above assumes you are a genuine truthseeker and will thus follow up and ponder over the points. I do not think you are sincere, I think you are a troll.
See this thread for the perfect example
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403478#msg403478 -
Thank you very much Wakas for the links, I will study them.
Im not a troll, and if I did come off as one, I was mistaken.
I sincerely try to be as objective as I can, and if I did make mistakes in regards being objective it must have been my limited understanding of something due to my level of advancement at that particular point of time.
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
If one rejects the Hadith (ie. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud), the Tafsir (ie. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi), and the History (ie. al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, al-Waqidi, Ibn Ishaq), then the entire historical context of the Qur'an, along with any proof of Muhammad's existence, is lost.
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
It is what a book says which judges it. Logic is cold but effective.
(if the sectarian interpretation is what it says then there is no reason to give it any attention)
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
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Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!
Cry me a river chump.
God knows.
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/fight.gif -
Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."Again quoting the Quran, anyways please take some time and think about that verse. Ayah 230 has been the starting point of my doubts against the current interpretation of the Quran and the Arabic language.
Ask yourself, What does a successive authority of God really mean? Who is the successive authority? Adam? If yes, then the Angels were there with him so why would they assume that he'll shed blood and cause corruption? If not Adam but the Human race, then again why would they make such an assumption? If it's Satan, then why would God make him a successive authority? According to these verses if it IS the human race, aren't the Angels right?... All these questions can never be answered because no matter what it won't add up, something will be missing.
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Ask yourself, What does a successive authority of God really mean? Who is the successive authority? Adam? If yes, then the Angels were there with him so why would they assume that he'll shed blood and cause corruption? If not Adam but the Human race, then again why would they make such an assumption? If it's Satan, then why would God make him a successive authority? According to these verses if it IS the human race, aren't the Angels right?... All these questions can never be answered because no matter what it won't add up, something will be missing.
A commentary
"The angels understood the ultimate behavior of the said vicegerent from the words, ?in the earth?.
A vicegerent appointed in the earth would certainly be created from material components; he would necessarily be bestowed with two basic traits of desire and anger; the earth is a place of unceasing struggle and constant confrontation; its resources are limited, its opportunities finite; but the proposed vicegerent's desire would be unlimited, infinite. The condition of the earth and earthly things was hardly reassur?ing.
Its creatures were subjected to ever-continuing deterioration and disintegration; its good was always turning into bad; it was a place where an individual could not live without a group having similar characteristics and traits. Keeping all this in view, the angels at once understood that what Allah intended to create was not only an individual, but a species.
The members of that species would have to live together, cooperating with one another; that is to say, they would have to establish a society, a social order. And with a venture like this, they were bound to cause mischief and to shed blood.
On the other hand, they knew that vicegerency - setting one thing in place of another - was unthinkable unless the vicegerent were a true copy of his predecessor in all the characteristics, traits and intrinsic abilities.
The proposed earthly creature was to be made vicegerent of Allah in the earth. Allah has got for Himself the best names, the sublime attributes; His mercy and power are beyond the comprehension of His creatures; He, in His person, is untouched by any defect; and, in his actions, is free from all kinds of evil and disorder.
How could an earthly vicegerent, with all his defects and deficiencies, represent the majesty and splendor of Allah in the earth? Well, could a lowly creature of earth be a mirror of divine beauty and sublimity?"
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People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Away with you chump.
God knows while you do not.
http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion015.gif -
People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
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Salam/Peace,
If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Do you imagine that people who existed during the time of revelation were all cheerful and happy to accept the Quran? The Quran tells us its own history, and in that history we are told that the majority of recipients rejected, mocked, and ridiculed the Book and its messenger (crazy, magic, poet. etc..).
Most of us accepted the Quran based on the consistency of its message and the soundness of its words - it claimed it was from God and many of us accepted that was indeed its source.
Now, if you need the human element to convince you of the Quran, then perhaps its own proof has not hit you yet....
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
So untrue. The Quran gives us its name(s), it gives us its history, it gives us the reaction of those who received it as well as the messenger...What we know about Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Jospeh, John, Solomon, David, Mary, Lot, Abraham, etc. is all from the detailed Book that gave us their stories to the level which we need to know (no more, no less). That is a historic book par excellence...Silly is to read what the people invented and wrote about Solomon murdering people, or Moses wrestling with God, or Mohammed being a pedophile and a murderer.
I like this version of God and His messengers much more than the version(s) you are looking for.
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Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
Wht valid point? He hands his own judgment on people (you inluded) right and left, even lying, based on his also own opinions on them and does not give a single point to hold his judgment valid or invalid. Just an opinion, his opinion which he seems to consider the only valid one.
Salaam
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Peace Rekkd.
You have already established that no one here can give you an answer. So what do you do?
I have a request, if you do not mind. Please ,when you find those /or a person who gives you your answer ,come back and shared it with us.
I sincerely wish and strongly hope that you find an answer.
Your answer that you will be certain about. I mean you will not have a single issue nor any more questions that will cross your mind.Keep searching brother. Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Rekkd.
You have already established that no one here can give you an answer. So what do you do?
I have a request, if you do not mind. Please ,when you find those /or a person who gives you your answer ,come back and shared it with us.
I sincerely wish and strongly hope that you find an answer.
Your answer that you will be certain about. I mean you will not have a single issue nor any more questions that will cross your mind.Keep searching brother. Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I don't think anyone will be giving me an answer in this lifetime. I have to figure it out myself, I have reached this point by always questioning my beliefs and what I've been told by others.
Yes I do like to listen to other points of view and learn more from others, no matter who! 2 weeks ago I was at a McDonalds eating and this homeless man full of anger starts talking to me in Arabic, as I look Arab. He's complaining about life, the jews, the states, etc... At then I asked him "Why do you think we are here", ofc his answer was to worship Allah.. I kept asking why and how and I got the same answers every muslim knows. What I'm trying to say here is I listen to everyone, I don't care if that person is a professor, a president, a scholar or a homeless uneducated man. I like to understand people, I'm very curious about everything and I ask myself a million questions a day.
Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.
We are so attached to this life, our prayers are worldly, our image of heaven is wordly, our fears of punishment are wordly. All we think about are our finances, relationships, family, career, desires.... Meaningless. Yet our spiritual side longs for something that we just don't know what it is, that's why you have all these religions that were created by man to fill that gap. Sadly people believed whatever they were told.
God created this world with one simple rule! That everything happens for a reason. I know it's very clich? but look at the physical world, it all seems like a perfect masterpiece. And the method to understand our world is through science thus our creator's way of thinking is that there is a logical beneficial reason for our creation or we are part of a process for something to come. So worshipping or serving or that garbage is not the answer, as it is not logical and results to nothing for God.
Currently that's where I'm at right now, I don't believe in anything specifically but I do believe in a creator as it's the only logical answer. I will gladly share my answer if I ever find it, but no matter what, I think there will always be unanswered questions.
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Much more important than answers is the battles that we face everyday, and their outcome. And this never-ending repeating process until you start to win!!
People can believe in whatever suits them, but what determines who we are is how we come to being, something we know and experience with our own self with God as the witness. The rest is just beating around the wrong bush. -
Peace there can be no history or individuals in a guide that is timeless, that would be insane, all individuals and history that's claimed in translations is all due to the corruptions invested into the guide over the centuries, even the individual named Muhammed would not be relevant or mentioned, to do so would generate idol worship, it therefore is extremely unlikely any individual named Muhammed wrote the qur'an, and is much much more likely it was written as a collective effort, it is known the trivium was always the companion book of the qur'an until Islam was completely defeated around 1000 years ago, and the guide would be based completely upon the reasoned investigation of reality.
For the first 200 years Islam spread as an anarchic community model across at least a third of the Earth, rendering all hierarchies and sovereigns obsolete, no war or violence just establishing the anarchic models, this in turn removed riba, and riba was correctly understood originally as the guide would have explained it, this understanding is no longer applied or widely known, the old sovereigns still had the extorted wealth of old and used that wealth to create hadith, they then corrupted the guide with that tool, inventing the religion of Islam, and so removing the guide almost completely.
Can you understand the "RELIGION" of Islam without hadith, "no", as hadith is the religion of Islam, however Islam was never intended as a religion.
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Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I've been a forum member for a while and my experience of people similar to yourself is the following
- they have no clue what evidence/answer they are looking for, hence will not recognise it even if its staring them in the face
- are not actually genuinely seeking the truth, and only to validate their pre-existing beliefs (or lack thereof)
- still look at Quran through the lens of tradition hence are blinded to what it's saying
- remain silent when challenged/questioned
I may be wrong of course.
